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Topic ClosedMost Pretentious Band?
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Poll Question: What is the most pretentious band?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [4.69%]
19 [29.69%]
7 [10.94%]
28 [43.75%]
7 [10.94%]
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febus View Drop Down
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Points: 4312 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 11:41
I don't understand the word ''Pretentious'' and its affiliation with those bands.Wacko....if pretentious = ambitious by going the extra mile musically and  trying to create something new (with success or not), breaking standart musical barriers , exploring new soundscape horizons.....in my book it's named ART and  it should not be any limit to express it .....be it in Kobaian!!!
 
''Pretentious'' can be applied also to non-prog music as well as attitude of a lot of rock stars (Bono, Kiss, Oasis, M. Crue ,A.Rose....) fits the meaning of the word.
 
''Pretention'' is just an empty word used by some people who happen not to like bands that happen to be a little bit ''different'' or are trying harder.. K. Emerson always gets bashed for trying to compose concertos or going out of the box; But no one criticizes when Part, T. Rypdal or Karl Jenkins do the same thing.
 
Christian Vander had a big vision about the music he wanted to play.....that's named ambition, that's art, that's creation, that's going forward  even if some don't like it but do you think he really cares! Confused


Edited by febus - June 18 2008 at 16:09
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Points: 424 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 12:44
Originally posted by DJPuffyLemon DJPuffyLemon wrote:

Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

Originally posted by DJPuffyLemon DJPuffyLemon wrote:


Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:


According to the given definitions, none of the bands listed meet the criteria for pretentiousness (at least for the reasons cited).

According to the given definitions, this list is pretty much perfect. If you look at it, Yes, Magma, and TMV really don't have much to say in terms of lyrical content, but all the excess that comes with the band...well. But please, tell me why this list isn't good?

You've failed to describe just how each artist has made "unjustified or excessive claims" or is "expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature."  I think that this is clear to anyone not blinded by their own prejudices against these bands.  The onus probandi lies with you (and using Latin is not pretentious either).

The claims are more or less implied.

No, they're really not implied.  For both Yes and TMV, you cite "non-sensical" lyrics as reason for inclusion in the poll.  Maybe the lyrics are non-sensical (in the case of Yes, I disagree), but that hardly meets the given criteria for pretentiousness.  The fault with Magma, you assert, lies in their "creation of a language" and the subsequent "mapping out [of] the mythology of an entire culture."  Again how do these acts equate with making "unjustified or excessive claims" or expressing "affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature"?  (Observe that if this logic were valid then all authors of fiction would be pretentious, and in particular, writers like Orwell or Burgess).  Finally, with ELP you admit that they're not really pretentious, but rather "self-indulgent."  With this assessment, I also disagree:  are they, as Merriam-Webster defines "self-indulgent", given to "excessive or unrestrained gratification of one's own appetites, desires, or whims"?  You haven't even made a prima facie case for it.

A lot of TMV fans (check out thecomatorium website) say that Cedric is the greatest poet ever. There's rampant Magma fanboyism: anyone goes and says Magma isn't the greatest band ever is always answered with "HORTZ FUR DEN STEKEHN WEST".

This is evidence to support the claim that "Some fans of Magma (or, if you like, The Mars Volta) are pretentious."  It says nothing, though, about the artists themselves.
 
And don't get this holier than thou attitude about this subject.

Precision of thought, not mere sanctimony, is my present aim.
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Points: 7606 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 12:46
I agree with WinterLight. It doesn't really need to be explain so semiotically though - this thread sucks. ;P You could invent a similar profile of prentention for any artist on the site.
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Points: 10094 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 12:49
THAT BAND THAT I DON'T LIKE LOL


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Points: 37344 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 13:02
Pretentious also means ostentatious.  So which, at least of the listed bands, shows off the most, tried the hardest to be noticed / makes the most vulgar/ flashy display of themselves, and makes the most excessive claims to greatness?  I'd want to read more interviews before deciding.  Incidentally, not that there's anything wrong with making an over-the-top spectacle of oneself on stage as it is a performance that is meant to entertain.  I'd look for one that claimed to be great, but really didn't have the chops.

Sorry going off Prog, but one of the most pretentious things I've read involved Angels and Airwaves.

Here's what the amazingly modest founder, front-man, and composer Tom DeLonge had to say about this project of his in an interview (just excerpts, was even worse, copied from a post I wrote in another forum two and a half years ago).

"[It's] the best music made in decades" and "much more powerful, emotional and melodic than Box Car Racer and blink put together."

"It sounds like it has the conceptual depth of Pink Floyd, the anthemic architecture of U2 but with Tom from Blink writing all the melodies. All the songs are very cinematic, anthemic and epic-sounding. The music sounds angelic. Every song gives you the chills and you feel like you want to cry but you're conquering the world at the same time. It sounds like stadium rock done by a band that's meant to be the absolute biggest band in the world."

"The songs are all six minutes long, and [the music] feels like you're going to cry but you put your fist in the air and you can conquer the world... It's built on a punk-rock foundation, but it definitely doesn't sound like blink."

"Imagine if you were in a jet plane, soaring through the clouds. That's what it sounds like."

They also did a CGI movie, the "story" apparently being based upon Tom DeLonge's life and will give insight into the hiatus of blink-182. It's being called AVA, and is being called a third documentary, a third love story and a third CGI. In the words of DeLonge, "It's the story of the album, which is the story of the break-up of one of the biggest bands in the world [blink-182] and the creation of the world's greatest band [Angels and Airwaves]."

I'm sure a great many of you have seen this, but here's another guy who comes across as just a little too pleased/ awed by his own music: Kevin Federline (CLICK)
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 13:44
Other: Pain of Salvation!
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Points: 894 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 18:23
Approve ELP, and I love it Hug
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Points: 824 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 21:11
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Pretentious also means ostentatious.  So which, at least of the listed bands, shows off the most, tried the hardest to be noticed / makes the most vulgar/ flashy display of themselves, and makes the most excessive claims to greatness?  I'd want to read more interviews before deciding.  Incidentally, not that there's anything wrong with making an over-the-top spectacle of oneself on stage as it is a performance that is meant to entertain.  I'd look for one that claimed to be great, but really didn't have the chops.

Sorry going off Prog, but one of the most pretentious things I've read involved Angels and Airwaves.

Here's what the amazingly modest founder, front-man, and composer Tom DeLonge had to say about this project of his in an interview (just excerpts, was even worse, copied from a post I wrote in another forum two and a half years ago).

"[It's] the best music made in decades" and "much more powerful, emotional and melodic than Box Car Racer and blink put together."

"It sounds like it has the conceptual depth of Pink Floyd, the anthemic architecture of U2 but with Tom from Blink writing all the melodies. All the songs are very cinematic, anthemic and epic-sounding. The music sounds angelic. Every song gives you the chills and you feel like you want to cry but you're conquering the world at the same time. It sounds like stadium rock done by a band that's meant to be the absolute biggest band in the world."

"The songs are all six minutes long, and [the music] feels like you're going to cry but you put your fist in the air and you can conquer the world... It's built on a punk-rock foundation, but it definitely doesn't sound like blink."

"Imagine if you were in a jet plane, soaring through the clouds. That's what it sounds like."

They also did a CGI movie, the "story" apparently being based upon Tom DeLonge's life and will give insight into the hiatus of blink-182. It's being called AVA, and is being called a third documentary, a third love story and a third CGI. In the words of DeLonge, "It's the story of the album, which is the story of the break-up of one of the biggest bands in the world [blink-182] and the creation of the world's greatest band [Angels and Airwaves]."

I'm sure a great many of you have seen this, but here's another guy who comes across as just a little too pleased/ awed by his own music: Kevin Federline (CLICK)



 
....and we have a winner folks! If that guy isn't the very definition of pretention, then I don't know what is!
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Points: 103 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2008 at 22:21
Rush fans, oh sorry you said band...well at the risk of being unpopular i'm giving yes their first vote.
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Points: 2614 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 02:44
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Pretentious also means ostentatious.  So which, at least of the listed bands, shows off the most, tried the hardest to be noticed / makes the most vulgar/ flashy display of themselves, and makes the most excessive claims to greatness?  I'd want to read more interviews before deciding.  Incidentally, not that there's anything wrong with making an over-the-top spectacle of oneself on stage as it is a performance that is meant to entertain.  I'd look for one that claimed to be great, but really didn't have the chops.

Sorry going off Prog, but one of the most pretentious things I've read involved Angels and Airwaves.

Here's what the amazingly modest founder, front-man, and composer Tom DeLonge had to say about this project of his in an interview (just excerpts, was even worse, copied from a post I wrote in another forum two and a half years ago).

"[It's] the best music made in decades" and "much more powerful, emotional and melodic than Box Car Racer and blink put together."

"It sounds like it has the conceptual depth of Pink Floyd, the anthemic architecture of U2 but with Tom from Blink writing all the melodies. All the songs are very cinematic, anthemic and epic-sounding. The music sounds angelic. Every song gives you the chills and you feel like you want to cry but you're conquering the world at the same time. It sounds like stadium rock done by a band that's meant to be the absolute biggest band in the world."

"The songs are all six minutes long, and [the music] feels like you're going to cry but you put your fist in the air and you can conquer the world... It's built on a punk-rock foundation, but it definitely doesn't sound like blink."

"Imagine if you were in a jet plane, soaring through the clouds. That's what it sounds like."

They also did a CGI movie, the "story" apparently being based upon Tom DeLonge's life and will give insight into the hiatus of blink-182. It's being called AVA, and is being called a third documentary, a third love story and a third CGI. In the words of DeLonge, "It's the story of the album, which is the story of the break-up of one of the biggest bands in the world [blink-182] and the creation of the world's greatest band [Angels and Airwaves]."

I'm sure a great many of you have seen this, but here's another guy who comes across as just a little too pleased/ awed by his own music: Kevin Federline (CLICK)





Yeah I don't think any of the bands listed meet "pretentious" criteria.  However, your mentioning of Angels and Airwaves is awesome.  Tom in an interview also said the band was the only group to successfully sound like and be influenced by U2 without actually ripping them off like everyone else does.  HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA
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Points: 2477 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 04:36
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

The worst kind of pretentiousness lies outside the world of prog, and among these guitar pop punk bands who 'pretend' to be good, when in fact they're total arse.


I couldn't agree more, and I also agree with Cheesecakemouse, when he mentions Prince and Oasis. Or just look at David Bowie (one of my favourite 1970s artists, by the way), singing about 'Supermen' (i.e. Uebermenschen!) and comparing himself to Heinrich Himmler (of all people) on HUNKY DORY and THE MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH. By comparison, prog bands are GOOD. They're not pretentious; they've got loads of IMAGINATION!
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Bowie himself was aware of his pretensions- he dubbed that superb Berlin-era music as 'the new school of pretension'- which is why I find it so hard to take when so many progressive rock artists get slammed for being pretentious and artists like him do not. Another favourite artist of mine is Van Morrison, and he regularly namechecks or quotes poets but he doesn't get dubbed 'pretentious' anything like as much.
 
As for prog bands who I do see as 'pretentious'? Here goes:
 
I don't really think ELP were that pretentious but for their classical aspirations, which sadly take over when people ever mention their name- I guess you could dub 'Pictures...' pretentious (though I enjoy it) and in my mind, there is no question whatsoever that 'Works Volume 1' was appallingly pretentious from the title itself down to Emerson's attempt at a concerto. Edward Macan in that book 'Rocking The Classics' tends to agree as he said these classical aspirations took focus away from their own compositions, which I too tend to find infinitely more rewarding.
 
It is when rock groups attempt to go all 'serious' and do classical/rock crossovers that I begin to blanche a bit- not so much when Caravan, Yes or Procol Harum did it when the orchestra was merely accompanying the band on material they'd written and recorded previously, but Deep Purple's is definitely pretentious IMHO. Rick Wakeman's albums of that era and Pink Floyd's 'Atom Heart Mother' are other nominations- they have a certain entertainment value but they aren't as profound as their composers were intending them to be IMHO.
 
I think acts like Mike Oldfield and Camel avoid the tag because they generally stayed away from excessive bombast- most of their work is generally quite approachable and melodic without having to wade through a lot of dodgy narrated sections or the like.
 
The Moody Blues smack me as being pretentious, right down to the obscure concepts which I've never been able to work out and the godawful narrated sections which are more profoundly embarassing than profound. I think it's hard to get away from 'kitsch' for The Moody Blues nowadays, to be honest- the 60s albums are enjoyable despite (or because of) this but the 70s ones, less so IMHO.
 
The Enid are very pretentious too IMHO- I've always found their cod-classical stuff horribly cheesy personally.
 
I don't see Yes or Genesis as being all that pretentious- at their best both bands never lost grasp of melody IMHO; even TFTO has some terrific and genuinely inventive stuff on there IMHO.
 
And Blacksword, those 'guitar pop' bands aren't pretentious, they're just sh*te! I doubt they could even spell 'pretentious'!LOL I think they have killed British rock music to be honest...some great new bands coming out of America at the moment but nothing new/interesting has emerged from the UK in years IMHO.


Edited by salmacis - June 19 2008 at 05:07
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 05:55
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

The worst kind of pretentiousness lies outside the world of prog, and among these guitar pop punk bands who 'pretend' to be good, when in fact they're total arse.


I couldn't agree more, and I also agree with Cheesecakemouse, when he mentions Prince and Oasis. Or just look at David Bowie (one of my favourite 1970s artists, by the way), singing about 'Supermen' (i.e. Uebermenschen!) and comparing himself to Heinrich Himmler (of all people) on HUNKY DORY and THE MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH. By comparison, prog bands are GOOD. They're not pretentious; they've got loads of IMAGINATION!


One journalist summed up exactly what I cant stand about Oasis, when he said, and I paraphrase; 'Liam Gallagher took to the stage, wearing a parka, jeans and trainers. He surveyed the crowd with a scowl on his face, before swaggering up to the mike and saying 'Good 'ere innit..' The crowd roared and a shiver went down my spine'

If thats what it takes to send people into musical nirvana these days, then the music industry is screwed! I mean, I know ELP were quite cocky, but at least they had something other than old mod clothes and a collection of drinking songs to back it all up with.

These days, I'm afraid, 'imagination' seems to equate to pretense. People like to 'keep it real, yeah'
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Points: 20386 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 06:03
although 01001101 is certainly more restrained, I think that Ayreon are in a league of their own in this department.... closely followed by Star One...Wink
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Points: 1065 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 06:50
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

These days, I'm afraid, 'imagination' seems to equate to pretense. People like to 'keep it real, yeah'

I vote in favour of 'keeping it unreal'! Tongue  I think lots of people feel that escapist entertainment/creative flights of fancy are a bit childish, or that indulging in that stuff keeps you blinkered and blind to 'what's really going on'...  But is it really helpful to your understanding of life to only consume 'creative product' that reflects your own immediate surroundings/everyday life experience??!  I don't think so...  Besides which, as others have pointed out, even the most down-to-earth and 'normal' music can come off as less-than-sincere/overly self-aggrandising, and therefore... pretentious. Dead
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Points: 2477 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 06:58
Well! Salmacis! Some serious analysis, at last!

I do seem to remember Van Morrison got rapped on the knuckles for referring to William Blake, DH Lawrence etc. once too often - but that was about 25 years ago, when he did it a lot, I suppose he was trying to educate himself, there have been few signs of such self-conscious posturing in recent years...

As for ELP: I more or less agree with you. I enjoy most of the early albums (their debut, TARKUS, TRILOGY and BSS) but I can't help thinking poor Greg Lake sounds pretentious AS SOON AS HE OPENS HIS MOUTH, except for a few ballads, it's all in his voice and his delivery I'm afraid... As for PICTURES, I've always thought that was a disaster, and in this case the preposterous lyrics certainly don't help!

Prog-haters will tell you tracks like "Firth of Fifth" or "And You and I" are pretentious, just because they're solemn, ecstatic and out-and-out romantic (things most listeners aren't looking for in rock 'n' roll), but as we all know these performers stir a part of us other bands just cannot reach...
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That period of Van Morrison's career is my favourite- in the 90s, he'd toned down all his 'pretensions' and churned out dull pub blues albums. Give me 'Common One' any day- I tend to feel that is one of the most underrated albums of all time. It's simply beautiful music. But this was one time when he got an absolute drubbing from the press for- you guessed it- being 'pretentious'!
 
The worst things about 'Pictures...' are the lyrics and the awful bits where Keith Emerson uses that ribbon-controller thing to make some horribly dated sounds. It's a period piece for sure- more so than their other early 70s albums- but I've always liked the album.
 
As for Magma, I only have one 2-cd anthology which I quite like- I can see why they would be derided as pretentious but it's so genuinely otherworldly I think they just about get away with it. Mars Volta are often more self-indulgent than pretentious IMHO. 
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Points: 2477 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 08:52
I quite like 'Rave on, John Donne', and 'You don't Pull no Punches but you don't Push the River'. INTO THE MUSIC and BEAUTIFUL VISION are another two of my favourite Van the Man albums. But he's still on great form! I saw him live last year, when most of the music was C&W (with a few sublime covers chucked in, such as 'Georgia on my mind') - the concert lasted exactly 88 minutes (as usual these days), but Van's voice is as good as ever and I truly enjoyed it.
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2008 at 12:24
Originally posted by song_of_copper song_of_copper wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

These days, I'm afraid, 'imagination' seems to equate to pretense. People like to 'keep it real, yeah'
I vote in favour of 'keeping it unreal'! Tongue  I think lots of people feel that escapist entertainment/creative flights of fancy are a bit childish, or that indulging in that stuff keeps you blinkered and blind to 'what's really going on'...  But is it really helpful to your understanding of life to only consume 'creative product' that reflects your own immediate surroundings/everyday life experience??!  I don't think so...  Besides which, as others have pointed out, even the most down-to-earth and 'normal' music can come off as less-than-sincere/overly self-aggrandising, and therefore... pretentious. Dead


I vote for unreality too!

I know exactly what you mean about normal bands coming across as pretentious, purely due to their efforts to appear unpretentious. They need to relax a bit, buy themselves a nice Mellotron and just make some chilled spacey prog, instead of writitng whinging crap about being laid..or not, as the case may be. The Smiths are excused, as they done it with wonderful humour and great melodies..
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Points: 123 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2008 at 15:24
When I think of prog, I just see musicians putting on a great show, live or in your own house through their albums. 

You want pretentious.... look at what U2 is nowadays.
"and if the band your in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"
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