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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Re-assessing Asia
    Posted: April 30 2008 at 23:10

Having expelled that first Asia album from my music collection some twenty years ago, I recently picked up a copy of Anthologia for the princely sum of $11.00.  I had not heard them for a while and, having declared myself a member of the Spandau Ballet (and 80's synth-pop in general) fan club in another thread recently (with tongue not firmly implanted in cheek), I thought I'd give them another listen.  Hey, why not.  $11.00 won't buy much else these days.

So what do I newly discover but that I actually like some of their stuff.  Sure, it's not prog, but it is surely as good as most of your standard 80's synth-pop, maybe even a step or two above that since there is some decent musicianship (as opposed to mere production wizardry) involved.  It occurs to me that much of the disappointment in Asia comes from the simple fact that at the time, given the band members' pedigrees, we expected so much more.  What we got is a very good band playing some very good pop-rock.  I think they all in terms of the quality of the music acquit themselves pretty well -- particularly Wetton and Howe.  As for the quality of the songwriting, well let's just say it fit the times.  And it is a slog to get through that second CD, which of course is the later music.

So what do you think?  Do we want to buy Phoenix and encourage these guys a second time around or should we Just Say No?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2008 at 10:31
I just bought PHOENIX this week. At the first listening, thought it was dull. same ol', same ol'. Things got better after a second spin ,then a third one.
 I still don't think it's that outwordly but pleasant. The athmosphere has more to do with the last 2 ICON'S Downes/WEtton collaboration than the first 3 ASIA albums.
Except the first track NEVER AGAIN, this is quite a more introverte cd, definitely less bombastic and Hit making machine than what uou found on their first album...No SOLE SURVIVOR or WILDEST DREAMS here.
You have also more elaborated songs , 2 clocing at over 8mns which leave room for nice instrumental passages.. Not the proggiest of course, but nice anyway.
Still i need more listenings to have a definitive judgement.
Also you can hear STEVE HOWE playing some good ...old Steve Howe, not STARSHIP TROOPER of course, but he put some effort in it. Also DOWNES is good, i think. And WETTON hasn't lost his voice.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2008 at 13:30

I always laughed at the negativity toward Asia by the so called enlightened  "critics" right from the get go. They blasted and derided progressive rock in the 70s for being to long winded and self indulgent and made fun of these bands for an inability to write a 4 minute melodic rock song with a hook. They fell all over themselves forecasting the death of prog as they praised the rise of punk played by guys who couldn't hold a candle to the top prog rockers in the musical talent department. Then, when Asia's first album comes out and the thing is filled with melodic, well played 4 minute rock songs with catchy hooks, they deride THAT as selling out for big bucks and underplaying their talent etc. It was laughable. And on top of that of course, you had the prog elitists abhorrent in their scorn for some of their heroes to be 'selling out'.  The bottom line is that the first Asia album is filled with killer songs done in a streamlined manner. They could have all been proggier if they had included extended soloing, but they purposely did not do that because of the times. Sure, this is not deep material, but it was a breath of fresh air at a time when new wave weak ass synth pop, with androgynous frontmen and wimpy vocals, were dominating the charts and airwaves. That first album sounded nothing like the tinkly weak synth pop of the time, which is why it was such a breath of fresh air at the time.

 
The music industry needed a good kick in the ass in 1982, and I remember hearing that Asia album played in a record store, having no clue that this was even coming out, and being blown away by it right from the get go. Wetton has one of the great male voices in prog history, and Howe for once actually rocked out and played some killer guitar instead of noodling around. Palmer is a beast whether he is playing in 4/4 time or not, and Downes is an understated keyboard wiz. As opposed to a lot of that weak synth pop crap we were being rammed down our throats at the time, that Asia album was big, meaty, masculine and just sounded frickin great coming over the radio.  Asia never deserved to be sl*gged like they were by both the fickle music media and the uppity prog elitists, if you just accepted it for what it was, good melodic progressive pop rock that was not meant to be the solution to the end of the world, but just some great listening music. Unfortunately that Asia album spawned about 2 dozen imitator bands that tried to copy their sound who were far less talented, which is another reason Asia got skewered. I have been one of the few prog diehards that has championed their talents from the beginning (the first 2 albums at least), and I saw them live in 83 and I saw them live last year, and they sounded better than ever. If you have a chance to see them live, do so, because Wetton has had health problems and won't be around forever I am afraid.


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 01 2008 at 13:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2008 at 13:37
I'm going to Asia this month, with some of my prog friends who are not into Asia at all, but they like the four gentlemen who play in the band.
 
I didn't hear Phoenix, but I love their debut album! Wetton and Downes especially are in peak form. I listened to it many, many times, and enjoyed it very much also.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2008 at 16:05

Phoenix is easylistening prog which is nice to play in the background when you're having friends over for dinner. It's far from as demanding as serious prog, but serves a purpose in some situations. It's music for enjoying in the background and not when you need to put on your headphones and enjoy the music with all senses.

The thing I enjoy most about Phoenix is listening to Carl Palmer - it has been awhile since I heard him in a rock setting and he really delivers! These guys are promoting prog like noone elese, and I appreciate they're doing that. Moreover, Wetton strikes me as one of the most important figures in prog rock - he has been here, there & everywhere in prog and has pushed the boundaries of prog both upwards and downwards!). And don't forget Palmer has had his health issues too, like Weton.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2008 at 16:39
Agree with all the above posts;
This was 1982 and times were different .I always thought of the first album of ASIA as a good album full of freshness, energy and STRONG songwriting; Yes this is catchy, well played. No, there are no 12 mns sax soloing or Kraut lyrics......this is not difficult music to get into, but to be good has nothing to do with being difficult.
There is a time for every kind of music on my system. So sometimes i want play AMON DUUL2 or KC,
sometimes this is a good time to play the first ASIA. Nothing wrong with SOLE SURVIVOR or TIME WILL TELL.
........and J. WETTON never sang any better than on this album.
 
So give them a break!Big%20smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2008 at 17:09
Originally posted by febus febus wrote:

Agree with all the above posts;
This was 1982 and times were different .I always thought of the first album of ASIA as a good album full of freshness, energy and STRONG songwriting; Yes this is catchy, well played. No, there are no 12 mns sax soloing or Kraut lyrics......this is not difficult music to get into, but to be good has nothing to do with being difficult.
There is a time for every kind of music on my system. So sometimes i want play AMON DUUL2 or KC,
sometimes this is a good time to play the first ASIA. Nothing wrong with SOLE SURVIVOR or TIME WILL TELL.
........and J. WETTON never sang any better than on this album.
 
So give them a break!Big%20smile
 
 
I agree. I always thought Sole Survivor was not only a good pop/rock song, but a good PROG song that was actually singable. There are some great guitar riffs in there by Howe, and just enough of a little solo action to make it more interesting than the typical pop song you would hear on the radio. Same with Time and Time Again and Wildest Dreams. There are some prog moments in there. And what Asia never seems to get credit for is how many casual music fans who listened to them or bought that album in the early 80s, knowing nothing about where Wetton and Howe and Palmer etc came from, went further and explored backwards, maybe even becoming prog fans in the process........John Wetton played in UK with Bruford and Jobson and Holdsworth??? Cool.....Wetton played with King Crimson?? Roxy Music??? WOW. etc.
 
And anyone who had been into UK like I was big time in the late 70s were really not all that surprised that Asia was the next logical step......listen to Nothing to Lose from UK's second album, and tell me that couldn't have been a huge hit for Asia. But because that tune is on a UK album, its OK prog, but that same tune on an Asia album would have the elitists sl*gging it...........
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2008 at 21:37

Looks like I may need to pick up a copy of Phoenix.  As mentioned, I was disappointed in that first album when it came out.  I was an old prog fan and had expected so much better from these guys, and at the time I was not real tolerant of bands I perceived to be selling out.  Funny... distanced from its era by 25 years, Asia now sounds pretty damn good.  I'm also a lot more tolerant Wink than I used to be.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2008 at 19:44
Sadly my fourth listening of the album PHOENIXUnhappy has been a downer..... too many predictable simple tracks like ALIBIS where you guess the whole song structure after just 10 seconds.
Some good parts, some others really basic.
Sounds more like a JOHN WETTON solo album than the first ASIA.
 
I do like WETTON a lot, his voice, his bass playing, some of his songs, but i think he plays to safe lately in his comfort zone.He needs to go back listening to THE GREAT DECEIVER, even UKThumbs%20Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:13
Asia proved that punk needed to happen.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:27
When the first album was released, I had some hope, but sadly I lost it, not because IMO ASIA is not Prog, but because is not Prog, is not Pop, is a hybrid.
 
Fo Gods sake, Howe, Wetton, Downes and Pälmer are able to make something solid and convincing, if Boston had done this kind of music, I would had no problem at all, because that's exactly what I would expect from them, but this guys were able to do something different, stronger, with personality.
 
Then the debacle started, if you have constant changes of personel (common problem in supergroups), you can't expect a constant sound in evolution.
 
Reminds me of GTR, the idea of Hackett and Howe together was a dream come true that turned into a nightmare.
 
Sorry, not muy cup of tea, I agree there's a lot of musicianship in the names, but sadly they don't show it IMO.
 
Originally posted by The Wizard The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.
 
Sorry to disahgree Wizard, but Punk had already happened several years before, as a fact  original Punk moivement was almost something of the past when ASIA released their debut, they were already in the peak of New Wave as a diluted form of Punk.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 03 2008 at 23:31
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2008 at 11:22
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Fo Gods sake, Howe, Wetton, Downes and Pälmer are able to make something solid and convincing, if Boston had done this kind of music, I would had no problem at all, because that's exactly what I would expect from them, but this guys were able to do something different, stronger, with personality.
 
 
Yep, that's the deal.  I saw that lineup and had great expectations, which were sadly not fulfilled.  However taken for what it is, it's not that bad, or at least that's how I view it 25 years later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2008 at 20:11
It was the heat of the vomit. Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:20
Originally posted by The Wizard The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.
 
 
 
punk was going on around 1973 or so in New York. Asia didn't record an album until 1982. Its kind of like saying we should have nuked Japan in 1776.ConfusedConfused Nice try though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

When the first album was released, I had some hope, but sadly I lost it, not because IMO ASIA is not Prog, but because is not Prog, is not Pop, is a hybrid.
 
Fo Gods sake, Howe, Wetton, Downes and Pälmer are able to make something solid and convincing, if Boston had done this kind of music, I would had no problem at all, because that's exactly what I would expect from them, but this guys were able to do something different, stronger, with personality.
 
 
I don't know how there could have been such big prog expectations. If you had been listening to UK in the late 70s, especially the second album (listen to Nothing to Lose), and were familiar with the Drama album released by Yes in 1980, and were also familiar with the Buggles, and were familiar with Wetton's solo album at that time,  and on top of all that, realized this "supergroup" was not some artificial corporate creation (as is commonly wrongly assumed) but simply the result of a writing partnership by Wetton and Downes, who wanted to in fact write good melodic prog/pop songs, than Asia was not only a very reasonable result, but a very logical result under the circumstances. Anyone who would have been expecting 20 minute Yes like epics with solos galore had to be out of their gourd. That style of music was absolutely gored by the music press who were championing prog and new wave, and completely out of favor with the public. Prog was criticized for not being able to deliver well played melodic tunes that were simple and not full of goofy fantasy stuff.
 
Plus, the whole Asia thing was not some long standing build up of expectations. Not many people even knew this was coming when it came out in 1982. I was very in tune with music at that age, and never heard anything before the album release. Wetton and Howe both have said in interviews that they never expected this to take off commercially like it did. They were completely taken by surprise by the success of the album, and quickly put together a tour before they even had enough material to tour on.
 
So all in all, anyone who was expecting some epic prog masterpiece, in the context of the reality of the times, was really not understanding the music scene at the time.


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 04 2008 at 23:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:45
Originally posted by The Wizard The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.
 
That's a nice thought there. Punk needed to happen, so Asia could come into excistence. So because of Punk new (older) bands knew they had to strive for a better link with the music fans, skimming down the pretence and just create good well thought out music. And Asia did that.
 
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:49
Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

Originally posted by The Wizard The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.
 
That's a nice thought there. Punk needed to happen, so Asia could come into excistence. So because of Punk new (older) bands knew they had to strive for a better link with the music fans, skimming down the pretence and just create good well thought out music. And Asia did that.
 
 
 
I don't think that's how he meant itWink, but that's another way of looking at it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2008 at 17:28
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

 
I don't know how there could have been such big prog expectations. If you had been listening to UK in the late 70s, especially the second album (listen to Nothing to Lose), and were familiar with the Drama album released by Yes in 1980, and were also familiar with the Buggles, and were familiar with Wetton's solo album at that time,
 
 
Yes, I had been listening Drama, which I consider the best Yes album since Relayer, with great tracks as Machine Messiah, UK was an outstanding band with 100% Prog tracks like Danger Money, Rendesvouz 6:02, Cesar's Palace Blues. Alaska, etc.
 
It's so clear that UK is in a real Prog sub-genre as Symphonic, while ASIA is in Prog Related which means NOT PROG.
 
The Buggles, made a totally different style of music when alone than when they joined Yes
 
So as a fact listening the names Wetton, Downlnes, but specially Palmer and Howe, I expcted something more solid, probably not epic, but at least experimental and explorative, more challenging than what ASIA is in my opinion.
 
 
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

 and on top of all that, realized this "supergroup" was not some artificial corporate creation (as is commonly wrongly assumed) but simply the result of a writing partnership by Wetton and Downes, who wanted to in fact write good melodic prog/pop songs, than Asia was not only a very reasonable result, but a very logical result under the circumstances.
 
 
Corporate or not, it was a Supergroup, but I don't believe that ASIA is a great achievement for the importance of the musicians involved in the project, I am sure theycould do better.
 
 
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Anyone who would have been expecting 20 minute Yes like epics with solos galore had to be out of their gourd. That style of music was absolutely gored by the music press who were championing prog and new wave, and completely out of favor with the public. Prog was criticized for not being able to deliver well played melodic tunes that were simple and not full of goofy fantasy stuff.
 
 
I was not expecting 20 minutes solos, that's not all what Prog is a about, I was expecting something elaborate, with interesting arrangements, not plain and simple AOR (Which is what ASIA is in my opinion).
 
 
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Plus, the whole Asia thing was not some long standing build up of expectations. Not many people even knew this was coming when it came out in 1982. .I was very in tune with music at that age, and never heard anything before the album release. Wetton and Howe both have said in interviews that they never expected this to take off commercially like it did. They were completely taken by surprise by the success of the album, and quickly put together a tour before they even had enough material to tour on.
 
 
Maybe you don't live in South America. LOL
 
In those days without Internet, cable or MTV (in Perú), we heard about the album 3 or 4 four months before it was released in our country, we had no samples, we only heard names like  Wetton, Downes, Howe and Palmer, which made us expect a great album
 
At last it reached Perú and was released with great success, except among the Prog Community, then came the videos, etc and the rest is history.
 
 
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

So all in all, anyone who was expecting some epic prog masterpiece, in the context of the reality of the times, was really not understanding the music scene at the time.
 
As I told you, nobody was expecting epics necesarilly, only some solid music, like
  1. Cured, Highly Strung and the pompous Bay of Kings by Steve Hackett, released in that périor of time with some months of difference.
  2. Or maybe like Script for a Jester's Tear (with a fantastic epic) by Marillion,  released less than a year after ASIA and more or less coetaneous with ALPHA.
  3. Or even like the pristine Symphonic album "Despois Do Fim" released by Bacamarte some months later.
  4. Kenso II by Kenso.in the vein of Camel
  5. Counterpoint  by Solaris, released in 1981 as well as Penta

So as you see I understand the music scenario of those years, but I still wanted to listen Prog like Hackett or Fish's Marillion, not an album like ASIA which I believe was in the borderline of AOR and Mainstream.

It was not as you say that you could only expect bands as ASIA, there was a lot of real Prog in GB and around the world, it was only a question of searching.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 05 2008 at 17:32
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2008 at 17:45
I think we should put some youth in asia.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2008 at 18:03
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

 
I don't know how there could have been such big prog expectations. If you had been listening to UK in the late 70s, especially the second album (listen to Nothing to Lose), and were familiar with the Drama album released by Yes in 1980, and were also familiar with the Buggles, and were familiar with Wetton's solo album at that time,
 
 
Yes, I had been listening Drama, which I consider the best Yes album since Relayer, with great tracks as Machine Messiah, UK was an outstanding band with 100% Prog tracks like Danger Money, Rendesvouz 6:02, Cesar's Palace Blues. Alaska, etc.
 
It's so clear that UK is in a real Prog sub-genre as Symphonic, while ASIA is in Prog Related which means NOT PROG.
 
The Buggles, made a totally different style of music when alone than when they joined Yes
 
So as a fact listening the names Wetton, Downlnes, but specially Palmer and Howe, I expcted something more solid, probably not epic, but at least experimental and explorative, more challenging than what ASIA is in my opinion.
 
 
I like Drama a lot, but its not nearly in the same class as GFTO of course. However, a track like GFTO surely was a preview of what Howe would be doing on Drama. In your face, almost punkish guitar playing.
 
And again, the song Nothing to Lose by UK, a Wetton composition, is almost IDENTICAL to the songs on the first Asia album, and would have fit very well on that Asia album. I don't care what category you and other people on PA label those groups----I trust my ears.
 
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

 and on top of all that, realized this "supergroup" was not some artificial corporate creation (as is commonly wrongly assumed) but simply the result of a writing partnership by Wetton and Downes, who wanted to in fact write good melodic prog/pop songs, than Asia was not only a very reasonable result, but a very logical result under the circumstances.
 
 
Corporate or not, it was a Supergroup, but I don't believe that ASIA is a great achievement for the importance of the musicians involved in the project, I am sure theycould do better.
 
Do better how? That first album is full of great melodic power prog/pop songs very well played. There is not a bad tune on the album. So it does not matter what you label it, it was good. It doesn't matter what you thought they could do, they did what they thought was best at the time.
 
 
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Anyone who would have been expecting 20 minute Yes like epics with solos galore had to be out of their gourd. That style of music was absolutely gored by the music press who were championing prog and new wave, and completely out of favor with the public. Prog was criticized for not being able to deliver well played melodic tunes that were simple and not full of goofy fantasy stuff.
 
 
I was not expecting 20 minutes solos, that's not all what Prog is a about, I was expecting something elaborate, with interesting arrangements, not plain and simple AOR (Which is what ASIA is in my opinion).
 
like I said, there was your mistake. If you had followed the logical progression of GFTO, UK, Wetton solo, Asia was the logical result in the context of the times. Elaborate was OUT in 1982-3.
 
 
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Plus, the whole Asia thing was not some long standing build up of expectations. Not many people even knew this was coming when it came out in 1982. .I was very in tune with music at that age, and never heard anything before the album release. Wetton and Howe both have said in interviews that they never expected this to take off commercially like it did. They were completely taken by surprise by the success of the album, and quickly put together a tour before they even had enough material to tour on.
 
 
Maybe you don't live in South America. LOL
 
In those days without Internet, cable or MTV (in Perú), we heard about the album 3 or 4 four months before it was released in our country, we had no samples, we only heard names like  Wetton, Downes, Howe and Palmer, which made us expect a great album
 
At last it reached Perú and was released with great success, except among the Prog Community, then came the videos, etc and the rest is history.
 
 [QUOTE=Dr. Prog]So all in all, anyone who was expecting some epic prog masterpiece, in the context of the reality of the times, was really not understanding the music scene at the time.
 
As I told you, nobody was expecting epics necesarilly, only some solid music, like
  1. Cured, Highly Strung and the pompous Bay of Kings by Steve Hackett, released in that périor of time with some months of difference.
  2. Or maybe like Script for a Jester's Tear (with a fantastic epic) by Marillion,  released less than a year after ASIA and more or less coetaneous with ALPHA.
  3. Or even like the pristine Symphonic album "Despois Do Fim" released by Bacamarte some months later.
  4. Kenso II by Kenso.in the vein of Camel
  5. Counterpoint  by Solaris, released in 1981 as well as Penta

So as you see I understand the music scenario of those years, but I still wanted to listen Prog like Hackett or Fish's Marillion, not an album like ASIA which I believe was in the borderline of AOR and Mainstream.

It was not as you say that you could only expect bands as ASIA, there was a lot of real Prog in GB and around the world, it was only a question of searching.
 
 
As far as I can tell, you get too hung up on labeling and black and white comparisons, instead of simply enjoying what is good well played music, regardless of the label. That's the crucial difference between me and you.
 
 
Dr. Prog = red


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 05 2008 at 18:05
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