General Music Discussions - American Idol--the dumbing down of music

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American Idol--the dumbing down of music

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Topic: American Idol--the dumbing down of music

Posted By: Squonkman
Subject: American Idol--the dumbing down of music
Date Posted: April 20 2008 at 22:13

Is it any wonder that progressive rock is now an "underground" movement when you have the travesty of American Idol slowly destroying the young fertile music tastes and minds of the youth culture? I am so embarrassed that the show exists and has thrived here in the US. From the destruction of classic rock tunes (now even the Beatles catalog is being massacred) to the apparant insistence by the producers that everyone sing 18 notes per word ala Mariah Carey, I can't think of anything in modern society that is quite as insipid and vacuous as that show. What kind of long term damage is that show doing on the youth of America (and the world)?

We better cherish our progressive rock and work hard to fight against the rampant vacuousness that stuff like American Idol engenders. Remember, disco almost killed off prog rock in the late 70s (don't buy that false 'punk killed prog rock' BS foisted on us by the editors of Rolling Stone---it was disco---I was there); it can happen again. Support your prog festivals and go to concerts and educate the young'uns about the glories of prog so its not lost amidst the sea of mediocrity that American Idol represents.

Replies:

Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: April 20 2008 at 22:21

It is vastly annoying, but I'm not too worried about our youth's taste in music. Taking statistics from this site, the largest age demographic is 15-18 (with over 600 people according to that age poll thingy). If the Internet didn't exist, I'd be a little more worried, but kids these days have access to just about everything.

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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian

Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 20 2008 at 22:25

Couldn't agree more, Squonk. Television is a vast wasteland of garbage for the most part. Hmmm....I remember a line somewhere about "13 channels of sh*t on the TV to choose from, choose from, choose from.."

Cept today there are hundreds of channels of ....garbage. Yes, there are some worthwhile educational things and films that break through the squall of nonsense, but for the most part you have the American public gobbling up garbage like Idol, reality shows, and sitcoms. Tragic.

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 20 2008 at 22:29

Avantgardehead wrote:

It is vastly annoying, but I'm not too worried about our youth's taste in music. Taking statistics from this site, the largest age demographic is 15-18 (with over 600 people according to that age poll thingy). If the Internet didn't exist, I'd be a little more worried, but kids these days have access to just about everything.

that is encouraging, but of course 600, who are not even all from the US, is a drop in the bucket compared to the marketing hype machine that shapes popular music tastes. Throw in the all consuming 'in your faceness' of hip hop, and its an uphill struggle---I know, I deal with it every day.

Posted By: Leningrad
Date Posted: April 20 2008 at 22:40

I'm 15. And I don't watch TV at all.

I'm also a 0.00000000001%.

Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: April 20 2008 at 23:03

Basically the only only time I ever turn on the TV, it's to watch sports.

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Posted By: Mikerinos
Date Posted: April 20 2008 at 23:16

Finnforest wrote:

Couldn't agree more, Squonk. Television is a vast wasteland of garbage for the most part. Hmmm....I remember a line somewhere about "13 channels of sh*t on the TV to choose from, choose from, choose from.."

Cept today there are hundreds of channels of ....garbage. Yes, there are some worthwhile educational things and films that break through the squall of nonsense, but for the most part you have the American public gobbling up garbage like Idol, reality shows, and sitcoms. Tragic.

Even channels like CNN and History (how UFO Hunting is related to History is beyond me) are becoming worse over time. G4 is horrible now, I stopped watching it a few years ago and recently tuned in it just to see how it's changed. A lot of dumb shows like Cops, people who stalk dating couples, reality TV with ninjas (okay, I'll admit if you're 13 that might be interesting), sexual stuff (like people watching that channel are any good with women already), etc. Travel, Food, National Geographic, and CSPAN are okay depending on what is shown, but usually nothing I really care about.

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 01:00

Bluesaga wrote:

Even channels like CNN and History (how UFO Hunting is related to History is beyond me) are becoming worse over time. G4 is horrible now, I stopped watching it a few years ago and recently tuned in it just to see how it's changed. A lot of dumb shows like Cops, people who stalk dating couples, reality TV with ninjas (okay, I'll admit if you're 13 that might be interesting), sexual stuff (like people watching that channel are any good with women already), etc. Travel, Food, National Geographic, and CSPAN are okay depending on what is shown, but usually nothing I really care about.

This is true. History channel airs lots of programs on... trucks?? Biography channels airs bios for... Farrah Fawcett? G4 used to have game-review shows...now everything is stupid run contests with lots of stupidity... where are scripted shows? Seinfeld wouldn't have a chance these days , but reality shows where you don't need much more creativity than what you need to device another way to expose people's greed and desperation for their fix of Warhol's 15 minutes are the rule...... BUT....

I wouldn't blame American Idol. First, let's get it straight. Don't blame the US for this, as that's a british creation...

Squonkman wrote:

Is it any wonder that progressive rock is now an "underground" movement when you have the travesty of American Idol slowly destroying the young fertile music tastes and minds of the youth culture? If anything, American Idol is a consequence, not the reason. Prog rock stopped being on the spotlight like... well, more than 20 years ago, with hardly any American Idols on air.... Do you think by the way that a true "intellectual society" would have prog as its biggest genre? I have my doubts. The "travesty" of American Idol doesn't destroy music tastes... i haven't seen anything about music creation there but music REPRODUCTION, it's a singing competition. It would've worked 20, 30 years ago, just probably with different music being played... I am so embarrassed that the show exists and has thrived here in the US. I would be more embarrased from countless other things, like re-electing a certain dummy, or seeing the econopmy go down the drain, or even, yes, the general stupidization of TV with the dissapearance of history and news than just for a singing competition. From the destruction of classic rock tunes (now even the Beatles catalog is being massacred) to the apparant insistence by the producers that everyone sing 18 notes per word ala Mariah Carey, I can't think of anything in modern society that is quite as insipid and vacuous as that show. I don't see rock tunes being destroyed. They are just... covered. As they are in many many places and ocasions. here is for the fame and money, ok, fine. Classical music has been used in advertising for hamburgers long ago and so what... music doesn't lose its value. in the end, after one of the contestants sings a beatles song, maybe some youth that didn't know them in the first place will go and buy the Beatles cd... i don't see why this hurts... other than a weird paranoia....Also, none demands 18 notes per word.... That's the style many choose, yes, but no.... If I know what I'm taking about is because I live with somenone that watches the show so I have had to watch it and I know what I'm talking about. there's talent from time to time.,.,. Of course many (if not all) contestants are there for a quick shot at fame... but there are talented people... What kind of long term damage is that show doing on the youth of America (and the world)? this is just laughable. First try to change the way America thinks (DOLLAR FIRST) and then maybe this big Satan of yours will dissapear...

My kids (thanks to my non prog loving wife) are suckered into that garbage and now recently American Idol goes PROG! Yep, someone did a Kansas tune on American Idol (Carry on Wayward Son). What's next, Paula Abdul singing In the Court of the Crimson King?I HOPE SO. BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE THAT WOULD NEVER HEARD KANSAS WOULD HAVE A CHANCE THAT YOU< IN YOUR OWN EXCLUSIVE PROG BUBBLE WANT ONLY FOR YOU. Fine... king Crimson on American Idol? Ask fripp if he would like the publicity... you would be amazed at the answer.... and if he says no, well, let's do an anonymous poll in many prog artists, and let's see what they prefer....

We better cherish our progressive rock and work hard to fight against the rampant vacuousness that stuff like American Idol engenders.Fight with whom? THIS IS KILLING AMERICA, the "LET"S FIGHT" mentality.... Let's respect the right of people to like sh*t. Remember, disco almost killed off prog rock in the late 70s (don't buy that false 'punk killed prog rock' BS foisted on us by the editors of Rolling Stone---it was disco---I was there)You saw the murder and yet you're here... seems prog never died then... it just faded from the spotlight... but it's here, more alive than ever... or maybe we are all ghosts....; it can happen again. Support your prog festivals and go to concerts and educate the young'uns about the glories of prog so its not lost amidst the sea of mediocrity that American Idol represents. This sounds like a call for indoctrination. Well, I, for one, would NEVER do that. I'd give my children the CHANCE that many don't have to know not-so-famous artists like our prog musicians....but I'd let them decide... Yes! Let's educate our young ones! I agree! But let's start first in other areas like civility, respect to others, solidarity, the value of people vs the value of money, and million other things, and then I would start teaching them about the legends of prog...

Wait! Maybe if we teach them to EXPLORE, they will discover it by themselves.

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Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 01:21

The T wrote:

I wouldn't blame American Idol. First, let's get it straight. Don't blame the US for this, as that's a british creation...

Wait! Maybe if we teach them to EXPLORE, they will discover it by themselves.

I was actually going to attempt to respond to this diatribe/critique but by the end I was laughing too hard. Especially the "call for indoctrination" part. What are you, part of the House Committee on Un-American Activities?

Sheesh, what a tool.

Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 01:26

Well Kelly Klarkson is a product of American Idol program...now she is doing efforts for be different...with a new style....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3ZcfbOXnoU

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Hi progmaniacs of all the world

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 01:43

Oh please T, American Idol is a Karaoke contest, where the most popular person wins, not the best.

What can we expect of a program where the producer and owner has such a terrible taste as was posted the other day:

Bobby Darin - Mack the Knife

Herb Alpert - This Guy's In Love With You

Charles Aznavour - She

Righteous Brothers - Unchained Melody

Wayne Newton - Danke Schoen

Daniel Bedingfield - If You're Not The one

Sammy Davis, Jr. - Mr. Bojangles

Frank Sinatra - Summer Wind

Please...Bobby Darin and Wayne Newton????

Then you got Paula Abdul for whom everybody is fantastic and the former Journey and Jean Luc Ponty basist Randy "The Emperor" Jackson who left good music to backup Britney and N'Sync, it's like the bad cop - good cop act, Paula is teh god cop, Randy Jackson is the mediator and Simon Cowell is the bad cop...Please, this is an act.

The show is a disaster, they destroy some excellent tracks with festival arrangements.

Iván

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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 10:49

This is an interesting topic and I'm glad to see that the thread has stayed relatively civil and intelligent. I'm sure I'll incur the wrath of many, but I watch Idol because I know how hard it is to sing well (I never could). I get a perverse kick out of seeing the contestants try to sing like Freddie Mercury and other vocal giants and sometimes am surprised that someone with actual talent gets through the riff raff of idiots. As for the dumbing down of musical tastes, consider that in the heyday of prog (1973, for example) the big sellers were "Tie a Yellow Ribbon," "Ballroom Blitz" and "Crocodile Rock" so folks are going to seek out what they desire to hear no matter how wide the spectrum of creativity may be at any given time. I don't know of an era when TV was anything more than a hodgepodge of manure where occasionally something of genuine quality appeared so the fact that the #1 show is one that features young people singing a wide array of tunes past and present doesn't make me think the apocalypse is coming this week. It's a lot more honest than political debates or "professional" wrasslin', that's for sure!

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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 12:58

Squonkman wrote:

The T wrote:

I wouldn't blame American Idol. First, let's get it straight. Don't blame the US for this, as that's a british creation...

Wait! Maybe if we teach them to EXPLORE, they will discover it by themselves.

Sheesh, what a tool.

Oh Squonk, I love how you can't never reply anything... myabe my post was touching other subjects... but your reply.... Well... Go on and cry about this show being on the air....

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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:09

This is as things should be. ;P If you aren't actively looking for good music/food/whatever then you're happy enough with the bad, making you everyone's dream target audience.

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FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:09

1. In case anyone hasn't figured out by now, while I stand by the general premise of my OP, I 'overstated' the point a bit with a little tongue in cheek to drive it home, and to induce discussion. I am fighting a losing battle against that show in my own household, which is one reason for the post. No, I don't think we are on the brink of apocalypse---yet. But I have seen the harmful effects firsthand, especially when my credit card says American Idol Live! In Concert........

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:10

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Oh please T, American Idol is a Karaoke contest, where the most popular person wins, not the best.

You are right about the popularity end.. but some people there have better voices than Karaoke... at least in America's version... and I guess all around the world...

What can we expect of a program where the producer and owner has such a terrible taste as was posted the other day:

Bobby Darin - Mack the Knife

Herb Alpert - This Guy's In Love With You

Charles Aznavour - She

Righteous Brothers - Unchained Melody

Wayne Newton - Danke Schoen

Daniel Bedingfield - If You're Not The one

Sammy Davis, Jr. - Mr. Bojangles

Frank Sinatra - Summer Wind

Please...Bobby Darin and Wayne Newton???? Is his terrible taste. For you. Objectively, we can't prove it is SO bad. Of course I like prog 1982710 better than this.. I'm just commenting that it's not American Idol the problem.... it's just a consequence.

Then you got Paula Abdul for whom everybody is fantastic and the former Journey and Jean Luc Ponty basist Randy "The Emperor" Jackson who left good music to backup Britney and N'Sync, it's like the bad cop - good cop act, Everybody can notice this. It's just a perfect marketing and dramatic tool. It's a TV SHOW. Paula is teh god cop, Randy Jackson is the mediator and Simon Cowell is the bad cop...Please, this is an act. You haven't discovered anything. All I say is, what has that to do with the end of the music world?????????

The show is a disaster, they destroy some excellent tracks with festival arrangements. Yes, may times. Not always.

Please, stop mixing politics with music, if you want to rant against USA President, there are politic threads, people around the world think about the Dollar, Euro, Yen or Sucre before anything, that's the human nature, this is the GENERAL MUSIC section, this is not a place to talk about any Government. I have the right to say whatever I want as long as it's with respect. The thread creator said that the show is dumbing down America and that youth's minds are being affected because of this, I just say, NO. THERE ARE OTHER REASONS. Read my post. And read the original post which accuses the show of every problem in the music world today. And if you ever read my posts, you would know that I don't give a damn about money but about people, so that's actually what I'm saying, people's brains are being affected not because of this stupid show but because of million other things, one consequence from which is the existence of this BRITISH BORN show.... (which means the whole world is being dumbed down in music....at least where this program and all the regional versions air...).

And please, you bring politics Ivan. Sucre is a long dead currency. If you bring that name out is because of what?

Iván Teodoro

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:14

laplace wrote:

This is as things should be. ;P If you aren't actively looking for good music/food/whatever then you're happy enough with the bad, making you everyone's dream target audience.

This is ridiculous... Not your post but what that implies... So one can't say that this show is NOT the main problem in music today? Well.... I leave then... continue your super interesting bashing/resentment thread... what we resent is not the show being stupid, but the show being POPULAR. That's the world! Don't give me this prog-hero crap of "let's go to prog festivals to battle against american idol1" I say: Let's go to prog festivals because we have to keep prog alive and if 120918201 people love American Idol, so be it. LIVE WITH IT.

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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:18

The T wrote:

laplace wrote:

This is as things should be. ;P If you aren't actively looking for good music/food/whatever then you're happy enough with the bad, making you everyone's dream target audience.

You inferred something far different from what I stated, but that's expected from someone already in rant mode. =P

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FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:26

Squonkman wrote:

1. In case anyone hasn't figured out by now, while I stand by the general premise of my OP, I 'overstated' the point a bit with a little tongue in cheek to drive it home, and to induce discussion. I am fighting a losing battle against that show in my own household, which is one reason for the post. You're frustrated. That's Ok. As you say, your first post seemed like you accused a simple show of all the problems in music. No, I don't think we are on the brink of apocalypse---yet. But I have seen the harmful effects firsthand, especially when my credit card says American Idol Live! In Concert........

There are ways to stop that. Anyway, even without the show, there could be a "hannah Montana live concert" in your bill... so it's just ONE of the millkion posibilities of not-so-great music that you or your family can attend.

2. I am a big fan of good pop music when I was a kid and what little there is floating around now. But you can't tell me there is a huge cringe factor, and a kind of vacuousness, when you see some classic pop tunes being mangled like they are in the interests of slick corporate marketing. Yes, its a singing competition, but it gives the young people the impression that you can be a star with 15 minutes of fame on the tube---instant success, instead of doing it the old fashioned way, by working your way up the ranks, playing your way through dives and smelly clubs and evolving and developing your talent, like the Beatles, Elton John, Springsteen and heck, even Madonna did Yes. I said that when I mentioned the shot at Warhol's 15 minutes. But two things: one, it's legitimate. Maybe we don't agree, but it's legitimate. two: if people buy into it and like the records, then it's even more legitimate (Daughtry, I'm sure, will not last only 15 minutes). three: in this world today everything moves so fast, this kind of shot at fame and music glory is understandable. There are still artists that work their way up the ranks, but who says that there are millions talented singers out there who just can't work their way up the ranks because of several circumstances? Now, more than ever, we are in an era of instant corporately created bands (thank Disney for that) and the idea of instant stardom that we all know is an illusion and will be gone like fast food due to the shallow fickleness of the general public, who because of shows like American Idol, have no clue what good music sounds like. That is true but as I said, American Idol is just a consequence. Not the reason. If the world wasn't what it is, there would still be scripted shows and comedies.

I will be looked as a caveman here but I actually think that, especially in TV-oriented America (where TVS have always been part of the living room and family life), I prefer there's a show that still families watch together than everybody being in theori own little world... listening to the ipod, on tnhe internet, whatever... For one (two) stupid hours a week, some families get together to wwatch that show. In this new world where children have to have their portables dvds so they don't bother when mommy is on the cell phone in her car, well, I think that, even if it is for STUPID BULLsh*t MUSIC as some imply, it's not actually that bad.

Peace.

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:28

laplace wrote:

The T wrote:

laplace wrote:

This is as things should be. ;P If you aren't actively looking for good music/food/whatever then you're happy enough with the bad, making you everyone's dream target audience.

You inferred something far different from what I stated, but that's expected from someone already in rant mode. =P

Sorry. Couldn't penetrate your Stimulator Mode.... Can you explain then instead of just showing your knowledge of human modes?

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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:33

Squonkman wrote:

Is it any wonder that progressive rock is now an "underground" movement when you have the travesty of American Idol slowly destroying the young fertile music tastes and minds of the youth culture? I am so embarrassed that the show exists and has thrived here in the US. From the destruction of classic rock tunes (now even the Beatles catalog is being massacred) to the apparant insistence by the producers that everyone sing 18 notes per word ala Mariah Carey, I can't think of anything in modern society that is quite as insipid and vacuous as that show. What kind of long term damage is that show doing on the youth of America (and the world)?

You worry too much. I am not a fan by any means but see no threat to the youth. Pop music has been around for quite some time and sorry to say, it's not dying. What I can't stand is the increase of Country music fans. Rap seems to have leveled off but Country music in the States is on the rise. Why? You can thank Mr. Garth Brooks for incorporating the Rock theatrics and sound into his shows. Country music now more than ever sounds like rockabilly.

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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:39

The T wrote:

laplace wrote:

The T wrote:

laplace wrote:

This is as things should be. ;P If you aren't actively looking for good music/food/whatever then you're happy enough with the bad, making you everyone's dream target audience.

You inferred something far different from what I stated, but that's expected from someone already in rant mode. =P

Sorry. Couldn't penetrate your Stimulator Mode.... Can you explain then instead of just showing your knowledge of human modes?

*sigh* you're so aggressive. :(

I mean what I say. As you've explained, American Idol is a family show for people to watch together, for the spectacle of it and to pick favourites, with actual musical value being a lower priority. That's fine for its audience - people who don't care about music all that much. It's a function of mass entertainment and the truth.

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FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL

Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:40

I'd take country over rap any day. Star

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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:44

The T wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

I already have had THAT on my bill also, and the Jonas Bros.......

2 it's not actually that bad.

[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]

I think you are missing the point and overthinking all this. My basic premise is that with stuff like American Idol, the Disney marketing machine etc trying to dominate and inundate and mold our children's societal and cultural tastes, we have to work that much harder to make sure that the unmarketed word of mouth, sit down and listen, against the societal grain stuff like progressive rock is exposed and heard by youth in greater numbers, or it will die a slow death, like it did for awhile in the late 70s/early 80s. I am encouraged by bands like Porcupine Tree and Mars Volta and Explosions in the Sky etc making inroads on popular music tastes, but remember, I came from an era when some of the biggest selling bands in the world were prog rock bands in their heyday----Yes, Floyd, ELP, Genesis etc

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:47

laplace wrote:

The T wrote:

laplace wrote:

The T wrote:

laplace wrote:

This is as things should be. ;P If you aren't actively looking for good music/food/whatever then you're happy enough with the bad, making you everyone's dream target audience.

You inferred something far different from what I stated, but that's expected from someone already in rant mode. =P

Sorry. Couldn't penetrate your Stimulator Mode.... Can you explain then instead of just showing your knowledge of human modes?

I can agree with that! That's what I said in my last paragraph (somewhat) in my reply to Squonkman...

I'm not agressive... or maybe a little... look in the mirror... when you say "you are already in rant mode" what other answer can you expect?

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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:52

I can certainly understand your firm stance against Idol and the sorry state of music today. Perhaps it's my being an old fart that gives me perspective (for better or for worse). In other words, having suffered greatly through the socially and musically suffocating era of disco and wanting to destroy all traces of it (almost to the point of terrorism), I'm starting to believe that inane songs, lowest-common-denominator trends and flash-in-the-pan artists will always be among us. I hate to say it but if there was no Idol, the public would find an equal substitute one way or another. I'm just glad that sites like this exist to give the true music explorer an alternative to Hanna Montana and the Jonas Brothers. I'm afraid it's the best we can hope for.

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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:53

Squonkman wrote:

The T wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

I already have had THAT on my bill also, and the Jonas Bros....... So what's just another terrible concert?

2 it's not actually that bad.

[/QUOTE]

You may have a point but my whole idea was: AMeican Idol is not really the big enemy. It's just a program that exists ina day and age when it's normal for it to exist. We have to teach children to look and seek for themselves. If they end up liking Hannah Montana, damn, so be it. What is dissapearing today is that: the freedom for children to explore. I think American Idol is mostly marketed for people over 14, even though there are always young girls crying for some contestant..

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Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 13:56

StyLaZyn wrote:

When your kids would rather see American Idol Live and Hannah Montana rather than Genesis or Porcupine Tree, there is cause to worry. Sometimes I think I am more in tune and hip than my kids.

Re country, the country that is marketed and played on the radio is the same result of the kind of slick corporate marketing hype that I was talking about with American Idol and Disney etc. Real country, what is now called "alt country" is pushed aside for the slickness and fluffiness of digestable '"feel good" praise the country, the USA can do no wrong crapola as exemplified by Toby Kieth, Brad Paisley etc, and real country musicians like Steve Earle, Lucinda Williams, Neko Case, etc have to fight for smaller audiences because they don't make digestable feel good pablum consumed by the masses. Ironically, the alt country rockers who don't get airplay are carrying on the tradition of Johnny Cash etc, and the country you hear on the radio is like Journey and REO of the 80s. So thanks for helping confirm my point about the dangers of marketed corporate machine driven music tastes.

Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:05

Squonkman wrote:

StyLaZyn wrote:

When your kids would rather see American Idol Live and Hannah Montana rather than Genesis or Porcupine Tree, there is cause to worry. Sometimes I think I am more in tune and hip than my kids.

Laugh this up. When I was a kid I used to love to watch Donnie & Marie and Solid Gold. I lived for Kasey Kasem's countdown. Today, can't stand them.

No worries. These things shall pass. But also, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Not to begrudge your point, but people actually like Pop music. It doesn't mean they are stupid or have no taste. It just appeals to them. Face it, Prog fans take pride in NOT listening to mainstream and will stand on their soap boxes to belittle pre-processed music.

Ask yourself. Doesn't music serve a purpose? Don't you listen to it because you enjoy it? Would you want someone telling you your music sucks only because their music is "better"?

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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:09

It mostly comes down to this: watching TV means that you're receptive to advertising, since many programs are essentially just large catalogues, so I'm not worried when it distorts its audience's tastes - it's one big trap but they had to trigger it first. That makes me seem conservative but then again, I think people who find themselves susceptible to that sort of tunnel vision but keep watching anyway are absolutely crazy.

More bluntly, because I'm a really mean person, if you have a TV sitting around in your family's house and your kids know how to use it, then it's too late to worry about the erosion of their taste.

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FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:10

The T wrote:

[

You still aren't getting it. Its not just another program, its the number one program around, and every kid in the country knows about it, and is inundated with the marketing hype that goes with it, like the Disney machine as well. There is little escape from it. So its not as simple as saying, hey kids, go and explore on your own and get into some prog rock, would you?, when you are competing against the marketing hype machine of stuff like Idol. They are being shaped and molded and inundated by the everpresent commercialism of stuff like this, on TV, on the internet, etc. Your posts aren't making any sense.

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:13

StyLaZyn wrote:

Laugh this up. When I was a kid I used to love to watch Donnie & Marie and Solid Gold. I lived for Kasey Kasem's countdown. Today, can't stand them.

No worries. These things shall pass. But also, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Ask yourself. Doesn't music serve a purpose? Don't you listen to it because you enjoy it? Would you want someone telling you your music sucks only because their music is "better"?

Yes... i agree completely. People like music for diffenret reasons. We love music to hear the details, what the artist intended, etc... others just love it for driving.. others as background... other just want music that lifts them up... Not everyone has to like prog music.... Music serves the purpose each person gives to it. Stupid people listen to prog, intelligent people listen to pop as well as viceversa. That's when i insist: the problem is not kids or teen liking pop music or prog... it's just having the freedom to choose, and by that I mean, the possibilities to explore. With the internet and just a few words, in this American idol days, I'm sure there are more proggsters than in the last decade...

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Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:27

StyLaZyn wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

StyLaZyn wrote:

When your kids would rather see American Idol Live and Hannah Montana rather than Genesis or Porcupine Tree, there is cause to worry. Sometimes I think I am more in tune and hip than my kids.

Laugh this up. When I was a kid I used to love to watch Donnie & Marie and Solid Gold. I lived for Kasey Kasem's countdown. Today, can't stand them.

No worries. These things shall pass. But also, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Ask yourself. Doesn't music serve a purpose? Don't you listen to it because you enjoy it? Would you want someone telling you your music sucks only because their music is "better"?

You are also missing the point. I don't dislike all pop music. In fact, I am a prog fan who is very open and receptive to pop music influences----I am not like some that won't even touch 80s Genesis for example. I like bands like Kansas and Pure Reason Revolution and the Moody Blues. I grew up on great pop music I listened to on AM radio, back when AM radio was the soundtrack for our lives. I still listen to a lot of "pop" music like Elton John, Chicago, the Beatles, and heck, even the Carpenters and Abba.

There is a difference between slickly produced corporately created commercialized pop music designed to cash in on something that is already popular as opposed to a talented band or artist being able to write or craft a great pop tune from sheer talent. There is a difference between a pop band that works hard to make themselves good musicians, hones their craft, and pays their dues and puts out a good product which then becomes popular, and a prearranged, corporate concoction foisted on the pliable apathetic masses. Which is why good alt country with great songwriting and a little edge is not as successfully marketed as "country rock" which is vacuous and cheesy and easy to sell on corporate country radio. When you have accountants and record company suits deciding what the country listens to, instead of artists and music insiders and true musicians, you get what we have today from American Idol to Disney to corporate slick country rock. It wasn't like this in the 70s, at least as much. While there is always some schlock, there was more of a freedom to make honest music without corporate meddling back then, until the disco age came along. Record companies nowadays take much less chances, and as a result, you get much less quality and more stuff that is popular for 10 minutes but will never last. We are in an era where music is processed, consumed, spit out and forgotten in a very small span of time.

Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:45

That show is actually hilarious. For all the wrong reasons.

Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 14:53

Squonkman wrote:

I don't dislike all pop music. In fact, I am a prog fan who is very open and receptive to pop music influences----I am not like some that won't even touch 80s Genesis for example. I like bands like Kansas and Pure Reason Revolution and the Moody Blues. I grew up on great pop music I listened to on AM radio, back when AM radio was the soundtrack for our lives. I still listen to a lot of "pop" music like Elton John, Chicago, the Beatles, and heck, even the Carpenters and Abba.

Me too, exactly!

Squonkman wrote:

If you mean the increase of one-hit wonders, I would like to agree because I think the same thing, but I have no data to support it. But here's to Porcupine Tree who essentially rose to the top without the need for a record companies backing. I'm sure they are not filling the wallet of some corporate suit like Hannah Montana.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:00

I do believe American Idol, yes T also the USA version, they bombard us every deay with that through the cable, don’t talk about Latin American Idol because it’s even worst.

At least in the USA version, Randy Jackson knows something about music (Well, he played with Aretha, Journey and Jean Luc Ponty) and Cowell’s comments are pretty accurate, here the woman chosen flirts with artists and nobody knows a damn sh!t about music.

The problem is that they are seeding wrong values in the youth, let me start:

No matter how bad you are or how ridicule your singing is, go and make a fool on TV: The casting shows are offensive, some guys really can’t sing at all, but they show this guys because it’s fun to see a poor idiot making a clown of himself. The sad thing is that some of them, like an oriental guy who sang something like “Shiboom Shiboom” (Don’t know or care how it’s written), must be the worst singer in known universe, but still he got a show in Vegas…Is this what we want our kids to learn?

If you suck, still rant and insult everybody on cameras: There are candidates who can’t sing a all, I’m sure their parents must have told them, or friends or neighbors, but still they cast and when with absolute logic, they are not selected, they insult everybody……That’s how we want our kids to act?

Doesn’t matter you are not the best, just look great, be popular and you will have the chance: This kids are being harmed, even the ones with good voice, because they will stop improving their artistic skills to look better, maybe some breast implants for girls, dressing at the latest fashion on guys, instead of telling them, “Please pal you have a good voice, but with a couple years of study you will be better”, they give the wrong message “Hey, look good, forget about making your style batter, you are cute so you are a star”…How many of this kids are going to succeed in real world? Probably they will be a fashion for a month and then they are forgotten.

Writing songs is a waste of time, just sing popular tunes and you will be a star: Some of this kids are able to sing they’re own stuff, but they are encourage to be Karaoke artists and sing what others write, in this way the industry will still get some extra millions for new versions of old hits, that’s the point of the show. Do you believe Rock will survive with a culture of Karaoke singers?

Some of this kids are ruining their lives: Lets be honest, some of this kids sound intelligent enough to study a career instead of wasting their time, but Mrs. Paula Abdul lies to them telling that they are already stars, if one real star appears each year, it’s too much, don’t lie to the kids, tell them the truth…”Hey, you will never do a living on this, better study a career”. But the 24 finalist already believe they are stars and waste their klifes.

There are more arguments against this silly program, I believe it’s harmful for music, but worst for the contestant and teen audience, probably the son or daughter of one of you is already believing “Why should I study, if I’m good looking and can sing a bit?”. Now tell them they are wrong and you will be the bad father/mother who doesn’t support them, while Simon Cowell makes another US$ 10’000,000 per year (maybe 10 times that) on the disgrace of many young people.

Iván

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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:13

I'm sorry guys, I want to post how it's destroying us, but I just can't focus. I mean, HOW could they vote off Michael? He was SO good!

Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:22

1800iareyay wrote:

I'm sorry guys, I want to post how it's destroying us, but I just can't focus. I mean, HOW could they vote off Michael? He was SO good!

Excellent post!

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Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 15:56

A. Idol is about one thing only. Money. Give the people what they want. They are selling what people are buying. Wouldn't we all want Simon Cowell's bank account? For all we know, he loves prog, but prog don't sell. If I have a product that I know will make me millions, wouldn't I be an idiot not to sell it, no matter my feelings towards it? Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year? Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner. They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it? No.

As for poisoning kids minds, the problem is they don't know better. They hear music they like so they gravitate towards it. If they knew for a fact that if they explored the 10's of thousands of other bands out there that they would like a lot of them more, they might change their attitudes. But most of them don't even know those other bands exist or are capable of making them happier so they fall in with all the other sheep. You just gotta hope a kid has the where with all to keep an open mind to all things outside what gets shoveled at them through pop culture and finds the big wide world out there.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:09

this is a tangential issue, and probably deserves a seperate thread, but it is related to the American Idol issue. I am amazed in this era of hundreds of cable channels, satellite tv etc, how little live music there is on television. I am talking about a regular show with a variety of bands who just play live. I hate to keep going back to the 70s, but I grew up as a teenage watching the Midnight Special and Don Kirshners Rock Concert. There was also Soundstage on PBS. Granted, these programs were on late at night, but usually on weekends. In an era where there was no videos, no internet, this was the only way to SEE what your favorite bands looked like. And those programs all had variety----you could see everything from hard rock to country to pop and even some progressive bands. Kansas played on the Kirshner show (Kirshner also produced them). Supertramp played on Midnight Special. You might see Olivia Newton John right after Bad Company or Deep Purple. It was a great way to taste different genres of music and to see bands actually playing. I know England had the Old Grey Whistle Test and Germany had the Rockpalast music show.

Its amazing now that you hardly see any live music on TV. The channels that call themselves video music channels don't show live music, or very little of it, and don't even show videos now. They show stupid "reality" shows like Hulk Hogan and Bret Micheal trying to get laid. Inspid vacuous garbage. How bout showing us some friggin BANDS playing actual live music you nimrods?????

And that was in the day when they were 5 channels including public television. Plus you had many more variety and music themed shows, which admittedly were geared for the general public and much more pop, but still showed live music----Sonny and Cher, Tom Jones, Johnny Cash, Tony Orlando etc. Now, other than SNL and a few talk shows, where do you see live music on TV?

Instead, we get YouTube, which fosters the attention span of a gnat. Watch a video clip for 40 seconds, and if you don't like it, move on to the next one.

All this is to the detriment of the general youth population, and ties in with my point about American Idol. Instead of watching real bands play real music, we see 15 minute of fame wannabes hacking classic songs to smithereens in the hopes of "touring" and making money, without every paying their dues or developing naturally as a musician or singer.

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:11

Ivan, Was any of these good arguments on the original post which was the one I replied and to which reply to reacted ? No. In that post the thread creator basically accused AI of killing PROG and the music business... he didn't say anything about the show's other aspects... That's what I replied.

Again, AI is a consequence. If you teach children to love money above anything else, then waht do you expect...

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Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:17

johnobvious wrote:

A Why did Genesis go out on a reunion tour last year? Not for any love of the music and to carry the prog banner. They had product people wanted to buy, so they sold it. I hate Idol with the burning intensity of 1,000 suns but can I blame the producers or Fox for peddling it? No.

I absolutely disagree with that statement. Don't frickin lump Genesis in with American Idol for God's sakes. Genesis was very clear about their intentions on touring last year. They didn't need the money. Phil specifically said he could take it or leave it as far as touring. They did the tour because they had entered into discussions about a 5 man reunion, and when Gabriel balked or wouldn't commit, the 3 man group decided they still wanted to play together, and they realized they owed it to long time fans who never really got a farewell or reunion tour. Did they make money, sure, but that isn't the reason they did it. The bottome line was they were friends and they just wanted to play together. If it was all about money, why did they limit it to 20 shows in Europe and 20 in the US? They could have played 100 shows all over the world----Phil didn't want to.

And in fact, it was not simply a greatest hits tour or a tour that catered just to the 80s "pop" era----they played a lot of prog music, alot of instrumentals and didn't play a bunch of "pop" era tunes, like Misunderstanding, Abacab, Paperlate, In Too Deep etc.

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:18

'scuse me, but when I saw this thread's title I couldn't stop laughing....

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 16:20

Slartibartfast wrote:

'scuse me, but when I saw this thread's title I couldn't stop laughing....

Why?

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:01

Squonkman wrote:

I'm not lumping them in. I'm making a statement about what makes the world go around. Of course Genesis aren't going to say it was for the money, blah, blah ,blah. If they weren't going to be handsomely rewarded, they would not have done it, end of story. And I have no beef with them going out. More power to 'em.

I feel your pain, man. I wish prog was given more chance to get out to the masses. And we all want people to like what we think is best of whatever category is on offer because it validates our beliefs. But when it comes down to that or the almighty dollar, that dollar will win most of the time. Is it right? That is a discussion for the ages.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:12

johnobvious wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

Genesis did not tour JUST for the money. Your statement is patently false. They wanted to play together at least one last time and they genuinely like each other. They also realized that after the debacle that was the cancelled CAS tour here in the US in 98, they did owe the fans something. Contrast that with the Police, who all hate each other, which was even visible on stage, and who toured all over the place---they did do it for the money and the record company pushing it. Genesis did 40 shows. If it was all about the money, they could have done 120 shows. So you are wrong---don't just throw crap like that out there unless you have some specific evidence to back it up.

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 17:16

I am trying to stay on topic and do not want to get into it with you on Genesis. You are obviously pretty passionate about it and that is fine. I'm sure Banks and Rutherford already had huge bank accounts and didn't need the money, but I respect your take on it. Can we still talk about AI and how it is ruining America? Hug

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 20:41

As someone else has already pointed out, since at least the days of Elvis there has been some record company producer or exec working day and night to dumb down music.

AI is not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last. Yes, it's a hugely popular show, but have you taken a look at the Billboard Top 40 lately (do the even still have that? I'm out of touch.).

I can guarantee you that routinely in every decade since the '50s much of popular music has been swill. So let's not blame AI for the dumbing down of music; that's been going on since Day 1.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 21:37

jammun wrote:

As someone else has already pointed out, since at least the days of Elvis there has been some record company producer or exec working day and night to dumb down music.

You hit the nail in the head, but it's not an owners effort to destroy music, they are not so stupid (despite they seem so), it's the terrible system.

In the 70's, guys like Tony Stratton Smith (Charisma) or Richard Branson (Virgin Records) owned the companies and also managed them, this guys searched for good artists, because an owner knows he's going to be related to the company for years, so they searched for potentially good artists that will have a years relation with their companies. The reason was that if they didn't recovered their investment in a month, they would have years to do so, that’s why bands like Genesis, VDGG or even a 19 years kid called Mike Oldfield, who had a monstrous project playing all the instruments had a chance. That's also the reason why past artists lasted longer and why some are still active.

Today the owners hire young executives who are judged by their successful choices, if they find an artist who sells 10 million copies in 6 months and then vanish...WHO CARES?

The owner recovered his investment 9in a few months and gained some millions, the executive receives his salary and probably a promotion. The executive doesn't care for long lasting artists, because he may leave the company tomorrow, so he is encouraged to recruit fast selling artists, doesn't matter if they are one hit wonders, the owners want money and the executives only care for short relation with the artists, anyway they will probably be fired before they reach 35 years.

That’s a logical consequence of this system, improvised artists may have one hit but normally they don’t repeat, the finalists of American Idol have already paid the investment the network made on them, and the company will probably make a Best of American Idol 2008 album that will sell by millions.

What else can you expect from kids who can hardly read music, much less write something coherent?

Even the telephone company is gaining money with the millions of calls being made.

Why should anybody of them care for the future of the kids or even for Rock?

I can guarantee you that routinely in every decade since the '50s much of popular music has been swill. So let's not blame AI for the dumbing down of music; that's been going on since Day 1.

There's a study that proves that for example Elvis was in the charts until the 80's, The Beatles and Rolling Stones still sell, Pink Floyd or even some Prog bands from 70's, and even Pop artists, still are popular, in the 80's the debacle started, few artists of that decade have survived the 90's, only a handful of 90 artists reached 2000's and only a couple of 2001 artists made it to 2005.

Each decade, the artists last less, that’s he business, fast selling artists (so they gain a lot of bucks immediately) and fast vanishing (to leave space for new disposable artists).

The system from which American Idol is only the peak of the iceberg is killing Rock.

Iván

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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 21 2008 at 22:12

Yep, it's all about the quick payoff these days. The record companies are reduced to suing their consumers. Not a good sign of things to come.

Even Clive Davis, who totters out at some point during AI each year to tell us all how great the ex-AI contestants are doing on the charts, has totally lost it. This was the guy who ran Columbia during the late-60's and of all people should know you need to invest in artists and give a chance for the seed to bear fruit. Wasn't he the one who signed Janis Joplin and probably a dozen other Columbia artists back when?

In any case there has always been questionable tactics:

Who had a hit with Tutti Frutti back in the '50s? Was it Little Richard or Pat Boone? The correct answer is shameful.

What were the Archies, with Sugar Sugar, doing in the Top Ten during the '60s?

Why was Convoy a huge hit in the early-70's?

I used to get pissed off that none of my favorite bands won a Grammy. I quickly learned that the Grammys are irrelevant, and so is AI. I could go on but it's depressing.

To get back to the spirit of the original post: AI is but a symptom, not a cause. The listening public has for decades chosen crap over quality (and not just in music), so why scream at the universe, when it ain't listening?

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 01:50

We're not talking whether some piece of instant pop fluff happens to be a hit song. Yes that happens in every decade. We are talking about what the significance is of most popular show in the country, and its implications on pop culture, youth and societal music tastes. How many record companies are out there who will discover, sign, nurture and let develop a young King Crimson, a young Genesis, a young Yes etc. How many record companies, in this instant "are you a hit" 15 minutes of fame pop culture, would let a band noodle around making long complex progressive instrumental filled tracks, without a real chart hit, to the point of letting them do 4 songs on a double album, and still produce their record?

Thank God for the indie movement, small labels and the exposure of the internet, but the dumbing down is not just in pop music but country as well (see earlier posts). I am not saying Am Idol "caused" all this, just that its a huge contributor to the dumbing down of society on a massive commercial scale, which produces a society where a show like TMZ, where people sit around "reporting" on whether a celebrity walked out of a restuarant or not, thrives. Who do you think watches that stuff, in addition to the plethora of vacuous scandal and "reality" shows? To dismiss it all as just some passing fancy that will all get better, instead of looking at the inexorable march to further mediocrity and devaluation of what is truly appreciated and treasured as good music etc, is foolish and simply constitutes sticking your head in the sand.....

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 03:44

lighten up, there's art and there's business and occasionally the two meet.. I mean, is it really surprising that complex and experimental music doesn't appeal to large numbers? ..BTW, you can be a tasteful, cultured person and absolutely love a show like American Idol.. it doesn't define you

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:38

.....and you can be a blithering idiot and love a show like American Idol too.

"is it really surprising that complex and experimental music does not appeal to large numbers of people?"

A---it did in the 70s.

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:43

and Jethro Tull, no?

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:48

Squonkman wrote:

--it did in the 70s.

yes it did briefly, and I'm still surprised

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 04:59

Atavachron wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

--it did in the 70s.

yes it did briefly, and I'm still surprised

which brings it back round to my original point.

Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 05:09

Is A.Idol dumbing down music for the kids??? ............ Hell no!

different taste in music is not necessarily 'dumb' that is a seriously odd notion to have, yes they might play "festival style arrangements" but thats for a hundred practical and technical reasons.......... much in the same way that if they announced this weeks special guests are X (insert the name of your fav prog artiste here) X would (probably) not indulge in 20 mins of prog-jam-widdly-nonsense (even if that same 20 mins would blow the minds of his regular audience) This isn't "dumbing down" it's sensible.

I watch AI (I don't stay in for it, but you know if it's the right day of the week and I've had a long day I'll watch it ) and I find myself routing for these kids, I really do, I'm the same with X-Factor here in the UK, yes there is some awful songs, and awful arrangements at times, but it's great fun, and to accuse another form of valued musical entertainment as being "dumb" really is frightening!

Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 05:14

Originally posted by Squonkman
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>is it really surprising that complex and experimental music does not appeal to large numbers of people?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A---it did in the 70s.</DIV>[/QUOTE

Squonkman

is it really surprising that complex and experimental music does not appeal to large numbers of people?

A---it did in the 70s.
[/QUOTE wrote:

The 1970's were a time of quite specific cultural, social and political events......... (not to mention the drugs

) ....... but I am willing to bet a chelsea bun that more folk were buying listening to Donny & Marie, Partridge family et al than were digging the new "prog" sound.......... it's just that we look back with rose tints on our oakleys............

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 05:17

prog-chick wrote:

Is A.Idol dumbing down music for the kids??? ............ Hell no!

precisely.. as I said, it doesn't define someone, just as liking classical or jazz doesn't make you a snob

Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 06:23

For this, I'm going to enter the Finnish Idols next summer and sing "In the Land of Grey and Pink"

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 06:35

Squonkman wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

'scuse me, but when I saw this thread's title I couldn't stop laughing....

Why?

Because American Idol should be subtitled:
American Idol, The Dumbing Down Of Music.

Squonkman wrote:

Is it any wonder that progressive rock is now an "underground" movement
hasn't prog always been such more or less?

Yep, someone did a Kansas tune on American Idol (Carry on Wayward Son). I'd have actually watched that. Could we be witnessing the smartening up of the show? Well Carry On was an AOR hit, someone doing Dust In The Wind, also a Kansas AOR hit would be more remarkable.
What's next, Paula Abdul singing In the Court of the Crimson King? That would be a weird spectacle, I'd watch that, too. Yeah, I'm a sick twisted b*****d. Tongue

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 09:16

Trying to rid the world of American Idol is like fighting with your wife. Even if you know you are right, you are not going to win. In my younger days, I might have wanted to fight the good fight but it just isn't worth it to me to worry about something I can't change. This is a good discussion but I'll just focus on things that make me happy instead of stressing out about the crap that they are spewing at people.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 11:21

Atavachron wrote:

lighten up, there's art and there's business and occasionally the two meet.. I mean, is it really surprising that complex and experimental music doesn't appeal to large numbers? ..BTW, you can be a tasteful, cultured person and absolutely love a show like American Idol.. it doesn't define you

I like to watch american idol (it's not something I would ever want to hear on cd), I like some rap music, I like Univers Zero. So what? I enjoy listening to good vocalists, even if the songs they pick aren't exactly my cup of tea. It's as simple as that.

Are all of you so intellectually stiff that you can't enjoy anything that is below your undoubtedly superior standards?

Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine. Wacko

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:09

Jimbo wrote:

American Idol is a TV PROGRAM. Enjoy it or hate it for what it is.

There's a magnificent device that you can use to express your dissapointment:

And then go and buy all the prog you can and then attend all prog concerts that you can.... And convince as many children as you can to go listen to Van der Graff Generator.

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:28

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I do believe American Idol, yes T also the USA version, they bombard us every deay with that through the cable, don’t talk about Latin American Idol because it’s even worst.

The problem is that they are seeding wrong values in the youth, let me start: Tv has never been the place to find the values our children should have, has it? In today's world, at least in America, TV is losing its grip on the youth in favor of THIS, our beloved media, the internet. And that sucks because none of these two should be the value-school for children but their families.

No matter how bad you are or how ridicule your singing is, go and make a fool on TV: The casting shows are offensive, some guys really can’t sing at all, but they show this guys because it’s fun to see a poor idiot making a clown of himself. The sad thing is that some of them, like an oriental guy who sang something like “Shiboom Shiboom” (Don’t know or care how it’s written), must be the worst singer in known universe, but still he got a show in Vegas…Is this what we want our kids to learn? 1. It's a TV show. Shows where people have been doing ridicule things and being laughed at have existed for ages. That lasts only the first few programs anyway. 2. If we don't want children to learn this, don't let them watch it! It airs at night anyway. Children should be sleeping by 8 pm, I mean REALLY young children like ages 1-10 or 11... 3. He's famous, so what... Another one in a long list of famous people who don't deserve it.

If you suck, still rant and insult everybody on cameras: There are candidates who can’t sing a all, I’m sure their parents must have told them, or friends or neighbors, but still they cast and when with absolute logic, they are not selected, they insult everybody……That’s how we want our kids to act? 1. It's a TV show... in today's hip-hop and "reality" show world, it's good entertainment (considered to be) to watch regular people curse at celebrities. It's just that. 2. Let's tell our kinds DON'T do that or just use the remote control.

Doesn’t matter you are not the best, just look great, be popular and you will have the chance: This kids are being harmed, even the ones with good voice, because they will stop improving their artistic skills to look better, maybe some breast implants for girls, dressing at the latest fashion on guys, instead of telling them, “Please pal you have a good voice, but with a couple years of study you will be better”, they give the wrong message “Hey, look good, forget about making your style batter, you are cute so you are a star”…How many of this kids are going to succeed in real world? Probably they will be a fashion for a month and then they are forgotten. 1. Abdul is an idiot who says that kind of things but the other two tell the story a little bit more straight. It's a show so somebody has to make up for the thrashing that Cowell delivers... 2. I don't see how Amewrican Idol suddenly turned into the teacher that all children follow... I mean, maybe a lot will do.. but those who do do so probably because their parents are so incompetent that they left a TV show be the guidance for their children instead of them

Writing songs is a waste of time, just sing popular tunes and you will be a star: Some of this kids are able to sing they’re own stuff, but they are encourage to be Karaoke artists and sing what others write, in this way the industry will still get some extra millions for new versions of old hits, that’s the point of the show. Do you believe Rock will survive with a culture of Karaoke singers? 1. No. They sing popular songs because that's the only way people will actually watch the show. If everybody sung own songs, the show may be more interesting for music lovers but for the general population I think it would not be and the rating would suffer. But, eventually, many of the contestants get to release albums with own material. At least here in the US. 2. No, rock will not survive that. But the show is not targeted at the rock audience. Rock here in America is shrinking because of hip hop and other factors, not American Idol.

Some of this kids are ruining their lives: Lets be honest, some of this kids sound intelligent enough to study a career instead of wasting their time, but Mrs. Paula Abdul lies to them telling that they are already stars, if one real star appears each year, it’s too much, don’t lie to the kids, tell them the truth…”Hey, you will never do a living on this, better study a career”. But the 24 finalist already believe they are stars and waste their klifes. 1. You always work with evidence Ivan. Where's the evidence of the long list of Idol contestants who got their lives ruined? It's just an assumption. One I can't agree with because it would be known by now. Here in this country the stupid gossip magazines and shows would be on the case just for ratings. Also, many probably love music as their biggest passion and really don't want to become, say, lawyers or doctors, so the Idol experience was just another shot at living their music dream...

There are more arguments against this silly program, Don't watch it. I believe it’s harmful for music, but worst for the contestant and teen audience, probably the son or daughter of one of you is already believing “Why should I study, if I’m good looking and can sing a bit?”. No... they will succeed only if they don't suck. There's lack of evidence about this. Psychologists haven't touched the subject and social analysts haven't also. Or maybe. Let's dig for some evidence and we can all agree on this. Now tell them they are wrong and you will be the bad father/mother who doesn’t support them, while Simon Cowell makes another US$ 10’000,000 per year (maybe 10 times that) on the disgrace of many young people. He makes that money (much more I think) on the 30 million people that tune every week... the disgrace of young people... leave that in hands of the young people... and their parents.

Iván Teo

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Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:53

prog-chick wrote:

Is A.Idol dumbing down music for the kids??? ............ Hell no!

no, its dumbing down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. AI is so popular because every nitwit who has a boob tube watches it. There is no thinking involved, people like to watch train wrecks, and in order to reap in the highest possible audience to sell commercial products, they have to pander to the lowest form of idiocy and bad taste

I watch AI (I don't stay in for it, but you know if it's the right day of the week and I've had a long day I'll watch it ) and I find myself routing for these kids, I really do, I'm the same with X-Factor here in the UK, yes there is some awful songs, and awful arrangements at times, but it's great fun, and to accuse another form of valued musical entertainment as being "dumb" really is frightening!

"valued musical entertainment"? valued by who? what value does it have? Other than seeing some decent songs hacked to pieces by talentless wannabes seeking their quick fix 15 minutes of fame instead of working hard the old fashioned way, what "value" does it have?

and why is critiquing AI "frightening"? No, what's frightening is that people watch the slow insurmountable drain of cultural value and standards with the insipid vacuousness of shows like this, combined with moronic hip hop, most of which has rendered true rock and roll now a "niche" genre in today's society, as we witness rich suburban white kids dress, speak and act like they are from the "hood" in a lame attempt to become "black" which they never will, and don't even understand why they will never "get it". That is what's frightening, and every post condoning this slow death of American culture contributes to the vast cultural "entertainment tonight" wasteland.

Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 15:04

Rocinante is tired. Perhaps he could use a rest and a cool drink of water.

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 15:07

Jimbo wrote:

Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine. Wacko

Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.

What I AM saying, if you would actual READ carefully, is that the likelihood of that 12 year old who has been bludgeoned over the head with the Disney marketing machine, American Idol idiocy, and dopey nonmusical hip hop and whatever else modern corporate commercialism is trying to foist on the masses will EVER later jam to Zappa and Soft Machine etc is virtually nil, and decreases with every broadcast of that moronicy. Get it? How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?

It sure would help if people improved their reading comprehension skills instead of just knee jerking the first wise ass response that comes to them.

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 15:19

NaturalScience wrote:

Rocinante is tired. Perhaps he could use a rest and a cool drink of water.

tilting at windmills is hard work, but someone has to do it........

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 16:37

Squonkman wrote:

How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?

well, based on this site and my own region, and just by looking around on myspace and reading articles, progressive music is definitely liked more by young people than in the last 25-30 years. believe me.

also it's interesting to note how many different kinds of people listen to Frank Zappa's music. from prog lovers, to jazz critics, to people who like strange music, to normal music listening people, etc...

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 16:39

The T wrote:

1. You always work with evidence Ivan. Where's the evidence of the long list of Idol contestants who got their lives ruined? It's just an assumption. One I can't agree with because it would be known by now. Here in this country the stupid gossip magazines and shows would be on the case just for ratings. Also, many probably love music as their biggest passion and really don't want to become, say, lawyers or doctors, so the Idol experience was just another shot at living their music dream...

I will talk you with numbers:

Each season has 12 finalists, this means 54 STARS (According to the show)

How many oif them have succeded in the world of music?

How many are there searching for a contract?

Please T and thank that I don't mention the 24 finalists

From the winners, only Kelly Clackson and Carrie Underwood have some fame, the rest, never passed the test of time and vanished soon, the clearest cases are Ruben Studdard, who's contract was cancelled last year by J Records due to lack of sells and taylor Hicks who after a hit single, was rurned off by Aruiosta Records.

Fantasia Berrino was lucky and got a contract in Broadway, but lets see how much she lasts.

This guys were supposedly stars, they told them they were stars with a 100% seccure musical career, they lied to them.

Just imagine how many kids leave their studies to pursue American Idol, I would say thousands, and for what? Even if they win, most probably won't make a musical career.

Iván

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 16:42

Squonkman wrote:

Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.

It sure would help if people improved their reading comprehension skills instead of just knee jerking the first wise ass response that comes to them.

you really should not be posting on a music forum if you're going to conduct yourself like this; you assume people haven't read posts thoroughly instead of the possibility that they simply have equally well-considered thoughts on what you've said.. consider all points of view and show some civility

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 16:42

there are no doubt, more people interested in progressive music since the 70s. my hypothesis is that (especially young people) are fed up with boring, repetitive pop-punk/hip-hop/emo/teen-pop/80's and 90's hits, etc... so they explore music that was made before their time and then wonder if that's still being done today (and it is) and who knows... maybe a group of those people with one day push forward for a second age of progressive music (not even just prog)

the upcoming decade should be real good (at least interesting) when it comes to progressive music

so to stay on point, i dont think you have to worry about American Idol, or anyone really, ruining good music. something will happen... bands will come out of the woodwork sooner or later...

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:29

Squonkman wrote:

Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.

why don't you read this carefully and read this carefully.. I don't think you know that answer any more than anyone... and putting down others opinions or taking such a tone, as if you really have a clue only makes you look like a pompous ass...

spoken by one who grew up...as many here did... in the era of corporate rock.. dopey image-laden musically bereft groups .. that we loved completely and totally. LOL

It was fun to listen to. Who the hell are you to say that they won't, wake up and smell the coffee brother.. people's preferences grow, expand, and often change.

*another on my scoreboard for hidden posts but someone has to say it*

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:36

...........

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:41

Atavachron wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.

It sure would help if people improved their reading comprehension skills instead of just knee jerking the first wise ass response that comes to them.

the response was either a purposeful misreading of what I said, or the inability to understand what I said, one or the other. It was a wiseguy post (with a confused 'smiley' to boot) that got a wise guy retort in response. Thanks for the lecture, try that on the previous wiseguy.

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:45

micky wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.

see above. I have been around long enough that I can draw from experience, both personal and learned, observation, education and I actually have a clue about what I am talking about.

And by my scoreboard, that 's about the third time you have called me names and flamed me for expressing my opinion.

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:47

darkshade wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

are you claiming that progressive rock albums of today outsell prog back in the 70s? In other words, take away the sales of the 70s stuff by people who are buying it now, and compare sales of prog groups that have been created in the last 10-15 years and compare it to sales of prog btw 1968-1978. Are you serious?

Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:47

Squonkman wrote:

It's valued by the millions that watch it, by the millions spent on it, and by those who it inspires. Not all these kids are talentless, thats pretty much a harsh sweeping statement.

It's frightening because it says that your opinion / taste is better than others. The culture of USA and UK (and almost everyother nation s changing, it's changing for many many reasons, I don't like the change in our society but t's neat and tidy to put it at the feet of one tv show, the reasons are bigger even than AI .

Some people like vacuous tv at the end of the day, it helps them switch off from their stressful lives. It has no great harm, it's the lack of balance that can be harmful. Like about twice a year I might eat a BK, if I lived on it everyday it would be harmful I'm sure, but now and again is ok. BUT, if I did live on it 24/7 would that be BK's fault???

American Idol is not to blame for the ills of society.

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:52

Squonkman wrote:

darkshade wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

no. prog today does NOT outsell prog of the 70s. i never referred to sales.

all i said is that young people of this time like progressive music more than young people did in the first half of this decade, in the 90's and DEFINITELY in the 80's. and im not necessarily referring to prog rock either. (progressive jazz, electronica, jazz-fusion, world music, etc...) dont forget, too, that a lot of young people download music (legally and illegally) so you cant really compare sales anyway.

but by going on myspace (for example) and checking out how many of the younger generation have bands that experiment, fusing jazz and rock and prog rock of the 70's and now, funk, jam bands and noticing what a lot of their influences are, it's easy to see that the younger generation take a liking to more interesting music these days. and it's easy to see why. in the 80's it was almost taboo to like anything interesting if it wasnt mainstream. this mind-set carried into the 90's and a little into the 2000's. but as the generation born in the 80's gets older and realizes that there was a lot of good music coming out before they were born and no one told them about it because the media tried to push it away, they say "hey that music was good! why get rid of it. y'know what, im going to try to bring that mind-set back"

and it seems to be going alright so far. within a few more years i see great things happening in progressive music. there are people that are fed up. and it makes sense in this time of things getting f**ked up by REALLY BAD people in power.

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:52

prog-chick wrote:

American Idol is not to blame for the ills of society.

thanks for misstating my posts.....again.

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:57

prog-chick wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

It's valued by the millions that watch it, by the millions spent on it, and by those who it inspires. Not all these kids are talentless, thats pretty much a harsh sweeping statement.

American Idol is not to blame for the ills of society. George Bush N' Friends is though.

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:04

Squonkman wrote:

Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.

It sure would help if people improved their reading comprehension skills instead of just knee jerking the first wise ass response that comes to them.

You could ease your tone a bit... I'm not easily offended, but discussing things would be a lot more pleasant if you just stuck to the topic without resorting to irrelevancies.

Back on topic... At the end of the day, I don't believe that American Idol has much to with 'the dumbing down of music'. You just have to face the fact that not all people care for music the same way most prog fans do. Those that do, will surely find their way eventually. Perhaps progressive rock will not satisfy their particular niche, but something else will - and at that point, American Idol will be long forgotten.

BTW, perhaps the situation is much worse there than it is here, but most people actually grow out of the stuff they listen to in their youth. You wouldn't believe the crap that my friends used to listen to (and me as well, unfortunately) when we were 9-13. If anything, it seems to have helped - all of us are deeply into music, even if in different fields. I would actually claim that 'underground' (whatever that means) music is doing better than it has been in decades. Maybe we have MTV and Disney (in addition to internet) to thank for that. Wink

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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:06

Squonkman wrote:

prog-chick wrote:

American Idol is not to blame for the ills of society.

thanks for misstating my posts.....again.

I did??????

and you didn't??????

STOP!!!!! IT hurts when I laugh!

Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:10

I gotta say it Jimbo, you seem to be talking a lot of sense!

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:13

in the words of War

"Why can't we be friends? why cant we be friends?"

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:17

dunno? We're not? Hey, I'm here for fun,

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:19

Jimbo wrote:

You could ease your tone a bit... I'm not easily offended, but discussing things would be a lot more pleasant if you just stuck to the topic without resorting to irrelevancies.

then in the future, pull back the throttle on the "wacko" designation and maybe you will get a more civil response.

nowhere have I said that A Idol is the SOLE cause of anything. It is a major contributor to the dumbing down of the culture, along with many other things---but since it is a music show, and has been the number one show in America for some time, and this is a music forum, I feel that my posts addresses very relevantly the adverse impact it has on society, music and the youth culture. If this were a political forum I might rant on how GWBush and the radical right wing have screwed this country up for years, but since its not, I will save that for another day.

Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:23

ok, but I still don't see it as "It is a major contributor to the dumbing down of the culture" not even in the slightest, not one jot.

It's great fun telly. That's all.

Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:29

prog-chick wrote:

ok, but I still don't see it as "It is a major contributor to the dumbing down of the culture" not even in the slightest, not one jot.

It's great fun telly. That's all.

I rest my case.

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:36

NO you know what's dumbed down this culture as far as music is concerned? way more than American Idol could dream of doing.

MTV
VH1
disco
the Disney Channel
myspace
facebook
the 80's
the 90's
ignorant people who think jazz is slow, elevator music, and/or dead!
CENSORSHIP
the grunge movement (not necessarily the bands)
modern FM radio
record companies
the last 2 presidents and company
loss of rights in the last few years
Frank Zappa's death
Rolling Stone magazine
Spin magazine
media in general
reality tv
smooth jazz (aka jazz-fusion lite)
teen kids choice awards
all those retro 60's rock bands that came out earlier in the decade

theres a million more but i cant think of them right now...

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:42

darkshade wrote:

NO you know what's dumbed down this culture as far as music is concerned? way more than American Idol could dream of doing.

MTV
VH1
disco
the Disney Channel
myspace
facebook
the 80's
the 90's
ignorant people who think jazz is slow, elevator music, and/or dead!
CENSORSHIP
the grunge movement (not necessarily the bands)
modern FM radio
record companies
the last 2 presidents and company
loss of rights in the last few years
Frank Zappa's death
Rolling Stone magazine
Spin magazine
media in general
reality tv
smooth jazz (aka jazz-fusion lite)
teen kids choice awards
all those retro 60's rock bands that came out earlier in the decade

theres a million more but i cant think of them right now...

forget Idol... you got the main culprit there... corporate owned FM rock music stations... what a wasteland of the same songs from the same groups.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:48

^ I know, my local 'hip FM station' plays the same 50 songs over and over.. and they rarely do cool things like they used to such as the Beatles catalog from A to Z or listener's top 100 favorite songs

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:48

micky wrote:

forget Idol... you got the main culprit there... corporate owned FM rock music stations... what a wasteland of the same songs from the same groups.

yea, even jazz stations (what little are left) dont stray far from I IV V, bebop or cool jazz. you'll never hear free jazz, hard bop, fusion, avant-guard jazz, or anything unless you have college radio on when they happen to be playing jazz.

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:48

HOT EIGHTY-NINE NINE
TODAY'S HOTTEST MUSIC
ALL DAY LONG

or the alternative

HOT ONE OH ONE POINT ONE
THE HOTTEST MUSIC OF TODAY
FOR THE WHOLE DAY

Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:49

Squonkman wrote:

I rest my case.

I you implying that as I watch a TV show occaisionally I am proof of the dumbing down of culture ?

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:50

Atavachron wrote:

^ I know, my local 'hip FM station' plays the same 50 songs over and over.. and they rarely do cool things like they used to such as the Beatles catalog from A to Z or listener's top 100 favorite songs

i heard Q1043 NY classic rock station one time and someone called in to request "Sweet Home Alabama". i freaked out! they only play that song 6423904756 times a DAY!!! Angry

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:51

Squonkman wrote:

prog-chick wrote:

American Idol is not to blame for the ills of society.

thanks for misstating my posts.....again.

good man... don't you think that if SO MANY PEOPLE are "misreading" your posts... maybe it's actually that you "miswrote" them?

Calm down. The topic is not bad (it has created discussion) but you're missing the point: discussion. Where people have different points of view.

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:52

prog-chick wrote:

Squonkman wrote:

I rest my case.

I you implying that as I watch a TV show occaisionally I am proof of the dumbing down of culture ?

"american idol - the dumbing down of prog-chick"

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Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:54

darkshade wrote:

NO you know what's dumbed down this culture as far as music is concerned? way more than American Idol could dream of doing.

MTV----previosly mentioned by me and the dawn of the dumbing down using TV/video to sell music, which is why AI is so popular
VH1-- see above
disco--previously mentioned by me as what helped kill prog in the 70s
the Disney Channel---previously mentioned by me and is an example of why American Idol is so popular (the whole I wanna be the next Hannah Montana, Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake pop star thing)
myspace--previously mentioned in some of my other posts as contributing to the short attention span of the youth culture. And what do you think they discuss on myspace----American Idol.
facebook--see above
the 80's---not sure what that means
the 90's---see above
ignorant people who think jazz is slow, elevator music, and/or dead!---those are the people who watch American Idol religiously
CENSORSHIP---vague, but I am always against censorship in any form
the grunge movement (not necessarily the bands)---then I don't know the relevance of that
modern FM radio---already mentioned in my previous posts (corporate commercialism and music industry run by accountants and suits who are making music decisions instead of music people, which fosters shows like American Idol in an attempt to find the lowest common denominator stars)
record companies---which I already mentioned and who want to sign the quick fix instant pop star, which fosters American Idol wannabes, which makes the show more popular, and which thus ignore progressive rock and doing it the hard old fashioned way, which again cements my point further
the last 2 presidents and company---not sure what that has to do with music, but I tried to stay away from politics
loss of rights in the last few years---see above
Frank Zappa's death---hahaha ha ha
Rolling Stone magazine----see media above
Spin magazine---see media above
media in general---that's too general, but since its the MEDIA hype that is all over American Idol, that just confirms my point
reality tv---previously mentioned by me already and since American Idol is the ULTIMATE reality show, that just cements my point further
smooth jazz (aka jazz-fusion lite)--see FM radio and music industry references above
teen kids choice awards---offshoot of the Disney corporate machine which I mentioned already/same people who love teen choice awards love American Idol also
all those retro 60's rock bands that came out earlier in the decade---disagree, that was one POSITIVE thing that happened in music, but then you have American Idol which massacres and cheeses up good 60s rock which confirms my point

theres a million more but i cant think of them right now...

once again, if you had taken the time to actually read my posts, I mentioned a good number of your list already as contributing to the dumbing down of culture and music tastes, which is what I said of American Idol, not that AI was the sole factor. Thanks for playing along, and again I rest my case. Your post actually triumphantly confirms what I have been saying all along, and is overwhelming proof of my original premise. Thanks for summing up all my previous posts with your summary, and the gavel can truly come down now.