Jazz Fusion or Jazz Prog Fusion
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Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51162
Printed Date: December 27 2024 at 05:24
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Topic: Jazz Fusion or Jazz Prog Fusion
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Subject: Jazz Fusion or Jazz Prog Fusion
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 09:57
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This is a doubt I always had and would love some expert in the issue to explain me.
Is it enough for a band to have blend Jazz and Rock in order to be added to Prog Archives or do we need the band to blend Jazz, Rock and Prog Elements like Mahavishnu or Jean Luc Ponty for example?
If the first case, then we should modify our addition policy and add for example Dylan and Steelee Span to Folk, despite they don't have a single Prog element, because they already blended Folk and Rock.
I honestly believe we are going too far with our desire to add some Jazz-Rock artists when they should have somethinhg more to be considered Prog.....But I leave this to the experts, because I'm not one of them.
Iván ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 12:10
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'Jazz rock' has always been about the fusion of 'jazz' elements and 'rock' elements into the hybrid. 'Progressive music' was originally the fusion of 'rock' with any one or more types of music, in the 60's often for the first time - whether folk, jazz, classical (here including either use of classical compositions or classical music structures to a new composition), folk, various world (folk) musics, etc. In other words 'jazz rock 'was both a sub-division of 'progressive music' and 'jazz'. . Around 1970 there was a parting of the ways of 'progressive music', into the more familar commonplace 'progressive rock', 'folk rock', 'heavy rock', etc. - and certainly MO, RTF, WR released albums afterwards which still retained creditability as 'progressive rock'. To a large extent is is the slow loss of much and often all of the rock elements, (apart from the element of amplification) moved 'jazz rock' into 'jazz fusion' (to added confusion since 'jazz rock' was literally a fusion of genres...... hence the better term 'jazz-rock-fusion') . But then a lot of Soft Machine's recording catalogue into the 70's has less rock than most other examples of the "'jazz-rock' fraternity.... (BTW I'm remain confused as to where 'Art -Rock' fits in here???)
I think see where you're coming from Ivan, but I am sticking with the 60's original useage of 'jazz rock', rather the useage corrupted by the rethink of what/who defined 'progressive rock' circa 1972-3, when the big players were becoming established, e.g. Yes, KC, GG, Genesis, VdGG, and definitions got really narrowed down. Hence, I'm looking/listening for a fusion of jazz and rock, not more specifically jazz and progressive rock. One problem is many of the jazz rock musicians shifted into jazz-fusion sans rock late 70's early 80's to retain their jazz creditials - and we are stuck with that policy: the complete discography - which means very strangely Kind Of Blue greets you on the opening page to this site this week????????????????????????????????????????????????? Fortunately we have had musicians whohaven't bowed down to fashions, and jazz rock has continued to progress to this very day. BTW I would feel very unhappy if prog fusion became dominant, since since too often this is no more than instrumental progressive rock, lacking jazz.. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 12:16
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Edit : Not all jazz fusion is progressive, I've been playing and listening to jazz fusion since the stuff was invented. In the 'business' we call lame fusion 'fuzak' after the background music company muzak.
Herbie and Miles are excellent examples of progressive jazz fusion. All that commercial crap that came out in the late 70s early 80s is a good example of fuzak. Thank goodness for the Knitting Factory scene (John Zorn, Steve Coleman etc) in the mid-80s which reintroduced progressive jazz fusion. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 12:31
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Dick Heath wrote:Posted By: mr70s
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 12:37
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In the 70s and 80s, there was never any talk of including jazz fusion or jazz rock under the prog umbrella.
Could it be that prog should actually be included under the jazz rock umbrella ?
 |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 12:43
Well, as long as I remember, Mahavishnu was always considered a Prog band.
I know all of this is technicall, maybe we should work the forum in three separete fields as Proggnosis:
Each one with it's related and Proto categories, because as I see, in the actual way it's not working. Iván
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:01
Speaking as someone who became a fan of prog in the late '70's all of the following top albums from the '70's were considered prog in my circle of prog loving friends. 4.47 MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA Birds of Fire (1973) 4.50 DI MEOLA, AL Elegant Gypsy (1977) 4.45 BRUFORD, BILL One of a Kind (1979) 4.45 SANTANA Caravanserai (1972) 4.32 MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA Inner Mounting Flame (1971) 4.53 RETURN TO FOREVER Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy (1973) 4.48 COBHAM, BILLY Spectrum (1973) 4.52 PONTY, JEAN-LUC Enigmatic Ocean (1977) 4.39 RETURN TO FOREVER Romantic Warrior (1976) 4.25 BRAND X Unorthodox Behaviour (1976) Looking at the list, they all do have plenty of rock elements in them. Frankly I don't mind if a little jazz sneaks its way into this site. Balances out the metal. Uh-oh, someone just reviewed Someday My Prince Will Come. There goes the neighborhood.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:19
 This is also what I always thought ... I also see these three major categories. *Maybe* Avant-Garde would make sense as a 4th major category. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:33
also, i dont particularly like the idea of the jazz-rock/fusion genre being split up. there would be so much arguing because it is such a varied genre. also having 'prog-jazz' and 'jazz-rock/fusion' might cause newbies to only check out prog-jazz and not the other, which probably would include prog jazz bands anyway. I also agree with whoever said prog-jazz is nothing more than instrumental progressive rock without the jazz. there are a few culprits on this site (not whole discographies, just an album or 2) ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:45
| Although I understand the gravity of such distinctions, I believe the more urgent question is whether it's jazz-blues or blues-jazz. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:46
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Personally I think in a confused and accidentally way we have come out with a good compromise, affected by the policy limitations of this site. Jazz rock fusion might be bent and buckled to fit mnay variations of terminology but it is functional and it isn't broke. So let's not trying fixing, until some majority thinking and refurbishment is done to the whole of the site.
------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 17:46
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jazz is like a shape shifter. It can become anything it want to. It can blend in with your favorite music genre. Metal, rock, world music, funk, rap, hip hop, folk, pop, and so many others can be under the disguise of jazz and vise-versa. this may be why there has been a lot of debate about recent Jazz-rock/fusion additions and possible additions. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 18:22
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John Scofield is a jazz-rock/fusion artists. Been making jazz-rock since the 70s. Same with a guy like Mike Stern. But would they make more sense to be added to this site if we split the genre up? i think so. Right now they wouldnt make sense because they are not necessarily prog. And they both played with Miles Davis, but it would be ridiculous to add them as 'prog-related', since they are jazz musicians. my point is, is that if the genre was split up, i think a lot more non-prog jazz-rock/fusion bands and artists would be able to be added because the 'jazz-fusion' section would be open for basically anyone who made any kind of jazz-fusion, prog or not. the 'prog-jazz-rock' section would actually be more strict on who gets in, because a certain kind of standard is set for that sub-section. The way it works right now is fine IMO because bands and artists can get in, as long as there are some criteria met. This happened to the prog metal section and the site is now flooded with IMO too many non-prog metal bands. It seems any metal band with a lot of technical skills and 'epic' songwriting can get in. If this happens to the jazz-rock section, any jazz artist or band that uses an electric piano, and a rock beat would be able to get in. you dont see John Scofield, Mike Stern, Jaco Pastorius, Herbie Mann, Steve Jenkins, George Duke, Scott Henderson (Tribal Tech), George Benson, Joe Farrell, and many more who made many excellent jazz-rock recordings, on this site. But they ARE jazz-rock artists. And some played with bands or artists who ARE here. But their music does not really have many 'prog' elements. But if the split were to happen, you will easily see most (if not all) of these artists added, and this will give rise to even MORE arguing and disagreements. I would love to see one or 2 of those guys I mentioned added, but I know there would not be enough support. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 18:40
exactly... the way it works now is fine... the site has a lot of knowledgeable people who know the distinction... think it is no coincidence that those who know jazz best... and know those subtle distinctions.. are the ones spearheading the current wave of J-R additions and proposals and not bitching about it hahha.. and note.. not one so far has been rejected since this wave was unleashed with the addition of Davis by the ultimate rear-guard in all this.... the sites two experts par excellence... Martin and Richard. All the additions.. and so far all the proposals.. have been excellent ones.. and one's within the scope of the site. Well done everyone... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 18:45
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I don't like where this is heading. Let me try to rephrase Iván's question: "Is all of Jazz-Fusion Prog?" I don't think so. Imagine that the prog metal team would say: All technical Thrash/Death metal is prog. I don't think this is a sane thing to do, and neither is to include all Jazz Fusion or Jazz-Rock. Just my two cents ... since I'm still a newbie when it comes to Jazz-Fusion, feel free to ignore this post, but maybe some of you might agree. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 18:52
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what kind of answer are you looking for... this is just a creative way to bitch about Miles Davis or a direction you don't like isn't it.. the answer is a simple one no... all fusion is not prog... that is what we have genre teams for.. they evaluate the music on it's merits.. and decide if it belongs on the site or not. you should know that.... is all complex metal prog? Ask Ivan... is all symphonic rock prog? We all evaluate it.. based on our notion of the sub.. and prog. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 18:53
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^ So you agree with my statement? (not all Jazz-Fusion is prog)
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 18:56
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read the last post in the HH thread... of course I agree... but note... I am not an official member of that team... I only propose.. they dispose. My opinion is irrelevant. I trust the team to decide what is best for the site... just as I do with you and PM addtions. I do hope that trust is mutual on your end. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: mr70s
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 19:55
| Shame about the jazz rock fusion artists John Scofield and Mike Stern not quite fitting in the jazz rock fusion category.....Similarly, while Return To Forever slots in neatly, Bill Connors gets left out in the cold. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 20:37
i said that in my earlier post not all jazz-rock/fusion is prog. but all the non-prog ones would be added if the genre was split the way Ivan described. And i meant no offense to what I said about the prog metal split, but it's true.
all those artists could technically be added under prog-related, because they are. But it wouldn't quite make sense because they would be under jazz-rock if not for the fact that this is a prog rock site. They all have a few prog songs, but i dont think that's enough to be added, unless im mistaken??  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 22:13
Let's use the Venn diagrams to make it easy: (Sorry for the quality of colors, I'm not an expert:
  In theory, we should only add to Prog Fusion the red section, the yellow one to Prog Fusion Related or maybe another variety of Fusion, and completely ignore the the rest, including simple Jazz Rock in blue..
Am I OK?
Are we doing this?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 22:15
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I've tried to articulate this before, perhaps unsuccessfully, so I'll try it again. For those of us who were listening to prog in the late-60's/early-70's, it was virtually a natural progression that we would start listening to fusion (RTF, WR, Miles, HH), because just at the time that traditional progressive-rock was stagnating, fusion was growing its wings; and, lo, it had many of the same characteristics that we loved in progressive rock: complex songs and way-competent musicianship, opening our minds to really endless new possibilities. I remember seeing Mahavishnu O opening for ELP 'round about '72, if you get my drift. I can't tell you much about the people who frequent this site, but I can tell you that if they found their way here at all it is because they are inclined to like 'challenging' music, which I would think would include fusion and even traditional jazz. (Jeez, I stumbled upon the site looking for a Rush review (hardly my definition of a 'pure' prog band)). Hence there is a fusion category here. I agree it is disorienting to see Kind of Blue there as the most popular album, but that will eventually fade and we'll see We Want Miles up there. History sez that during the time frame in question there was cross-pollination that made categorization next to impossible. I understand the impulse to keep the site 'pure', but history tells us that music is an inveterate and lecherous cross-breeder (who woulda thunk that Robert Johnson would beget Led Zep). |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 22:26
very well said, and what a great time when bands as MO and ELP both on one bill was common.. but what's you're opinion on whether artists who didn't do Prog or JR/F per se should be added to the site; i.e. Herbie Hancock who did fusion of all sorts involving jazz, world, funk, experimental, ambient, rock, etc. but who was not seen as a 'Jazz Rock/Fusion' artist the way Di Meola or Bruford were..? |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 22:30
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 22:35
I am mixed on Herbie. I don't see the rock component there; I see him more funk-influened as in Sly Stone or Ohio Players or EW&F. But as I just posted in another sub-forum if he's here I don't have a problem with that, but ya better start looking at Keith Jarret as well (the masterful solo albums especially).
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 23:07
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^ guess Keith will be next on the firing line after HH.  however....as I posted earlier... there is a subtlety to the additions and proposals so far.... anyone sharp enough to pick up on it.. and where Jarret is in the same mold as a very famous... prominent though . controversial fixture of the J-R/F sub-genre bonus points for being close... and yes... he would be a great addition... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 23:24
I'm just thinking of the big four keyboard players that came out of the Miles bands: Corea, Zawinul, Hancock, Jarrett. Probably get me in trouble, but one for all and all for one. These guys basically wrote the book on fusion keyboards in the '70's.
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Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 23:28
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not quite sure what i would say about that, but so that i can get an understanding would any of you call joe satriani prog? ------------- i luv prog |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 23:31
Being a keyboard player, I generally pay no attention to what's happening on the guitar end
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 23:32
| I saw yes and the eagles together in richmond virginia way back when, can the eagles get on and .......nevermind |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 23:38
Satch came up about about six months ago.. I believe the feeling among members and Collabs was that he was excellent instrumental rock and albums as Time Machine, Engines of Creation (maybe others as Extremist) were indeed progressive, certainly compared to his more commercial stuff, but not really prog.. but as things evolove here, you never know... |
Posted By: ShW1
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 01:35
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1. I guess Jazz-rock has always something that 'falls between the chairs' in terms of categoration...
I'm not a Jazz rock expert, far from that, but I would suggest that complex structures of jazz-rock would considered to be belong here, while more simple structures would not... the rock elements are less important here IMHO (thank you Ivan for the Vann diagrams...
2. While deeling with this issue I have a question that I think of a long time, I'm not sure this is the right place to ask it, but I'll try nevertheless, and I hope some of the experts/collabs will answer: Why is Chick Corea, and few of his albums are not included here? I do not mean the pure jazz albums of course, but Ilbums such as 'Spanish Heart' and 'mad Hatter' are got to be here IMHO ...
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Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 02:36
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I don't understand the difference between Progressive Jazz Fusion and Progressive Fusion Related. I feel that a majority of the groups that are in the Prog Jazz/Fusion category fit more appropriately with the term Progressive Fusion.
Groups that are clearly in the rock idiom, but display much technical understanding and showmanship. Jazz-Rock and Jazz Fusion (or Progressive Fusion as I believe it to be) are completely different in my book. One is jazz based with rock influence (like middle era miles, Tony Williams Lifetime, early Larry Coryell, maybe even John Abercrombie's Gateway albums) the other is in rock form but takes a portion of influence from Jazz music. (Jean Luc-Ponty, most Return to Forever, Colosseum, Al Di Meola solo, Jeff Beck, Brand X, etc). Then there is a whole other level that could be considered Jazz or Rock fusion. A group that is based in one form or the other but takes influence from many sources, not just jazz or rock. Like Jon Hassel, Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra, a good amount of McLaughlin's solo material... All of these styles while different are able to coexist in one lump. So, I think a split up would be a bit too much and feel that since the groups are all in the same place anyone is able to tell the difference between the different groups styles. I have absolutely no problem with the allowing of certain artists. Keep up the good work. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 02:46
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*sigh* ... I wish that one of the experts here could finally say something about the true question asked by Iván and myself: "Is all of Jazz-Fusion Prog?" ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 03:04
As I recall back in the day, Manhattan Transfer was certainly jazz fusion and certainly not prog, if that thought lends any clarification... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 03:44
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Let's have a look at the current definition: "Jazz Rock/Fusion definition: Sometimes includes progressive jazz. This style fuses traditional jazz arrangements, instruments, and performance style with elements of progressive rock. The result is usually instrumental jazz-rock with a somewhat more technical and complex edge. Very interesting to listen to - especially if you are a musician who marvels at the amazing virtuosity of some of these artists." I think it would be really helpful if that definition could be expanded, explaining the difference between the kind of fusion that can be included here and non-prog fusion. Perhaps, to get things started, the experts of the genre could list some fusion artists/albums which should not be included. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: mr70s
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 07:16
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Let's just throw open the flood gates to all jazz rock fusion. After all, there's always an element of rock, and it is progressive (by strict definition). |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 08:24
------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 08:29
Kenny G and Candy Dulfer are obvious, but while enjoying Yellowjackets they would squeeze on to the list - but I'm listening right now to their latest with Mike Stern guesting and suddenly more jazzrock.... Many of artists signed to GRP and Stretch Records in the last 20 years might be checked out for crediability ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 08:37
Good idea the diagram - although we probably need it to go into the 4th dimension to take care of the prime musical contributors. However, I've never seen prog as a major musical genre like jazz, rock, folk, world folk, classical, etc. - hence to me prog is the shaded zones when the major genres intermesh with rock. Hence for example that early form of jazz fusion, Indo jazz fusion would be formed by the intermeshing of jazz and world music/sub-set Indian. In other words:damned complex to produce as a simple diagram ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 08:38
indeed much of it by default - unlike a lot of latterday progressive rock...... ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 08:55
I agree with you Dick, surely Prog is not a separete genre from Rock, but I'm only trying to represent the three main elements present in the Fusion I believe we should place emphasis.
And of course this is a simplification, a complete chart would have to add Folk and Psyche to create Canterbury (for exampe).
But I'm happy the idea is got despite the simplistich diagram.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 09:00
Why ... and by which definition? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 14:43
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i think i said it a few times now. Not all jazz-rock/fusion is prog. it depends on the band/artist and even sometimes the album (would you call RTF's first 2 albums prog? Great music, and it is jazz-rock, but prog it is not)
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 14:45
id be up to the task of re-writing a jazz-rock/fusion definition. maybe i'll compile a list when i get home from work ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: mr70s
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 16:00
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Let's just throw open the flood gates to all jazz rock fusion. After all, there's always an element of rock, and it is progressive (by strict definition). Why ... and by which definition? Jazz rock fusion is progressive in the sense that it was, and remains in a constant state of flux.
For example, we could apply any of these defintions :
favoring or promoting progress
gradually advancing in extent describing action that is on-going progress and reform We could debate the result of these changes endlessly, but what can not be denied is that in the strict sense of the meaning, jazz rock fusion is progressive.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 16:24
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^ I don't think that these definitions apply to all jazz rock ... Candy Dulfer (as mentioned by Dick Heath) might be an extreme example, but I guess I have a point. Somewhere between Mahavishnu Orchestra and Candy Dulfer there's a - admittedly fuzzy - boundary between prog and non-prog.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Desoc
Date Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:31
5. Progressive Electronica 6. Progressive Folk 7. Progressive Hiphop I thought this was what the subcategories were for. But then again, I've always viewed the constraint in this site that all artists should have a base in rock, as quite narrow. And progressive has nothing to do with narrowness. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 25 2008 at 05:09
 One of the most sensible statements I have read in a long time. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 25 2008 at 09:49
And then you have jazz musicians who simply don't keep still, shifting into and out of jazz-rock/fusion, e.g. Chick Corea. For instance I don't think any of the recent Allan Holdsworth studio albums are jazz rock - jazz fusion (minus rock) for sure) but there area heap of live recordings that have that rock element....And how to label Terj Rypdal when he decides he's writing 'serious music' for classical orchestras??? ETC.. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 25 2008 at 10:16
^ of course. Usually when I speak of artists in genre discussions I mean the most appropriate album from their discographies.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: mr70s
Date Posted: August 25 2008 at 13:22
| I think the classical music angle is often overlooked. I'm thinking of quintessential proto - prog group The Nice in particular. |
Posted By: LeInsomniac
Date Posted: August 25 2008 at 22:22
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Not all jazz-fusion is prog, thats right in my point of view. However, artists like Miles and Herbie have (in some albums) that progressiveness (if we may call it so) in their works, thats why I allways thought Miles Davis should've been added to here, and now my wish has come true! (no thanks to me, thats for sure) BUT! we have to be more carefull in which way we think of ONE: which elements qualify to be considered prog in jazz-fusion(ex: is it only rock inclusion?) TWO: we have to be carefull in the way we see JAZZ (as a whole movement) in the light of progressive rock (I know you might think its the same than the first question I made, but it isn't.) (ex: if Miles can be included, then can Charlie Parker be included? If Blood, Sweat and Tears is included then should Chicago be included? WOW is this question a mind-job? Hope not.) THREE AND FINAL: as mentioned before, I'm afraid that if we start REALLY thinking about this whole questioning-of-groups-to-be-included-deal, too much...we might have to think in reformulate some sub-genres, or the entire approach to progressive-rock this site has. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LeInsomniac/?chartstyle=volta"> 
Happy Family One Hand Clap, Four Went On But None Came Back |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 00:19
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Progressive Hiphop?
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 00:28
Umm you mean suggestions for new bands you haven't heard? ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 01:09
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Jazz Rock/Fusion definition:
Sometimes includes progressive jazz. This style fuses traditional jazz
arrangements, instruments, and performance style with elements of
progressive rock. The result is usually instrumental jazz-rock with a
somewhat more technical and complex edge. Very interesting to listen to
- especially if you are a musician who marvels at the amazing
virtuosity of some of these artists. seems to me the issue of which artists to add to JR/F is up to our more than qualified team.. what does interest me is the JR/F definition which, if taken to the letter, specifies the genre "..fuses trad jazz with elements of progressive rock". This suggests artists similar to, say, RTF, Holdsworth and Bruford are to be favored as artists with prog elements, and that the larger spectrum of 'jazz rock' may be excluded. I don't know if this is the case but it does cause ambiguity. |
Posted By: mr70s
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 08:07
This is an interesting definition. Traditional or 'trad' jazz refers to the New Orleans sound of the 1920s and 30s. Quite different to jazz rock fusion I always thought. I would agree that trad jazz's exchanges of improvised solos was of importance.
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Posted By: Desoc
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 14:28
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Don't worry Iván, that was merely a joke based on another thread. Read what I think about this in the "Real problem with prog metal" thread created by the T. Hope I didn't cause any heart complications... |
Posted By: Forsuna
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 16:36
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Liquid Tension Experiment anyone? that considered one of em? ------------- www.myspace.com/forsuna |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 29 2008 at 05:33
Prog fusion yes. Jazz rock I don't think so - not overwhelmed by the jazz chords?? Which takes us to Planet X/Derek Sherinian - does the introduction of Allan Holdsworth move the music from prog fusion to jazz rock fusion - or does Holdsworth become more an individualist rock guitarist and it stays prog fusion????? Jazz purist wouldn't have truck with it. Remember one of several reasons Holdsworth left UK was that Jobson wanted the band to stick to the prepared arrangements with limited improv, Holdsworth wanted far more freedom. So how much of prog fusion band's gig will be repeated night after night on tour, how much is different every night? BTW in comparison, listening to a fair number of Hellborg/Lane/Sipe boots, I found there was a band that seemed to do most things different most nights. SImilarly Hellborg/Lanes' Indo jazz fusion recordings Icon (CD), Paris (DVD) differ greatly, as indeed these do from the BBC Radio 3 recording of the group in London.
PS
A decade agoI had a long correspondence with Steve Smith wrt the meaning of jazz rock/jazz fusion. Smith has 8 or so parameters, which include jazz chords, swing, some elements of be bop, etc..... which he seems to stick to wrt his Tone Center recordings. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: August 30 2008 at 00:34
| In an interview Scott Henderson says what an audience hears in Pittsburgh won`t be what they hear in Cleveland. Improvisation. The last Tribal Tech albums were just that. The listener benefits. Pinning down genres is like trying to catch soap bubbles. Led Zeppelin........fusion of blues and jazz |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 30 2008 at 03:48
I'm not sure that the listener always benefits from improvisation ... it highly depends on the musicians. Some are extremely good at it (Scott Henderson is one of the best IMO), others are not ... for example I'm a really big fan of John Petrucci and I think that he's currently one of the absolute best guitarists out there when it comes to both technique and writing interesting riffs and solos, but when it comes to improvising I haven't heard anything yet which exactly blew me away. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 30 2008 at 04:15
Not even Petrucci's improvisation on In The Name Of God on Live at Budokan?  -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 30 2008 at 04:21
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^ it's great, just not compared to what Scott Henderson is capable of.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 30 2008 at 04:59
I agree too. Indeed, I have yet to hear an improvisation by Petrucci that could surpass anything Shawn Lane for eg, could do. -------------
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Posted By: mr70s
Date Posted: August 30 2008 at 05:37
I agree too. Indeed, I have yet to hear an improvisation by Petrucci that could surpass anything Shawn Lane for eg, could do. You might have a long wait......
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Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 30 2008 at 16:02
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i agree ------------- i luv prog |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: September 03 2008 at 01:31
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it's true, there must be a decent level of improvisation for a band to be a real jazz-rock band. the example of LTE is good in that they are prog fusion (but they do have some jazz moments here and there, and they do improvise) but the music really is just heavy prog fusion DT style
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 11:55
This is confused.
Jazz has always been considered as an off shoot from blues!
Also note: the British Godfathers of blues, Cecil Davis and Alexis Korner had done blues with a strong basis of jazz playing, as Blues Incorporated in the early 60's, as indeed Graham Bond (and his Organisation) were doing this around the same time (and some time member of Organisation, John McLaughlin was in demand as much as Jimmy Page as a session guitarist - you can imagine them meeting talking......). Then John Mayall shifted from his British blues period of mid to the end of the 60's to "blues without bashing" of the early 70's when he shifted his base to the USA, again re-emphasising the jazz elements of blues. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 12:33
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I like Scott Henderson, but even his improv runs dangerously close to "Adult Contemporary". For my money, Holdsworth has more to offer with his improvs and veers away from sounding mainstream. It was one of the primary reasons he only lasted in UK for 1 album. On the subject of wicked Jazz guitarists, what does everybody think of Alex Machacek? And why has he not been added to the site? BTW Easy Money, I love the term "Fuzak". I always wondered what to call it when I mention fusion and somebody responds with, "Oh, you mean like 4 Play and Kenny Gee and Tom Scott?" ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 17:22
Proposed him up quite some time ago but these things take time and volunteers. Check out his Austrian band McHacek (different spelling) Featuring Ourselves released 98 or 99 ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 17:26
I'm confused - jazz in Zep? where? to me it's blues, blues, and more blues. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 17:43
it's hard to hear on the studio LPs but as a long time collector of Zep, erm, 'private releases', I can assure you many of their live extended jams, particularly Bonham's approach to soloing, is straight from the modern jazz of the 1950s and 60s ..it's only evident if you've heard a lot of Peterson, Tyner, Coltrane, etc., ..and remember Page and Jones were seasoned studio vets versed in standard Jazz technique by the time Zep formed (first as 'the New Yardbirds' then jokingly 'the Knobs' for a brief time) though it's true they primarily played blues |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 22:50
| That Allman boy was quite an improviser. Boy howdy. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 01:22
| Zeppelin were not jazzy?? Listen to the bootlegs! Too late to go to the concert. No quarter |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 02:37
Have it, very Zappa/Holdsworth influenced. SIC he really does his own thing. Improvision is currently on a UPS truck somewhere on its way to me. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: splyu
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 03:49
Personally, I would agree with both of those statements! Obviously - and this can be observed time and again on this board - everybody has their own idea of what constitutes prog. However, let's look at it this, admittedly simplified, way: symphonic prog = rock + classical jazz fusion = rock + jazz How, then, is one more prog than the other? Is jazz inherently less prog than classical? I'd think both are vitally important influences to prog rock. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 08:34
No argument wrt Holdsworth/zappa - a number of reviewers stated the album smacked of the Ruth Underwood period Mothers fronted by Holdsworth (including me), which propelled Alex into avoiding the Holdsworthian stuff on subsequent recordings (unlike a number of other Holdsworthian guitarists I could mention). It inevitably with the two albums done with Terry Bozzio (Delete & Roll and [sic]) that he hasn't completely escaped the dense Zappareque polyrhythms. Improvisation was one of my favourites last year - I believe Abstract Logix may have follow up, although in the meanwhile they have issued a live recording of Alex (as MP3s) recently and recorded earlier this year ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 08:39
Minor correction I might suggest: 'jazz fusion' is jazz fused with any other form or forms of music, e.g. rock, serious/classical, Indian/raga/Quawesi, Japanese, Arabic etc. First use of the term was probably with Joe Harriott/John Mayer's Double Quintet's Indo Jazz Fusion album in 1966
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0000251U9/sr=8-1/qid=1220963888/ref=dp_image_0/026-4471661-9028427?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music&qid=1220963888&sr=8-1">  ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 19:29
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Wait, I've got it! Let's call it Fuzz.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: DataBase
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:14
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Jazz Fusion? or Jazz(psychedelics influenced) Fusion?
Confluence-Chroniques Terrestres(1979), Pataphonie-Le Matin Blanc(1979), Le Grand Nebuleux-Les pirates du cortex(1978) & Plat du Jour-s/t(1977) are good examples of Progressive Fusion just from 70's France. Sometimes playing straight jazz fusion and sometimes opting for total chaos.
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Posted By: DataBase
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:25
Transit Express-Opus progressif(1976) could also be included. Sadly only one of the afore mentioned bands is listed in the PROGsemiARCHIVES.
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 22:21
ohhh....I get it. You are taking the first 2 letters of fusion and putting them together with the last 2 letters of Jazz to make Fuzz. That sounds like a great idea, but you are leaving rock out of it. Poor rock. I know, instead let's do the same thing with the last 2 letters of rock instead and call it Fu....uh...oh,maybe your idea is better. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 22:30
Despite the number of guys out there that can be considered Holdsworth clones, I still really dig the warmth of that type of solo (I have been trying for years to get that tone out of my guitars). That tone works with just about any genre for soloing. Featuring Ourselves is still my favorite of the 2 I have. Though my jaw still drops every time I hear the wickedly fast harmonics on the opening number of SIC. From the clips I have heard of Improvision, I think it well get some heavy play when it gets here. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |