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Topic ClosedAmerican Idol--the dumbing down of music
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:11
 
Ivan, Was any of these good arguments on the original post which was the one I replied and to which reply to reacted ? No. In that post the thread creator basically accused AI of killing PROG and the music business... he didn't say anything about the show's other aspects... That's what I replied.
 
Again, AI is a consequence. If you teach children to love money above anything else, then waht do you expect...
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Points: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:17
Originally posted by johnobvious johnobvious wrote:

A  Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year?  Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner.  They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it?  No.

 
 
I absolutely disagree with that statement. Don't frickin lump Genesis in with American Idol for God's sakes. Genesis was very clear about their intentions on touring last year. They didn't need the money. Phil specifically said he could take it or leave it as far as touring. They did the tour because they had entered into discussions about a 5 man reunion, and when Gabriel balked or wouldn't commit, the 3 man group decided they still wanted to play together, and they realized they owed it to long time fans who never really got a farewell or reunion tour. Did they make money, sure, but that isn't the reason they did it. The bottome line was they were friends and they just wanted to play together. If it was all about money, why did they limit it to 20 shows in Europe and 20 in the US? They could have played 100 shows all over the world----Phil didn't want to.
 
And in fact, it was not simply a greatest hits tour or a tour that catered just to the 80s "pop" era----they played a lot of prog music, alot of instrumentals and didn't play a bunch of "pop" era tunes, like Misunderstanding, Abacab, Paperlate, In Too Deep etc.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:18
'scuse me, but when I saw this thread's title I couldn't stop laughing....
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:20
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

'scuse me, but when I saw this thread's title I couldn't stop laughing....
 
Why?
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Points: 1361 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:01
Originally posted by Squonkman Squonkman wrote:

Originally posted by johnobvious johnobvious wrote:

A  Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year?  Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner.  They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it?  No.

 
 
I absolutely disagree with that statement. Don't frickin lump Genesis in with American Idol for God's sakes. Genesis was very clear about their intentions on touring last year. They didn't need the money. Phil specifically said he could take it or leave it as far as touring. They did the tour because they had entered into discussions about a 5 man reunion, and when Gabriel balked or wouldn't commit, the 3 man group decided they still wanted to play together, and they realized they owed it to long time fans who never really got a farewell or reunion tour. Did they make money, sure, but that isn't the reason they did it. The bottome line was they were friends and they just wanted to play together. If it was all about money, why did they limit it to 20 shows in Europe and 20 in the US? They could have played 100 shows all over the world----Phil didn't want to.
 
And in fact, it was not simply a greatest hits tour or a tour that catered just to the 80s "pop" era----they played a lot of prog music, alot of instrumentals and didn't play a bunch of "pop" era tunes, like Misunderstanding, Abacab, Paperlate, In Too Deep etc.


I'm not lumping them in.   I'm making a statement about what makes the world go around.  Of course Genesis aren't going to say it was for the money, blah, blah ,blah.  If they weren't going to be handsomely rewarded, they would not have done it, end of story.  And I have no beef with them going out. More power to 'em.

I feel your pain, man.  I wish prog was given more chance to get out to the masses.  And we all want people to like what we think is best of whatever category is on offer because it validates our beliefs.  But when it comes down to that or the almighty dollar, that dollar will win most of the time.  Is it right?  That is a discussion for the ages.
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Points: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:12
Originally posted by johnobvious johnobvious wrote:

Originally posted by Squonkman Squonkman wrote:

Originally posted by johnobvious johnobvious wrote:

A  Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year?  Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner.  They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it?  No.

 
 
I absolutely disagree with that statement. Don't frickin lump Genesis in with American Idol for God's sakes. Genesis was very clear about their intentions on touring last year. They didn't need the money. Phil specifically said he could take it or leave it as far as touring. They did the tour because they had entered into discussions about a 5 man reunion, and when Gabriel balked or wouldn't commit, the 3 man group decided they still wanted to play together, and they realized they owed it to long time fans who never really got a farewell or reunion tour. Did they make money, sure, but that isn't the reason they did it. The bottome line was they were friends and they just wanted to play together. If it was all about money, why did they limit it to 20 shows in Europe and 20 in the US? They could have played 100 shows all over the world----Phil didn't want to.
 
And in fact, it was not simply a greatest hits tour or a tour that catered just to the 80s "pop" era----they played a lot of prog music, alot of instrumentals and didn't play a bunch of "pop" era tunes, like Misunderstanding, Abacab, Paperlate, In Too Deep etc.


I'm not lumping them in.   I'm making a statement about what makes the world go around.  Of course Genesis aren't going to say it was for the money, blah, blah ,blah.  If they weren't going to be handsomely rewarded, they would not have done it, end of story.  And I have no beef with them going out. More power to 'em.

I feel your pain, man.  I wish prog was given more chance to get out to the masses.  And we all want people to like what we think is best of whatever category is on offer because it validates our beliefs.  But when it comes down to that or the almighty dollar, that dollar will win most of the time.  Is it right?  That is a discussion for the ages.
 
 
Genesis did not tour JUST for the money. Your statement is patently false. They wanted to play together at least one last time and they genuinely like each other. They also realized that after the debacle that was the cancelled CAS tour here in the US in 98, they did owe the fans something. Contrast that with the Police, who all hate each other, which was even visible on stage, and who toured all over the place---they did do it for the money and the record company pushing it. Genesis did 40 shows. If it was all about the money, they could have done 120 shows. So you are wrong---don't just throw crap like that out there unless you have some specific evidence to back it up.
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Points: 1361 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:16
I am trying to stay on topic and do not want to get into it with you on Genesis.  You are obviously pretty passionate about it and that is fine.  I'm sure Banks and Rutherford already had huge bank accounts and didn't need the money, but I respect your take on it.  Can we still talk about AI and how it is ruining America?Hug

Edited by johnobvious - April 21 2008 at 17:17
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 20:41
As someone else has already pointed out, since at least the days of Elvis there has been some record company producer or exec working day and night to dumb down music. 
 
AI is not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last.  Yes, it's a hugely popular show, but have you taken a look at the Billboard Top 40 lately (do the even still have that? I'm out of touch.). 
 
I can guarantee you that routinely in every decade since the '50s much of popular music has been swill.  So let's not blame AI for the dumbing down of music; that's been going on since Day 1. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 21:37
Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

As someone else has already pointed out, since at least the days of Elvis there has been some record company producer or exec working day and night to dumb down music. 
 

You hit the nail in the head, but it's not an owners effort to destroy music, they are not so stupid (despite they seem so), it's the terrible system.

 

In the 70's, guys like Tony Stratton Smith (Charisma) or Richard Branson (Virgin Records) owned the companies and also managed them, this guys searched for good artists, because an owner knows he's going to be related to the company for years, so they searched for potentially good artists that will have a years relation with their companies. The reason was that if they didn't recovered their investment in a month, they would have years to do so, that’s why bands like Genesis, VDGG or even a 19 years kid called Mike Oldfield, who had a monstrous project playing all the instruments had a chance. That's also the reason why past artists lasted longer and why some are still active.

 

Today the owners hire young executives who are judged by their successful choices, if they find an artist who sells 10 million copies in 6 months and then vanish...WHO CARES?

 

The owner recovered his investment 9in a few months and gained some millions, the executive receives his salary and probably a promotion. The executive doesn't care for long lasting artists, because he may leave the company tomorrow, so he is encouraged to recruit fast selling artists, doesn't matter if they are one hit wonders, the owners want money and the executives only care for short relation with the artists, anyway they will probably be fired before they reach 35 years.

 
 AI is not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last.  Yes, it's a hugely popular show, but have you taken a look at the Billboard Top 40 lately (do the even still have that? I'm out of touch.). 
 

That’s a logical consequence of this system, improvised artists may have one hit but normally they don’t repeat, the finalists of American Idol have already paid the investment the network made on them, and the company will probably make a Best of American Idol 2008 album that will sell by millions.

 
What else can you expect from kids who can hardly read music, much less write something coherent? 

Even the telephone company is gaining money with the millions of calls being made.

 

Why should anybody of them care for the future of the kids or even for Rock?

 
I can guarantee you that routinely in every decade since the '50s much of popular music has been swill.  So let's not blame AI for the dumbing down of music; that's been going on since Day 1. 
 

There's a study that proves that for example Elvis was in the charts until the 80's, The Beatles and Rolling Stones still sell, Pink Floyd or even some Prog bands from 70's, and even Pop artists, still are popular, in the 80's the debacle started, few artists of that decade have survived the 90's, only a handful of 90 artists reached 2000's and only a couple of 2001 artists made it to 2005.

 

Each decade, the artists last less, that’s he business, fast selling artists (so they gain a lot of bucks immediately) and fast vanishing (to leave space for new disposable artists).

 

The system from which American Idol is only the peak of the iceberg is killing Rock.

 

Iván 
            
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2008 at 22:12

Yep, it's all about the quick payoff these days.  The record companies are reduced to suing their consumers.  Not a good sign of things to come.

Even Clive Davis, who totters out at some point during AI each year to tell us all how great the ex-AI contestants are doing on the charts, has totally lost it.  This was the guy who ran Columbia during the late-60's and of all people should know you need to invest in artists and give a chance for the seed to bear fruit.  Wasn't he the one who signed Janis Joplin and probably a dozen other Columbia artists back when?
 
In any case there has always been questionable tactics:
 
Who had a hit with Tutti Frutti back in the '50s?  Was it Little Richard or Pat Boone?  The correct answer is shameful.
 
What were the Archies, with Sugar Sugar, doing in the Top Ten during the '60s?
 
Why was Convoy a huge hit in the early-70's? 
 
I used to get pissed off that none of my favorite bands won a Grammy.  I quickly learned that the Grammys are irrelevant, and so is AI.  I could go on but it's depressing. 
 
To get back to the spirit of the original post:  AI is but a symptom, not a cause.  The listening public has for decades chosen crap over quality (and not just in music), so why scream at the universe, when it ain't listening?
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Points: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 01:50
We're not talking whether some piece of instant pop fluff happens to be a hit song. Yes that happens in every decade. We are talking about what the significance is of most popular show in the country, and its implications on pop culture, youth and societal music tastes. How many record companies are out there who will discover, sign, nurture and let develop a young King Crimson, a young Genesis, a young Yes etc. How many record companies, in this instant "are you a hit" 15 minutes of fame pop culture, would let a band noodle around making long complex progressive instrumental filled tracks, without a real chart hit, to the point of letting them do 4 songs on a double album, and still produce their record?
 
Thank God for the indie movement, small labels and the exposure of the internet, but the dumbing down is not just in pop music but country as well (see earlier posts). I am not saying Am Idol "caused" all this, just that its a huge contributor to the dumbing down of society on a massive commercial scale, which produces a society where a show like TMZ, where people sit around "reporting" on whether a celebrity walked out of a restuarant or not, thrives. Who do you think watches that stuff, in addition to the plethora of vacuous scandal and "reality" shows? To dismiss it all as just some passing fancy that will all get better, instead of looking at the inexorable march to further mediocrity and devaluation of what is truly appreciated and treasured as good music etc, is foolish and simply constitutes sticking your head in the sand.....
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 03:44
lighten up, there's art and there's business and occasionally the two meet.. I mean, is it really surprising that complex and experimental music doesn't appeal to large numbers?   ..BTW, you can be a tasteful, cultured person and absolutely love a show like American Idol.. it doesn't define you
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Points: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:38
.....and you can be a blithering idiot and love a show like American Idol too.
 
 
"is it really surprising that complex and experimental music does not appeal to large numbers of people?"
 
A---it did in the 70s.


Edited by Squonkman - April 22 2008 at 04:46
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:43
and Jethro Tull, no?
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:48
Originally posted by Squonkman Squonkman wrote:

--it did in the 70s.


yes it did briefly, and I'm still surprised
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Points: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:59
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Squonkman Squonkman wrote:

--it did in the 70s.


yes it did briefly, and I'm still surprised


 
which brings it back round to my original point.
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Points: 2696 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 05:09
Is A.Idol dumbing down music for the kids??? ............ Hell no! 
 
different taste in music is not necessarily 'dumb' that is a seriously odd notion to have, yes they might play "festival style arrangements"  but thats for a hundred practical and technical reasons.......... much in the same way that if they announced this weeks special guests are X (insert the name of your fav prog artiste here)  X would (probably) not indulge in 20 mins of prog-jam-widdly-nonsense (even if that same 20 mins would blow the minds of his regular audience)  This isn't "dumbing down" it's sensible.
 
I watch AI (I don't stay in for it, but you know if it's the right day of the week and I've had a long day I'll watch it ) and I find myself routing for these kids, I really do, I'm the same with X-Factor here in the UK, yes there is some awful songs, and awful arrangements at times, but it's great fun, and to accuse another form of valued musical entertainment as being "dumb" really is frightening!
 
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Points: 2696 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 05:14
Originally posted by Squonkman <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is it really surprising that complex and experimental music does not appeal to large numbers of people?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A---it did in the 70s.</DIV>[/QUOTE Squonkman
 
is it really surprising that complex and experimental music does not appeal to large numbers of people?
 
A---it did in the 70s.
[/QUOTE wrote:

 
The 1970's were a time of quite specific cultural, social and political  events......... (not to mention the drugsLOL)  ....... but I am willing to bet a chelsea bun that more folk were buying listening to Donny & Marie, Partridge family et al than were digging the new "prog" sound.......... it's just that we look back with rose tints on  our oakleys............
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 05:17
Originally posted by prog-chick prog-chick wrote:

Is A.Idol dumbing down music for the kids??? ............ Hell no! 
 
different taste in music is not necessarily 'dumb' that is a seriously odd notion to have, yes they might play "festival style arrangements"  but thats for a hundred practical and technical reasons.......... much in the same way that if they announced this weeks special guests are X (insert the name of your fav prog artiste here)  X would (probably) not indulge in 20 mins of prog-jam-widdly-nonsense (even if that same 20 mins would blow the minds of his regular audience)  This isn't "dumbing down" it's sensible.
 
I watch AI (I don't stay in for it, but you know if it's the right day of the week and I've had a long day I'll watch it ) and I find myself routing for these kids, I really do, I'm the same with X-Factor here in the UK, yes there is some awful songs, and awful arrangements at times, but it's great fun, and to accuse another form of valued musical entertainment as being "dumb" really is frightening!
 
Rx


 precisely..  as I said, it doesn't define someone, just as liking classical or jazz doesn't make you a snob
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Points: 1119 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2008 at 06:23
For this, I'm going to enter the Finnish Idols next summer and sing "In the Land of Grey and Pink"
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