ProgArchives.com - what's in a name...
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Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49656
Printed Date: February 09 2025 at 22:39
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: ProgArchives.com - what's in a name...
Posted By: Kotro
Subject: ProgArchives.com - what's in a name...
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 05:21
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... Long Live ArtRockArchives.com!
Far from me to call any shots regarding this matter, but this last inclusion of Bowie once more reminded me of how misleading and in need of update the name of our site is. This is not suggestion that the name be changed, though - personally I would never get used to it, plus I don't want to invoque the wrath of our members. Its just meant to open up a discussion on the merits or demerits of having a website named after a musical genre that then links to severall artists of different musical genres, some quite far from the classic definition of progressive rock. Surely I am not the only one finding this bit misleading...  ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Replies:
Posted By: GentleGiant
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 05:35
Maybe a new name : ProgRelatedArchives.com (the old progarchives is dead from 1-2 years) only in the few minds still exist. 
------------- BeGiantForADay "This British band is just the cup of tea for aficionados who demand virtuosity,progress and originality in their mix." http://rateyourmusic.com/~GentleG |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 05:35
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the name is only misleading if you disregard the genre labels ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aotm-2025-1/vote" rel="nofollow - 2025 Monthly Release Poll Listened to: 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:25
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hahahhah... oh goodie PA's might be dead... but it and it's posters didn't fail us this time. munch munch munch... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:28
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Sigh. David Bowie has been added in PROG-RELATED. That means he is related to prog, and not primarily prog himself. Related, right? Related. I am related to my uncle, but I am not my father. I am only related. I share some of the same heritage. The bottom line: the addition of an artist you don't approve of does not diminish the artists you consider prog. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:29
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I just wonder about one thing.. Which part of RELATED is so difficult to understand? |
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:31
Start another site and we'll compare
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:31
Sorry for the double post, but now I've really had it... If you are so disappointed, why do you keep posting here? Last time I looked, posting on this site hadn't been made mandatory
 ... |
GentleGiant wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:31
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now if it is an issue of whether we should be having PR additions here.... take that up with M@X.. I'm sure he'd give a sh*t what you all have to say as far as PR addtions go.... Bowie was a no brainer... if you have any knowledge of him or his music.. you'd know that to be true. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:34
I do have to agree with the broad slant of this post and as much as I love (some) of Bowie's work and would concede that say, 'Scary Monsters' - 'Outside' and at a pinch, - 'Low' could be considered 'proggy' his inclusion must be the ultimate 'Apres moi le deluge'  Contrary to what they themselves might think, I do have a lot of sympathy and admiration for the admin team who have the arduous task of attempting to keep 'PA' within some sort of manageable parameters. As you would expect this must be a very difficult undertaking, but with the plethora of metal related bands plus the latest inclusions of Roy Harper (prog dope !?) and now the thin white Duke it's like my old gran used to say: You can't put the poo back in the puppy......  Suggested new name for the site: Everything bar the kitchen sink (pending approval) Archives ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:36
Exactly. I've been telling people for a long time to address a petition to our owners in order to remove PP and PR, if they are so offensive to them. Of course, it's much easier to complain than to take action... However, I won't stand and see people insulted as I was on several occasions in the past because no one has the guts to address the question directly. You disagree with those categories? Do something, instead of picking on people who add bands or artists LEGITIMATELY.
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:36
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So, Mr Lemming, you consider three of his albums 'proggy', yet don't think Bowie is prog-related? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:39
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forgetting of course.... just what IS prog... for that ... he could have.. in fact WAS going to be added in a fully prog sub.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:40
And that wouldn't have been a problem. This site is avowedly comprehensive, which means it is inclusive. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:44
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he addition was handled by a score of collabs and in the end... we felt the Bowie was so eclectic and so progressive that he didn't fit any of the subs... and with an artist of his stature.. that was a must.. so he went into PR where he had been accepted by the management. He was accepted by the management.. and many of the site's collabs... instead of bitching people.. .maybe it might do well to explore his music.. and find out why so many were completely in favor of his addition.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:47
| I count at least three albums from his first period, much of his second period and two or three albums from his latter days that ought to be of real interest to prog fans. Added to this, his music was instrumental in shaping much experimental and prog rock. Great to see him here, thanks to the collabs. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:50
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^ exactly... this was not some fanboy fav addtion flimsily done up on the case of an album or two... but over many years of work.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 06:55
| I must admit Admin are doing an excellent job. Remember the storm of protest when Black Sabbath were accepted? I certainly felt like protesting myself! Anyway, suitable reasons why BS ought to be on ProgArchives were duly provided, and does this mean our site is now being swamped by gonzoid Hard Rock? Of course not! Symphonic Prog, Space Rock, Italian Prog etc. still rule the roost – as well as, admittedly, Prog Metal. I really see no need to complain about a drop in standards. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 07:06
I think that 'prog related' is in danger of being used as a 'catch-all' genre with which to appease the lobbyists from those quarters of the traditional rock community who wish to see their favorite artists included in 'PA' Yes, you are right I do think that some of Bowie's work is 'proggy' but might it perhaps not be better to appraise this 'prog related' genre on an album by album basis ? e.g. as much as the Beatles catalogue from say 67-70 is important to prog, what some people on PA object to is having to wade through reviews of the fab four's merseybeat 3 minute pop song albums from an earlier period. (They ain't remotely relevant) I am sure there are loads of other examples of bands and artists who 'dabbled' in prog territory for a short period (e.g. Beach Boys, Zombies, Easybeats etc) and this work should of course be included on PA but only if the album(s) in question are deemed admissible by the admin team. How hard is that ? -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 07:39
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For me it's really just a simple matter of enjoying the stuff you like, ignoring the stuff you don't, trying things you don't know anything about that intrigue you. Granted, the flood of reviews that will be pouring out the next few days will be rather hard to ignore. You'll find plenty around here who find enough of his output prog enough for his inclusion. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 07:43
Thank you... 
What are you after..?
Nicely put  ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 07:44
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 07:55
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Prog Rock is a form of Art Rock - what's the problem? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 07:56
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"this was not some fanboy fav addtion" AH HA! So they finally admit that this type of addition does happen. Now all we need is a list of which ones are which. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 08:00
^Well, that depends on how you define Prog or Prog-Related...  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 08:01
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as to Bowie: the archives rule is that even only 1 prog album is enough for the inclusion. Bowie certainly qualifies with "Lodger", which is a full-fledged prog album; if you doubt this I recommend listening to it again. and "Heroes" and "Low" are just short off the mark to be fully prog, in my opinion. so I would not even have a problem with Bowie being included fully instead of under related only
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 08:31
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In my opinion DAVID BOWIE is 100% Prog!
Like... LOU REED!
And PA is alway PA because in this case the place for Bowie is clear PR. In fact not for all Bowie is Prog. But for 60/70% of PA members is Prog. And this is a clear case of an artist for PA but inserted in PR! ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 08:33
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That's funny because to my ears Low and Heroes are more prog than Lodger. And I already see I disagree with ZZ's opinions on a few (Outside, Earthling, ...hours). I'm going to enjoy doing a few Bowie reviews even though I've got some other stuff on the back burner and particularly since I have such a hard time reviewing some instrumental albums I've added that haven't attracted any reviews. On a side note, anyone remember his Saturday Night Live appearance? I think he did Man Who Sold the World and Boys Keep Swinging. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 08:33
Correct sentence is:
Prog Rock is a form of Art - what's the problem?
And David Bowie IS the Art! -------------
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 09:06
| If ProgArchives.com is dead, then everything is progressive... |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 09:13
Not the way I define Art Rock it isn't
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 09:29
| Oh joy another thread about how ProgArchives shouldn't be called ProgArchives because thread started disagrees with obvious choices related to a certain genre. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 09:30
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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 10:24
Since it would run into unnesicary expense (graphic art etc) and cause confusion to those who may not have visited for awhile to find the new named site ... I think it should just stay Prog Archives. 
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 10:41
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What's in a name? ... Don't matter. Surely Bowie is more prog related than some other (death metal) acts which are added to PA recently and I don't see any harm in broadening our views on what's prog related so far. Who's next? The Rolling Stones (It's only rock 'n roll, but one may like it), Creedence Clearwater Revival (Suzie Q or I Heard it through the Grapevine may be an entry) or The Temptations (Papa was a Rolling Stone is a fine example of prog soul)? |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 10:48
 ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 10:53
Why have I lost interest in this website? I used to love it. Maybe it's just me but when I read new posts, they don't interest me to the degree they used to.  ------------- 
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 10:58
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Progarchives.com isn't dead, it just smells funny. Don't stare at me, someone had to say it! |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 11:00
Take a two-month break! |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 11:02
Enlarged for more truth.
This topic IS USELESS.
Anyone want Artrockarchives or xusernamearchives? Set it up yourself and leave everyone here alone.
End of story. -------------
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Posted By: Zarec
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 11:06
| the problem with the prog related category is that almost every band that developted a new genre or style has influenced prog artists that would follow. for instance, when speaking of progressive black metal bands you cannot ignore Mayhem's influence on them since MAYHEM INVENTED BLACK METAL. So can someone please add Mayhem to this archive? or, come to think of it, Pain of Salvation's Scarsick has many rap metal/nu-metal influences. it's definetly related to Korn who INVENTED NU-METAL so why not add Korn to this archive since the influence it had on bands like Pain of Salvation or Meshuggah makes them related to prog. it's just like family relations:i'm related to my uncle but i'm not my father |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 11:27
 Micky tried to explain to you all that the Bowie addition was done after A LOT of thought and discussion. Other bands or artists were added exactly in the same way. And please, for once, use the search function, and note how many threads there are requesting Bowie's addition to the database... Are all those people wrong, just like those who asked for the addition of Iron Maiden, Queen, Blue Oyster Cult, Black Sabbath and the like? Are they a bunch of idiots who woke up one morning and decided all those bands were prog (which they're not ... RELATED being the operative word)? On a side note: I would applaud anyone who had the guts to say which Special Collaborators took advantage of their position in order to add their favourite bands or artists. This is an allegation I've seen far too often, but no one so far has had the guts to name names. It's easy to impugn a person's integrity and, as we say in Italy, throw the stone and then hide one's hand.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 11:53
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^ it makes sense though to give some kind of ahead notice with such a high profile addition, just to avoid surprises and knee-jerk reactions.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aotm-2025-1/vote" rel="nofollow - 2025 Monthly Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: TerLJack
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 11:55
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Heck, I'm still confused as to why Utopia is in the archive but Todd Rundgren isn't. I would stretch the boundaries even further if I were you. Bill Nelson, Angel, Rundgren...
I love this sight even though I too have some problem with the emphasis on all the metal, but I just skip over the stuff I don't like. There's still plenty to enjoy. You guys are doing a great job!
Terry
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 12:07
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44837&PN=3 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44837&PN=3 Page 3 and page 4... Short of putting up posters, or buying advertising space, I don't think Micky could've made it clearer than that. |
Posted By: Zarec
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 12:17
hm..., if i awenser i get banned
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 13:33
But herein lies the fallacy: it is incorrect to say a particular band invented a given genre. This is never the case. To approximate the truth a bit more closely, we should say that a certain band (or bands) exemplified specific tendencies during a particular era. Admittedly, this is a bit long-winded; however, it does carry greater precision than the former suggestion. |
Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 14:28
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How lovely to arrive here after a hard day's work and find a topic we opened in the morning, moved to a place it doesn't belong to, it's title changed as to completely miss the point, and full of answers who clearly didn't read/didn't understand the opening post - in essence, to have one's words distorted.
So typical ProgArchives - this is why I would never do a thing to change it.
However, allow me to clarify on a few points regarding misinterpretations of my opening post - some of them probably caused by my laziness to write long posts.
1 - The expression ArtRockArchives.com is there to express the way I always saw this site, a perception that is progressively being confirmed with every new addition (no pun intended). There was no suggestion made to rename the it - I did call it misleading and outdated, but also made clear it was a request for a change (it's way too late for that).
2 - I am not in any way ranting against the inclusion of David Bowie - I actually support it. My only complaint is that it's included in the terrible PR label. Should we still have the now-gone, sorely missed label Art-Rock, that is where I would like to see him best.
3 - I opened this topic partly because of finding a pleaid of Bowie reviews on the front page, partly for the memory it brought me from over 4 years ago when I first encounter this place. A place which I found amazingly usefull, but hardly perfect: first off, I expected to find only progressive rock - I soon found out that there was much more to it. Because to me, progressive rock is a very narrow term - a subgenre of Art Rock, on the same level as space-rock, Kraut, Canterbury and other sub-genres. I didn't expect to find a place where progressive-rock was considered the umbrella term or all these genres. What surprised me the most was actually finding Art-Rock as a sub-genre of Prog-Rock - something wasn't right, I thought - it is like stuffing the turkey with the oven instead of putting the turkey inside the oven. It was thus with mixed feelings that I witnessed the departure of the Art-Rock subgenre - glad that an error had been corrected, fearful of the confusion their replacements might bring. But that's another issue altogheter, far discussed and not of interest here.
I applaud the inclusion of David Bowie as another step towards the tumbling down of the barriers set up by the limitations of the label Progressive Rock - it signals, in my view, a definite opening up to the broader world of Art-Rock, that still has so much to offer, and that has long been cut out. I just hope you don't stop with Bowie. By opening a title such as "ProgArchives.com is Dead - Long Live ArtRockArchives.com", I simply meant to applaud the death of the sprit behind the name, not the name itself, which is, after all, what atracted this immense community, and that will surely live on!
4 - Finally, anyone is entitled to find this discussion useless - and you can show it by ignoring this topic. I personaly find some contributions excellent and worthy of being build on, and the discussion (more of an academic thing than a practical one) interesting enough to last - I would like to think I am not alone in doing so.
P.S. - Oh, do remove this to a proper location - there is nothing in it aiming at "improving the site". ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 15:35
"I ask myself should I put my finger to the left, no I ask myself should I put my finger to the right, no I say it really doesn't matter where I put my finger Someone else will come along and move it And it's always been the same It's just a complicated game... God asked me should he ought to put his world on the left, no God asked me should he ought to put his world on the right, no I said God, it really doesn't matter where you put your world Someone will come along and move it And it's always been the same It's just a complicated Game " XTC
I've read Todd is in the works. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 16:14
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When i first i came here it was like whooooooorrrrrr hang on that ent Prog and this ent Prog but what the Hell labels are for Pickle Jars , so find what you like ignore what you don't its easy, and i just found Beardfish and i like so thanks Prog Archives
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 16:55
you welcome... loved that group... and a nicer group of guys you'll never meet. and agree with the labels... which I'll touch on in my my next post..... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 16:58
not our fault people don't pay attention to open threads... next time we'll put it in Neon lights on the main page hahahha
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
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Posted: May 28 2008 at 06:59Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2008 at 19:16
interesting post... my thoughts.... I think 'Art Rock' has a place here... but the manner in which it would make great sense and could be of great use... simply isn't going to happen so not wasting my breath suggesting it. This site is a black hole for forward thinking idea regarding improvement. Yes... Bowie does knock down a barrier or two.. which of course. .was intended... as was the last 'non-prog' addition I had my hands on. People have this silly notion that prog is all about 18 minute epics and instrumental acrobatics... and they totallaly miss that they are some of the results.. of what prog really IS about. Which Bowie typifies to a T... without resorting to what was..quickly becoming in the 70's far from being progressive.. and led us down the road to where prog rock.. is now 'genrefied' rather than an earnest movement to bring art.. and to progress the 'same old sh*t' of rock music or prog rock. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: June 24 2008 at 11:30
So people can start loading up their rants ahead of time ? The existence of a specific section for suggestions and discussions for new additions should be enough notice for anybody truly worried that the site take care in including new bands. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: June 24 2008 at 11:43
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Few quick notes Inventing a genre or being an influence : Clapton was an influence on Iommi, as on many other guitarists. Clapton is not in PA, nor should he be. Cream, well, that would be a good discussion. Elvis, Chuck Berry, the Beach Boys, all had their part in contributing to much music that came after. Rush's first release was a single 45 of Buddy Holly's Not Fade Away. Buddy Holly is not here. . PA inclusions - is it surprising that any new addition that has had a certain measure of commercial success (also know as a lot of fans) will generate a flood of reviews ? Ask yourself, if Yes or VDGG (for whatever reason) were just added this week, would you find it odd that PA members rushed to review the albums that could now be reviewed, or would we all go over our Tull/Gentle Giant/Rush discographies once more to see which we hadn't give an opinion on yet ? Simply put - add a genre or band, fans then have the chance to review it for the first time. Prog or not - is the site's goal "to be the most inclusive comprehensive" progressive music resource all that hard to understand ? Is the reasoning for and description of Prog Related not clear ? Or to use a phrase I just read - "I can see you're confused. I'll use little words then" Whether prog metal, prog related; if it's a new band with a few releases or a long overlooked music veteran, we can all expect to see reviews posted once they're in. The more fans here at PA, the more reviews that will generate. If you find that unjust, you are free to come back & post your take on any & all albums or groups that you wish. Heck, do a career overview, one album at a time, of Hawkwind. I'll do the same for Ange. Maybe Can deserves more front page time ... well submit a few reviews. And if you want to be the 10000th person to critique Close to the Edge, more power to you. Who knows, maybe it gets one of us old fans to go back and listen to it again. WHo knows ! ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: June 24 2008 at 11:54
Nu-Metal - Anthrax dreads the influence they had. They loved Rap, put out a great fun song like "I'm The Man", and collaborated with Public Enemy on "Bring the Noize" only to see lesser musicians come up with wretched (in some case delibaretely so) music that achieved mainstream success. And I'm sure Steve Vai never imagined 7 string guitars sounding so crappy. If you want low notes, buy a bass. There are six string models, ya know. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |