Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Phil Collins ... A Prog Legend
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedPhil Collins ... A Prog Legend
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 5678>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Chris S View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:16
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Originally posted by Chris Stacey Chris Stacey wrote:

There are some similarities on PC/ latter Genesis work but ' Behind The Lines' IMO was a deliberate attempt by PC to be different so that is not a good analogy.  Genesis songs like these are pretty close to being found on a PC solo album (And that is not a bad thing)
 
Hold on My Heart
Tell me why
Never a time
Since I lost you
In too deep
Throwing it all away
Taking it all too hard
Mama
No reply at all
 
 
 
Interesting, in that about half of those songs were written by either Rutherford or Banks. Throwing it All Away and Taking it All Too Hard are both Rutherford songs. Hold on My Heart and Since I Lost You are Banks songs, and I am pretty sure In Too Deep is too. Mama is clearly the best song on the list, and that is Phil's. Yet another example of the kind of misperception and way over the top invectives and dislike of Phil Collins around here for all the wrong reasons(in other posts, not this one). Most people who blame him for "ruining Genesis in the 80s" really don't even know what songs he wrote.
 
Just for the record, who wrote those songs on the Genesis albums was not the point I was making. It was the similarity of sounds/crossovers over this period.
<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 37102 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:22
Interesting, if a considerable amount of Mr. Collins' solo music is similar to Genesis music made by other Genesis members, then that makes him a less progressive (as in innovative) artist.  Not being an expert or even an aficionado, I wouldn't know.  But I have rather felt that Collins has imitated other band members quite a bit (or at least been heavily influenced)... Some might say that it took him a while to find his own, true voice.

Incidentally, are there any big fans of Flaming Youth here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAMeBni0L9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fj9JZhG8s4&feature=related

He really does have a good voice as apparent in Changes (the second clip).

And young Mr. Collins had a very nice touch on the skins:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8ZWxT0Qrs&feature=related

I know I've mentioned it before, but I was quite impressed with this one:


Back to Top
fusionfreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: August 23 2007
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 1317 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:29
Phil Collins still is a good drummer that's for sure but he has not cared about progrock for a long time:
too bad,Brand X was really top notch jazz fusion reminding us of Mahavishnu Orchestra and Canterbury.
Genesis has now more to do with pop,MTV,money and not music.
I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world

of searchers with the help from

crimson king
Back to Top
Dr. Prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:38
Originally posted by fusionfreak fusionfreak wrote:

Genesis has now more to do with pop,MTV,money and not music.
 
 
 
Huh?? LMAO. When was the last time Genesis was on MTV? 20 years ago?
Yeah, Genesis sure played a lot of pop on their tour last year with an opening instrumental of Behind the Lines/Dukes' End, In the Cage/Cinema Show/Duke's Travels, Afterglow, Home by the Sea, Firth of Fifth, I Know What I Like, Domino, Ripples, Drum Duet/Los Endos and Carpet Crawlers. A lot of pop tunes there. Not much good music there.Confused
 
Sheesh, almost every time someone opens their mouth about Genesis lately, our collective IQ drops about 10 points.


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 14 2008 at 15:41
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:38
Originally posted by Chris Stacey Chris Stacey wrote:

 
Just for the record, who wrote those songs on the Genesis albums was not the point I was making. It was the similarity of sounds/crossovers over this period.
 
I agree Chris, I find a lot of similarities, won't guess who influenced who or care, but they sound similar to my ears.
 
Iván
            
Back to Top
Dr. Prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:43
 
 ......


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 14 2008 at 15:44
Back to Top
Dr. Prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:44

......



Edited by Dr. Prog - May 14 2008 at 17:44
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 37102 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:51
You could have just deleted your last post, instead of editing out the one before.

Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

...
Sheesh, almost every time someone opens their mouth about Genesis lately, our collective IQ drops about 10 points.


Thumbs%20Up Agreed.  Genesis just seems to dumb down the board.  Wink

Perhaps there should be a moratorium on Genesis and Genesis-closely related discussion.
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:57
Originally posted by Chris Stacey Chris Stacey wrote:

Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Originally posted by Chris Stacey Chris Stacey wrote:

There are some similarities on PC/ latter Genesis work but ' Behind The Lines' IMO was a deliberate attempt by PC to be different so that is not a good analogy.  Genesis songs like these are pretty close to being found on a PC solo album (And that is not a bad thing)
 
Hold on My Heart Collins
Tell me why Collins
Never a time Rutherford
Since I lost you Collins
In too deep Collins
Throwing it all away Rutherford
Taking it all too hard Rutherford
Mama Collins
No reply at all Collins
 
 
 
Interesting, in that about half of those songs were written by either Rutherford or Banks. Throwing it All Away and Taking it All Too Hard are both Rutherford songs. Hold on My Heart and Since I Lost You are Banks songs, and I am pretty sure In Too Deep is too. Mama is clearly the best song on the list, and that is Phil's. Yet another example of the kind of misperception and way over the top invectives and dislike of Phil Collins around here for all the wrong reasons(in other posts, not this one). Most people who blame him for "ruining Genesis in the 80s" really don't even know what songs he wrote.
 
Just for the record, who wrote those songs on the Genesis albums was not the point I was making. It was the similarity of sounds/crossovers over this period.
 
The primary songwriters on those songs are listed above.  Notice the lack of Banks in that list.  While you are correct that Throwing It All Away and Taking It Too Hard are Rutherford songs, both Hold on my Heart and Since I Lost You are primarily Collins songs, although, granted Banks did contribute some chords to Hold.  A I agree with the general sentiment that Collins is not the devil many make him out to be, and not solely responsible for the more poppish inclinations of later Genesis, but don't just make up who wrote what.  Wink
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
Dr. Prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:59

Thumbs%20Up Agreed.  Genesis just seems to dumb down the board.  Wink    
 
real cute

Perhaps there should be a moratorium on Genesis and Genesis-closely related discussion.
[/QUOTE]
 
or, how bout this----those people who don't know what the f they are talking about when it comes to Genesis, zip it, and we will all be better off.
Back to Top
TheProgtologist View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 16:02

I know...how about you guys stop this childish squabbling that has permeated the last few pages,and treat each other and their opinions with some respect,maturity and civility?Even if the differ from your own.

Or I am going to close this thread.


Back to Top
Dr. Prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 16:04
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Chris Stacey Chris Stacey wrote:

Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Originally posted by Chris Stacey Chris Stacey wrote:

There are some similarities on PC/ latter Genesis work but ' Behind The Lines' IMO was a deliberate attempt by PC to be different so that is not a good analogy.  Genesis songs like these are pretty close to being found on a PC solo album (And that is not a bad thing)
 
Hold on My Heart Collins
Tell me why Collins
Never a time Rutherford
Since I lost you Collins
In too deep Collins
Throwing it all away Rutherford
Taking it all too hard Rutherford
Mama Collins
No reply at all Collins
 
 
 
 
Interesting, in that about half of those songs were written by either Rutherford or Banks. Throwing it All Away and Taking it All Too Hard are both Rutherford songs. Hold on My Heart and Since I Lost You are Banks songs, and I am pretty sure In Too Deep is too. Mama is clearly the best song on the list, and that is Phil's. Yet another example of the kind of misperception and way over the top invectives and dislike of Phil Collins around here for all the wrong reasons(in other posts, not this one). Most people who blame him for "ruining Genesis in the 80s" really don't even know what songs he wrote.
 
Just for the record, who wrote those songs on the Genesis albums was not the point I was making. It was the similarity of sounds/crossovers over this period.
 
The primary songwriters on those songs are listed above.  Notice the lack of Banks in that list.  While you are correct that Throwing It All Away and Taking It Too Hard are Rutherford songs, both Hold on my Heart and Since I Lost You are primarily Collins songs, although, granted Banks did contribute some chords to Hold.  A I agree with the general sentiment that Collins is not the devil many make him out to be, and not solely responsible for the more poppish inclinations of later Genesis, but don't just make up who wrote what.  Wink
 
 
Where are you getting that information? Hold on My Heart is a Banks song, so whatever you are quoting from is wrong, and I am pretty sure In Too Deep is also. Which means at least half those songs are not Collins songs, which is what I said from the get go.


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 14 2008 at 16:05
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 16:10
The three songs from Invisible Touch in which Banks was the primary songwriter were Anything She Does, Domino and The Brazilian, as well as the B-side Feeding the Fire.  The two Banks songs from We Can't Dance were Living Forever and Fading Lights, and he also was the primary writer of the b-side On the Shoreline.  Check it out.  And get back to me.
Again, I agree with your overall sentiment.  But you are wrong about who wrote what. 
 
By the way, good to see you're still keeping the peace here Jody.  Wink


Edited by The Doctor - May 14 2008 at 16:14
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
Dr. Prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 16:30
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

The three songs from Invisible Touch in which Banks was the primary songwriter were Anything She Does, Domino and The Brazilian, as well as the B-side Feeding the Fire.  The two Banks songs from We Can't Dance were Living Forever and Fading Lights, and he also was the primary writer of the b-side On the Shoreline.  Check it out.  And get back to me.
Again, I agree with your overall sentiment.  But you are wrong about who wrote what. 
 
By the way, good to see you're still keeping the peace here Jody.  Wink
 
 
 
source? don't tell me I am wrong unless you cite a source. ie a valid source.
either on the Genesis history video, or the Genesis interviews on the IT or WCD cd, I know I have read or seen Phil say that Hold on My Heart is primarily Tony's, as well as In Too Deep. I guess I will have to dig those sources out. Part of the problem of deciphering is that those albums are all credited as Banks, Collins Rutherford compositions, and many come out of band jamming and words are added later. Collins sometimes sings nonsensical words which then morph into songs as the song progresses, and so people think he wrote most of the songs.
 
The main point I was making, which has gotten lost, is that Genesis in the 80s wasn't just doing Phil Collins songs making them indistinguishable from his solo career. Rutherford and even Banks wrote some of the soft ballad songs, and even on the album IT, which gets sl*gged the most, the majority of the album was not written or compose by Collins. People also blame Genesis for becoming more "pop" and as you can see from earlier in this thread, constantly cite Your Own Special Way and Follow You Follow Me as evidence, which are both Rutherford songs primarily.


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 14 2008 at 16:35
Back to Top
The Doctor View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 16:40

The primary source I use is the book Inside & Out, which states throughout the book, who wrote which songs, at least most of the songs, and while Hold on my Heart did start from a chord progression of Tony's, the melody and lyrics were Phils.  In Too Deep was almost solely Phil's song.  This book does not list who wrote every song, but many of the songs are mentioned with the primary composer and lyricist.  The rest I've looked up on various online resources, and yes, there are a few which even I don't know...(Dance on a Volcano being the most distressing, although I've always suspected that the lyricist was either Banks, Rutherford or Hackett Wink).

Anywho, I agree it wasn't all Collins' fault.  And I actually think that some of later Genesis was quite good...(Domino, Mama, Home by the Sea, Fading Lights, Driving the Last Spike - sporting a Collins' lyric by the way, Brazilian, Feeding the Fire, Dreaming While You Sleep, etc.)



Edited by The Doctor - May 14 2008 at 16:44
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Back to Top
debrewguy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 20:27
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:


Thumbs%20Up Agreed.  Genesis just seems to dumb down the board.  Wink    
 
real cute

DB - he means the way the subject seems to race to the gutter debate wise Smile

Perhaps there should be a moratorium on Genesis and Genesis-closely related discussion.
 
or, how bout this----those people who don't know what the f they are talking about when it comes to Genesis, zip it, and we will all be better off.

DB - You really shouldn't use a plural (we) when you mean the singular (I). Of course, we could re-orient the , ahem, discussion towards identifying our credentials re : Genesis knowledge before we proceed to head for the ditch intelligence wise.


Nota Bene - the reason for moratorium comment should be well known to those who've been here for a bit. Most may remember the interminable Phil-istines vs Gabriel-ites wars, the "Phil is the Antichrist and here's why" rants, and most memorable - the final threads where the many moderate tempered PAers ganged up and said enough already.
If you do need something or somewhere to vent your rage(s), I believe there is a thread here called "the Rant Room" where anyone and everyone is invited to spill their bile, and spit their venom at the most inane of inanities, the ultra utter nonsensical of situations, and basically just about all that you want to get off your chest. At least as long as you understand that the next person(s) to post may not even bother to read your rambling rage. LOL
[/QUOTE]
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
Back to Top
Manuel View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13481 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2008 at 20:56
I think Phil Collins and the rest of the band should have changed the name "Genesis' when they chaged their approach to music. that would have been more appropiate, given what  Genesis menas to the prog community.
 
Phil a great drummer/singer?  Yes, but not a prog legent IMHO.
Back to Top
Dominic View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: January 02 2008
Location: Liberation Land
Status: Offline
Points: 651 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2008 at 21:42
Collins belongs behind the kit imo. Please don't kill me.
Back to Top
debrewguy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2008 at 12:14
Originally posted by Dominic Dominic wrote:

Collins belongs behind the kit imo. Please don't kill me.

No problem, identified as an opinion with no overblown hatred for the person or his later work.
Which means you are out of place in an anti Phil fight Wink
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2008 at 13:17
Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

I know...how about you guys stop this childish squabbling that has permeated the last few pages,and treat each other and their opinions with some respect,maturity and civility?Even if the differ from your own.

Or I am going to close this thread.


Or how about, SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!!! ?
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 5678>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.211 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.