Phil Collins ... A Prog Legend
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Topic: Phil Collins ... A Prog Legend
Posted By: Masque
Subject: Phil Collins ... A Prog Legend
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 00:38
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Heres a list of top shelf songs Genesis did without Peter gabriel Dance on a Volcano Blood On The Roof Tops Entangled Follow You Follow Me Mad Man Moon One For The Vine Ripples Squonk Many Too Many Snowbound Your Own Special Way Undertow Afterglow Fading Lights Not only was Phil Collins a great drummer (as also proven with his work with Brand X) Phil proved he could take over on vocals for Genesis (can you imagine how big the shoes were that Gabriel wore that Phil would try and fill ?) Phil Collins deserves to be knighted for even trying So for all you people who don`t like Phil Collins how about showing some respect, after all for the Next three CD`s after Peter Gabriel left , Phil and company continued to deliver quality music . I probably left some songs out but this list was done from my memory. |
Replies:
Posted By: dagrush
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 00:50
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Uh, I'd have to disagree that some of those are "top shelf". The pile of crap that is "Follow you, follow me", the pile of crap that is "Your own special way", the... well, you get where I'm going. Much like Rutherford and Banks (also guys like Squire and Oldfield, but that's a different thread) I love Phil's former period, but hate what he became. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/omgwtfdagrush/"> 
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Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 00:54
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dagrush wrote:Posted By: shanocles
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 01:31
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yeah, total innovation from behind the kit here. when you strip back those ol' classics and listen to how the songs were constructed, the themes, etc, you begin to see how creative phil was in the early days. prog legend ....... definitely ------------- if left is wrong i don't wanna be right... 
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 01:38
Indeed, they are amazing albums, and he totally deserves the credit for it But did he have to ruin Genesis afterwards?  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: AngleofRepose
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 01:57
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Collins didn't ruin Genesis. All the band members continued writing
music that most of us progheads don't like. Even the 'backbone of Genesis' Tony Banks contributed equally to the mainstream productions of popular Genesis. I hold them all equally responsible. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 02:01
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will never probably give the slightest credit to Collins.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 02:09
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Sorry, but since ATTW3 it was Genesis no more, it was anything. And Your Own Special Way sucks IMO. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 02:12
haha, tell us how you really feel Ivan. ------------- 
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 09:49
A prog and a pop legend ------------- 
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Posted By: dagrush
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 10:03
You don't HAVE to write radio oriented tunes. Is it written somewhere that you do? Recognised? So what? Yes's most recognized song is "Owner of a lonely heart". Anyway, those aren't perfect, they're annoying. A perfect radio oriented tune is something like "Carry on wayward son" or "Schism", probably because they aren't really radio oriented. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/omgwtfdagrush/">
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Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 10:03
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Damn straight. Leave Phil alone, haters.
Genesis from 70-81, Brand X, played on Eno albums etc etc. That's a pretty good career in itself, no matter what came after. ------------- The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning And all the rest is just bullsh*t -Steve Kilbey |
Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 10:04
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Oh yeah, and Follow You Follow Me is a great tune. ------------- The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning And all the rest is just bullsh*t -Steve Kilbey |
Posted By: Sharier
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 10:16
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If I'd list my fave Phil performances that would surely drop Your Own
Special Way, Follow you Follow Me, Blood on the Rooftops and Snobound
from the first list. It will start from Mama Home by the Sea Me and Sarah Jane Mad Man Moon Supper's Ready (Seconds Out) Carpet Crawlers (Seconds Out) Dance on a volcano One for the Vine Entangled Down and Out Afterglow Behind the Lines Duchess That's All (for its a very difficult song to sing without having your jaw aching) Fading Lights Unfortunately nothing 'vocal impressive' from Invisible Touch-eh (eh, I tried singing Invisible once-- too many words in too little time made my jaw ache)! |
Posted By: Zoso
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 11:11
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I agree, those songs are great, minus Your Own Special Way, which makes me want to jump off a cliff. People should lay off Collins. He did provide us with some great music, is a phenominal drummer, a good singer I think...I also think it's wrong to insult someone if their musical style changes. It's their music, not ours. They can do what they please with it, and that's what Genesis did. -------------  |
Posted By: Legoman
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 12:18
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Phil Collins a legend!? I think I would rather kill myself than
admit that a love sick pop rocker is a legend. I might admit that
if he continued his work with Brand X, but he didn't. His music
is static and makes me want a drowned myself in some good ol'
Magma! Hahahha...
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Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 12:23
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 14:29
I strongly disagree with that word!!! ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 15:24
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Yeah, I get tired of people treating Phil like he was Yoko Ono or something. Anyone who is a success in the crazy, convoluted world that is the music business is to be admired and he did it on his terms. It's true that success breeds contempt but there are a whole lotta other musicians who sold out to a much higher degree than Mr. Collins. So there! ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 17:06
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Phil Collins ia a great drummer and decent vocalist who played and sung in a Prog band, that's all. But to be a Prog Legend you need to have Prog songs, and honestly I don't find a single Progressive note written by Phil Collins, the remotely Prog tracks from the late albums were written by Tony. Peter Gabriel with all his merits and being a Prog Rock icon is lumped in Prog Related, where do you all believe Phil should go judging by this standarts. BTW: Mama IMO is anything but Prog, it's repetitive, boring and one of his worst performances, he shouts out of tomne and that laugh at thend is pretty repulsive. Iván -------------
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Posted By: musicbandit
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 12:16
| I think Phil Collins made some great albums and songs in the 80s and is very wrongly criticised. Take just for example, Thunder and Lightning, I Missed Again, I don't Care Anymore, Thru these Walls, these are all genuine classics. I urge anyone who hasn't heard Phil Collin's first two albums to really listen to them before they even CONTEMPLATE criticising this man! He is a fantastic singer and a great drummer so let's all start appreciating him for what he's really worth - priceless! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 14:03
Hardly he deserves any criticism, as progheads raised with early Genesis musivc, yuo must understand how hard it's for us to accept the change, I already said he's an outstandig drummer and IMO a very decent vocalist.
The point here is if he is a Prog legend, and I believe he's not, to be a Prog legend (as an individual) you need some Prog releases on your own discography, and Phil doesn't have one.
I won't talk about quality music because I don't like the kind of Pop he did, but according to the fans he was good, so my comentary about his music wouldn't be accurate. But I can sayif he is a Prog Legend or not.
Call him a Rock legend or a POP legend, but not Prog legend, he has a place in Prog databases for his work as part of Genesis, but not for his work as an individual vocalist neither for the change he was part when he was frontman of the band specially after Duke.
At the end, being a Prog musician doesn't imply being good, there are lots of terrible Prog bands (Believe me, afters searching each and every Symphonic band to clean the genre, we found a lot od less than mediocre bbands or artists), on the other hand, there are outstanding POP or mainsttream Rock bands that would kill anybody trying to label them as Prog.
Being a Prog musician is only being part of a genre in which Phil as a soloist wasn't part of.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: TheRocinanteKid
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 14:45
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Wow, I was just gonna start a new thread regarding Phil Collins and then suddenly I see this, figured I might as well ask my question here as start a new topic.
So... is the album Face Value worth picking up? I do dig most of what Genesis has put out over the years and enjoy Peter's solo career but have never bothered with Phil for obvious reasons. I heard Face Value at least has some Prog-cred is this true? Any information/opinions on this album much appreciated.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 15:04
Face Value is a great pop-rock album with a magnificent tune "In the air tonight" which, as it has some atmospherics and a (sort of) epic feel with the way the real drums come halfway through the song and give it a burst of energy, we may say it retains a 1% of proggresiveness...not more than that... but that doesn't mean it's not a GREAT track... the rest of the album is not up to that song but is very enjoyable and I'd say get it.
But if you like rock-pop and want some Phil, try "...But seriously".... VERY pop so it's not for everyone here, but it has great great songs and also some unknown good ones... ------------- 
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Posted By: musicbandit
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 16:47
| The T - you're right, But Seriously has some great known and also some unknown songs. Talking about Face Value, it doesn't really have any 'cred' at all and that's what perhaps makes it even more attractive to me. Saying that, it has a bunch of excellent songs on it. The only FASHOINABLE songs on it are Tomorrow Never Knows (because it's a Beatles cover) and In the Air Tonight (because of the strong drum beat). Unlike you - The T - I actually think ALL the rest of the tracks are better than these two. I think In the Air Tonight is slightly overrated and I know that Phil Collins wrote many better songs, on this album and others. Which brings me onto Hello I must be Going which is, in my opinion, just as good as the previous album. Like the previous album possibly the most boring song on it is the cover version (the Diana Ross song) and that's saying something because it's an excellent cover of a song. After those two, I'd probably try But Seriously. |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 20:51
| He is a fantastic drummer, but Genesis was no good after W&W and TOTT. I mean ABACAB was an ok pop album, but thats it. That other stuff was just boring as hell. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 21:54
| I liked Face Value. Not prog, but very good pop. I haven't bought any of his stuff after that; why bother, it was all over the radio at the time. The hits, anyway, are expertly crafted product. And that's what it is: product. Produced from the ground up for consumption. I fully appreciate the production values that went into the hits, but in the end it's somewhat like a Big Mac. |
Posted By: musicbandit
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 04:51
| Hello Jammun. What's so different about Face Value and his second album? Hello I must Be Going had only 1 or 2 hits on it and the rest are unknowns - and it's an album possibly just as good as Face Value. In fact, Hello... has some seriously excellent drumming! With all this talk about Collins as a drummer I think EVERYONE should listen to Hello I Must be Going. I don't really agree with you about the hits. Remember that he wrote the music himself. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 12:07
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Shouldn't this thread be moved to GENERAL MUSIC?
Phil Collins is not in our database.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 12:24
The thread title is at odds with musicbandit's opening post but I'll keep this thread here as a general appreciation of Phil Collins as a performer, within Genesis and Brand X and as part of any guest apperances on Prog albums, however this will enevitably include discussion of his non-prog output as a solo performer.
I think we should take it as read that Phil Collins as a solo performer is not Prog.
Just don't mention acting.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Weston
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 12:59
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I think you get more reviled for moving away from prog than to have never been prog. I don't hate Chicago (once a great jam band) or R.E.M. for instance. It's feeling betrayed that does it. And goodness me, we've been betrayed a lot by the pioneers since about 1980. Yes started sounding like Jefferson Starship. Tull started sounding like just another AOR band. Peter Gabriel, though artsy, had more to do with world music than prog. And so on. As for Collins -- I'm a little ignorant of his innovations. I'm afraid I don't notice him much at all in the classic Genesis except when he's singing along with Gabriel or making funny voice effects. I just don't notice his drumming. I do notice Neil Peart, Barriemore Barlow, and Carl Palmer's drumming. ------------- If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, creativity is the sincerest form of worship. |
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 13:05
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I have respect for him,though it took me a while.I like early genesis,brand x and the robert plant stuff he drummed on,i just pretend eighties genesis didnt exist lol ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 16:45
Phil had his moments, good and bad, his good moments were really good though. The progressive Genesis stuff, Brand X, even some good stuff on the solo albums. I do love to poke fun at him though. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:52
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Su. . .Su . . . Sudio!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: TheRocinanteKid
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 19:36
| Okay are we officially banned from talking about Phil's solo career? If so on a final note just wanna say thanks for the recommedations everyone, I read every single post and am gonna get hold of Face Value, Hello, I Must Be Going and perhaps even No Jacket Required and see how I feel. |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:18
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If you are expecting prog, you'll regret this. Phil's solo career is like Invisible Touch with the prog parts taken out.
Which doesn't mean that Phil isn't a prog legend. darqDEAN lists the relevant items in his resume that qualify him.
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Posted By: endlessepic
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 00:16
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I think Phil did the right thing, proved himself as an incredible drummer and then took over the band and for a few albums proved himself to be a very good front man (with a great beard I might add!) But if he had just stayed that way he would be known and loved by us, instead he opted to "ruin" Genesis (I think it was a decent development) thus making our wonderful prog band a household name and making them millionaires. He then made a solo career (which isn't all that great) and did what barely any other musician can do - be in a successful band and then out shadow it in terms of popularity. Robert Plant will always be "The guy from Led Zeppelin" and Mark Knopfler may always be "The guy from Dire Straits" but Phil Collins, at least to my generation is - "what? That guy plays drums in a prog band?" He's also a millionaire and shares mutual prog and pop admiration. Smart guy. Made great music and made tons of music. |
Posted By: npjnpj2
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 03:10
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I feel it's unfair to bash just Collins, all members of Genesis were to blame for the lame pop rubbish produced in the later period.
What happened was that all of them made solo albums that more or less flopped commercially except for Collin's album.
Now, at this point ALL OF THEM must have agreed to roll with the cash.
I'm pretty sure that if Bank's or Rutherford's albums had turned out to be huge sellers, they would have gone in THAT direction instead. It was just unfortunate (well, in a way, but you probably know what I mean) for Collins that it was his effort that rocketed.
I lay the blame on all of them, not just on Collins. I find blaming him alone distinctly unfair.
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Posted By: TheRocinanteKid
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 06:52
| Face Value is up on Amazon for £1. I can afford that... |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 07:01
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If I didn't know better, I'd think the thread's title was chosen to create , ahem, a discussion of Phil's musical talent. Now all we need is to bring in the Peter part of what was once hoped to be a done to death debate about who was to blame for Genesis putting out music that some here didn't like. Get over it. You figure Phil isn't a prog guy on his own, fine. You think his era Genesis does not bear comparison to Peter's, fine. But for God's sake, don't take it personally. None of you know what music Genesis would have gone on to make if Jonathan Silver, John Mayhew , Anthony Philips, Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins had not left the group at their respective times (keep in mind the final Genesis studio album with Ray Wilson). And so the pop direction that gradually took over the group's sound cannot be said, with any certainty, to be due to Phil's emergence as supposed group leader. For all you know (and not what you think you know), they would have followed the same path. Play your old records, enjoy them as you will, leave the later ones for those of us who find them entertaining for what they are, and pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeee get on with your bloody lives. No animals were hurt during the making of any of Phil's music, though I suspect that some humanoid bipeds suffered from the delusional treason of a group playing music that a fan did not like or agree with. BBBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Let's ask malnourished Ethiopian the question, and its' relative importance in the scheme of things. But first, let's make sure there is nothing around that can be used as a weapon, eh .... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:44
Yep, he's a prog legend. Shame he went solo though 
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: alanerc
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:11
| I used to like his solo work when I was a child... |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 18:19
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Sometimes you can "progress" in the wrong direction. The right direction would have been what prog is today , a vibrant underground, no? Collins was and then, moved on a bit like life, sometimes. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 19:16
Alas, Phil threw it all away.  I'm probably repeating myself, there is still a nice collection of music that he's been involved in before he went way too commercial. I'm probably repeating myself, there is still a nice collection of music that he's been involved in before he went way too commercial. And no, I'm not under stress, no, I'm not under stress, no
Man, you're strict.  Eh, someone's got to be, right?------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 22:01
DB - on a casual note, there were comments that seemed to indicate the possibility of the probable existence of some music amongst Phil's solo oeuvre that could be almost passed off as kind of like prog. Of course, In The Air Tonight must not be the sum total of this one & only music of quality that is prog. And , admittedly, seeing a formerly respectable & respected prog rock musician demean himself by writing & recording music that he wants to, only to be faced with the unfortunate burden of having that massively bury his past "good" music sales-wise must be the ultimate proof that there is no pudding left to check for clues as to why this is a bad thing, justifying horrid, nasty, just plain poopy attacks on what is, from all accounts, a really nice guy. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 22:09
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DB: Prog doesn't necesarilly means good, just means Prog. Or you have a Prog music based career or not, Phil Collins had a Prog Music career as part of Genesis and Brand X, but as a soloist not. This doesn't mean he's good pr bad musician, much less if he's a nice or a nasty guy (I believe he's a nice person), simply means he's not a Prog artist as a soloist, so the threads about him should be in the general music, as the threads about Jimmy Hendrix, Eric Clapton or Elvis Presley. It has happened before and the thread was moved most of the times, that's all, don't make comoplex, something that is simple. Iván -------------
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 22:21
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haha there's some Unorthodox Behaviour in this thread! He's a friggin legend!!!!!! Regardless of what he did after 1980!!!! I even talked to a friend of mine who is a drummer, and I brought up Phil Collins, expecting humor, and he instantly gave him the credit he deserved as a legendary drummer! ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 22:30
1.- Yes, he's a legendary drummer
2.- Yes, he's a Pop legend
3.- Yes, he's a Prog legend as member of Genesis and Brand X.
4.- No he's not a Prog legend as soloist, because he didn't recorded a single Prog album, as simple as that.
If somebody asked Is Bob Dylan a Prog Legend? I would answer no in the same way, because he never recorded a Prog album. But he's a legendary musician, credited by many as the starter of Psychedelia.
Not being a Prog legend takes nothing from Dylan's or Collins career, simply specifies in what genre they developed.
Too many people believe that Prog is an award that only good musicians achieve, well, it's not, there are terrible Prog musicians and excellent mainstream artists.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 02:51
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Bob doesn't have a whole lot of good prog albums with good performances from him on them in his discography, though.
Face the facts. Phil was not only a great drummer but he was an influential prog drummer up until W &W. Wbatever you think of Phil Collins the solo act, Phil Collins the person is a prog legend thanks to his output in the '70's.
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Posted By: TheRocinanteKid
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 08:18
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Is there anyone here actually denying Phil's status as an awesome Progressive Rock drummer? The guy influence Neil Peart, there are few out there who can claim something as amazing as that.
Anyway on a different note, for anyone I was discussing Phil's solo career with earlier in the thread, I bought Face Value off Amazon and it arrived this morning. Went to college and when I got back I gave it a few listens though. I quite enjoy it, it's nice to see Phil didn't instantly jump into a completely commercial solo career the first chance he got, songs like In The Air Tonight, The Roof Is Leaking and Hand In Hand have some serious Prog-cred in my opinion. I actually think as a whole I'd rather listen to this album than Abacab or Genesis '83, I'm certain I'd take this one over Invisible Touch. I can't stop playing the funked up version of Behind The Lines, I've had it on repeat so many times I just went back to the original and it sounded odd and slow. Haha. I know his next release had You Can't Hurry Love On and seems there's certainly a shift towards commercialism there but I don't think Phil deserves the hammering he takes as a solo artist, not for Face Value anyway, if the guy had carried on in this vein I honestly think he'd probably be in the ProgArchives database now. So yeah no regrets on buying Face Value and I'm not embarrassed to own it... although I will keep it out of sight of my Dad, I don't think he'd appreciate knowing I have it.
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Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 19:30
Actually i've done that in the past but after hearing his work on BrandX besides his work for Genesis i agree with you that he was an essential person in the 70's for prog rock. Still dislike his solo career though . |
Posted By: muddoctor
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 03:46
 i'm absolutely agree with ivan,
tobe a prog legend, you need to have a good prog songs.
i don't think either phil collins have that one,..
Gabriel only related to prog,..
but the only one who has a prog skill in genesis is hackett,..
i've heard so many master pieces from hackett,..
his riff & cord is progressive,..
and also he has a good prog songs,..
so,..
i preffered to choose hackett as a prog legend rather than phil collins.
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 05:01
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Hi there mud, welcome to the forum.
Hackett can be a prog legend too, but there's no denying that the pre-W&W Collins was one as well. If you did a pre-'80's prog drummer poll, Collins would be in the top four. He was one of the very few drummers who actually innovated and influenced in prog. Of course, you could argure the same for Hackett with guitar, but he would face stiffer competition.
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Posted By: muddoctor
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 05:17
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Hi too ghost, good to have a reply from you,.. about collins,.. yeah i never doubt about him as a proffesional prog drummer,.. i'd love to hear collins played drums in Genesis in 1970 - 1977, i'd also love to hear collins played drums in Brand-X, eventhough it's a little bit jazzy ??? but as far as i know, collins never make a prog composition for entire songs,.. may be only be a part of it,.. please advise ...
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Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 01:26
| As usual I'm in agreement with Ivan but I'd add a few thoughts. You can count me in the "feel betrayed" camp. I used to love Phil, that was 30 years ago. As everyone agree's he's a great drummer. When I saw genesis during Duke tour, he did this thing with a tamborine in each hand that was just amazing. He also is a decent vocalist. It is precisely because I liked him so much as a musican that his musical direction is so difficult to take. I think Phil is more of a Motown fan than a Prog fan. Yes it's true that he gets more of the blame than Tony and Mike for ruining Genesis, maybe that's because we percieve that he wanted stardom which he got and with it our blame. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 11:24
Well, as long as I see, Collins has won no drummer poll, but Hacket has won more than one, facing Fripp and Howe, thetoughest competitors).
Not that this is too important, but lets not be unfair with Steve, I know he's unpopular utside, Trolling Stones hardly ever mentions him (They even credit Eddie Van Halen as the first Rock guitarist who adapted the Tapping Technique to Rock, when Steve did it 10 years before), but here also?
Along with Rick Wakeman, Steve is probably the most successful Big 5 band member with a solo career.
Steve won his status of Prog Legend with his solo albums (18 if I'm not wrong, and almost all outstanding), because what he did in Genesis was as part of a team.
Phil Collins is a great drummer, influential or whatever, but as a soloist, he gained no Prog Legend status, as Mike Rutherford in the bass, (who played in more Genesis albums than Phil and was a pioneer in the double neck guitar and Moog Taurus Pedals)
But INDIVIDUALLY neither Phil or Mike are Prog Legends (Despite Mike recorded "Smallcreep's Day), because they didn't gained this status, by the contrary, Phil made his solo career only as a POP composer and performer.
So lets put things in their place.
Cheers
Iván
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Posted By: muddoctor
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 11:34
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There ya go ivan !!!
great comment bro, ..
txs a lot !!!
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 00:42
Specious. Collins may not plade high in such a poll now, but if you took a time machine back to the era I specified he definitely would have. And I doubt Hackett would have done so well back then also. How time does color our memories....
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 00:50
You've got to be kidding me, right? Out of Genesis alone, Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins have both experienced much more success.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 00:53
Not time GOM, merits, since his career in Genesis ended, Steve has done 18 albums, most of them Prog, and all except one outstanding, while Phil as a soloist almost forgot the drums to become a POP singer.
Steve's career is almost impeccable, something we can't say about Phil's, at least from a prog point of view.
Phil didn't had a Prog career, he might had success as a Pop balladist, but not as a Prog artist.
Peter had a very eclectic career, some Prog, some not, very good, I love his music, just look at my avatar, but not really Prog.
Steve may had less success, but artistically is inmense.....How many Prog artists have been praised by Yehudi Menuhim and chosen one of his albums to be the background of hs goodbye program?...Only one Steve Hackett.
Both may have been more successful, because complex Prog is usually not successful, but Phil's career was pure top 40 stuff, Peter's career is ecellent even when eclectic, but from a Prog perspective, Steve is way ahead most ex- big 5 members.
Michael Jackson was more successful than the three together, but is he better?
Iván
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 01:29
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I'm intrigued by the notion that any thread about Phil Collins ought to be shifted to the general discussion thread. Imagine that Collins had died in 1978 (no obvious comments please). He would be in the PA database as the drummer and later vocalist for GENESIS and drummer for BRAND X, and as such would be discussed in the prog lounge. The implication is that his solo 'pop' career has cancelled his prog achievements. That is somewhat odd, to say the least, and if it was applied to every progger who went pop, we'd certainly have a far smaller database! So I'm comfortable talking about Phil Collins in the prog lounge. More, I believe he is a prog legend. After all, he fronted one of the world's best ever progressive rock acts, and is judged by many as a more than competent drummer. |
Posted By: muddoctor
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 01:39
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ivan,... may be michael jackson a little bit odd.
but you can take a look at britney spear or mariah carey,..
they both very famous now, i mean TOP !!!
but i think none of them better than three guys that we've been talking about.
am i right or wrong ???
heheheheh
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Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 01:47
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Steve won his status of Prog Legend with his solo albums (18 if I'm not wrong, and almost all outstanding), because what he did in Genesis was as part of a team.
Iván
Ivan, while I agree and I note that you didn't say that Steve album's are all prog. It should be noted that Steve has released 3 (to my knowledge) purely classical albums, Bay of Kings, Momentum and Sketches of Sadie. His profincency with multiple forms of guitar playing are I think why he wins polls against the most formidable of competition. Steve is more than a prog legend, he a mucial legend.
And muddoctor, Welcome to the Forum, always happy to have another Hackett fan. If you serch under Steve you'll find my post about an interesting thing I saw at a Hackett concert. the post is titled, "Steve Hackett, Out of Character". Kenmar
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 01:56
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:06
Agree 100% , and that's why I said:
But you are forgetting a fourth Classical album, the impecable "Midsummer's Night Dream".with The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, which reached the top ten in the Classical Charts.
He also made a couple of Jazz albums.
Iván
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:13
You may be misunderstanding me, Ivan, because I don't disagree with anything you say in this post. I don't want Phil Collins, or anyone, to have a separate entry in PA if they haven't issued any prog material in their own name. But he IS in the database, not under his own name, but as a member of GENESIS and BRAND X. However, you said earlier that this thread should be shifted to the general discussion. Why? Phil Collins is a well respected progressive musician AS WELL as subsequently becoming a successful pop artist. Any discussion of the merits of someone who is - surely undeniably - a progressive musician ought to be in the progressive lounge. Perhaps this seems like a big deal over nothing. But I've never understood why fans of GENESIS are so angry at Phil Collins, as though what he did after 1980 has somehow negated what he did before that time. Shifting any discussion about him to the general discussion seems the height of disrespect. |
Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:16
| ^ thanks Ivan, I'm embarassed to say I don't have that one, a situation I will rectify immediately. Kenmar |
Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:31
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Perhaps this seems like a big deal over nothing. But I've never understood why fans of GENESIS are so angry at Phil Collins, as though what he did after 1980 has somehow negated what he did before that time. Shifting any discussion about him to the general discussion seems the height of disrespect. [/QUOTE] Russell, as someone who is angry at Phil I will try to answer your question. first I assume you read my post on the last page about feeling betrayed. In the late 70's we were losing prog, TOTT and W&W were great albums despite Peter leaving and we had hope that Genesis would continue as a great band. It was losing that hope and losing our favorite band, being embarassed because when you said Genesis people associated the name with Pop. Do you see where I'm going? can you imagine the disappointment?
Hope that clears it up, I am curious if you were a Genesis fan in the 70's and didn't experience any of the emotions I've tired to convey. Kenmar
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Posted By: muddoctor
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 02:57
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i'm not angry with collins,.. truly i still have my enjoyment when listening his worked after 1980 (except calling all stations). yeah, if abacab, Self titled & invisible touch is not pure prog albums.... so what ? in life there's so many choices guys,... and collins have his own choice,.. why he just moved out from prog scene into pop scene? because money ? popularity ? only God and Collins know that !!! :D Cheers, MUD
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 03:12
 The dislike for Collins I am sure is a catalyst for his constant threats to retire. He is a BLOODY legend and I thank Peter Gabriel for moving on because Collins had so much positive input after his departure. And I love PG by the way! Even Collin's contributions on ' Absent friends' and ' More Fool Me' get knocked. Poor guy!!
Heptade made a good point too, Banks, Rutherford and Collins made the Genesis 'POP' in latter years not just PC. Maybe the prog community's disdain as a whole ( not all) of the pop direction that some bands took encourages similar backlashes, from lovers of other genres of music ,to prog. I am not agreeing with any of the ill feelings and it serves no good purpose.
Also I think the thread should remain where it was originally posted. Additionally, one day it would be nice to see PC solo's in PA because of his prog history not because he went in a more commercial direction. 10cc Bloody Tourists is here ( great
) so should Face ValueAside from these healthy debates this difference of opinions will never go away, especially Phil Collins but he deserves a lot more more credit than he gets IMHO
BTW, thanks PC for your contributions to..... er Steve Hackett, PG -3, Anthony Phillips, Brand X, Robert Plant, Peter and The Wolf (Various artists) the list goes on, all prog stalwarts.
peace
------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 03:32
Russell, as someone who is angry at Phil I will try to answer your question. first I assume you read my post on the last page about feeling betrayed. In the late 70's we were losing prog, TOTT and W&W were great albums despite Peter leaving and we had hope that Genesis would continue as a great band. It was losing that hope and losing our favorite band, being embarassed because when you said Genesis people associated the name with Pop. Do you see where I'm going? can you imagine the disappointment?
Hope that clears it up, I am curious if you were a Genesis fan in the 70's and didn't experience any of the emotions I've tired to convey. Kenmar [/QUOTE]Kenmar, thank you so much for this. I was a big Genesis fan in the 1970s (you can read my reviews to confirm this!) but I liked what the band did pre- and post-1975. I can't say that I enjoyed 80s Genesis anywhere near as much, but I don't see Collins as being solely responsible for this. Given Gabriel's solo output I think Genesis would have gone much the same way if he'd remained. No matter how disappointed I am with a band or an album, I never blame them. It's not their obligation to provide me with what I want. The 'demise' of my favourite 70s bands led me to discovering great new bands and music. |
Posted By: muddoctor
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 03:49
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The 'demise' of my favourite 70s bands led me to discovering great new bands and music
and ...still discovery til the end !!!
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 04:44
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It's called revolution baby!! or...evolution, or in some cases devolution The 70's represented the infancy of prog, the 80's yielded some great new genres and bands ( Simple Minds, Waterboys, World Party, Talking Heads, Prince, the Clash) and they too faded in terms of their " Big Music' ( some still delivering though!) as too hopefully will Yes this year. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: muddoctor
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 06:06
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I believed there's always a good prog band in every single years
and every decade...
as long as we keep support them & critique them if they out of line.
so there's will be no more Phil Collins case in the future !!!
Prog On !!!
MUD
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Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 07:29
Russell, Good points you make, however I wasn't saying that PG should stay as it was obviously time to go. At least that's how I look at it now! gabe's solo career is much more world oriented and because of his work with amnesty international and other social/ political leanings, I think his poppier stuff was intended to bring a larger crowd to what he was doing and that was starting Real World and giving artists with not as much money a chance. But I digress... It's true that I too have found many great new bands, I just carry a grudge
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 12:05
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Chris Stacey wrote:
Not that simple Chris, some time ago Peter Gabriel was in Prog Related (I had a chance to move him to Symphonic, but I didn’t because I believed and still believe his solo output is not Symphonic), and I’m a fan of his music, as I sad before look at my avatar from PG Plays Live. I did nothing to move him, he was moved to Crossover by Micky and I believe it’s OK, because despite PGI and PGII are Prog, other albums are poppier and others are world oriented, and his releases were discussed in Prtoo Prog/Prog Related Forum, because this forum has rules Please Chris, have you read y previous posts? I said clearly, that his merits as Genesis Brand X and Steve Hackett are undeniable, but as solo artist, he’s not Prog, as simple as that. Shifting any discussion about him to the general discussion seems the height of disrespect. Was talking about PG in the Proto Prog/Prog Related Forum a disrespect for him? I believe not, because according to Prog Archives he was a Prog Related Artist until Micky moved him to Crossover. (With what I agree). It’s our system, our proccesdure, as simple as that. Chris Stacey wrote:
Phil Collins never released a single Prog album, so he can’t be added to Prog Archives, Face Value is POP as all his albums, so we can’t add him. Atilla is here, they did a Prog album before they split, but would you justify the inclusion of Billy Joel because he was the lead man of Attila? I don’t know if 10cc addition is ok, but two mistakes don’t make a correct answer. Iván -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 12:54
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Last November, Easy Livin', an Admin, suggested that artists who were members of prog bands merited inclusion in Prog Related (discussion was regarding solo album from Laura Meade (?) from Izz). Therefore I started the below thread suggesting inclusion of Phil Collins in PA as prog-related. Most responses were similar to what is being said here, and I commend Ivan for his rabid consistency, which I know that he prides himself in. Anyhow, in case there is any interest see the below link for the responses to including PC in PA. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43521&KW=phil+collins - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43521&KW=phil+collins ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 13:04
Scott, according to that suggestion, we should include The Police (Stewart Copeland was a member of Curved Air), and even Motorhead (Lemmy was a member of Hawkwind) - plus a host of other bands I can't even think of now  .... |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 13:44
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Raff, personally I don't have a problem with The Police in prog related. Motorhead would be more of a stretch for me, but I have seen others talk about them having influence on prog metal, so if the category fits... As you are apt to say, "prog related does not equal prog". As I said in that thread and elsewhere I have no problem with "once all of the full-fledged prog bands have been taken care of, we can move on to the prog related bands". Despite that, I have no doubt that Phil Collins would be included in the prog-related category based on his relation to Genesis, Brand X, etc... if it wasn't for the fact that there are influential members such as Ivan that are dead set against his inclusion. And yes, I understand that it is the Admins that choose who goes into prog-related and not the collaborators, but including Phil Collins in a non prog category called prog-related would anger too many people like Ivan and thus for what is considered the good of the site, PC hasn't been included. I don't have to agree with it, but I can accept it for what it is.
BTW, that is one evil looking cat in your latest picture. -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 13:54
Though prog-related is not prog, it should be related musically, not just because someone was in a band. Personally, I wouldn't raise a stink if PC was included (I am far too open-minded for that, and if I have to get mad, I have plenty of other reasons in real life ...), but I am quite sure lots of people would, and this would be detrimental for the site. Let's face it, while people may turn up their noses at the likes of Iron Maiden or Queen, neither of those bands are considered 'traitors' to the prog cause, or destroyers of one of the most influential prog bands ever. Musically, PC's output has very little if anything to do with prog, and he has often expresses his dissociation from anything related to our beloved genre. That said, I agree with the thread title, if we consider PC's contribution to Genesis and Brand X, as well as some of his session work with other prog musicians. I have never been a fan of his, and I find his voice rather irritating, but I have never shared the hatred lots of people seem to have for him. His music leaves me mostly cold, and if I want to listen to pop there are lots of other artists I'd rather choose - but I don't see him as the devil incarnate. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:13
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I believe that we are pretty much in agreement, so I won't press my luck. However, Phil Collins' solo albums sound very similar musically to the latter day Genesis albums, which I think is one of the reasons that Phil Collins gets so much of the blame for Genesis' latter day sound. He went on to have great commercial success with his solo albums. During this period of time, the Genesis albums that were released were in someways indistinguishable from the Phil Collins' releases. Probably moreso due to Phil Collins' vocal delivery than from a musical delivery, but the similarity is there. Phil had followed a successful formula with his solo albums, and the members from Genesis did quite well for themselves following that formula. Although, I am too lazy to look and see which came first, the first commercially successful Phil Collins album or the first commercially successful Genesis album, but I think that it was Phil Collins. Is Phil Collins' solo prog? Unlike Ivan I say there are some "prog notes". but no, Phil Collins' solo is not a prog artist. But he does mix jazz with R&B and rock. He does add horns to the drum-guitar-bass rock formula. OK. So I did press my luck, but... -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:14
I was just logging in to say that. I want to say, though, that many in Prog Related released Prog material. Sometimes it's a question of how much, and how much is perceived to be Prog (and people differ on that, what is Prog to me may not be Prog to others). Others released music that shares many of the same attributes as Prog, without being truly Prog. It requires quantitative and qualitative (as in prog elements) decisions, and a certain (or should that be uncertain?) amount of subjectivity comes in to play. I'm more of an inclusionist than many. For instance, Elton John has been nixed for Prog Related, yet if it were up to me, I would include him. I consider the Alan Parsons Project to be Prog enough for a Prog category. We'll never get in all of the prog artists in, cause there are always more (and a great many older ones that are extremely obscure), and the boundaries of what is considered prog are expanding. I don't hear enough Prog, or even proggy material, for Phil Collins to be included here. If someone wants to make an argument for his inclusion, it has to be on his solo music itself. Back on topic: I'm going to be PC and say PC made good music, but I don't think his solo career warrants inclusion in the archives (but then I don't know all of his music). EDIT: And I don't think of latter day Genesis as a Prog band, either. They're in for earlier material, so it doesn't matter to me if Phil Collins has a similar sound to the non-prog (or semi-prog) Genesis era unless Phil Collins is sufficiently semi-prog as a solo artist. Incidentally, I'm no expert on PC's music. |
Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:21
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imo, Prog Related should be a category for artists who, while not truly prog themselves (PCs solo output) are in fact related to prog via their contributions to progressive music, which in PCs case is a nobrainer with Genesis, and even what he did with Brand X in and of itself. I would also note that he contributed to a number of other people's prog albums as a drummer and singer (ie, Hackett's Voyage of the Acolyte, Anthony Phillips' Geese and the Ghost, Gabriel's solo albums, including a definitive drum track on Intruder), so if those are prog albums, why wouldn't he be at least related to prog for that work? If the idea is to alert readers to artists who are related to prog, but not prog themselves, then Collins should be included. There seems to be two views on what the purpose of the prog related category is, and some people treat it as a dumping ground for people that are somewhat proggy, but not proggy enough (David Gilmour).
On the other hand, when I read comments Phil makes like "I am not a big fan of a lot of stuff we did in the past" (referring to the Gabriel era), I want to wring Phil's neck.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:26
| But there are so many non-prog solo artists that worked with prog bands, for me it would be a bit of a waste of energy and bandwidth. I much prefer Prog Related to mean music that has a relation to prog and music that is likely to appeal to those into Prog generally. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:29
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I don't mean to cause trouble here, -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:32
Seconded . As a side note, if you want to see where the notion of 'prog-related' (meaning in this case associated with a prog band) can take, look at the bands and artists included in the Prog-Related section at ProgGnosis (otherwise an excellent resource, with a HUGE database of artists). I am sure it will be a very enlightening experience for everyone. |
Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:34
I think that is a vast overstatement. Obviously, since the vocalist is the same, the albums of a solo artist are always going to sound similar, but if you listen to ALL of Abacab, Genesis, IT and WCD, there are many many songs which would NEVER be on a Phil Collins solo album. This is the kind of generalization which grates on me, because it really taints what Genesis was in my opinion. Phil Collins would never do songs such as Me and Sarah Jane, Abacab, Home by the Sea, Silver Rainbow, Land of Confusion, Domino, The Brazilian, Fading Lights, Dreaming While You Sleep, Driving the Last Spike, Living Forever to name a few, on his solo albums. Genesis still did progressive songs all the way to the end, and to say those albums are indistinguishable is just too much.
and by the way, Genesis first big commercial success was Trick of the Tail way back in 1976, and their first hit was Follow You Follow Me in 1978. Phil's first solo album wasn't until 1981, after the Duke album.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:37
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oh hell yeah... Steve Winwood anyone... far more PR in his solo material... and his prog connections are beyond reproach the point.. . PC is a Pandora's Box.. open it at your peril ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:41
Well again, then what do you call the Duke suite (with Duchess, Duke's Travels etc)? Heathaze? Cul De Sac? Abacab? DodoLurker? Me and Sarah Jane? Mama? Home by the Sea? Silver Rainbow? Domino? The Brazilian? Fading Lights? Dreaming While You Sleep? Driving the Last Spike? Virtually all of Calling All Stations?
Genesis had plenty of prog output well into 1998. In fact, I could make a case that they were the ONLY big prog band from the 70s that still was playing progressive music well into the 80s except for Floyd and Crimson. And as a live band they certainly were a progressive band all the way through. When you play a lot of progressive rock live, it seems kind of silly to not call them a progressive rock band. You just don't STOP doing what you have always done, or FORGET how to play In the Cage or Ripples or Firth of Fifth.
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Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:42
Winwood is not in prog related??? You have to be kidding. That is a travesty. His work on Stomu Yamashta's Go Sessions ALONE should put him there.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:47
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oh course he is not.. if he was... all those who are not familar with his work... would be calling for Phil Colins to be included. Raff and I are HUGE fans of his.. and have never thought ONCE about including him here. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:48
and there are some that say progressive with some pop songs thrown in, or progressive pop. The pop songs just happened to be more successful. I was at 4 Genesis concerts last fall, and there were some younger concert goers who had confused looks on their faces when Genesis launched into 10+ minute progressive songs from the 80s such as Home by the Sea and Domino.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:50
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No offense meant with that comment. As a fan of latter day Genesis and Phil Collins there are at times where I hear a song from one or the other on the radio in which I don't remember whether it was performed by Genesis or by Phil Collins. Land of Confusion being one of the examples. At least to me, I feel a song like In the Air Tonight would have fit just as easily on a Genesis album. The song and music have a progressive feel to me. And the story has a kind of VDGG darkness to it.
Thanks for the clarification on the dates.  That makes sense. I was kind of figuring on Abacab as the beginning of their commercial success. I think that Phil took the success of songs like Follow You Follow Me and built his solo career around songs in a similar vein. I also think that it was Phil's solo career success that led to the albums after Duke becoming more commercially accessible and commercially successful. Keep in mind, I like both, so I am not saying this as a bad thing. -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:53
| I realise that Genesis released plenty of Prog material in the 80's up (and even though I don't care for it, I still think of Duke as a mostly prog album). But I don't think of Genesis primarily as a Prog band post Duke, at least. That's why I mentioned semi-prog. I was just thinking that if Phil Collins is not influenced by Genesis prog-side (even latter day) then that makes him less worthwhile for inclusion. It's rather tangential to some former discussion. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:55
Rushfan: I know the Prog Related definition perfectlt because I wrote it (After being approved by the Collaborators abnd the Administration Team), and there's a parragraph that clearly state Phil Collins is not a case:
iT'S CLEAR ENOUGH, THE PERFORMANCE OF AN INSTRUMENT INA PROG BAND, DOESN'T JUSTIFY AN INCLUSION.
He wouyld had required to release a Prog or Prog Related album as a solo artist and he only did POP.
Now this issue has been debated "ad nauseam" and the almost unanimous decision has been no, so we can't go against our own internal rules.
Now, pelase don't come with the argument that X band is here, because probably that band was a mistake, but making a mistake doesn't justify a second mistake.
Iván
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:59
Yes, I am in agreement with that degree.
Last summer's tour was the first time that I was lucky enough to see them live. Not too much before that, I saw Phil Collins for the first time on his "1st Retirement" tour. Kind of tongue in cheek humor from PC. During the Genesis show, the fans definitely headed for the restrooms and the concessions stands during In The Cage.
During Phil's solo show, him and Chester Thompson opened with a 10 minute drum duet, and of course there were fans in the crowd who didn't even know that Phil was a drummer.
Both were excellent shows however.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:05
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Ivan, Where's my blue ink? As you said, this has been discussed ad nauseum. My initial point of that post was to provide a link to that previous discussion in relation to the prior posts in this thread, not to start a new discussion. However, when a new discussion was started, I couldn't help myself but to join in. -------------
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Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:20
In the Air Tonight, a very progressive song in my opinion-----the gated reverb effect on the drums was unheard of before then----was offered to Banks and Rutherford for Abacab, and lo and behold they rejected it for inclusion. I agree, it should have been a Genesis song, and who knows what effect that would have had on Phil's solo career. That song alone got him the huge commercial success that later followed. Had that been a Genesis song, he may not have had the same solo success. I think that song alone is progressive enough to be considered prog related----again, for 1980/81, that kind of huge minimalist drum sound, first used by Phil on Intruder--another prog song, was hugely influential on the sound of music in the 80s as a whole.
I also think I Don't Care Anymore, from the second Phil album, would have been a good Genesis tune, and again is based on that huge drum sound which so influenced music in the 80s. FYFM was actually a Rutherford tune, but was the start of Genesis being noticed more on the radio. There is no doubt that Collins' solo success influenced and carried over to Genesis in the 80s as he wrote more and had more input on the albums, but those albums were still filled with progressive music.
I do remember going to several Genesis concerts in the 80s and being irritated when I heard people (usually girls) say things like "I hope Phil plays In the Air Tonight or Sussudio". I would have to gently remind them that they wouldn't, as this was a Genesis concert.
Re your experience on the reunion tour that people got up during In The Cage, that suprises me. At each of the concerts I was at, by far the biggest "bathroom" song was Hold on My Heart, after In the Cage/Afterglow. In fact, on the Genesis forums, people actually called that song the "bathroom break song".
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Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:32
1--check
2--check
3--check
hmmm. It seems to me that Collins contributions to Brand X, to various prog solo albums like Hackett's, Rutherford's, Phillips' and Gabriel's, AND his huge influence musically on the sound of progressive music in the 80s with the gated reverb effect of that huge drum sound on songs like In the Air Tonight would fulfill all those criteria. Also, a tune like The West Side is certainly on the jazz fusion side of prog as anything groups like Weather Report did. ie, he may not be prog as a solo artist, but he sure is close to Prog.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:56
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