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Topic ClosedThe next U.S. President (for non-US members only)
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Poll Question: Who do our non-U.S. members think should be the next U.S. president?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
1 [1.64%]
13 [21.31%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [1.64%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [1.64%]
1 [1.64%]
32 [52.46%]
9 [14.75%]
1 [1.64%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [3.28%]
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IVNORD View Drop Down
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2008 at 23:51
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

  (funny how the Scandies higher tax rates are never brought up when discussing countries with the highest standard of living AND competitiveness.
Funny you mention it...
A couple of years ago I traveled thru Scandinavia and saw the highly praised highest standard of living AND competitiveness. We rented apartments (as opposed to staying in hotels) living in real conditions (as opposed to tourist arrangements) and mingling with the locals. I would say the owners of the apartments could be considered middle class by their standards, but their standard of living is more of our (and your)working class. Of course, by averaging the US poor and rich you get a lower reading than Scandinavia where the population is more level. Whether it's better or not is debatable. On one hand it would be nice to have all people living equally well; on the other, why would you work your ass off if you have no incentive to do so. Our hosts in Iceland were thoroughly entertained by the fact that my wife managed to get a 3-week vacation (she has 4 weeks a year but  can leave for 2 contiguous weeks at best, usually 1) while they have 6 weeks by law. And it's only in the summer; 2 more in the winter. And of course, they were in total disbelief when I said I had to get up at 5 am to go to work as even supermarkets in Iceland open up at 10 am. So you work less you get less. I would consider myself to be a typical struggling middle class guy, but to them I would be rich. So much for their highest standard of living. As for their highest competitiveness I think you're mistaken too.


Strange that I've never noted anything remotely like it before. But then I live in Sweden, where supermarkets open at 7 or 8 Sleepy
I didn't mean it in any way derogatory. I just responded to a statement which was similar in nature to the one before it. If you take statistics out of context, you can prove the "un-provable." When you have one guy at a relative level of 50, the next one at 49, the next one at 51, and so it goes for the next 997 guys, it's hard to miss the average mark of 50. If you have 30 guys at the 5 level, 100 guys at 8, 200 at 70, and 1 fellow at 100, chances are the average would not be that great.
 
Your standard of living is achieved thru high taxation and redistribution of wealth. Just look at your high prices. It appears you get many things for free, from health care to education, but you really pay for it with taxes. That's why you have less pocket money left than we do. This system of equalization must rely on on integrity and social responsibility of its citizens as there is very little incentive to work hard. If you disagree with me, present your argument, not just a superficial phrase.
 
Supermarkets in Stockholm really open at 7 (we have some open 24 hours). We were pleasantly surprised to see rush hour crowds in the subway at 7 in the morning wnen we arrived there by train from Oslo. In Oslo we could not find any place open for breakfast around 7:30 on a business day. When we mentioned it to a Swedish couple, the wife who often traveled to Norway said that the Swedes work hard. She kept repeatin it until the husband said to her, "don't tell THEM" meaning we knew what hard work is.
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Points: 10665 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 08:17
This system of equalization must rely on on integrity and social responsibility of its citizens as there is very little incentive to work hard.

Absolutely. But I think one have to start somewhere and then gradually TRY to build up these elements. Politics for me is built on faith in humanity, and if you lack it, it doesn't matter where you stand within the political spectrum. All is lost anyway.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 14:10
Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

  (funny how the Scandies higher tax rates are never brought up when discussing countries with the highest standard of living AND competitiveness.
Funny you mention it...
A couple of years ago I traveled thru Scandinavia and saw the highly praised highest standard of living AND competitiveness. We rented apartments (as opposed to staying in hotels) living in real conditions (as opposed to tourist arrangements) and mingling with the locals. I would say the owners of the apartments could be considered middle class by their standards, but their standard of living is more of our (and your)working class. Of course, by averaging the US poor and rich you get a lower reading than Scandinavia where the population is more level. Whether it's better or not is debatable. On one hand it would be nice to have all people living equally well; on the other, why would you work your ass off if you have no incentive to do so. Our hosts in Iceland were thoroughly entertained by the fact that my wife managed to get a 3-week vacation (she has 4 weeks a year but  can leave for 2 contiguous weeks at best, usually 1) while they have 6 weeks by law. And it's only in the summer; 2 more in the winter. And of course, they were in total disbelief when I said I had to get up at 5 am to go to work as even supermarkets in Iceland open up at 10 am. So you work less you get less. I would consider myself to be a typical struggling middle class guy, but to them I would be rich. So much for their highest standard of living. As for their highest competitiveness I think you're mistaken too.


Strange that I've never noted anything remotely like it before. But then I live in Sweden, where supermarkets open at 7 or 8 Sleepy
I didn't mean it in any way derogatory. I just responded to a statement which was similar in nature to the one before it. If you take statistics out of context, you can prove the "un-provable." When you have one guy at a relative level of 50, the next one at 49, the next one at 51, and so it goes for the next 997 guys, it's hard to miss the average mark of 50. If you have 30 guys at the 5 level, 100 guys at 8, 200 at 70, and 1 fellow at 100, chances are the average would not be that great.
 
Your standard of living is achieved thru high taxation and redistribution of wealth. Just look at your high prices. It appears you get many things for free, from health care to education, but you really pay for it with taxes. That's why you have less pocket money left than we do. This system of equalization must rely on on integrity and social responsibility of its citizens as there is very little incentive to work hard. If you disagree with me, present your argument, not just a superficial phrase.
 
Supermarkets in Stockholm really open at 7 (we have some open 24 hours). We were pleasantly surprised to see rush hour crowds in the subway at 7 in the morning wnen we arrived there by train from Oslo. In Oslo we could not find any place open for breakfast around 7:30 on a business day. When we mentioned it to a Swedish couple, the wife who often traveled to Norway said that the Swedes work hard. She kept repeatin it until the husband said to her, "don't tell THEM" meaning we knew what hard work is.
 
What I think makes a big difference is that people in Europe are not raised to believe that having money = being happy, therefore they can afford to live with less pocket money if they will have enough time to actually LIVE (family life, vacation time, etc) and health and education provided by the state. So there's where the difference lies: many americans will never understand how somebody can prefer to have more time off and health and education instead of a pocket full of money to buy, buy, buy. For europeans (I talk espaically about Germany but I'm sure it's like that in Scandinavia) money is NOT the measure for happiness, as is in the US. In europe people perefer time to go learn something, get some culture, art, a luxury that only the rich people can have in the US, where the "high standard of living of the middle class" only gives them at best 3 weeks off and a few hours every week, and where they can be fired for whatever reason which causes them to have to submit to their employer's all needs.
 
I'd trade my "pocket full of money" with some QUALITY TIME every day...
 
And of course, I can't say which is better... It can be said that the amount of money you can spend is the measure of happiness, and an argument can be made in favor of that... As well as the opposite... that's probably why you don't see millions of europeans coming to live in the US, and you don't see millions of americans going to live in Europe. Both know what they want, and they stay where they ahve what they want.
 
Poor third-world country people have to surrender their own values and come in millions to the US or Europe because they can't afford the luxury of being able to stay and live within their own value system... Cry


Edited by The T - April 28 2008 at 14:17
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 17:53
Maybe you're right as to the Immigration direction T; but the rich tend to jet to Paris, London, Rome when they jet to impress. Europeens generally do the same. L.A. is just too passe, ya se ...
Canadians on the other hand, used to  drive down to Bangor Maine for shopping trips to spend our dollars. But now that we've become oil magnates, we spend our petro-dollars in Orono, Maine Big%20smile
Then we spend our Canadian Tire money in Moncton.
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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IVNORD View Drop Down
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 19:19
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

This system of equalization must rely on on integrity and social responsibility of its citizens as there is very little incentive to work hard.

Absolutely. But I think one have to start somewhere and then gradually TRY to build up these elements.
I think it's going in the opposite direction now. In most west european countries the population had strong wwork ethics, but it seems to deteriorate gradually as human nature creeps into this equation. It's tempting to abuse the system which offers unemployment benefits of the same value as one's last work pay, etc. 
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

Politics for me is built on faith in humanity, and if you lack it, it doesn't matter where you stand within the political spectrum. All is lost anyway.
I think politics is built on a faith in stupidity of humans. Just try to listen to politicians, you'll see. And it really doesn't matter where you stand within the political spectrum.


Edited by IVNORD - April 28 2008 at 19:46
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 19:45
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

  (funny how the Scandies higher tax rates are never brought up when discussing countries with the highest standard of living AND competitiveness.
Funny you mention it...
A couple of years ago I traveled thru Scandinavia and saw the highly praised highest standard of living AND competitiveness. We rented apartments (as opposed to staying in hotels) living in real conditions (as opposed to tourist arrangements) and mingling with the locals. I would say the owners of the apartments could be considered middle class by their standards, but their standard of living is more of our (and your)working class. Of course, by averaging the US poor and rich you get a lower reading than Scandinavia where the population is more level. Whether it's better or not is debatable. On one hand it would be nice to have all people living equally well; on the other, why would you work your ass off if you have no incentive to do so. Our hosts in Iceland were thoroughly entertained by the fact that my wife managed to get a 3-week vacation (she has 4 weeks a year but  can leave for 2 contiguous weeks at best, usually 1) while they have 6 weeks by law. And it's only in the summer; 2 more in the winter. And of course, they were in total disbelief when I said I had to get up at 5 am to go to work as even supermarkets in Iceland open up at 10 am. So you work less you get less. I would consider myself to be a typical struggling middle class guy, but to them I would be rich. So much for their highest standard of living. As for their highest competitiveness I think you're mistaken too.


Strange that I've never noted anything remotely like it before. But then I live in Sweden, where supermarkets open at 7 or 8 Sleepy
I didn't mean it in any way derogatory. I just responded to a statement which was similar in nature to the one before it. If you take statistics out of context, you can prove the "un-provable." When you have one guy at a relative level of 50, the next one at 49, the next one at 51, and so it goes for the next 997 guys, it's hard to miss the average mark of 50. If you have 30 guys at the 5 level, 100 guys at 8, 200 at 70, and 1 fellow at 100, chances are the average would not be that great.
 
Your standard of living is achieved thru high taxation and redistribution of wealth. Just look at your high prices. It appears you get many things for free, from health care to education, but you really pay for it with taxes. That's why you have less pocket money left than we do. This system of equalization must rely on on integrity and social responsibility of its citizens as there is very little incentive to work hard. If you disagree with me, present your argument, not just a superficial phrase.
 
Supermarkets in Stockholm really open at 7 (we have some open 24 hours). We were pleasantly surprised to see rush hour crowds in the subway at 7 in the morning wnen we arrived there by train from Oslo. In Oslo we could not find any place open for breakfast around 7:30 on a business day. When we mentioned it to a Swedish couple, the wife who often traveled to Norway said that the Swedes work hard. She kept repeatin it until the husband said to her, "don't tell THEM" meaning we knew what hard work is.
 
What I think makes a big difference is that people in Europe are not raised to believe that having money = being happy, therefore they can afford to live with less pocket money if they will have enough time to actually LIVE (family life, vacation time, etc) and health and education provided by the state. So there's where the difference lies: many americans will never understand how somebody can prefer to have more time off and health and education instead of a pocket full of money to buy, buy, buy. For europeans (I talk espaically about Germany but I'm sure it's like that in Scandinavia) money is NOT the measure for happiness, as is in the US. In europe people perefer time to go learn something, get some culture, art, a luxury that only the rich people can have in the US, where the "high standard of living of the middle class" only gives them at best 3 weeks off and a few hours every week, and where they can be fired for whatever reason which causes them to have to submit to their employer's all needs.
 
I'd trade my "pocket full of money" with some QUALITY TIME every day...
 
And of course, I can't say which is better... It can be said that the amount of money you can spend is the measure of happiness, and an argument can be made in favor of that... As well as the opposite... that's probably why you don't see millions of europeans coming to live in the US, and you don't see millions of americans going to live in Europe. Both know what they want, and they stay where they ahve what they want.
 
Poor third-world country people have to surrender their own values and come in millions to the US or Europe because they can't afford the luxury of being able to stay and live within their own value system... Cry
You're probably right, having money doesn't play such an important role in Europe. BUt it's not what we're discussing here. Neither are we arguing about our lifestyle preferences. I've just countered a mendacious claim
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Points: 10665 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 20:06
I've just countered a mendacious claim


If you're referring to me, that's what I did. Namely your generalisation. But lets not get into a fight over that. it seems we agree to disagree on most things anyway.
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 20:34
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

I've just countered a mendacious claim


If you're referring to me, that's what I did. Namely your generalisation. But lets not get into a fight over that. it seems we agree to disagree on most things anyway.
I wasn't referring to you. How was mine a generalization, let alone mendacious? If you compare things, they must be comparable. You have more middle class population than we do, but the standard of living of your middle class is lower than ours.
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Points: 10665 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 20:46
I was thinking about the supermarket thing and our work ethics. Recently a study here in Sweden showed that those cheating were far less than what anyone anticipated. Can't speak how that number stands in comparison to that in the US, though. Just got a little irritated (sorry for that) because we get to hear so much about our poor work ethics, our last election was filled with it, and I've never seen proof of it. Which the study underlined.
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 21:01
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

I was thinking about the supermarket thing and our work ethics. Recently a study here in Sweden showed that those cheating were far less than what anyone anticipated. Can't speak how that number stands in comparison to that in the US, though. Just got a little irritated (sorry for that) because we get to hear so much about our poor work ethics, our last election was filled with it, and I've never seen proof of it. Which the study underlined.
I had mentioned the Iceland supermarkets only because it was quite amazing to compare with our 24-hour chains. I never heard of your poor work ethics in connection to supermarkets, but it would not surprise me that work ethics generally deteriorate under socialism as I've already stated there is little incentive and lots of temptation. But I still don't get it how I generalized it.
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Points: 8844 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 21:04
I know that I sure as hell wouldn't work very hard in a socialist state.  And by very hard I mean at all.  

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Points: 10665 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 21:08
It feels strange with people calling Sweden a socialist state. Especially since we have a market economy Stern%20Smile

But everything is relative LOL


Edited by LinusW - April 28 2008 at 21:08
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 21:20
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

It feels strange with people calling Sweden a socialist state. Especially since we have a market economy Stern%20Smile

But everything is relative LOL
You're not kidding! With all the attributes of socialism what else would you call Sweden? Market economy has nothing to do with it.
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Points: 10665 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 21:46
I'm only pointing out that it feels strange. Admittedly, we have strong collectivism leanings, it's just that socialism is such a loaded word, meaning different things for different people.
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 22:56
Originally posted by LinusW LinusW wrote:

I'm only pointing out that it feels strange. Admittedly, we have strong collectivism leanings, it's just that socialism is such a loaded word, meaning different things for different people.
True, the word has too many nuances... by the way, was it Sweden where people protested against LOWERING the income tax about a year ago? It would require to discontinue some social programs but they wanted to keep their entitlements
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Points: 19232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 03:36
looks like you can soon write 'dropped out' next to Hillary's name...Wink
Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 08:09
Hmm.



I live in much fear of this election for some reason. LOL




Edited by Slartibartfast - May 10 2008 at 08:20
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 1191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 20:44
Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

looks like you can soon write 'dropped out' next to Hillary's name...Wink
looks like something went wrong with the Dem strategy. Otherwise Hillary would have dropped out long ago
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Points: 1184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2008 at 20:57
Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

looks like you can soon write 'dropped out' next to Hillary's name...Wink
looks like something went wrong with the Dem strategy. Otherwise Hillary would have dropped out long ago


She recently suggested that superdelegates would decide the election next week...

//EDIT: Not to mention that if she were chosen, which she won't be, the dems would lose the election by a landslide...


Edited by Gamemako - May 30 2008 at 20:59
Hail Eris!
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