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Logan 
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 Posted: September 09 2008 at 01:22 |
[
 Ivan wrote:
That's why I wrote:
| The
point is that claiming an artist is Progressive, is the first step for
proposing an addition, and in this case, I do believe it's absurd to
even suggest Willie Nelson has the slightest relation with Progressive
Rock. |
I've seen it happen hundreds of
times, first people say "It's Progressive but I fdon't suggest them",
and after a couple of days they are suggesting the inclusion. |
Maybe, but I don't see that following in this case...
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
...
Then blame people who started it.....For God's sake, somebody is suggesting Willie Nelson is Prog in this thread!!!!!! That's the first step for addition (BTW: Also suggesting Prog Rap)... |
Let's look at his post again in full.
tokenrove wrote:
Funkadelic had some pretty progressive tendencies. I
feel there are some similarities to Magma there, from shared roots
rather than interaction between the bands. Also, they definitely
weren't 100% funk; songs like March to the Witch's Castle aren't very
funky, but dark and heavy, if I recall correctly. (Don't have my
Funkadelic albums here.) I'd be quite grateful to hear any
recommendations for other bands based in funk with as much eclecticism
as Funkadelic had.
On a side note, someone was mentioning progressive country. Not to
suggest the artist for this site, clearly, but "Phases & Stages" by
Willie Nelson is a great concept album with recurring musical themes
and so on, maybe the closest I've heard to progressive country.
In terms of what gets added to the site, it seems to me like there
are a lot of bands, like Funkadelic, or Metallica, or Willie Nelson,
that could be recommended to prog listeners as something they might
like, that have many elements of prog, without being "prog enough" for
consensus. Why not allow the forum to continue to serve this purpose,
and keep controversial bands out of the archives? I don't contribute
enough to the community here for me to say anymore, but that's just my
thoughts on it based on being a lurker for a long time.
I'm eternally searching for progressive music based in any genre,
not just rock. I'd love to hear, for example, progressive rap developed
with the influence of operatic recitative, baroque counterpoint, and
minimalist polyrhythms. If someone created it, would it belong in these
archives? |
But don't you see, Ivan, how using this (look at it in full) for your argument misrepresents, or gives the wrong impression about tokenrove's position? Not only does he not say that Willie Nelson is Prog, he says it's maybe the closest he's heard to progressive country (I think most of us know the difference between Prog -- which is short for Progressive rock) and progressive music, which can be from various genres), but he makes an argument against such inclusion. "In terms of what gets added to the site, it seems to me like there
are a lot of bands, like Funkadelic, or Metallica, or Willie Nelson,
that could be recommended to prog listeners as something they might
like, that have many elements of prog, without being "prog enough" for
consensus. Why not allow the forum to continue to serve this purpose,
and keep controversial bands out of the archives?"
I read that to mean that we can always discuss these bands in the forums, but they should NOT be added to the archives in his opinion. It's a good, thoughtful, and exploratory post, and I feel that your comments did not do it justice.
And is he suggesting prog rap by saying,
"I'm eternally searching for progressive music based in any genre,
not just rock. I'd love to hear, for example, progressive rap developed
with the influence of operatic recitative, baroque counterpoint, and
minimalist polyrhythms. If someone created it, would it belong in these
archives?"
It's a question. Would it if it had those qualities?
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Logan
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 01:54 |
micky wrote:
oh good times indeed... I remember dying with laughter when you told us of that...
and on that note.... my two cents as usual..
remember brothers.... the site is supposed to be fun.... people make suggestions.... we all know those that have no chance in hell.. and those have a legitimate basis for being here without sh*tting on the people who we actually in effect are working for. To the non-collabs... dropping a reign of sh*t upon people's ideas or suggestons is never a good idea... for it only fosters the the type of enviroment that might bring down a river of sh*t maybe on YOUR suggestion. Trust me.. people here have LONG memories.
and for the collabs... how many times do you have to see collabs going at each others throats to see that a live and let live mind set is the best course here ...the absense of which.. has turned FAR more people off this site than any addition ever has.. or ever will. Not to mention.... we are here to work for the site.. and the people here... not to mock... for when you cut to the bone... that is exactly what happens when it goes beyond merely expressing an opinion... and having what we had here.. and have had time and time again. The experts here will deal with the suggestions.. the bogus ones get rejected... the ones that aren't.. are at the discretion of those who work and love this site just as much as one here.
my two cents on Funkadelic... and everything else dicussed here. Remember... we all love the music .. there is no right ... and no wrong way to look at it. Thankfully we have a site that is not black and white.. but grey... just like the music we are here for... if you want black and white.. there is pop music.. metal... this music has far too many colours.. and nuances for anyone to ever definitatively say what is prog or not... this site is about the music. As such.. it get judged strictly upon it.. Otherwise.. the site would have locked the doors to any groups post 70's and non-Eurpopean .. who are not generally known as PROG.
my speech for the day.. Greg was dead on... and his earlier post should be required reading hahha.
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Interesting post! Nothing to add to it, but this section "...we all know those that have no chance in hell.. and those have a
legitimate basis for being here without sh*tting on the people who we
actually in effect are working for. To the non-collabs... dropping a
reign of sh*t upon people's ideas or suggestons is never a good
idea... for it only fosters the the type of enviroment that might
bring down a river of sh*t maybe on YOUR suggestion..." reminded me of Mr. Lahey of Trailer Park Boys. Some of my favourite quotes... "He's takin' the sh*t tornado right back to Oz.
"
"Do you know what a sh*t barometer is Bubbles? It measures the sh*t
pressure in the air. Eventually your head will implode from all the
sh*t pressure. The winds of sh*t are coming." "sh*t typhoon is a coming. We'd better haul in the jib before it gets covered in sh*t" "Randy just doesn't understand. I mean I love him dearly, but I hate
Ricky more. I just don't want to have to put up with that prick for the
rest of my life. You know, he grew up as a little sh*t-spark from the
old sh*t-flint. And then he turned into a sh*t-bonfire and then driven
by the winds of his monumental ignorance, he turned into a raging
sh*t-firestorm. If I get to be married to Barb i'll have total control
of Sunnyvale, and then I can unleash a sh*tnami tidal wave that'll
engulf Ricky and extinguish his sh*t-flames forever. And with any luck,
he'll drown in the undersh*t of that wave. sh*t-waves.
"
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Certif1ed
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 04:37 |
My $0.02;
Free Your Mind and Your Ass Will Follow;
Title track - loads of wooey noises and vocalisations - can't be bad! Widdly guitar - sounds more like psychedelia than Prog. OK, after about a minute of this, and it sounds like a cheap Zappa imitation - and I mean cheap. The purpose is just to freak out, not to progress. Check out the funky groove - you bet that puppy's going to kick in... eventually. About 8 minutes in - it grows, but again, this feels like a gimmick - a bit of fun rather than a genuine attempt to experiment. The mad panning is really irritating in headphones until around 9:00, where it seems to settle into something that feels quite proggy, until the psych guitar widdles all over the top of it. Hmm. Borderline.
Friday Night, August 14th - OK, this is the core of Funkadelic - funky choons, this one based on Foxy Lady and a wah-driven Strat sound clearly designed to sound like Hendrix, but just over-busy noodling. Nice backing vox, but check out the awful solo. The song runs out of steam at the standard 3:30 pop song length, and the band build up a jam, with loads of echo all over the shop - quite experimental sounding with a nod towards jazz - but a noodly jam around one chord, like psych.
Funky Dollar Bill - heh! Sounds like Jane's Addiction. Proto Rap in here - and that guitarist really wishes he was Hendrix. If I wasn't looking out for Prog elements, I'd be digging this track a whole lot more. The piano makes a very striking entrance, and plays around with the rhythm - but the overall effect is like creating a loop in Fruity Loops and jamming over the top - and this is why the essence of this music is not Prog.
I Wanna Know if it's Good to You - We're in the same ballpark, as we are throughout the album - all the essential elements of all the other songs persist, but in more abundance; Hendrix-styled guitar over funky bass and drum lines, production effects a-plenty, especially insane panning, quasi-rapping... OK, it'd be hard to distinguish this track from much Krautrock - but most of the interest seems to come from production and effects rather than the music.
Some More - simple Booker T type thing with more effects than you can shake a stick at. Nice, but the simple, repetitive style belies bona fide Prog - and the sloppy Hammond playing is annoying.
Eulogy and Light - effects fest! Very interesting - and still completely within the Psych remit.
Maggott Brain:
Maggott Brain - 10 minutes of over indulgence with a Watkins copicat. Not Prog.
Can You Get to That - short Gospel-based ditty rooted in 2 chords. Not Prog.
Hit it and Quit it - Funktastic song, lyrics aren't exactly deep, driven by a single, groovy riff. Nice Hammond - but Not Prog.
You and Your Folks, Me and My Folks - Mmmmm, that's funky - drop the bass! Yeah Yeah Yeah (she loves you...) - straight down the line James Brown rooted funk, vocals approaching rap. Nice rockin' piano section, 4 to the floor rhythm driven by 8ths - shake that funky thang - Not Prog.
Super Stupid - it certainly would be to follow the Prog line here. Next stop the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Back in Our Minds - heh! love the boingy sound, but Prog? er...
Wars of Armageddon - nearly 10 minutes, there's a Prog element. Hammond again - looking good. Beat mashup - very tasty. Here comes the funky bass, and manic vocalisations, wooey noises. pentatonic wailing guitar solo madly panned around the stereo picture - man, those drums are crazy! Breakdowns, reminding me of Can... there's 10 minutes of this? Hmm. It's a bit boring after 3 - you know exactly where it's going; more of the same. 6 minutes - amusing vocalisations - OK, since when was Prog about getting pussy? Meeoow indeed. More tea, vicar?
Sorry, but almost 10 minutes of near-prog isn't enough to make this a prog album, and it's not "proper" prog. It seems a step backwards from "Free Your Mind..."
"Standing on the Verge of Getting it On"
Again - more fun and games in the studio.
"It's not nice to fool with nature" we are told - but is exactly what this band does, with all the studio trickery, which is undeniably cool and fun, but this is exactly what Prog does not do - Prog is about the music, the compositions and what can be done with the music compositionally. The coolest, most fun part comes AFTER the composition, when it all takes shape. Before then, it's hard work.
As with the first two, this later Funkadelic album is more about being funky first, having a great time with the studio toys second, and the incidental creating of progressive compositions is an occasional result of fooling around rather than being one of the primary purposes.
Since someone else mentioned Metallica, it should be noted that to Metallica in the early days, the primary focus was on the progressive writing approach I just described - writing music of that complexity represents a lot of hard compositional work.
To me, Prog can't be jammed along to.
Try jamming along to Funkadelic. Mmmm - easy peasy, and lotsa fun!
Try jamming along to Metallica or Genesis, Dream Theater or King Crimson... or Magma... Very difficult!
Why?
Because of the composed essence of the music.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Windhawk
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 04:50 |
Certif1ed wrote:
My $0.02;
Prog is about the music, the compositions and what can be done with the music compositionally. The coolest, most fun part comes AFTER the composition, when it all takes shape. Before then, it's hard work.
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If that is a truth cast in stone, we better say goodbye to Krautrock and psychedelic/space in here, and maybe jazzrock/fusion as well. All those genres would be pretty thined out following that line of reasoning.
I'm dead against Funkadelic's inclusion - but this argument isn't the best ;-)
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Certif1ed
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 05:33 |
Those are Prog Related genres - none are Prog Rock per se - I thought that was common knowledge.
Indeed, the only Jazz Rock/Fusion I'd accept as Prog-related is the composed stuff, like Mahavishnu or Soft Machine.
Psychedelic Rock isn't Prog Rock, but there were some Progressive Psych bands - those who used composition as a basis, like Pink Floyd, for example.
Space Rock isn't Prog Rock - but contains anomalies like Hawkwind, whose musical goal was clearly to create a sonic universe of galactic proportions - and the lyrics emphasise this. In as much as the music is composed, the textures are all designed with this sonic journey in mind - composition is still a key goal.
Kraut/Kosmische kinda follows the same lines. It is music with intent - although at its worst, I agree, it's aimless jamming and little different to Psych. Maybe it should be thinned out a bit... At it's best, though - for example, Kraftwerk's first album, or Can, who are an interesting case, because they created compositions from improvisations - there are complex compositions to be found, and that's part of the fun of exploring the genre.
There are no truths cast in stone, only the ideas of truths: Please note that I underlined composed essence, not the earlier sentence - as improvisation is also an important element of Prog - and the underlining is merely emphasis to get the idea across. It's an important distinction to make. 
Edited by Certif1ed - September 09 2008 at 05:37
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Windhawk
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 06:22 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Those are Prog Related genres - none are Prog Rock per se - I thought that was common knowledge.
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Well, these are listed as full progressive sub-genres on this site though - I guess that means you're opposed to the definitions of prog that this site use then?
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micky
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 06:30 |
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hahahha... oh the joy of the archives... for you both are right...
Structure IS one the predominant aspects that goes into making prog what it is.. in my opinion.. in a LOT of people's opinions if they actually sat down and tried to explain just what Prog IS.
however... it is NOT the same as saying the lack of emphasis on structure makes something not prog. Exceptions to the rule.. there always have been.. always will be.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Windhawk
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 07:12 |
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Hehe - structure, complexity and a certain skill on either technical or atmospheric aspect of the music. Which doesn't mean or indicate that it has to be planned though - Öresund Space Collective is a prime example of quite complex music that has been created without composing to give one example ;-)
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akin
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 07:13 |
Atavachron wrote:
if what your saying, akin, is that each artist should be judged and added on its own merits rather than if it does or does not 'fit' within a certain genre, I agree. However, I don't think ProgMetal is any more separate from 'common prog' than JazzRock Fusion, Electronic, or Post/Math is
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Neither do I, but there are lots of posts or threads in PA, made by the Prog Metal specialists and other Special Collaborators who are fans of Prog Metal stating that Prog Metal is a separate entity from "common prog" and bands that have nothing in common with "common prog" but share some elements with other debatable Prog Metal bands are Prog Metal.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 08:02 |
Windhawk wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Those are Prog Related genres - none are Prog Rock per se - I thought that was common knowledge.
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Well, these are listed as full progressive sub-genres on this site though - I guess that means you're opposed to the definitions of prog that this site use then? |
I think that most definitions of Prog are inaccurate - that doesn't mean I oppose them, quite the reverse - I am in the habit of proposing alternatives and working on something more accurate and meaningful.
I also think that most genre-isation of music is nonsensical, and the definitions almost always poorly thought through, especially in the last decade or so, where it's all gone genre-crazy in what seems to be a sad attempt at pigeon-holing so that fans of genre X can say "I really don't like genre Y" instead of appearing to be hypocritical in liking one band but disliking another similar band.
From what's what's available on their MySpace site, Öresund Space Collective are an interesting interpretation of what the Ozric Tentacles (and a large number of other jam bands in the 1980s) were doing - but they certainly don't remind me of early Hawkwind, as there doesn't appear to be the same focus - and I haven't heard anything particularly complex (compositionally) from them among the pieces posted there. Even the Ozrics (more specifically Ed Wynne) planned the compositions to some extent. I'd suspect that OSC only got into the archives because they sound a bit like the Ozrics - but would need to hear more of their stuff to verify this.
They certainly don't sound like Prog on a "touchy-feely" basis to me (ignoring any technical whys or wherefores). They sound like a large number of bands I used to jam with - they're not doing anything new.
Thanks for bringing them to my attention - their "Biography" is a copy and paste of the blurb on their MySpace site, so we need to edit it quickly, unless we've got permission to use it.
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chopper
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 08:33 |
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Nice argument, as Micky said I love these threads but I'm just wondering why TaoJones proposed this band but hasn't made a single contribution to the argument over their inclusion.
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Easy Money
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 09:35 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 13:14 |
Logan wrote:
Maybe, but I don't see that following in this case...
As I told you Logan, I've seen this happen a lot of times, bands with no support and which most people don't believe should be here, being added after a short period of their intoduction as Progressive artists.
Let's look at his post again in full.
Again, I know what his post says but tell me something........Why mentioning some artist as Progressive if there isn't the secret desire for his addition?
We've seen this happen a lot of times.
But don't you see, Ivan, how using this (look at it in full) for your argument misrepresents, or gives the wrong impression about tokenrove's position? Not only does he not say that Willie Nelson is Prog, he says it's maybe the closest he's heard to progressive country (I think most of us know the difference between Prog -- which is short for Progressive rock) and progressive music, which can be from various genres), but he makes an argument against such inclusion. "In terms of what gets added to the site, it seems to me like there are a lot of bands, like Funkadelic, or Metallica, or Willie Nelson, that could be recommended to prog listeners as something they might like, that have many elements of prog, without being "prog enough" for consensus. Why not allow the forum to continue to serve this purpose, and keep controversial bands out of the archives?"
The problem wit this progressive vs Progressive Rock issue, is that there's already a good bunch of people announcing progressive artists should be added also, and that IMO is wrong, this is a Progressive Rock site.
I read that to mean that we can always discuss these bands in the forums, but they should NOT be added to the archives in his opinion. It's a good, thoughtful, and exploratory post, and I feel that your comments did not do it justice.
If I'm wrong, I apologize, but honestly I believe the names have already been introduced, I'm 90% sure we'll se them suggested for addition very soon.
And is he suggesting prog rap by saying,
"I'm eternally searching for progressive music based in any genre, not just rock. I'd love to hear, for example, progressive rap developed with the influence of operatic recitative, baroque counterpoint, and minimalist polyrhythms. If someone created it, would it belong in these archives?"
It's a question. Would it if it had those qualities?
Of course he's doing it
"If someone created it, would it belong in these archives?""
He's clearly opening the door, and if we remember, Prog Rap has been proposed more than once...I'm sure that you can notice this is a covered proposition, because allowing the posibility is opening the door.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 09 2008 at 22:36
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micky
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 20:19 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 20:38 |
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this place is a jungle
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micky
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 20:44 |
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yep...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Money
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 21:25 |
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I just sent Tao a PM, hopefully he'll come back and chat with us some day.
Now on the subject of the 'real Progressive Rock'..... I don't know how old the rest of you are, but when I was a young teenager this music was fresh, I can remember listening to albums like 'In Search of the Lost Chord', 'Book of Talesyn', 'In the Court of the Crimson King' and 'ELP' with this feeling of absolute awe. Music like this had hardly existed before. Each new album brought fresh new ideas and it was all very exciting for someone who really loved music.
Then the mid-70s came and and stadium styled prog rock was popular and all these awful bands came out that were obviously pop bands capitalizing on what was a profitable trend in music, eventually these psuedo-prog bands became the pop bands that they always really were. All of my friends who were into the original progressive rock didn't care for, nor trust these bands. I still don't like these bands and consider them to be a big factor in what killed off the enthusiasm for real Progressive Rock. As a lover of true Progressive Rock it always bugs me that these bands are considered to be 'progressive' and live happily ever after on this site.
Edited by Easy Money - September 09 2008 at 22:08
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jammun
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 22:03 |
Easy Money wrote:
I just sent Tao a PM, hopefully he'll come back and chat with us some day.
Now on the subject of the 'real Progressive Rock'..... I don't know how old the rest of you are, but when I was a young teenager this music was fresh, I can remember listening to albums like 'In Search of the Lost Chord', 'Book of Talesyn', 'In the Court of the Crimson King' and 'ELP' with this feeling of absolute awe. Music like this had hardly existed before. Each new album brought fresh new ideas and it was all very exciting for someone who really loved music.
Then the mid-70s came and and stadium styled prog rock was popular and all these awful bands came out that were obviously pop bands capitalizing on what was a profitable trend in music, eventually these psuedo-prog bands became the pop bands they always really were. All of my friends who were into the original progressive rock didn't care for, nor trust these bands. I still don't like these bands and consider them to be a big factor in what killed off the enthusiasm for real Progressive Rock. As a lover of true Progressive Rock it always bugs me that these bands are considered to be 'progressive' and live happily ever after on this site. |
I'm one of the old farts. I've tried and perhaps been successful or not to make the point that back when all the seminal music was made we only considered it really good rock. But hell in 1967 I was thirteen years old; what did I know, other that some music was WAY more special than the other stuff.
The only thing I would add to the '70s aspect of it was the general diminution of the 'prog' bands themselves. I have stated before that during the Welcome Back My Friends... tour, when I saw Emerson on the spinning piano, I saw the end of what had been known as prog. Not that this was entirely ELP's fault...they were merely following a nasty trend of more and more extravagant shows, where the show supercedes the music. So some might say, dude, what about the knives in the keyboards during those The Nice years? That actually served a purpose, allowing E to engage in a bit of showmanship (a la Hendrix et. al.) with his Hammond while the knives held the keys down and engaged. (If you follow that sentence because I'm not being real clear here.)
Now I have nothing against Funkadelic (not real familiar with them but I am extremely familiar with Parliament and Bootsy), but it's not prog. Yes it's progressive funk, but then y'all better create a new Prog Funk category, at which point the 'where's Sly Stone' thread will quite rightly start immediately.
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micky
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Posted: September 09 2008 at 22:19 |
Easy Money wrote:
I just sent Tao a PM, hopefully he'll come back and chat with us some day.
As a lover of true Progressive Rock it always bugs me that these bands are considered to be 'progressive' and live happily ever after on this site. |
^  and that last sentence... has aroused my curiosity... PM me...which bands 'bug' you. That is just something I'm curious about... doesn't need to be a topic in itself. Genre team work is a very fine line of balancing the 'true' for some... which very often is not prog.. or even progressive... with for others...was very progressive and prog under any flexible standard of defining.. yet is not associated with the 'true' Progressive Rock. 
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Certif1ed
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Posted: September 10 2008 at 02:50 |
jammun wrote:
y'all better create a new Prog Funk category, at which point the 'where's Sly Stone' thread will quite rightly start immediately.
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A very good point - Sly did much the same, but a few years earlier.
Prog Funk - now there's an idea... 
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Funkadelic for space rock/ heavy prog?
