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Topic ClosedJazz Fusion or Jazz Prog Fusion

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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2008 at 08:38
Originally posted by mr70s mr70s wrote:

After all, there's always an element of rock, and it is progressive (by strict definition).  Wink 



indeed much of it by default - unlike a lot of latterday progressive rock......
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2008 at 08:55
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Let's use the Venn diagrams  to make it easy: (Sorry for the quality of colors, I'm not an expert: Wink
 
 
In theory, we should only add to Prog Fusion the red section, the yellow one to Prog Fusion Related or maybe another variety of Fusion, and completely ignore the the rest, including simple Jazz Rock in blue..
 
Am I OK?
 
Are we doing this?
 
Iván


Good idea the diagram - although we probably need it to go into the 4th dimension to take care of the prime musical contributors. However, I've never seen prog as a major musical genre like jazz, rock, folk, world  folk, classical, etc. - hence to me prog is  the shaded zones when the major genres intermesh with rock. Hence for example  that early form of jazz fusion, Indo jazz fusion would be  formed by the intermeshing of jazz and world music/sub-set  Indian. In other words:damned complex to produce as a simple diagram
 
 
I agree with you Dick, surely Prog is not a separete genre from Rock, but I'm only trying to represent  the three main elements present in the Fusion I believe we should place emphasis.
 
And of course this is a simplification, a complete chart would have to add Folk and Psyche to create Canterbury (for exampe).
 
But I'm happy the idea is got despite the simplistich diagram.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 23 2008 at 08:56
            
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2008 at 09:00
Originally posted by mr70s mr70s wrote:

Let's just throw open the flood gates to all jazz rock fusion. After all, there's always an element of rock, and it is progressive (by strict definition)Wink 



Why ... and by which definition?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2008 at 14:43
i think i said it a few times now. Not all jazz-rock/fusion is prog. it depends on the band/artist and even sometimes the album (would you call RTF's first 2 albums prog? Great music, and it is jazz-rock, but prog it is not)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2008 at 14:45
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Let's have a look at the current definition:

"Jazz Rock/Fusion definition: Sometimes includes progressive jazz. This style fuses traditional jazz arrangements, instruments, and performance style with elements of progressive rock. The result is usually instrumental jazz-rock with a somewhat more technical and complex edge. Very interesting to listen to - especially if you are a musician who marvels at the amazing virtuosity of some of these artists."

I think it would be really helpful if that definition could be expanded, explaining the difference between the kind of fusion that can be included here and non-prog fusion. Perhaps, to get things started, the experts of the genre could list some fusion artists/albums which should not be included.


id be up to the task of re-writing a jazz-rock/fusion definition.

maybe i'll compile a list when i get home from work
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mr70s View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2008 at 16:00
 
Let's just throw open the flood gates to all jazz rock fusion. After all, there's always an element of rock, and it is progressive (by strict definition)Wink 


Why ... and by which definition?
 
 
 
Jazz rock fusion is progressive in the sense that it was, and remains in a constant state of flux.
For example, we could apply any of these defintions :
 
favoring or promoting progress
gradually advancing in extent
describing action that is on-going
progress and reform
 
We could debate the result of these changes endlessly, but what can not be denied is that in the strict sense of the meaning, jazz rock fusion is progressive.


Edited by mr70s - August 23 2008 at 16:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2008 at 16:24
^ I don't think that these definitions apply to all jazz rock ... Candy Dulfer (as mentioned by Dick Heath) might be an extreme example, but I guess I have a point. Somewhere between Mahavishnu Orchestra and Candy Dulfer there's a - admittedly fuzzy - boundary between prog and non-prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:31
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Well, as long as I remember, Mahavishnu was always considered a Prog band.
 
I know all of this is technicall, maybe we should work the forum in three separete fields as Proggnosis:
 
  1. Progressive Rock
  2. Progressive Metal
  3. Progressive Jazz Fusion.

Each one with it's related and Proto categories, because as I see, in the actual way it's not working.

Iván
 


Clap This is also what I always thought ... I also see these three major categories. *Maybe* Avant-Garde would make sense as a 4th major category.


5. Progressive Electronica
6. Progressive Folk
7. Progressive Hiphop

I thought this was what the subcategories were for. But then again, I've always viewed the constraint in this site that all artists should have a base in rock, as quite narrow. And progressive has nothing to do with narrowness.
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Chris S View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 05:09
Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

I've tried to articulate this before, perhaps unsuccessfully, so I'll try it again.

For those of us who were listening to prog in the late-60's/early-70's, it was virtually a natural progression that we would start listening to fusion (RTF, WR, Miles, HH), because just at the time that traditional progressive-rock was stagnating, fusion was growing its wings; and, lo, it had many of the same characteristics that we loved in progressive rock:  complex songs and way-competent musicianship, opening our minds to really endless new possibilities.  I remember seeing Mahavishnu O opening for ELP 'round about '72, if you get my drift. 

I can't tell you much about the people who frequent this site, but I can tell you that if they found their way here at all it is because they are inclined to like  'challenging' music, which I would think would include fusion and even traditional jazz.  (Jeez, I stumbled upon the site looking for a Rush review (hardly my definition of a 'pure' prog band)).  Hence there is a fusion category here.  I agree it is disorienting to see Kind of Blue there as the most popular album, but that will eventually fade and we'll see We Want Miles up there.Big%20smile

History sez that during the time frame in question there was cross-pollination that made categorization next to impossible.  I understand the impulse to keep the site 'pure', but history tells us that music is an inveterate and lecherous cross-breeder (who woulda thunk that Robert Johnson would beget Led Zep).

 
ClapClapClapClapClap
 
One of the most sensible statements I have read in a long time.


Edited by Chris Stacey - August 25 2008 at 05:35
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 09:49
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I don't think that these definitions apply to all jazz rock ... Candy Dulfer (as mentioned by Dick Heath) might be an extreme example, but I guess I have a point. Somewhere between Mahavishnu Orchestra and Candy Dulfer there's a - admittedly fuzzy - boundary between prog and non-prog.


And then you have jazz musicians who simply don't keep still, shifting into and out of jazz-rock/fusion, e.g. Chick Corea. For instance I don't think any of the recent Allan Holdsworth studio albums are jazz rock - jazz fusion (minus rock) for sure) but there area heap of live recordings that have that rock element....And how to label Terj Rypdal when he decides he's writing 'serious music' for classical orchestras??? ETC..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 10:16
^ of course. Usually when I speak of artists in genre discussions I mean the most appropriate album from their discographies.Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 13:22
I think the classical music angle is often overlooked.  I'm thinking of quintessential proto - prog group The Nice in particular.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2008 at 22:22
Not all jazz-fusion is prog, thats right in my point of view. However, artists like Miles and Herbie have (in some albums) that progressiveness (if we may call it so) in their works, thats why I allways thought Miles Davis should've been added to here, and now my wish has come true! (no thanks to me, thats for sure) BUT! we have to be more carefull in which way we think of

 ONE: which elements qualify to be considered prog in jazz-fusion(ex: is it only rock inclusion?)
 TWO: we have to be carefull in the way we see JAZZ (as a whole movement) in the light of progressive rock (I know you might think its the same than the first question I made, but it isn't.) (ex: if Miles can be included, then can Charlie Parker be included? If Blood, Sweat and Tears is included then should Chicago be included? WOW is this question a mind-job? Hope not.)
THREE AND FINAL: as mentioned before, I'm afraid that if we start REALLY thinking about this whole questioning-of-groups-to-be-included-deal, too much...we might have to think in reformulate some sub-genres, or the entire approach to progressive-rock this site has.


Edited by LeInsomniac - August 25 2008 at 22:24

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2008 at 00:19
Progressive Hiphop?
 
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2008 at 00:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Progressive Hiphop?
 
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Iván


Umm you mean suggestions for new bands you haven't heard?Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2008 at 01:09
Jazz Rock/Fusion definition: Sometimes includes progressive jazz. This style fuses traditional jazz arrangements, instruments, and performance style with elements of progressive rock. The result is usually instrumental jazz-rock with a somewhat more technical and complex edge. Very interesting to listen to - especially if you are a musician who marvels at the amazing virtuosity of some of these artists.


seems to me the issue of which artists to add to JR/F is up to our more than qualified team.. what does interest me is the JR/F definition which, if taken to the letter, specifies the genre  "..fuses trad jazz with elements of progressive rock".   This suggests artists similar to, say, RTF, Holdsworth and Bruford are to be favored as artists with prog elements, and that the larger spectrum of 'jazz rock' may be excluded.  I don't know if this is the case but it does cause ambiguity.




Edited by Atavachron - August 26 2008 at 01:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2008 at 08:07
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Jazz Rock/Fusion definition: Sometimes includes progressive jazz. This style fuses traditional jazz arrangements, instruments, and performance style with elements of progressive rock.


 
 
This is an interesting definition. Traditional or 'trad' jazz  refers to the New Orleans sound of the 1920s and 30s. Quite different to jazz rock fusion I always thought.  I would agree that trad jazz's exchanges of improvised solos was of importance.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2008 at 14:28
Tongue Don't worry Iván, that was merely a joke based on another thread. Read what I think about this in the "Real problem with prog metal" thread created by the T.

Hope I didn't cause any heart complications...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2008 at 16:36
Liquid Tension Experiment anyone? that considered one of em?
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2008 at 05:33
Originally posted by Forsuna Forsuna wrote:

Liquid Tension Experiment anyone? that considered one of em?
Prog fusion yes. Jazz rock I don't think so - not overwhelmed by the  jazz chords?? Which takes us to Planet X/Derek Sherinian - does the introduction of Allan Holdsworth move the music from prog fusion to jazz rock fusion  - or does Holdsworth become more an individualist rock guitarist and it stays prog fusion????? Jazz purist wouldn't have truck with it. Remember one of several reasons Holdsworth left UK was that Jobson wanted the band to stick to the prepared arrangements with limited improv, Holdsworth wanted far more freedom. So how much of prog fusion band's gig will be repeated night after night on tour, how much is different every night? BTW in comparison, listening to a fair number of Hellborg/Lane/Sipe boots, I found there was a band that seemed to do most things different most nights. SImilarly Hellborg/Lanes' Indo jazz fusion recordings Icon (CD), Paris (DVD) differ greatly, as indeed these do from the BBC Radio 3 recording of the group in London.
 
PS
A decade agoI had a long correspondence with Steve Smith wrt the meaning of jazz rock/jazz fusion. Smith  has 8 or so parameters, which include jazz chords, swing, some elements of be bop, etc..... which he seems to stick to wrt his Tone Center recordings.


Edited by Dick Heath - August 29 2008 at 05:38
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