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jimmy_row 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 11 2007 Location: Hibernation Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
 Posted: September 11 2008 at 10:51 |
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jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007 Location: Hibernation Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 10:59 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 11:09 |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66634 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 11:36 |
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1st off, thank you for your response. A good point that you made is the ability to get to know reviewers and their tastes. Obviously that takes time from the person who is reading reviews to get to know all of the reviewers. But by reading the reviews on an album that you are interested in, if you read a review that intrigues you, you can always go to that reviewers list of reviews and see how their taste matches yours on albums that you have in common. Something that is not entirely necessary because a really good review should tell you what you need to know. I think that this is a process that most of us regulars have gone through to an extent over time. By reading reviews and getting to know people in the forums I think that we get a pretty good idea of people whose tastes are similar and those whose tastes we would like to avoid.
I agree that those with reviewer/collab status reviews should be at least good quality and should be held to a higher standard. Generally, the thread for reporting reviews that don't meet the sites guidelines includes reviews by newbies to the site, who are contacted by the admins and encouraged to improve their reviews/given suggestions for improving their reviews. But I think that this same should apply even more so for collabs and reviewers. Certainly, if someone who holds these titles is writing reviews that don't meet the site's guidelines then they should be kindly approached and encouraged to adjust their reviews appropriately. I suspect that this is already done to the extent that bad reviews are noticed and reported. And of course if they continue to write bad reviews then a demotion might be in order. Obviously, this kind of a decision made by admins on a facts and circumstances basis.
I should mention I don't have any problem with rating albums without reviews. I agree that they generally don't deserve the same weighting as a rating with a review but they can still be helpful. Especially when done by somebody whose tastes that you have gotten to know. In my case, I have only written about 25 reviews here. I think that some are pretty good, and even entertaining reading, but most are probably pretty drab. On Mike's www.progfreak.com site, I have rated about 700 albums but most without reviews. I could and maybe I should probably do the same thing here on PA. Add my ratings now, and eventually get around to writing a review that supports the rating, rather than not having any ratings because I don't have a good enough feel on an album to write a review, or the review writing muse hasn't struck yet. At least for now, I use Mike's site to get the rating bug out of the way with the thought that someday a review will come to mind and make its way to this site.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 14:01 |
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That is indeed an unfortunate (and extreme) example. It's common knowledge that many prog fans do not like anthologies and will rate box-sets and Best of... collections accordingly. The observation that it is for collectors or completest only in itself is not without merit - I cannot imagine that a casual buyer with no knowledge of the Doors would buy it on spec and there are probably less expensive ways to get an introduction to their music, or more essential studio albums to buy first. Yet a review of the compilation for it's artistic value is equally valid and there is nothing wrong in reflecting that in the review and the rating and is of great value to someone who owns some of the material and is considering buying the full-set. In both cases the reason for the rating could be deduced from the review content. Regardless of the weighting, or even the ratings - the content of both reviews when read together I feel give a better understanding and impression of the set than just one alone... and that's the real power of the PA's reviews (certainly not the average rating) - you get the real picture and the real balance by reading all the reviews (well, as many as is practical) for an album - counter a 5* review with a 1* review to see the contrasting opinion the album can impart on two different people. Another thing I would recommend when reading "extreme" reviews is to check-out the reviewer's other reviews to get an impression of the person's likes and dislikes.
For the paltry few reviews I've written to date, my collab weighting hasn't made that much difference to the overall tally in each case.
(However, knowing that my review will carry a higher weight does compel me to write better, even if I don't have the natural reviewing talent to pull it off
 )ps: Yorkie - its outrages! or it's outrageous? ... not important, just curious.
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What?
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37598 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 15:56 |
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I've suggested this before; bit surprised that no one else thinks it's a worthwhile idea. I also thought this would be good for the album reviews pages (that one can set preferences to see how it's ordered -- I like to see latest to earliest and not have collab non-collab reviews in seperate categories or sections -- all mixed together depending on date, but, even better, would also like to be able to see it ordered by rating... I enjoy the one star reviews most  . Course one can see latest reviews irregardless of status on the band page). |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 16:41 |
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BTW: I remember the contrary case:
I was adding a band (After months posting for several weeks in the Collaborators section and the team authorizing the addition), it took me hours to add the band and the albums.
When I finished adding the last album and making a review, a guy who is not a Colaborator and normally rates everything except Pink Floyd very low had rated without any review or explanation, the album I was about to post with 1 star
Similar cases where the reason why the weight of the ratings was changed, there was no way to ask this guy why he rated the album so low or retire the rating, because a RWR doesn't need explanation, but if a Prog Reviewer did that, he would be contacted by the Adms, especuially if he rates only one band 5 stars and the rest very low.
Honestly, I felt frustrated, all that work and a guy who probably never heard the album and was only lurking which band was being added threw it down so his beloved Pink Floyd was kept always at the top.
BTW: I do believe all the reviews should be shown, but maybe it will take too much bandwith.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 11 2008 at 16:43 |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 17:00 |
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I know M@x is aware of the shortcomings in the way non-collaborator reviews are shown in the album pages. I can't promise anything just now, but he is committed to improving things.
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Yorkie X
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 04 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1049 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 21:10 |
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Dean said // "ps: Yorkie - its outrages! or it's outrageous? ... not important, just curious"
My response // Sometimes on rare occasions spell check can cause more problems than its worth  |
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7974 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 21:31 |
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I already told it, I don't want my voice to be heavy. I only don't like when someone's not well-thought voice is heavier than mine (The Doors reviews example).
And Ivan, I have the feeling that you are, not intentionally, lying to yourself. There is almost no sacrifice, we are here only because we love music, because it is interesting for us. We do it because we like to do it, isn't it? Though I agree that when you are working in a team you have some obligations, but I can't call it sacrifice.
To lower the degree of this discussion, I started kinda "Thank you" thread: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51719
Hope it will be supported by progheads.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 21:58 |
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7974 |
Posted: September 11 2008 at 22:11 |
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^ I hope in future you will be mentioned there many times.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: September 12 2008 at 19:54 |
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The weighting also works to alleviate fanboy boosts of their favourite band by giving everything a five, or vice-versa everything a group has released a one.
Is this biased ? Yes. But I still am able to accept that Klaatu, Ange, and Night Sun will not enjoy the same high regard that I hold for them versus their PA ratings. P.S. O.K. , well, accept is not really the word, but I can live with the knowledge that these groups are "underrated"  Edited by debrewguy - September 12 2008 at 19:55 |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: September 12 2008 at 21:46 |
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Thanks Debrewguy, your post made me write my first Ange review, I started with Guet-Apens and will continue with the rest.
Yes, I believe they deserve more recognition, despite being so weird.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 12 2008 at 21:47 |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: September 12 2008 at 21:58 |
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I disagree and have to stand up and defend that review.
I've just read it and I realize is a review from a GREATEST HITS COLLECTION. As such, the review (what it says) is commenting mostly in the fact that is huge and enormous and pricey. As it clearly says, it's actually easier to buy only the 6 albums.
We're talking a greatest hits collection here. Those kinds of collection are usually ways to take money from customers selling them lots of useless garbage. I don't see ANY negative comment about the music in that review. He's reviewing the collection. And I agree. And would give it one star if I had the thing because is just a rip-off.
I have given 1 stars to two greatest hits collection, and one by my FAVORITE band, so it's not really the music. In that case, it was because the song selection was atrocious. I never intended that to be a comment on the band's career, as it would be stupid to give 1 star to DT's career and then say that they're mny favporite band. It's the same case here.
So I think that review is unfairly treated here.,
And I also think that weighed ratings exist and it's good that they do.
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7974 |
Posted: September 12 2008 at 23:02 |
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^ Please, look carefully at track lists. If you think each The Doors song is a hit, OK, it is GREATEST HITS COLLECTION.
Imagine, DT will release a box set with all their studio albums in surround sound. Will you rate it with 1 star? |
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: September 12 2008 at 23:24 |
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^I seriously would... because it would just be anothewr way of ripping off fans.... The real fan of the band already has all the albums... and the casual ones who want to know the band for the first time would prefer a compilation of the best tracks, in a single-disc (or double at most), affordable collection. So who is this kind of collection targeted to??? Yes... 1-star.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: September 13 2008 at 00:35 |
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I agree, it makes me remember:
 Classic Yes
 Yesyears
 Yesstory
 The Very Best of Yes
 The Best of Yes
 Yes Today
 In A Word
 The Ultimate Yes
 Topography - The Yes Anthology
 The Solid Gold Collection
One more for the members to pick up some royalties
 And one for DJ The Verfe (Virgil Howe, Steve's son) to play
 Yes Re-Mixes
And despite this is a Yes fans site. look at the ratings, except The Solid Gold Collection, which has obly one rating without review that gave them an undeserved 5 stars rating, most surely from a fanboy, most of them are between one point something and three.
Tell me if this is not a rip off?
Iván
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21633 |
Posted: September 13 2008 at 04:55 |
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It would depend on how much it would cost, and on how good those mixes would be. Incidentally: Steven Wilson did just that, only one album at a time. Personally, I love those mixes. |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: September 13 2008 at 05:33 |
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While I take and agree with your basic point, I think the list you provide there is a little simplistic Ivan.
- Some of those collections contain interesting otherwise unavailable material (or did at the time of their release).
- The packaging of the box sets can be excellent, with what amounts to short books on the band included
- Even basic best of packages can steer people towards the band. How many people have discovered Yes by picking up a best of set with "Owner of a lonely heart on it"?
- The Yes remixes album is not a best of. While I personally think it is a poor effort, to be fair it should not be simply included in a list of compilations
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too heavily weighted ratings ? its outrageous
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rushfan4 wrote:
Bah. I don't like yes. I don't like Wakemen's cheezy keyboards. I don't like Bruford's drumming (I love his work for other bands, but with yes he was pretty sissy-ish). I don't like Howe's dry guitar tone and I HATE Anderson's inhuman voice; (The guy hates the work of 4 out of 5 Yes mebers, but then says) which is pretty unfortunate, for the band really is pretty talent, (How can you hate 4 out 5 members and then say they are pretty talented????)and can write good melodies and complex arrangements.
