the pope turns "green". what do you think? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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The Quiet One View Drop Down

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Posted: April 02 2008 at 20:28

cuncuna wrote:

The T wrote:

StyLaZyn wrote:

Don't you have some Dream Theater to listen to?

No... I have a planet to save.... And I think I'll do it with both the help of the Pope and Dream Theater...

Cuncuna, your view of the future, though maybe accurate, is kind of gloomy, dark, and pesimistic. I guess some optimism in these matters helps more... maybe.

Le me put it in concrete terms: catholic church is against sex before marriage. Catholic church is also against child abuse. Catholic church seems to be against other religions as well (that catholic boss recently talked about how there was no salvation outside catholic church, I know about this not because I care, but because an homosexual friend told me about this and some strong homophobic statements comming in the same speech). Catholic church is against a lot of things, but nothing stops. Priests keeps having sex (hell, I know one that has a whole familiy), priests have being constantly acused of child abuse. I'm not saying that those two things belong to the same cathegory. Sex is sex and can only be bad if it is bad (...) and if sex is bad then you'll probably won't ave sex again so problem solved. Child abuse is horrible, but catholic church protects and hides priests found guilty of child abuse. As for other religions, they will just exist on their own right, even if catholic church likes it or not. A religion based on love that declares its rejection to a whole bunch of human beings just because of their sexual choice sounds kind of oximoronic... ¿and now they are against contamination?. Catholic church makes it difficult for me to know if they are against things for good or for bad reasons, but I'm certain of this: catholic church won't invest a cent into actual environmental protection.

I was or am catholic being 14, but cause school's fault I really can't accept many catholic terms, and maybe religious terms to live..
I agree with some parts that the catholic church is getting quite strict and taking to much control of our (catholic) lives.

Let it Be!

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 02 2008 at 21:44

cacho wrote:

I was or am catholic being 14, but cause school's fault I really can't accept many catholic terms, and maybe religious terms to live..
I agree with some parts that the catholic church is getting quite strict and taking to much control of our (catholic) lives.

Let it Be!

Nobody can force you to be a Catholic, that's a choice you must make.

Iván

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Posted: April 02 2008 at 23:40

cuncuna wrote:

Le me put it in concrete terms: catholic church is against sex before marriage.

Most Christian religions are, as a fact most religions are.

Catholic church is also against child abuse.

Aby decent person is....Do you believe they are wrong?

Catholic church seems to be against other religions as well (that catholic boss recently talked about how there was no salvation outside catholic church,

FALSE, already explained and quoted the position of the Church:

The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964) is one of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II"). The Council was held in Rome between 1962 and 1965. Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on "The Mystery of the church." Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of:

	Followers of the Catholic Church,
	Members of other Christian denominations, and
	Believers of non-Christian religions. ₅

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm

Few religions are so tolerant, but you insist in your point.

I know about this not because I care, but because an homosexual friend told me about this and some strong homophobic statements comming in the same speech).

Again Catholic Church has nothing against the homosexual person, that's absurd, again I posted the position of the Church, but you insist.

Catholic church is against a lot of things, but nothing stops.

There's free will

Priests keeps having sex (hell, I know one that has a whole familiy),

Yes of course, they are acting against the orders of the Church, but that's why there's free will.

priests have being constantly acused of child abuse.

You have said it right ACCUSED, which doesn't mean guilty, specially in USA where people accuse to reach a millionare settlement, There are rapist ptriests, Rabis, Reverends, fathers, grandfathers etc, you don't judge an institurion for the wrong doers.

I'm not saying that those two things belong to the same cathegory. Sex is sex and can only be bad if it is bad (...) and if sex is bad then you'll probably won't ave sex again so problem solved. Child abuse is horrible, but catholic church protects and hides priests found guilty of child abuse.

The Church has accepted a few cases, but remember, the Vatican HAS to protect the priests, being than lñess than 1% of the accused are remotely guilty, but the preess crucifies them as soon as they are accused, but Michael Jackson and OJ Simpson were declared innocent.

As for other religions, they will just exist on their own right, even if catholic church likes it or not. A religion based on love that declares its rejection to a whole bunch of human beings just because of their sexual choice sounds kind of oximoronic...

The Catholic Church doesn't reject the homosexual, rejects homosexuality, I don't agree with that, but it's part of the belief, you take it or not.

[quote]The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage and the social acceptance of homosexuality and same-sex relationships, but teaches that homosexual persons deserve respect, justice and pastoral care.[/quote]

Any person that talks abut homophobia simply doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, as a fact the homosexual acts have been considered as a SIN AGAINST CHASTITY, exactly as heterosexual sex outside marriage.

¿and now they are against contamination?. Catholic church makes it difficult for me to know if they are against things for good or for bad reasons, but I'm certain of this: catholic church won't invest a cent into actual environmental protection.

For God's sake, your fanatic anti-Catholicism is so sick that you can't get when something is positive or negative, obnly because the Church does it?????????????

I have proved you are wrong again, that the Vatican has invested millions of Euros in providing clean energy to the country and in a couple of years they will be able to sell this clean energy to Italy.

Are you so stubborn and fanatical to be against this because the Catholic Church does it?

Would you rather a secular nuclear plant than a Catholic Solar Energy plant?

PLEASE!!!!!

Iván

StyLaZyn

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 08:04

debrewguy wrote:

The Wisdom Of Emo Phillips

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips"

Excellent! I witnessed this attitude first hand while living in the Bible Belt. Funny how something that you would think bring people together isolates them into righteous factions.

Religion: dividing people since God was invented.

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 12:24

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nobody can force you to be a Catholic, that's a choice you must make.

Iván

Not like the good ole days of the inquisitions. Tongue

Edited by Slartibartfast - April 03 2008 at 12:27

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

StyLaZyn

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 12:34

Edited by StyLaZyn - April 03 2008 at 12:35

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 12:54

Next post sorry was repeated

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 03 2008 at 13:01

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 13:00

Slartibartfast wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nobody can force you to be a Catholic, that's a choice you must make.

Iván

Not like the good ole days of the inquisitions. Tongue

Bravo....Lets blame everybody and spread hatred:

Blame:

All the Germans for the Holocaust that happened barely 63 years ago, at the end of the war only Hitler and his trust men were Nazis,. but he reached the power with massive votes.
All the Italians: Because the Romans sent slaves, Christians and Jews to the circus.
All the Romanians: Vlad the Impaler was a sadist.
All the USA Citizens: Usa made the Native Americans almost extinct with massacres.
All the Puritans: They burned pseudo witches
All USA because the Founders were slavists
All South Africans: Hey the Appartheid just ended

Aoll this (Except the Romans) happened after the Inquisition, so why stop with the Church, start your own witch hunt and blame every human institution, all have committed atrocities or kept silent during any one.

The Pope has asked pardon for the sins of the Church, what else do you want? Would it be enough to burn 100 priests? Otr maybe a similar number of 5,000 confirmed deaths in 350 years?

This is typicall, you don't have a valid argument today and you accuse for something that happened centuries ago, and for what the Pope has asked pardon (somethuing very few institutions have done.

The record of stupidity is being against the preservation of the earth just because the Catholic Church decides to take an active part, invests millions and does what no other country (Andorra, San Marino and Monaco are as small as the Vatucan State) has ever done and even try to sell their superavit of clean energy to Italy.

I'm tired of this fanatical atheists who are not worst than the Fundamentalists, they made their own atheist Cruzade with an almost religious organization, the real atheist (not the poser who wants to look smarter than he is) doesn't spend all day attacking those who believe, they just live honesty in their disbelieve.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 03 2008 at 13:03

StyLaZyn

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 13:06

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The Pope has asked pardon for the sins of the Church, what else do you want? Would it be enough to burn 100 priests? Otr maybe a similar number of 5,000 confirmed deaths in 350 years?

Would the Pope have asked for forgiveness if the Church's ways did not effect it's perception? And why did it take so long? Why was he the first to recognize the hypocrisy? Sorry, I look it as PR.

OK, I'm not a true atheist, just one in training. I hope one day to get my certificate.

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 13:14

StyLaZyn wrote:

Would the Pope have asked for forgiveness if the Church's ways did not effect it's perception? And why did it take so long? Why was he the first to recognize the hypocrisy? Sorry, I look it as PR.

Because the Vatican II Council changed the poluitics oof the Church, they decided to admit their mistakes and because a great man like Karol Woytilla (John Paul II) decided to accept the consequences and gave a damn aboul what people would say.

What would you prefer, to stay quiet as many others did? This is a on win situation, if the Pope doesn't accept, he's a SOB criminal supporter of atrocitie, but if he asks forgiveness, he's an hypocrite.

You don't want to listen anything, you have your mind made and close to anything with what you don't agree.

OK, I'm not a true atheist, just one in training. I hope one day to get my certificate.

No, you are training for bigot, nothing that comes fromn the Church can be good even if it's intrinsecally good.

Iván

cuncuna

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 13:23

This one was a huge fan of our last dictatorship. If to kill is a sin, ¿howcome there are military priests? I think that theres even a ceremony of blessing of weapons... I know, I know, I already posted this, but it was the wrong thread.

¡Beware of the Bee!

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 13:53

cuncuna wrote:

In most of the countries as mine, and according to the new Catholic Treaty, the Military Chaplain has no rank and obeys his cooncience before the orders of their superiors.

Even the USA army (guided by an old treaty with the Vatican) who allow a Priest to have a rank, allows the priest to disobey the orders that he considers unjust, the Chaplain is not there to take a bazooka and blow the enemu, he's there to provice councelling and peace of mind to the soldiers.

Every Catholic has a right to receive the marriage, communion, confession and last rites, and the only way to allow a Priest have access to certain Catholics in specific places is having a rank (duty of silence), or do you want that the priests ignore the rights of Catholics dying in the battlefield to receive the last rites? As a fact, a military Chaplain must give the last rites in a battlefield EVEN TO THE ENEMY.

Only people with highranks are alñlowed to enter to certain facilities, all the Catholics have the right to listen mass once a week, so the Chaplain needs a rank

Please Cuncuna, everytghing you said has been refuted with arguments, proved wrong several times, plñease if you don't know about something or you don't understand the reasons, stop creating confussion, you dared to say that the Pope said there was noo hell, and proved wrong, Theology is a complex issue, if you don't understand it because you don't care (as you said repeatedly), then stop providing false information vbased in what a friend told you.

Then you said that Catholic Church excluded other religions from salvation, again I proved you were wrong, now you come with this

The blessing of some weapons is an archaic ceremony already not used, but even if it happens in some places, it's only a ceremony, there are just and injust wars, the Church accepts that. But the blessibng (only ceremomnial) doesn't give the weapons extraordinary powers, the function of the blessing was to allow the owner to make a just and honest use of the weapon and avoid crimes and abuse.

Iván

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 15:49

Salvo_ wrote:

rhinn wrote:

In this day and age with knowledge of all we know, why do we still believe in religion?

Smug athiest ftl.

Smug atheist and then smug anti-atheist ftl (whatever ftl means)

Edited by The T - April 03 2008 at 15:49

The T

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 15:52

Salvo_ wrote:

StyLaZyn wrote:

Now that there are fewer Christians in the world, there will be more room in heaven. The Muslim thing is working out well for more available space. I wonder if you can rent it out in heaven?

So when the Earth is gone? What will God do for fun? Maybe he'll create a new race of "intelligent" creatures and make them fear him too! Misery loves company you know. Wouldn't that be thoughtful of him?

YOU'RE SO CLEVER! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

debrewguy wrote:

The Wisdom Of Emo Phillips

Woah, man, that's deep. There's a reason Christians "pick and choose", but whatever, you're convinced all religious people are dishonest so I'm not going to bother.

Where did he say that? You also accused me a few psots back of insulting you... and then you're best reply to an ironic post is "LOLOL"... Where's this self-righteous religious paranoia coming from man? No one is attacking you or your religion? And even if we were, you shouldn't give a damn if your convictions are so strong as they appear to be....

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:52

The T wrote:

Where did he say that?

debrewguy wrote:

As for the Pope spelling out these "new" sins, well ... most Catholics, actually all Catholics AND all people of faith (christian, muslim, jew, hindu et al) are cafeteria confessors when it comes to our religious beliefs. We believe the parts of our faith that we want to, disregard or dismiss those that we don't want. And YES, this includes the lapsed believer and the fundamentalist.
P.S. Let me repeat ... this occurs in ALL faiths.

Although the exact word is not used, I cannot interpret this any other way as claiming all religious people are dishonest (and presumably athiests are honest because they have no belief?).

and then you're best reply to an ironic post is "LOLOL"...

I could think of something better, but why bother? And it wasn't that ironic, as it was still insulting Catholicism.

No one is attacking you or your religion?

Are you reading the same thread that I am? Or do you have incredibly poor reading comprehension? Nearly every other reply has some form of anti-religion in it. Here, let's look at the examples from this page alone:

StyLaZyn wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The Pope has asked pardon for the sins of the Church, what else do you want? Would it be enough to burn 100 priests? Otr maybe a similar number of 5,000 confirmed deaths in 350 years?

Would the Pope have asked for forgiveness if the Church's ways did not effect it's perception? And why did it take so long? Why was he the first to recognize the hypocrisy? Sorry, I look it as PR.

OK, I'm not a true atheist, just one in training. I hope one day to get my certificate.

StyLaZyn wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nobody can force you to be a Catholic, that's a choice you must make.

Iván

Not like the good ole days of the inquisitions. Tongue

StyLaZyn wrote:

Excellent! I witnessed this attitude first hand while living in the Bible Belt. Funny how something that you would think bring people together isolates them into righteous factions.

Religion: dividing people since God was invented.

If you can't see why those are direct attacks on me and my beliefs, then I don't know what to tell you. Also, I would love for you to point out an example where I am being even half as self-righteous as rhinn and his precious enlightenment.

And even if we were, you shouldn't give a damn if your convictions are so strong as they appear to be....

It annoys me when people act so obnoxiously, so I respond in kind. I have not attacked anyone for being an atheist or whatever, I have only responded when they have felt the need to attack me. The strength of my convictions has nothing to do with it: nobody's mind changes on an internet forum, and I'm not trying to. I'm just trying to get people to stop being such militant b*****ds about it, and occasionally educate them about the real truth behind the falsehoods they are proclaiming (although Ivan has most of that covered).

Tony R

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 18:18

Hey guys, I know that religion is a deeply personal and therefore emotive subject, but can we try to be civil please?

We dont want to have to close every religion thread it gets tiresome. Wink

StyLaZyn

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 18:57

Salvo_ wrote:

I noticed your tag line said "freedom". Does this include freedom of opinion? To quote a friend "Just saying!" Smile

Am I alone in finding very ironic your comment about militant?

Edited by StyLaZyn - April 03 2008 at 19:02

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:03

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:05

Hey, I have no quarrel with Catholics, I just really love the Monty Python Spanish inquisition sketch.

Now we shall make Iván sit in the comfy chair and poke him with the soft cushions.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:27

I don't think anyone is getting upset at Catholics, per se, just the so-called authority of the pope to bring into and out of existence new mortal sins.

"Yesterday, you'd go to hell for this sin, but not today!"

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