Double-bass drumming...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I know that you don't like metal, it's as simple as that. You should go to some prog metal concerts and find out about this attitude first hand ... or buy some prog metal DVDs and watch them. From my perspective, knowing both metal and prog rock audiences, your saying that metal is just some anti-social punks with too much testosteron is just as prejudiced as saying that prog rock fans are all weed smoking lunatic hippies.

No, I am not saying that at all. First of all, this is tongue-in-cheek. But there is some truth in, and I don't think you can deny that, Mike. Of course all this "faster and louder" is some kind of fluffing up the feathers and strutting around. They don't do that for the music alone. What do you think the virtuoso playing of the 19-th century was all about? Exactly the same! It wasn't done for the music alone. Paganini had bad teeth, but the women did not care much when they melted to his wild arpeggios.

I don't dislike metal per se; Jean and I really enjoyed Heaven's Cry. But that doesn't make me close my eyes and ears to some of the attitudes which are around, especially in metal (in some jazz-rock too, by the way. And I detect a lot of it in ELP). It is these attitudes and mannerisms Jean and I criticize, not the genre as a whole. Heaven's Cry seem to be an example that there can be music without these attitudes in the genre. And one of the most obnoxious of these attitudes is double bass-drumming, in my opinion. "Yeah, great leg muscles you have, Mr. double bass-drummer; let me give you a (CENSORED)".


Edited by BaldFriede - March 29 2008 at 17:49

I enjoy it when it fits the music. Too fast Drumming is a turn-off.

BaldFriede wrote: I don't dislike metal per se; Jean and I really enjoyed Heaven's Cry. But that doesn't make me close my eyes and ears to some of the attitudes which are around, especially in metal (in some jazz-rock too, by the way. And I detect a lot of it in ELP). It is these attitudes and mannerisms Jean and I criticize, not the genre as a whole. Heaven's Cry seem to be an example that there can be music without these attitudes in the genre. And one of the most obnoxious of these attitudes is double bass-drumming, in my opinion. "Yeah, great leg muscles you have, Mr. double bass-drummer; let me give you a (CENSORED)".

Sorry, but this isn't funny or tongue in cheek ... it's just offensive and rude.

Yes.

Like anything that's done right, can enhance the listening experience. But it can also be a safety net for less talented drummers to hide behind.

BaldFriede wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: BaldFriede wrote: I don't dislike metal per se; Jean and I really enjoyed Heaven's Cry. But that doesn't make me close my eyes and ears to some of the attitudes which are around, especially in metal (in some jazz-rock too, by the way. And I detect a lot of it in ELP). It is these attitudes and mannerisms Jean and I criticize, not the genre as a whole. Heaven's Cry seem to be an example that there can be music without these attitudes in the genre. And one of the most obnoxious of these attitudes is double bass-drumming, in my opinion. "Yeah, great leg muscles you have, Mr. double bass-drummer; let me give you a (CENSORED)". Sorry, but this isn't funny or tongue in cheek ... it's just offensive and rude. I don't think so, Mike. It is the main intention behind all exaggerated virtuoso playing, whether you like it or not. A kind of courtship dance. Male impression behavior. I put it rudely, but only to demonstrate what is behind it. And don't tell me it ain't so; where do you think all the groupies come from? It is not for nothing that exaggerated virtuoso playing is called "instrumental w***ery".

This is just disgusting and makes me want to puke my guts out ... seriously. You are on a crusade against music with this kind of attitude ... you're against everything the progressive music movement stands for. Granted, some musicians like to show off, and some might do it to "get laid", but you cannot say that the more virtuosic someone is playing, the worse the music becomes. And for the record: Not every metal musician is out to rape you.

Yay for psychoanalysing music.

rileydog22 wrote: A double-kick drum or pedal can be useful, but not when just playing 16th or 32nd notes.  If you're using it to play creative parts that also happen to be fast, that's fine.   But if you're just playing straight-up 16th notes and not doing anything artistic, that's not fine.  That's just boring.

BaldJean wrote: Mike, this kind of attitude has been behind virtuoso playing throughout the centuries; it is not an invention of metal bands at all. the jazz stars of the 30s, the virtuosos of the romantic area, speed metal virtuosos of today, they all developed their style first and foremost to impress the ladies , even if that may have happened subconsciously. it is like buying a Rolls Royce or a Porsche: a status symbol; only musicians can't afford any of these cars, at least not in the beginning, so they have to look for other status symbols. I certainly don't deny that some great music was conceived that way, but it was definitely not "l'art pour l'art". musicians are very sensual beings; Bach did not have 21 kids for nothing music is the sensual art per se (apart from olfactory); of course there are sexual connotations. it is simply ridiculous to deny them. in the case of double bass drumming, however, this becomes especially ostentatious. and, by the way, you should also notice that Friede never mentioned rape at all

It's curious ... I really can't believe that the ladies can be impressed with musical virtuosity. Maybe it was like that in the dark ages, but today they're more impressed by cars, good looks and financial security. Dream Theater are the most virtuosic and "big selling" band currently out there, and I'm not seeing any "fan girls" at the shows ... rather the reverse.

And about the rape thing: Sorry, maybe I went a little bit overboard there. But your descriptions of metal musicians are a bit stereotypical ... the sexist, violent adolescent with too much testosteron. Did you watch the Dave Lombardo drum clinic? Please explain to me how all the "show off" attitude applies to him?

And about virtuosic musicianship in general:

http://www.dreamtheater.net/

Watch the in studio video of Dark Eternal Night ... these guys are really great musicians, but they're not showing off at all. They're playing complex, demanding stuff and don't have to prove anything to anyone ... certainly the least Mike Portnoy is thinking about while playing is what people think of his leg muscles.

I kind of like fast solos and the first thing that goes through my mind when i hear one is this sudden urge to jump on the guitarist and let him tear me apart.