ProgArchives.com - what's in a name...

the problem with the prog related category is that almost every band that developted a new genre or style has influenced prog artists that would follow. for instance, when speaking of progressive black metal bands you cannot ignore Mayhem's influence on them since MAYHEM INVENTED BLACK METAL. So can someone please add Mayhem to this archive? or, come to think of it, Pain of Salvation's Scarsick has many rap metal/nu-metal influences. it's definetly related to Korn who INVENTED NU-METAL so why not add Korn to this archive since the influence it had on bands like Pain of Salvation or Meshuggah makes them related to prog. it's just like family relations:i'm related to my uncle but i'm not my father

^ it makes sense though to give some kind of ahead notice with such a high profile addition, just to avoid surprises and knee-jerk reactions.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ it makes sense though to give some kind of ahead notice with such a high profile addition, just to avoid surprises and knee-jerk reactions.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44837&PN=3

Page 3 and page 4... Short of putting up posters, or buying advertising space, I don't think Micky could've made it clearer than that.

Zarec wrote: the problem with the prog related category is that almost every band that developted a new genre or style has influenced prog artists that would follow. for instance, when speaking of progressive black metal bands you cannot ignore Mayhem's influence on them since MAYHEM INVENTED BLACK METAL. So can someone please add Mayhem to this archive? or, come to think of it, Pain of Salvation's Scarsick has many rap metal/nu-metal influences. it's definetly related to Korn who INVENTED NU-METAL so why not add Korn to this archive since the influence it had on bands like Pain of Salvation or Meshuggah makes them related to prog. it's just like family relations:i'm related to my uncle but i'm not my father

But herein lies the fallacy:  it is incorrect to say a particular band invented a given genre.  This is never the case.  To approximate the truth a bit more closely, we should say that a certain band (or bands) exemplified specific tendencies during a particular era.  Admittedly, this is a bit long-winded; however, it does carry greater precision than the former suggestion.

Kotro wrote: How lovely to arrive here after a hard day's work and find a topic we opened in the morning, moved to a place it doesn't belong to, it's title changed as to completely miss the point, and full of answers who clearly didn't read/didn't understand the opening post - in essence, to have one's words distorted.

Hawkwise wrote: i just found Beardfish and i like so thanks Prog Archives

you welcome... loved that group...  and a nicer group of guys you'll never meet.

and agree with the labels...   which I'll touch on in my my next post.....

Kotro wrote: How lovely to arrive here after a hard day's work and find a topic we opened in the morning, moved to a place it doesn't belong to, it's title changed as to completely miss the point, and full of answers who clearly didn't read/didn't understand the opening post - in essence, to have one's words distorted.    So typical ProgArchives - this is why I would never do a thing to change it.   However, allow me to clarify on a few points regarding misinterpretations of my opening post - some of them probably caused by my laziness to write long posts.   1 - The expression ArtRockArchives.com is there to express the way I always saw this site, a perception that is progressively being confirmed with every new addition (no pun intended). There was no suggestion made to rename the it - I did call it misleading and outdated, but also made clear it was a request for a change (it's way too late for that).   2 - I am not in any way ranting against the inclusion of David Bowie - I actually support it. My only complaint is that it's included in the terrible PR label. Should we still have the now-gone, sorely missed label Art-Rock, that is where I would like to see him best.   3 - I opened this topic partly because of finding a pleaid of Bowie reviews on the front page, partly for the memory it brought me from over 4 years ago when I first encounter this place. A place which I found amazingly usefull, but hardly perfect: first off, I expected to find only progressive rock - I soon found out that there was much more to it. Because to me, progressive rock is a very narrow term - a subgenre of Art Rock, on the same level as space-rock, Kraut, Canterbury and other sub-genres. I didn't expect to find a place where progressive-rock was considered the umbrella term or all these genres. What surprised me the most was actually finding Art-Rock as a sub-genre of Prog-Rock - something wasn't right, I thought - it is like stuffing the turkey with the oven instead of putting the turkey inside the oven. It was thus with mixed feelings that I witnessed the departure of the Art-Rock subgenre - glad that an error had been corrected, fearful of the confusion their replacements might bring. But that's another issue altogheter, far discussed and not of interest here. I applaud the inclusion of David Bowie as another step towards the tumbling down of the barriers set up by the limitations of the label Progressive Rock - it signals, in my view, a definite opening up to the broader world of Art-Rock, that still has so much to offer, and that has long been cut out. I just hope you don't stop with Bowie. By opening a title such as "ProgArchives.com is Dead - Long Live ArtRockArchives.com", I simply meant to applaud the death of the sprit behind the name, not the name itself, which is, after all, what atracted this immense community, and that will surely live on!   4 - Finally, anyone is entitled to find this discussion useless - and you can show it by ignoring this topic. I personaly find some contributions excellent and worthy of being build on, and the discussion (more of an academic thing than a practical one) interesting enough to last - I would like to think I am not alone in doing so.   P.S. - Oh, do remove this to a proper location - there is nothing in it aiming at "improving the site".

interesting post...

my thoughts.... I think 'Art Rock' has a place here... but the manner in which it would make great sense and could be of great use... simply isn't going to happen so not wasting my breath suggesting it.  This site is a black hole for forward thinking idea regarding improvement.

Yes...  Bowie does knock down a barrier or two.. which of course. .was intended... as was the last 'non-prog' addition I had my hands on.  People have this silly notion that prog is all about 18 minute epics and instrumental acrobatics... and they totallaly miss that they are some of the results.. of what prog really IS about.  Which Bowie typifies to a T... without resorting to what was..quickly becoming in the 70's  far from being progressive.. and led us down the road to where prog rock.. is now 'genrefied' rather than an earnest movement to bring art.. and to progress the 'same old sh*t' of rock music or prog rock.


Edited by micky - June 23 2008 at 19:18

Few quick notes
Inventing a genre or being an influence : Clapton was an influence on Iommi, as on many other guitarists. Clapton is not in PA, nor should he be. Cream, well, that would be a good discussion. Elvis, Chuck Berry, the Beach Boys, all had their part in contributing to much music that came after. Rush's first release was a single 45 of Buddy Holly's Not Fade Away. Buddy Holly is not here. .
PA inclusions - is it surprising that any new addition that has had a certain measure of commercial success (also know as a lot of fans) will generate a flood of reviews ? Ask yourself, if Yes or VDGG (for whatever reason) were just added this week, would you find it odd that PA members rushed to review the albums that could now be reviewed, or would we all go over our Tull/Gentle Giant/Rush discographies once more to see which we hadn't give an opinion on yet ?
Simply put - add a genre or band, fans then have the chance to review it for the first time.
Prog or not - is the site's goal "to be the most inclusive comprehensive" progressive music resource all that hard to understand ? Is  the reasoning for and description of Prog Related not clear ? Or to use a phrase I just read - "I can see you're confused. I'll use little words then"

Whether prog metal, prog related; if it's a new band with a few releases or a long overlooked music veteran, we can all expect to see reviews posted once they're in. The more fans here at PA, the more reviews that will generate. If you find that unjust, you are free to come back & post your take on any & all albums or groups that you wish. Heck, do a career overview, one album at a time, of Hawkwind. I'll do the same for Ange. Maybe Can deserves more front page time ... well submit a few reviews.
And if you want to be the 10000th person to critique Close to the Edge, more power to you. Who knows, maybe it gets one of us old fans to go back and listen to it again. WHo knows !


Edited by debrewguy - June 24 2008 at 11:47