Theism v. Atheism in Prog
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Topic: Theism v. Atheism in Prog
Posted By: Stoogefright
Subject: Theism v. Atheism in Prog
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:34
| With prog covering such complex and varied lyrical subjects as it does, the topic of religion is one that appears here more often than in your run-of-the-mill genres. Do you find the appearance of theistic or atheistic views more often in prog? What are your favorite treatments of either side? |
Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:47
| I do not care, as long as it is good music thedn I am fine with either. |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:56
Exactly... I do not care what Sabbath lyrics say neither Black Widow's, if the music makes me have some fun, that's more than just fine to me. The same as Yes and Flower Kings, even though I may read the lyrics as curiosity, the meaning on me is rather worthless. |
jwxlite wrote:Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:57
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I generally prefer humanistic topics. The most spirituality I can get without taking notice and having it alter my perception of the artist/music is Pain of Salvation's BE or typical Jon Anderson lyrics.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: cookieacquired
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:08
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BE I know that wasn't even an answer to your question, but man that album... yeah, it seems that there is a more jaded view of mainstream religion in prog (again see: BE!). I don't know how, but people seem to take sub-themes in stride more easily when they are laced in long. long bits of music ------------- 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:18
| As long as I don't feel preached to, I enjoy music that explores both -- as well as agnosticism. It really does depend on the approach to the subject matter. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:19
So far so good. Unfortunately I feel it necessary to intervene with a short message. I dont intend this as a sleight against the people who have posted so far. To potential contributors to this thread: any posts discussing the merits/demerits of atheism/theism will be deleted. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:22
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As an atheist, I tend to prefer atheist messages in my music (such as the song "Dear God" by XTC) to theistic messages, but I don't mind the latter.
That said, with prog, I try to ignore the lyrics altogether since they're usually pretty painful.
EDIT: to the above poster, read Tony's post above yours.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:26
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I'll listen to any band so long as my "inner detector" doesn't tell me I'm being proselytized to. If I sense the band is in business to "spread the word" first and foremost, I'm gone. There's a big difference between someone writing the occasional track about personal spiritual experience, and having a "mission" to convert others to their view. The former is art, the latter is propaganda.
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:26
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A lot of Tool's lyrics are based on criticisms of religion but they do have a lot of spiritualism based lyrics such as Lateralus. I find it more interesting when lyrics actually mean something, rather than a bunch of word jumbled together (Jon Anderson). |
Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:34
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since I think good meaningful lyrics are important (for music that has lyrics), and messages and themes music conveys adds to the depth and importance of music, I think some of the best prog can
be very spiritual in nature (see my spiritual theme thread already going in the lists category I think). I thus tend to be attracted to music that has such spiritual or biblical themes such as Yes, FK, Genesis etc, as well as darker stuff like Porcupine Tree, but it certainly is not a requirement or something I actively search for. I can also thus understand those who want to sit at home on a Friday night with their favorite lager and headbang to their favorite Satanic doom music.
 |
Posted By: Prog Leviathan
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 18:01
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As a dedicated free-thinker, I find spirituality in lyrics a big, giant turn off; unless one is attracted to the lyrics for especially THAT reason (a la Neal Morse), then they just get in the way. I find spiritual music (mostly Xtian, but not just) to be rather saccharine and bland-- with too many big grandiose moments sharing similarities (appropriately) with a gospel choruses.
Does anyone know of a real cutting-edge, technically impressive religious band? I am only familiar with the symphonic ones. How do Christian listeners feel about this?
I feel like the argument that "Theistic" music is somehow more inspiring or emotional is largely a matter of opinion, since the emotional impact of a given song is dependent more on the listener than anything. Whether or not spiritual music is more "meaningful" is just as subjective, since I for one find more meaning in songs which challenge belief than those that glorify it.
On another note, I've been trying to expand my library of music with more athiestic or religiously critical groups and would love to hear anyone's suggestions. Off the top of my head:
- Rush (my personal favorite)
- Frameshift's "Unweaving the Rainbow" (hurray Dawkins!)
- Porcupine Tree
- Evergrey
- Kamelot's "Black Halo" (although somewhat ambiguous)
- contemporary King Crimson
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 18:44
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As a christian prog listener, and a free-thinker (somehow these terms are now mutually exclusive? **laughs**) i ALSO find almost all christian music to be boring, bland, and as ^ he points out, saccharine. Its not impossible to make good, religious music but so far no one has. Thats because too many people see the point of religious music to be NOT the music itself but the message, the lyrics. thats why the lyrics so often get in the way. They come before the music which only acts as a context for the message. bleh. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 19:45
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:05
Exactly... I do not care what Sabbath lyrics say neither Black Widow's, if the music makes me have some fun, that's more than just fine to me. QUOTE] yep, same here. I don't care either way, and I'm consistent with that...if you want to preach in the music, preach, but have some good guitar riffs behind it and I won't complain. I hear people compain about religion in music, but they have no problem when a band preaches the other way around. Well that's all too darn complicated for me, so I just accept it as long as I don't feel offended; basically I don't care what a musicians' opinion is as long as they respect mine and my neighbors  ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:10
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oops, I didnt quite answer the OP's question. Id have to say my favorite treatment of this topic is BE, by Pain of Salvation.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: puma
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:16
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Deism* not Theism It seems like prog is way more spiritual than most other types of music. Lyrics about a greater power or huge change are much more common than nihilistic or atheistic lyrics, at least I've noticed. But prog is about the music. Christian rock bands may as well just stop playing and start writing poetry and essays, because for the most part it's just music as a vehicle to talk about Jesus. But a band like Kansas (ignoring the 80s) with religious overtones in their music kept the music important, like their 2002 album, and as a result stayed fresh. |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 21:03
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I find myself in agreement with everyone! Excellent thread! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: moodyxadi
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 21:08
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I hope this thread doesn't turn in a "Is God ruining prog" part 2. ------------- Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante. |
Posted By: Drumolator
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 21:16
For some good Christian prog try Proto Kaw (Kerry Livgren's band), Neal Morse, and Glass Hammer (the last two especially).
The lyrics matter to me, and just like anyone else, if I find something that bugs me about the lyrics, I will not listen again. To each his/her own! Peace. ------------- Mark Wellman "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 22:15
I have sampled a little Neal Morse and some Glass Hammer a long time ago. I wasn't too into it (not really big on Neo in general) Ive been planning on giving it another try. Lyrics matter to me, and i really appreciate well thought out, interesting lyrics. Toby driver, Maynard Keenan, and whoever writes lyrics for the Pax Cecilia are some favorites of mine. but at the same time, the lyrics have to add or at least not detract from the music itself in terms of how they sound. (why i like jon anderson and dont just "put up" with him) ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 22:15
I'm not sure why, but that Devo song came to mind when I first saw that post.  I am sure it is allowed however to discuss a tangential issue, what's wrong with leaving those particular isms out of the music? Pure instrumental music just for music's sake, maybe you hear God or God's (Polytheism) in it or maybe you don't.  Let me elaborate further. If you are Theist or Atheist, how do you feel about instrumental prog? Does it have to be always light and mellow, or can you appreciate the heavier stuff? Do you shun stuff that really heavy and dark? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: metalisgood
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 23:39
| I listen to Christian, athiest/anti-religious, and satanic music... never am I really thinking "wow I would rather if they were ___", music is a form of expression and as long as they're expressing something that fits the music I'm indifferent to exactly what it is.. I even listen to some NSBM (national socialist black metal) which is known for racism, but I'm not one bit a racist, I might even listen to a bit of hip hop afterwards haha |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 03:00
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Truly atheistic music is hard to come by in prog. Even the atheists tend to present a somewhat theistic view when they write lyrics. Notice that atheistic and anti-religious are two very different things. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 03:29
Well said. I totally agree, as far as prog is concerned. I can't think of any prog that's determinedly atheist, apart from the well-known AQUALUNG. Something like VDGG, perhaps? As for religious ecstasy, I guess you there's plenty in "Nous sommes du soleil" and even RELAYER, but many people are going to find Jonnie A's lyrics laughable... Most of the greatest religious music (which still thrills me, even though I lost my faith long ago) uses the same handful of Latin texts, which seemed to be inexhaustible, at least from the Middle Ages until the 19th century. A pity (but totally understandable, of course) that no decent prog bands have ever tried using those... |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 03:37
| Usually, I only like religious lyrics when they're either parodic (for example, Black Sabbath's After Forever), used as mythology rather than meant literally or unorthodox enough to truly fascinate me. A good example of the last thing I mentioned is Hawkwind's new age spirituality, but that's because it somehow ties into my interest in UFOlogy and it's not really "theistic" either. |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 03:41
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I would go as far as to say Yes in the early days was a religious band. . . but who knows what the hell that man was writing about. CTTE is as close to a religious experience as you can get since the second coming. there was even a lyrical analysis of CTTE that someone did a while ago that linked religion into the song as an intrinsic part. That organ solo alone is a big nod to bach/church music, bach writing almost exclusively religious music (even if only in theory, i think he said at one point tat everything he did he did to glorify God so. . . he must have peed fountains of gold and turned urinal water to wine. id believe it too, listening to his music) and being well known for his organ skills/composing.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 09:04
Music with strong religious overtones, lyrically, are a real turn off to me. It is the biggest reason I can not listen to Neal Morse solo material.  ------------- 
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 09:58
Well said. I totally agree, as far as prog is concerned. I can't think of any prog that's determinedly atheist, apart from the well-known AQUALUNG. Something like VDGG, perhaps? QUOTE] In my opinion it's one thing to question the existance of a creator...explore the reasons why we're here as everyone does (VdGG), and to look at the downfalls of organized religion (Aqualung). Neither of these imply that there is no "god", it's more of attempt to be critical but fair. As I've said, if an artist can pull it off with class in either direction, then they should be respected and applauded, regardless of philosophical stances. So...yes, in this case, I think that the music, or the ART, is bigger than the belief. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 15:46
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"CTTE is as close to a religious experience as you can get since the second coming" UNTIL the second coming. It hasn't happened yet. Otherwise a completely true statement. |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 16:05
Ha ha thanks. i was having trouble wording that.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 19:18
Woah, woah, woah. Aqualung wasn't atheist. It was very anti-church and anti-religious, but the song "My God" (well atleast my interp. of, it but I thought the meaning was pretty clear) is about how the church has God locked up in a golden cage, not about how he doesn't exist altogether. ------------- 
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 19:19
-------------
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Posted By: 3.1415926535897
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 20:48
Or maybe we missed it?
 I don't mean to ridicule (I'm actually a Christian myself) but I couldn't resist. ------------- Men occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 20:56
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OK no more wisecracks about coming again.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 21:24
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I am the second coming.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Darklord55
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 21:34
Woah, woah, woah. Aqualung wasn't atheist. It was very anti-church and anti-religious, but the song "My God" (well atleast my interp. of, it but I thought the meaning was pretty clear) is about how the church has God locked up in a golden cage, not about how he doesn't exist altogether. [/QUOTE Exactly!! It's "PEOPLE what have you done, locked Him in a golden cage. Made Him bend to your religion, Him resurrected from the grave." That's not atheism. Plus I might add a couple more expressions that might describe most religious music, sappy and cheesy. I despise the Jesus is my boyfriend or locker room buddy type theology given to us by our evangelical terrorist friends. bleh bleh bleh. I think I just might play some Dimmu Borgir.
 Total Depravity!!! "No one is good, no not one." |
Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 21:48
Yea actually listening to Fredrick's solo section during "Bleed" (Meshuggah) is an extremely spiritual moment for me. I'm completely serious, I would almost call it 'holy', if that even means anything these days. It's really some of the most achingly beautiful music I've ever heard. -------------
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 02:36
Replace CTTE with Supper's Ready, and I would completely endorse this view.
Which is not to say that I don't love CTTE....
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 02:39
I had Jethro Tull in mind when I made the distinction between anti-religious and atheistic. You are definitely correct here.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 08:03
The original question is an utterly facile one...it's like asking if people prefer Beethoven or Mozart but only allowing the deaf to reply.... It should be self-evident that our responses are going to be indicative of our beliefs ? Here's a better one: Which do you prefer, chocolate or fish ? (Only those allergic to both chocolate and fish are permitted to respond to ensure fair, balanced and unbiased objectivity) Delete this post at your pleasure |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 08:54
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Thank You Exit the Lemming... Well put!
My standard answer for most of these so called burning questions will now be...
"I Like Both!" or perhaps "It's all good man"!
Why bother trying to get a point across. ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 10:01
------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 12:31
Your analogies are facile Mr 5 Posts only. What I dont want is a discussion about the merits of atheism or theism and deliberately antagonistic posts from people like you. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 13:23
OK Mr 13,515 posts (and counting) (Quote) "People like me" (unquote) could offer ELP's 'The Only Way' from 'Tarkus' as my favorite treatment of the atheistic side but could not offer an equivalent to the theistic side, as this is precisely because I have an atheist perspective on such matters. It would be both unreasonable and illogical to expect me to be moved by a paen to say, Buddha when I am not a Buddhist ? Yes, I may find the musical content and delivery moving, but as much as I may admire the messenger, the message itself cannot constitute a part of my admiration. This seems very obvious to me but you and others on the forum may have differing perspectives on the matter. As far as evaluating the merits or otherwise of contributions to a given topic based on the arithmetic sum of their postings, I would be hard pressed to devise a more facile measuring system if I tried. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 13:40
I hope you said that with a smile on your face. I'll send out the attack rodent otherwise.
 -------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 13:44
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OK so I forgot the smiley Love from Mr 6 Posts Only  |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 13:46
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Zero tolerance on trolls. [email protected] |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 14:16
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I dont think he was being trollish Tony, i think his argument is directed at a statement he misunderstood. Tony didnt say you couldnt bring religion into it, thats obviously going to happen. he just didnt want people coming in here and saying "atheism is stupid!" or "i cant believe people would believe in that thats ridiculous". Religion and your beliefs have to be brought into it, directly or indirectly and im sure they are allowed to be discussed as to how they relate to your opinion on the best treatment of religion in progressive music. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 14:22
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^^^
Yes
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 14:26
My post is quite clear.
Re-read it. Remember it please. If you wish to challenge Admin statements or actions please do it by PM or via the admin email address given above. Thank you. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 14:42
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To change the subject back to the subject, this might be a good time to mention the ProgArchives Featured Album of the Month called The Problem of Pain: Part 1 from Torman Maxt. It is a concept album with a Theism (Deism) theme relating to the story of Job.
(No need to bring up past issues with this album, however, mailto:M@x - M@x please forward my commission check
).Edit: Edited the title of the album. I think that I might have got it mixed up with a title of a Saga album called Pleasure and the Pain. ------------- 
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:23
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AQUALUNG not atheist? Then what do you make of Mr. Anderson's sleevenotes:
'In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him. 2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be god all over the earth when it was suited to Man. 3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.' Pretty obvious, isn't it? No matter what Ian may be singing about in "My God", and no matter what he may have said in certain interviews, these statements clearly point towards an atheist way of thinking. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:25
Never even listened to the damn album.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:35
Oh.. it's so closed related to Job's fable that it even teaches you.... to have PATIENCE and not press SKIP...  ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:37
Job's Fable??? huh... *fast train to hell with micky as conductor* Must have been sleeping that day in Bible study.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:41
It was on they day they talked about the watched kettle never boils...
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:41
| **cough** |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:49
I have to disagree that this is clearly an atheist way of thinking. although it could be seen as that from an atheist point of view and used to argue for atheism i think anderson meant it to be more of condemnation of organized religion, ie the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church wrote the bible, created the image of God, set up the idea of God gave him a multitude of names so he might be God all over the earth when it suited the Catholic Church. Ian doesnt come out and deny the existence of any god or a God, just the God created by the Catholic Church. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:51
bingo..... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:07
I'm afraid your reasoning is not totally correct, oh Kaiser. 1. In fact, Ian Anderson makes a point of attacking "The bloody Church of England / in chains of history", whilst AVOIDING attacks on the Roman Catholic Church. If you listen to the live performance of "My God" on the Isle of Wight album, it becomes clear that the mysterious words "and the graven image you know who / with his plastic crucifix" (which always puzzled me) originally ran as "and the graven image Catholic / with his plastic crucifix", which makes more sense. But for reasons unknown Ian changed his lyrics when he recorded the album. In that same live version, Anderson sings about Anglicans, Catholics and Jews. It seems obvious he was attacking all the monotheist religions he could think of (with Islam being far less familiar to 1970s Britons than it is now). 2. The Catholic Church neither "wrote the Bible" nor "set up the idea of God". Most of the Bible was written in Hebrew, long before the birth of Jesus. Monotheism was a Jewish invention (or discovery, if you prefer). |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:14
| I'm not sure this is the thread for this, but Judaism is not the first example of monotheism. Zoroastrianism, for example, came first. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:16
| Thanks Pnoom, I stand corrected. Wasn't Freddy Mercury a Zoroastrian? Don't think he sang about his beliefs, though... |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:20
| I wouldn't know; I've never really delved into the religious beliefs of musicians I like. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:21
| As did the beliefs of Amenhotep IV of the Kingdom of Egypt, if I'm not mistaken. |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:42
I was speaking from the point of view of anderson, so those aren't my thoughts per-say, but his. But the Catholic Church most definitely wrote the new testament, which although much shorter than the old, sets up an extremely new and radical image of God, very different from the Hebrew God of the old testament. And if you will, how does he attack judaism? he only attacks Organized religion as epitomized by the Catholic Church and, i missed this "The bloody Church of England / in chains of history", the Anglican church (very similar to Catholicism) I still stand by my post. in the end Ian doesnt reject all religion and all Gods, just the popularised Christian image of God. The last song My God is very telling. HIS God. not THEIR God. he doesnt reject all Gods and all religions as an atheist would, he takes HIS God. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:47
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"The Catholic Church wrote the bible, created the image of God, set up
the idea of God gave him a multitude of names so he might be God all
over the earth when it suited the Catholic Church. Ian doesnt come out and deny the existence of any god or a God, just the God created by the Catholic Church." Sits back and waits for the "Blue Storm" |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:55
I should have made this clearer. i was speaking from the point of view of Ian Anderson on Aqualung. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:57
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I do find it rather amusing that those who don't like being "preached at" in music have no problem with words like those of Anderson and the ELP tune oft cited in these threads. Both are extremely "preachy", they're just not Preachin' the Gospel. The Atheists preach just the same as anyone. Take the lyrics of Iluvatar's Better Days for example. If its not preaching (prosletyzing at the least) I don't know what is. Preaching according to Webster: intransitive verb1: to deliver a sermon2: to urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action; specifically : to exhort in an officious or tiresome mannertransitive verb1: to set forth in a sermon <preach the gospel>2: to advocate earnestly <preached revolution>3: to deliver (as a sermon) publicly All these definitions can be applied to song lyrics like those cited in these various threads. All of us like to be "agreed" with when we speak. We all (intentionally or not) make our best efforts to "make our cases" and convince our peers of the correctness of our thought, and we are only offended, or turned off, it seems, when others preach a different message than our own. If I preach that Genesis is better than Dream Theater I will have people calling me a heretic (Mr. T where are you) just as surely as if I preach the opposite. Song lyrics are a public forum and any song that has a point ihas elements of the sermon in it. It all comes down to how you choose to react to the message. If you don't want to be preached at, you'd better switch over to instrumental music or admit that the what you really mean by that is that you don't want to hear a message different than the one you believe. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 16:58
And then there's Matching Mole's "God Song", in which Robert Wyatt addresses the Deity Himself. Theist or Atheist? 
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 17:05
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Not prog, but my favorite song dealing with a/theism is Dear God by XTC. "Did you make mankind after we made you?" Pure genius. Pretty strong in it's message, but it raises a bunch of good points: Dear god,
Although I always thought ^^^ should be "well I know it ain't so to you." Would've been more powerful that way IMO.
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 17:54
Um. A grand total of 2 points raised. One is the fairly bland 'Humans (/The Church, which is more interesting) wrote the bible' argument. It's essentially a vicious circle. Anyone who believes the New Testament will believe that it was at least shaped by God, even if it wasn't worded by him. Conversely, anyone who does not believe it, will not. The other is the 'pain problem', which is harder to deal with, but has been covered before. It doesn't expand on either of them. Humans wrote the bible is essentially a moot point. If you believe in God, as defined by the Christian message, then you agree with it, if not, then you won't. Me, I can deal with any sort of lyrics, theistic or atheistic, that confront these issues in an intelligent manner. Mindless bashing without any argument just irritates me (see some Rush lyrics). At the OP, I don't think prog raises these issues that much more than other music, but a fair few of the bigger progressive names have confronted and been effective in their presentation of the issue, and a longer song time allows for a slightly more expansive argument. |
Posted By: Cthulu
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 19:39
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It doesn't matter very much to me. While I listen to both types (Iona, Kerry Livgren's "Seeds of Change"), I actually find the "blasphemous" attitude of ELP's "I Believe in Father Christmas" to be more interesting. ------------- "The Box. You opened it. We came." |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 19:46
And it very cleverly addresses both of those points. It's not philosophical, no, but it's clever. Which, in music, matters more than being pretentiously deep (which often happens). |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 19:52
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Just a thought for consideration: all Western music as we know it, and especially prog, was originally financed by the Catholic church. (No, I'm not a Catholic nor much of a Christian for that matter.) |
Posted By: Cthulu
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 19:59
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In "Aqualung" Ian Anderson was satirizing the treatment of God in organized religion. Anderson's album "Divinities: Twelve Dances with God" is New Age instrumental music about God! ------------- "The Box. You opened it. We came." |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 20:36
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If I'm not mistaken, Royal Hunt's album Paradox may be a whole concept album where the band deals with questioning why God does certain things.
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Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 21:25
Rockin the Papacy one Cardinal at a time.
Agnus Dei! ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: LanCaiHe
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 21:35
I think Prog does cover religious subjects more often, but it's not always that obvious. My favorite treatment of atheism in prog is from Emerson, Lake & Palmer's Tarkus album. "The Only Way". What a more brilliant way of doing it than to set the lyrics against a Bach prelude played on a pipe organ! Quite a cynical bite! Also, "Bitches Crystal" is another song off of Tarkus which attacks superstitious beliefs and the people who prey on other people's weaknesses. ------------- Jim |
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 22:54
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I am not an athiest but I did once have the pleasure of working with one on an album of his... Check out the song "Dreambook of Artemidorus" here: http://www.myspace.com/nicktosches - http://www.myspace.com/nicktosches Nick used to write for creem and rolling stone magazine... He is now an editor at vanity fair and he has written many biographies and novels.
It's the first song on top of the myspace player. I cannot say I agree with his sentiments concerning Jesus the man. ------------- https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 23:05
beautiful |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 00:30
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It's funny, but Marillion's "When I Meet God" doesn't bother me because as soon as I hear "When I meet God / I'm going to ask her..." ...I can't help but laugh. It's just a baseball bat of 90s anti-establishment sentiment to the head. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Figglesnout
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 01:39
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I think Ulver's music has a lot of religious themes (especially the Blake album) but I think they speak so vaguely on the subject (best example being on Blood Inside) that the lyrics come across more as a personal take on religion that a message per se, which I think benefits the subject. The whole Blood Inside album seems to focus on the aspects of death in general perhaps, and I think the way Ulver approaches religion is not preachy at all, but still gets a points across if one looks for it, I suppose.
It's very subtle and seems never ever to come before the music (except for perhaps one line, which seems to damn heaven as a joke of some sort). This is all odd and contrasts with the Blake album, which, obviously, reflects, either directly or indirectly, the religious viewpoints of Blake himself. Yet, again, the music typically seems to come before any sort of message they might have. I think they use theistic and I suppose atheistic elements as well to forward a more broad subject, which I think makes sense as it does not interfere with their music, and also it isn't trying to force any religious ideals down the throat of the listener--something many bands (*cough* RUSH *cough*) fail to achieve. Anyway, that was a bit scatterbrained, as I'm very tired. So i apologize for any possible incoherency. ------------- I'm a reasonable man, get off my case |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 02:03
Spot on! Perhaps the most cerebral, spiritual lyrics ever are on 'Awaken' from GFTO. What a crowning achievement that is for Anderson and for Yes!
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Posted By: Cthulu
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 02:23
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Don't forget Anderson and Yes were also inspired by The Bhagavad Gita when they created "Close to the Edge"! ------------- "The Box. You opened it. We came." |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 04:15
I know about "Twelve Dances with God". It's precisely the mellowing in Ian's attitude (in middle age) which led him to state (in his ISLE OF WIGHT DVD Commentary) that he was never against God as such. But this doesn't change the fact that AQUALUNG's liner notes (which I quoted earlier) sound atheist. I wonder why so many of you keep harping on the "fact" that Ian was ONLY against organised religion. Do you find it so hard to swallow that he might have had atheist ideas when young? As for Catholic church music: if you're adventurous in spirit, check out Joseph Haydn's late masses. There are about six or seven of them, all relatively short (around 30 minutes each), and they really rock. I'm not kidding you. Haydn's Glorias and Credos are as joyful and exhilerating as a Southern Baptist Gospel Choir! Especially in performances on "period instruments" (I recommend John Eliot Gardiner's), with prominent kettle drums, swinging gut strings and brass well to the fore! Finally: Yes' "Awaken" may be considered a "religious" piece of work, and the live recordings I have heard are quite exuberant, but I am usually put off by the lyrics, which are extraordinarily inept. Yeah, talk about preachin'... |
Posted By: Statutory-Mike
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 12:37
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I'm suprised no one has brought up Dream Theater's "In the Name of God". I'm still unsure whether they are on one side saying religon is corupt and terrible, or if they're presenting both sides and staying in the middle. ------------- 
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 12:43
Or for that matter, DT's "Voices".
God in politicians? Should I turn on my religion? These demon in my head tell me to" -------------
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 14:11
To cite Back Door Angels
That seems very general and anti-religious (not atheistic, but certainly anti-religious). If we can extrapolate intent back to Aqualung, then... @Pnoom. We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I didn't like the style or wording, so... |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 16:08
Grr, I detest that phrase, but yes, I can accept that.
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Posted By: RaúlGuate
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 00:25
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I just wanted to bring up one album that has lyrics that are virtually quotes of the bible: Popol Vuh's Seligpreisung http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=6133 My review for that album was poor... Anyway, I think that is a totally different perspective on what christian music usually is. (As a reply to those who said that christian music was rarely interesting). To the people who have heard it, ¿Do you find it preachy? |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 05:02
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I haven't heard Popol Vuh's album, Raul, but according to the reviews it's based on the Beatitudes: some of the most sublime passages from the Gospels. I also noticed the band (who seem to have a flair for ancient scripture) based one album, DAS HOHELIED SALOMOS, on the Song of Songs from the Hebrew Bible (i.e. the "Old Testament"), some of the most wonderful erotic poetry ever written.
No, preachy they are not. |
Posted By: Cthulu
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 05:48
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Just a little trivia for those of you who may not know; The band's name 'Popol Vuh' is taken from the name of the Mayan Codex. ------------- "The Box. You opened it. We came." |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 15:06
Right on! I really like Anderson´s spiritual lyrics, most specially the ones from Tales! Other than that, I dont know if many of the artist I listen have anything but spiritual lyrics, in the sense that I dont listen to any christian prog like Neal Morse for example, only Transatlantic, and I havent really picked up any religious themes, at least not very point out. The same goes with atheist. Personally I believe in God, but I wouldnt get too biblical with my band either ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 15:06
Actually it was Siddharta! ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: puma
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 19:38
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It seems like a lot of musicians of any genre tend to believe in individual spirituality rather than organized religion (with plenty of exceptions). Which makes perfect sense, because all of these musicians let their music take them over and become something greater than what they are. For the sake of controversy, playing music could be construed as a form of prayer. And atheist or deist or agnostic, all musicians feel that wave of happiness come over them when they play a great performance, they just call it differently. By that logic I think all the music on this site has a spirituality about it, as it's music for music's sake, rather than a band forming and writing songs just to say "f**k politics". I mean, Yes can say "f**k War" in the song Yours is No Disgrace, but they didn't form the band for that purpose. What do you think? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 22:29
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Oh, I should say Orphaned Land's "Mabool" is the perfect blend of religious storytelling and good prog. Not like Neal Morse, who drowns in his own preachiness.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 02:12
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Although a tad obscure and probably difficult to obtain now, there is the 1971 'Ten Commandments' album by UK proto proggers Salamander which is perhaps worthy of consideration as representing the theistic side. Although I don't personally share their faith, I do love the music and in this attractive setting can certainly be persuaded to respect a worldview that otherwise, would be closed to me. It's a record well worth hunting down, irrespective of your spiritual orientation. |
Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 12:07
Well I think liner notes 7 through 9 show the point of all his seemingly atheist and satirical remarks in notes 1 through 6: 7 - But as these things did come to pass, the Spirit that did cause Man to create his God lived on within all Men: even within Aqualung. 8 - And Man saw it not. 9 - But for Christ's sake he'd better start looking. It seems to me that Ian is saying that even though Man used God to rule over the Earth (in religion, church authority, etc.), it eventually came to pass (Protestants? Martin Luther? church reform/separation of church and state), and people (even Aqualung, which I think Ian was saying that all men are equal in the eyes of God) still contained 'the Spirit' (the voice of the real God, not Man's excuse-for-power God), but Man did not or can not see it (maybe because his mind is possessed by religion, and a belief system that inhibits a real connection with God) and that he needs to take the personal endeavor of finding God within him. Of course, some can see just whatever message they'd like out of those lyrics, though. Sure it "sounds" Athiest, but I think thats just Mr. Anderson being clever again. -------------
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Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:55
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I think what attracts me the most to progressive music is the depth of the songwriting and musicianship. I also prefer lyrics that have a deeper or more spiritual meaning. I enjoy Jon Anderson's lyrics probably the most. Now on the other side of the coin I also love Rush and Porcupine Tree. I may not agree with some of the lyrical content but I'm not afraid to listen to a different view point. Plus the music just freaking ROCKS! Keep in mind folks that religions are maintained by humans. Human's are not perfect so someone looking to find fault with any religion will always be able find ammunition. Religions can do some great things for people's lives but religions can also be twisted into making excuses for people to be very hurtful to other people who don't share their views. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what religion someone subscribes to, what is important is in people's deeds and how they treat their fellow human beings wether they believe in a certain religion or don't believe in any religion at all. "Be excellent to each other and party on dudes" Wild Stallions ------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb |