Bluffing a music geek
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52037
Printed Date: January 16 2025 at 01:02
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Topic: Bluffing a music geek
Posted By: debrewguy
Subject: Bluffing a music geek
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 07:13
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As quoted from Wired "Ever been smacked down by a friend with an encyclopedic knowledge of music? You can fight back without really having a clue. — David Thorpe Adopt obscure tastes. So obscure they're nonexistent. Tell your friend you're a big fan of the Egyptologists or some other made-up group. (What's he gonna say — "I've heard of every band, and that's not one of them"?) If he can't get a handle on your palate, your opinions are unimpeachable. Answer questions with questions. "I think I've heard of Flop. Who was their manager?" Checkmate. It's surely not your fault this so-called fan can't provide enough background info to help you pluck Flop from your mental jukebox. Use the magic words. To paint bands you know nothing about with broad, meaningless strokes, you need only two adjectives: overrated and underrated. With careful use, you can position yourself as a sophisticated critic of criticism, a qualified judge of not just music but the canon itself. Leg-sweep your foes with baffling pronouncements. The Beatles? Underrated."
Now, out to the PA world of posts to practice these anti music snob tricks. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Replies:
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 08:31
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Yawn! You're ongoing antisnobbery project is just about showing of how incredibly openminded you think you are. Most people here has just as much, or more of an eclectic taste in music than yourself, so what's the point?
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Statutory-Mike
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 08:38
The beatles. Overrated.  ------------- 
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 09:45
| There are actually several bands named "The Beatles", which one are you talking about? I believe the Polish avant-garde jazz group with Czeslaw L. Borowczyk on the drums is the most accomplished one of the three I know. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 18:38
So, you're saying you're pro-snobbery ?  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Rocktopus wrote:Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 18:41
I would be more likely to claim empty-mindedness ! As far as eclectic, I prefer to say I like a whole lot of different music, after which I humbly deny others' complimenting me on my wider tastes in music. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 19:40
Not as much as an anti-antisnob. Snobbery-accusations are often used by people who's afraid/hates everyting they don't understand. People like that are the real problem. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 20:00
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Wired is a hipster garbage magazine.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 20:24
I know. Even the term "hipster" has become a tag for lost folks trying to be cool. Oh look, my wardrobe is a combination of 50s baby doll dresses, 70s punk Martens boots, nerd glasses, and renaissance french wigs ! Kinda like reading Rolling Stone to find out about good music  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 20:55
Rocky, the only thing I don't care for is this " I say this music/painting/film is superior because of reason X, and the reason why reason X indicates this music/painting/film is superior is because I say reason X is the reason why this music/painting/film is superior. Thus reason X justifies the claim that this music/painting/film is superior". To summarize - It is so, 'cause I said so. I have never said that preferring complex or obscure music is snobbish. Stating that the tastes and preferences that one just happens to have are objective measures of quality, or worse, of superiority , that is snobbish. You'll find this in all genres.Some Punk and some rock n roll fans claim that simplicity and rawness are more "real" and thus are more "artistic" than overly thought out and complex compositions. IN some cases, maybe. But not always. Some country and folk music fans will say that their genres are superior because the songs tell stories that people can relate to. I guess the blues singers deal in metaphysics, eh. So it is not the case of what you like or don't like and the reasons you give. It is when you proclaim your subjective opinion to be an objective determinant of what musical genre or band to be better than others. All art appreciation is subjective. Even what is considered to be "art". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Therefore, if you find beauty in RIO, then RIO holds qualities, elements that you find enjoyable. This does not make you more knowledgeable re : music. It does not make you elitist. It just means that this genre of music holds qualities that you like. As for my musical tastes, well, yes , they are eclectic. But then, I'm a music lover. I am open to new music. But I also recognize some hesitancy towards some music genres due to stereotypes. I love Univers Zero, but I have not found other RIO, or at least not too many to be of interest to me. I do give it a listen if it comes up on radio (CBC Radio Two, evenings after 10pm AST. They played a piece from Fred Frith and another musician last week. Listened to it, found it interesting, but not enough to go out and buy it). I am still getting into Dun, but the MP3 samples found at PA from other Zeuhl bands have not really caught my ear. I even spent one evening listening to MP3s from PA's Krautrock list while surfing the web. I didn't find it unbearable, and don't consider it to have been a waste of time simply because none made want to go out and buy it. I listened to see if there was something there for me. I prefer old time country , Johnny Cash, other 'rockabilly cats, and those more rooted in the rural traditions to today's contemporary country (or corporate country, if you will). But through Bob Lefsetz' newsletter, I have found more than a few songs that really do stand out from artist like Kenny Chesney and others who are found on today's country charts. I like some punk rock bands. But not all. I find that many sound-alike. But then, a lot of the hard rock, heavy metal, and even prog that I listen to have been accused of that by the non-initiated (more mellotron, more, more) But I've never ever ever ever ever claimed that any genre of music was superior to any other. I have acted as Devil's Advocate for genres too often derided here at PA. Many here have played the same role elsewhere for prog. But again, there is a difference between stating your preferences and the reasons why , and proclaiming those preferences as being objective indicators of the inherent superiority of that which you prefer. O.K. ... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 23:20
Is this in the magazine? If it's from the new one I'm going to have to dig through it.
I always find plenty of cool stuff in that magazine. I'm surprised I've missed this one, considering the music fan I am. ------------- 
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 03:31
I love antagonizing snobs, especially metal elitists! Nothing like watching the agony on their face as you claim you didn't have time to listen to the newest brutal death metal band because you were too busy listening to The Decemberists. 
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 04:08
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Wired is reprinting old Something Awful articles now? That's pretty pathetic.
I was a big fan of Your Band Sucks, it's a shame that he stopped writing it (and now there is no reason to go to SA anymore). ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 04:44
I do, well not as much the genres in itself. I don't think its snobbish to state that Beethoven is superior to DJ Bobo. Sometimes its a little more difficult to tell, but I'm no culture relativist. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 14:38
anti music snob tricks or anti music snob tricks?  |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 14:42
I've think I've heard of DJ Bobo. What was his manager's name?
 Actually, I'm going to pass this article out to my friends. They'll get a huge kick out of it, as I am a self-proclaimed music snob. Although, the problem with my friends using the second method against me, is there's a pretty good chance I may know who the manager is. Cause I have no life.  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 15:26
| I think I've heard of Beethoven. What was his manager's name? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 16:44
OK You know back in the day (late '70's) all the prog music fans I was acquainted with were more into playing the game of turning each other on to new obscure artists that each of us had discovered. But hey, no problems having fun with those who take things way too seriously. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 20:00
My friends also. Among the bands music we shared were Rush, Yes, Gentle Giant , Jethro Tull, Supertramp, and Pink Floyd.We had a good amount of what is now called Classic Rock, too. But we'd borrow and loan the LPs amongst us, therefore increasing the amount of music we were exposed to. So kind of like PA does with reviews and threads, we'd play new acts and albums that we bought, and then "trade" them temporarily to get something else. At one point, 3 friends had each owned in turn a copy of Rush's All the World's a Stage live release. During the first 8 months they had it, I'd actually had it at my house longer than they had. Looking back , it's interesting to see what new bands we got into just based on a friend's recommendation or suggestion. Mind you, part of it was " hey, you gotta listen to this!" enthusiasm. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 20:08
Ah, but then how do you prove one's superiority over another ? If you prefer Bach, would you be as open to being told that Beethoven is superior to Bach ? Do you know how one could or would prove which is "superior" ? Stating preferences, or saying that the best musician you've found is X, that's one thing. Claiming subjective opinion to be objective is hard to do. Do you cite album sales, concert tickets sold ? Do you comb the internet to see which group is most cited as an influence ? Do you look at PA's top 100 and go, "These people look pretty intelligent (for the most part) and thus their ranking is true to my tastes" ? In my younger days, I'd argue passsssssionately that this band was more artistic than the other because of reason A or B and so on. No one that I remember was impressed enough with my arguements so as to change their "allegiances". The best response was always, "well I don't know/care/believe about that, I just like their songs." As if your own tastes were an insufficient reason to prefer one band over another ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 20:13
Beethoven is overrated, way way overrated. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 25 2008 at 21:28
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Reminds me of the first question I used to ask my daughter's boyfriends: "David or Sammy"?
Occurs to me I should give the appropriate response based on their answer:
1. "Who?". This guy and I aren't going to have a lot to talk about.
2. "Sammy!" This guy's a loser.
3. "David!". Better make sure daughter is taking precautions!
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 02:44
Indeed. I liked some of his early demos, but the first symphony was a total sell-out. |
Posted By: Guzzman
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 03:31
Why is somebody a loser just because he likes Sammy Davis Jr.?  And why should a girl take precautions dating David Crosby? ------------- "We've got to get in to get out" |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 03:36
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 07:43
I do believe he was talking about Bing Crosby, Bill's brother who added an "R" to the family name.  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 08:02
I only listen to original vinyl LPs. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 08:11
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 08:12
I think he lost a lot of musicians' respect when he told that guy to play the violin faster P.S. I wonder if Ludwig got a cut of the royalties from Walter Murphy's Fifth ? I've never seen any court cases suing for damages. And I read a lot of music media. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 13:00
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Well, I went on eBay a few years back and scored an acetate of Fidelio, the Basement Tapes, which the seller claims he found at a garage sale. ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 13:28
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"Better" as an abstract concept is just impossible to define... If we attach some meaning to that word, some universe where it hass to move, then it IS possible to define something as "better". But just plainly "better" with no context, is impossible. If we say that "better" means "more complex", then Beethoven is better than DJ Bobo.
If we say that we're measuring the importance of both in music history, then LVB is better than DJBB.
If we use the scope of work and the time it took to compose it, then LVB is better than DJBB.
But if we just say "it's better" it pretty much sounds, as DB has clearly said, as a subjective position based in no arguments but one's personal opinion regarded as fact for the mere reason that said person states it in a critic-like, intellectual-oid way.
(Of course, someone could say "ok, so what's really better is what makes you dance...." Then, incredibly, DJBobo is better than LVB!?!?!?!?
So it depends on what you're looking for in a piece of music. If somehow a person says that his/her focus in music is somehow more important than others, if the person defending LVB says that someone who wants music just for dancing is just clueless, well, then it's clear that said person is what many people here call a SNOB.
(By the way, I LOVE LVB and usually hate Dj's of all kinds... but maybe I'm not the rule which we use to meaure the planet, am I??) ------------- 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 23:18
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Wasn't Bach's music overlooked for a number of years after his death ? Quoting from the Wikipedia bio "While Bach's fame as an organist was great during his lifetime, he was not particularly well-known as a composer. His adherence to Baroque forms and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapuntal - contrapuntal style was considered "old-fashioned" by his contemporaries, especially late in his career when the musical fashion tended towards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rococo#Music - Rococo and later http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_period_%28music%29 - Classical styles. A revival of interest and performances of his music began early in the 19th century, and he is now widely considered to be one of the greatest composers in the Western tradition." So, if we had spoken with an 18th century music critic, would his opinion of Bach vs Handel have withstood the test of time ? Among "knowledgeable" music circles , there are differing views as to which composers and artists are considered to have an impact beyond their time. Robert Johnson, Miles Davis, Mozart, Wes Montgomery, John/Paul/George/Ringo, Elvis, Chuck Berry, etc ... . But you will find disagreements. The classical music world is filled with those who see no merit to any genre of music that is related to Rock n Roll. That includes prog. You will find derision for Jazz Fusion among the jazzbos. And so you have the same attitude within Rock music. One genre is "superior" to another because it is X, or contains Y. So the viewpoint that is dismissive of a music simply because it does not meet certain measures or standards is laughable to say the least. Who can say that Haydn might not have been a Neo-Prog fan ? That Beethoven might have Led Zep use of dynamics to be of interest ? That Robert Johnson would have dug the Jon Butcher Blues Explosion or the White Stripes ? Maybe Mozart would have complimented Tony Banks on the melody from the Fountain of Salmacis ? Indeed, who knew that Samla would still be finding fans almost 40 years after its' inception ? C'est la vie, say the old folks, just goes to show you never can tell  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 23:21
Was there ever a better pure lyricist than Chuck Berry? Man could he catalog the details.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 02:05
For sure he would have DB, for sure he would have.
. -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 03:03
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Debrewguy: Measuring art considered more or less artistically/culturally equal as: Bach - Beethoven or Univers Zero - Henry Cow, has nothing to do with what I thought we were talking about. I'm not interested in doing that, and I never said I was. I know you all think I'm a disgusting snob for saying this. But if I ask person in the mid-to-late twenties with a comparable background (meaning exposed for all kinds of western culture, and atleast the basic education) what's his or her favorite art or artist was, and the reply is DJ Bobo; I would think this person was either stupid, joking or just awaken after ca. 13 years in coma. I know I haven't come up with any in depth analysis or proof, and I won't (and I'm not sure I would be able, atleast not in english) as we will never agree. Basically I trust knowledge, skills and experience, and I believe that having a lots of all that makes your opinion more valuable than someone who hasn't. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 04:29
------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 08:21
No match for the Bill Laswell remixes taken from the original acetates. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 10:54
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If one ought to respect the individual's subjective opinions on what music is superior to other music, one should also, to avoid hypocrisy, respect the individual's right to disagree with the aforementioned point of view, don't you think? I used to share Rocktopus' way of rating music, but I have abandoned it in favour of a philosophy more in tune with debrewguy's, although it also extends to subjects other than music. Becuase of that, I don't see the point of this debate. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:37
Oh yeah, but have you heard the 23 out takes ? I just cannot get enough of the 14th one where he quits after the second chord, and wonders if Keith would be a good name for his next child Oh, btw, does anyone know if $25000 is a good price for the cocktail napkin that Beethoven wrote the initial musical sketch for the 9th symphony ? I've read of rumours on the internet that a Bic Mac wrapper with the first four notes from the 5th has been located in Iowa, so I'm thinking of waiting for that to come on the market. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:38
I have no problems with someone saying they find one work of art superior than another. It is just a way of saying that you like one over the other. Stating that it is objectively superior is another. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:54
Rocky, the point is that there is no objective measure of "superiority". Any debates about it come off as "I know better than you". AND the attitude that one person's supposed knowledge about, say, musical theory/history can really be said to be able to judge which piece of music is inherently superior is akin to saying a physician can tell you who the most beautiful woman is. It is really and always an opinion. It may be argued that " les connaissances dans le domaine expert de la personne donne poids a leur verdict", but there is no scientific basis to rate art. Again, as I've noted from my readings, Bach's compositions were not held in high regard for a long time after his death. Yet, they are universally proclaimed as part of the canon of western music. In other words, people still play 'em, and people still wanna hear 'em. So I stand by my quote from a mid 20th century musical god - "just goes to show you never can tell" And if you are the type to judge someone's intelligence based solely on their tastes (oh my god, this person's opinion does not agree with mine !!!) in music, that says more about you than it does about people who do not share your own preferences. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 04:20
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 06:20
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I could write an extremely long and convoluted post on the issue of superiority of one piece of music over another, just like I have in the past, but to respect people's sanity I'll sum it up this way: You can buy your music from musicians, or you can buy your music from pimps/drug dealers. I trust you'll be better off doing the former, even if lots of people seem to be doing the latter. The above doesn't apply if you're buying Miles Davis |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 07:31
Any comment on the 70s "girls" that Wakeman preferred ??? Or how mature Jimmy Page's girlfriend was ? A musician is one who makes music. A fan is one who enjoys music. The genre that either play or like is unimportant. Again, would you accept a classically trained pianist dismissing prog music ? Would be be as strongly moved to agree with a trad jazz musician who derided jazz fusion ? It's nice to see yourself as right, only to find out that other "knowledgeable" "skilled", and "trained" people look down on your tastes in music because they know it is "inferior". ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 08:23
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 09:23
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 14:26
Any comment on the 70s "girls" that Wakeman preferred ??? Or how mature Jimmy Page's girlfriend was ? No, because it wouldn't have anything to do with my argument. (DB - you mentioned pimps/drug dealers ? ) A musician is one who makes music. And a lawyer is someone who gives legal advice... if I tell someone they shouldn't jaywalk, does that make me a lawyer? And if I replace a lightbulb, does that make me an electrician? (DB - ah, but such trades and occupations have specific requirements that need to be met in order to call one's self a lawyer or electrician. A musician on the other hand , simply put, is a person who can play an instrument. Virtuosity could be measured by their skill, but no minimum ability is required for a person to claim they are a musician. Again, would you accept a classically trained pianist dismissing prog music ? Would be be as strongly moved to agree with a trad jazz musician who derided jazz fusion ? I'd listen to what they have to say... depending on the person they might be full of it, or they might notice (potentially) negative aspects of those genres their fans seem unaware of... it could be utterly boring and predictable, but it could also be enlightening... (DB - Ah, but my point is would you accept an "expert" declaring your favored music as "inferior".If they state that RIO/Avant-Garde is melodically challenged (I present it as an excample, not as fact or even my opinion. As I find melodies in UZ's work) and therefore less valid than other music genres, would that change a RIO fan's preferences. Should it ? It's nice to see yourself as right, only to find out that other "knowledgeable" "skilled", and "trained" people look down on your tastes in music because they know it is "inferior". Heh, knowledgeable people...Son House, for example, was tremendously knowleadgeable about music. And he never needed to learn or quote all that theoretical stuff, the enormity of his musical knowledge was evident with every sound he played or sang... a true musician. ( DB - You're confusing terms. Son House knew how to write & play great blues tunes. Many will likely survive eons. But the only thing evident in his songs was the talent that he had for his musical genre. So really, what I figure you mean is his skill, his talent; not knowledge. I doubt it would have qualified him to judge whether Neo-Prog was less progressive than Symphonic. . And I would bet that he would not even have cared. But he was a true musician. If you're a blues fan. Music is huge, so some musicians will be totally unlike others... but as with lawyers and electricians, what they have in common is that they have to actually know something about music to be musicians in the first place. (Db - yes, again, they know how to play an instrument. no test required, no union certification. After all, what else would you "need" to know)How much do they need to know to merit that name? Lawyers and electricians need to know enough to handle the issues they're entrusted with and so do musicians, in their own special way... and a key part of knowing enough is always wanting to know more, to learn, whether through books, experience, experimentation, intuition or whatever...how many musicians do that consitently? (DB - er, mmm, ... So Son House was a true musician because he was always trying to learn more ? I don't know that he read; I'm sure that he didn't travel outside the delta, and his recorded works do not show that he experimented, at least not the way we understand the term today. He did play by intuition, though. So he scores 1 out of 4. And am I so wrong thinking that their work would be superior to that of their colleagues' who can't/won't recognise and respond to the broadness and challenges of their chosen craft? (DB - again, you're making points, but not explaining them. Robert Johnson was not the best selling blues artist of his time. And because of the limited recordings made during this era, it is possible that more than a few unrecorded artists, playing in relative obcurity, may have been superior in their playing. As to why their names are not known, well, figure a slave's son, tied to the land sharecroppingbarely having the werewithal to play the Saturday fish fry . There are some musical genres where you can keep learning theory until you die. And there are musical genres that allow attempts to stretch accepted boundaries. But many make incremental changes at best, yet are considered to be good or great musicians. As far as the broadness of their craft, coming back to Son House, was he responding to the challenges by playing some 1 chord blues, other songs based on a 13 bar set-up, and one or two brought straight up out of his chruch upbringing (John the Revelator) ? Or was he just playing what came to him ? I don't believe that the blues "originators" were grand theorists, eh. Hey, I'm no snob, I'm not smart and I can't do anything right. I'm just a concerned customer, wishing to get the best possible product for his money, a product that will last, as music isn't cheap. Is it too much to ask? I might not want to listen to Ornette Coleman for every day of the rest of my life, but I'm fairly certain that when I choose to listen to him, I will love it, whether it's five, ten, twenty or fifty years from now. This is what makes a true musician. And it's certainly more than I can say for a large part of my collection, wasted money, unfortunately. (DB - But the point we're discussing is whether there is an objective basis to believe that one person can be the authority in determining the superiority of one genre or artist over another. If you are a fan of Ornette Coleman, and of Jazz in particular, would it matter if Branford Marsalis states unequivocally that Dizzie Gillespie is a better musician than Coleman? Marsalis is considered enough of an "expert" or "authority" on jazz to have been used extensively in Burns' documentary on Jazz history.Yet, there were many questions as to the bias he holds against the direction that jazz went in from the late 50s onwards. So free form jazz, and other more untraditional forms were, in his opinion, not worthy of mention in an American Jazz history. Considering the status of Davis' Bitches Brew here at PA, do we bow to Marsalis' knowledge (theoretical and historical), talent (he has received both critical and commercial success), and skill ( again, recognition that he is a good or great jazz musician by jazz fans and critics) ? Or, if you have actually read the initial comments - do we say that he holds an opinion, based on his subjective tastes; and as such it carries no more weight as far as assigning a certain value to one music or another than say, Ivan Melgar's(Ivan's a lawyer, too). Both may show admiration and preference for the works of music they enjoy or hold in high regard. And speak of those that they dislike or don't und or music is the greatest or the worst. That, my friend, is test for which the formulas, equations, and other such calculations and measurements have not been developed to objectively resolve subjective differences relative to one genre's worth compared to another. All music is music. All musical genres have some music that will last forever. All music has some music that will enjoy success and acclaim in its' own time, and be eventually forgotten. All music has some that will be created in obscurity, and attain success, critical or commercial, later; in some cases even after the composer(s)/player(s)' passing away. And ALL music has some music that never sees the light of day, never attracts attention or even kudos. All music will have some great good and bad, even according to its' biggest fans. All music will have its' fans. All music will have its' detractors. None of this will matter to the person who is enjoying the music he is listening to at the moment. All that is important is the pleasure derived from the experience. No matter the reason the music is found to be pleasing. And no matter what some may call an 'expert" and the supposed authoratative opinion that this "expert" may hold. P.S. If you're looking or need rankings, accept that such things are popularity polls that reflect nothing more than a general view point of a certain group of people. Then start a venomous thread on the next innocuous and silly top so and so list in ROlling Stone. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 03:59
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I'm finished here DB. You read excactly what you want to into my posts anyway. I think your replies are absurd. f**k objective criterias and all that measurable sh*t I haven't kept stating anywhere here (just you). I'm telling you what I trust, and what I believe is right. Have a great time listening to plain stupidity. I don't have the time. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 05:41
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If someone wants to listen to "plain stupidity" than more power to them! It's not my place to judge people or their tastes.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:45
Rocky, have I ever told you your OPINION or TASTES or PREFERENCES were wrong ? You keep slipping away from the point that I make - that no one can say OBJECTIVELY that one music, genre, artist , is OBJECTIVELY superior to another. I ask you to provide said OBJECTIVE measures, and you come back saying that you really mean that you like this or that over that or this. As far as the plain stupidity comment, when you point your finger, you got three more fingers pointing back at you, eh ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |