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Stoogefright View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Theism v. Atheism in Prog
    Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:34
With prog covering such complex and varied lyrical subjects as it does, the topic of religion is one that appears here more often than in your run-of-the-mill genres. Do you find the appearance of theistic or atheistic views more often in prog? What are your favorite treatments of either side?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:47
I do not care, as long as it is good music thedn I am fine with either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:56
Originally posted by jwxlite jwxlite wrote:

I do not care, as long as it is good music thedn I am fine with either.


Exactly... I do not care what Sabbath lyrics say neither Black Widow's, if the music makes me have some fun, that's more than just fine to me.
The same as Yes and Flower Kings, even though I may read the lyrics as curiosity, the meaning on me is rather worthless.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:57
I generally prefer humanistic topics. The most spirituality I can get without taking notice and having it alter my perception of the artist/music is Pain of Salvation's BE or typical Jon Anderson lyrics.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:08
BE


I know that wasn't even an answer to your question, but man that album...

yeah, it seems that there is a more jaded view of mainstream religion in prog (again see: BE!). I don't know how,  but people seem to take sub-themes in stride more easily when they are laced in long. long bits of music




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:18
As long as I don't feel preached to, I enjoy music that explores both -- as well as agnosticism.  It really does depend on the approach to the subject matter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:19
So far so good.Smile

Unfortunately I feel it necessary to intervene with a short message. I dont intend this as a sleight against the people who have posted so far.


To potential contributors to this thread:

any posts discussing the merits/demerits of atheism/theism will be deleted.



Edited by Tony R - May 06 2008 at 17:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:22
As an atheist, I tend to prefer atheist messages in my music (such as the song "Dear God" by XTC) to theistic messages, but I don't mind the latter.
 
That said, with prog, I try to ignore the lyrics altogether since they're usually pretty painful.
 
EDIT: to the above poster, read Tony's post above yours.


Edited by Pnoom! - May 06 2008 at 17:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:26
I'll listen to any band so long as my "inner detector" doesn't tell me I'm being proselytized to.  If I sense the band is in business to "spread the word" first and foremost, I'm gone.  There's a big difference between someone writing the occasional track about personal spiritual experience, and having a "mission" to convert others to their view.  The former is art, the latter is propaganda.  
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:26
A lot of Tool's lyrics are based on criticisms of religion but they do have a lot of
spiritualism based lyrics such as Lateralus.

I find it more interesting when lyrics actually mean something, rather than a bunch of word jumbled together (Jon Anderson).


Edited by king of Siam - May 06 2008 at 17:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:34
since I think good meaningful lyrics are important (for music that has lyrics), and messages and themes music conveys adds to the depth and importance of music, I think some of the best prog can
be very spiritual in nature (see my spiritual theme thread already going in the lists category I think). I thus tend to be attracted to music that has such spiritual or biblical themes such as Yes, FK, Genesis etc, as well as darker stuff like Porcupine Tree, but it certainly is not a requirement or something I actively search for. I can also thus understand those who want to sit at home on a Friday night with their favorite lager and headbang to their favorite Satanic doom music.Wink


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 06 2008 at 18:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 18:01
As a dedicated free-thinker, I find spirituality in lyrics a big, giant turn off; unless one is attracted to the lyrics for especially THAT reason (a la Neal Morse), then they just get in the way.  I find spiritual music (mostly Xtian, but not just) to be rather saccharine and bland-- with too many big grandiose moments sharing similarities (appropriately) with a gospel choruses. 
 
Does anyone know of a real cutting-edge, technically impressive religious band?  I am only familiar with the symphonic ones.  How do Christian listeners feel about this? 
 
I feel like the argument that "Theistic" music is somehow more inspiring or emotional is largely a matter of opinion, since the emotional impact of a given song is dependent more on the listener than anything.  Whether or not spiritual music is more "meaningful" is just as subjective, since I for one find more meaning in songs which challenge belief than those that glorify it.
 
On another note, I've been trying to expand my library of music with more athiestic or religiously critical groups and would love to hear anyone's suggestions.  Off the top of my head:
 
- Rush (my personal favorite)
- Frameshift's "Unweaving the Rainbow" (hurray Dawkins!)
- Porcupine Tree
- Evergrey
- Kamelot's "Black Halo" (although somewhat ambiguous)
- contemporary King Crimson
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 18:44
As a christian prog listener, and a free-thinker (somehow these terms are now mutually exclusive? **laughs**) i ALSO find almost all christian music to be boring, bland, and as ^ he points out, saccharine.
 Its not impossible to make good, religious music but so far no one has. Thats because too many people see the point of religious music to be NOT the music itself but the message, the lyrics. thats why the lyrics so often get in the way. They come before the music which only acts as a context for the message. bleh.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 19:45
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

So far so good.Smile

Unfortunately I feel it necessary to intervene with a short message. I dont intend this as a sleight against the people who have posted so far.


To potential contributors to this thread:

any posts discussing the merits/demerits of atheism/theism will be deleted.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:05
Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

[QUOTE=jwxlite] I do not care, as long as it is good music thedn I am fine with either.


Exactly... I do not care what Sabbath lyrics say neither Black Widow's, if the music makes me have some fun, that's more than just fine to me.
QUOTE] yep, same here.  I don't care either way, and I'm consistent with that...if you want to preach in the music, preach, but have some good guitar riffs behind it and I won't complain.  I hear people compain about religion in music, but they have no problem when a band preaches the other way around.  Well that's all too darn complicated for me, so I just accept it as long as I don't feel offended; basically I don't care what a musicians' opinion is as long as they respect mine and my neighborsSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:10
oops, I didnt quite answer the OP's question. Id have to say my favorite treatment of this topic is BE, by Pain of Salvation. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:16
Deism* not Theism

It seems like prog is way more spiritual than most other types of music. Lyrics about a greater power or huge change are much more common than nihilistic or atheistic lyrics, at least I've noticed.

But prog is about the music. Christian rock bands may as well just stop playing and start writing poetry and essays, because for the most part it's just music as a vehicle to talk about Jesus. But a band like Kansas (ignoring the 80s) with religious overtones in their music kept the music important, like their 2002 album, and as a result stayed fresh.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 21:03
I find myself in agreement with everyone!  Excellent thread!
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 21:08
I hope this thread doesn't turn in a "Is God ruining prog" part 2.
Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2008 at 21:16
Originally posted by keiser willhelm keiser willhelm wrote:

As a christian prog listener, and a free-thinker (somehow these terms are now mutually exclusive? **laughs**) i ALSO find almost all christian music to be boring, bland, and as ^ he points out, saccharine.
 Its not impossible to make good, religious music but so far no one has. Thats because too many people see the point of religious music to be NOT the music itself but the message, the lyrics. thats why the lyrics so often get in the way. They come before the music which only acts as a context for the message. bleh.
 
For some good Christian prog try Proto Kaw (Kerry Livgren's band), Neal Morse, and Glass Hammer (the last two especially).
 
The lyrics matter to me, and just like anyone else, if I find something that bugs me about the lyrics, I will not listen again.  To each his/her own!  Peace.
Mark Wellman
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
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