Double-bass drumming...
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Topic: Double-bass drumming...
Posted By: The T
Subject: Double-bass drumming...
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:05
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A recent poll about power-metal gave me the idea for this poll. So what do you say?
I like double bass but in small doses when it fits the music, like The Dream, Shadow Gallery and most any good prog-metal band.... I don't like it when it's the only resource of the drummer like in most power-metal and most extreme metal.... Let me tell you: if you're a beginning drummer and want to impress an audience, play some double-bass and throw whatever you want on top of that with your hands, and everybody but the true connosieurs will be dazzled by your performance!  ... but those who know about the instrument will know better and will demand something new, something truly virtuose, not just a display of how strong your leg muscles are.... ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:06
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Not usually, but an exception is Ginger Baker. his occasional double-bass drumming is always masterliness! ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:28
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I would be ok with double bass drumming if it was artistically justified, which it is not in about 90% of the cases, in my opinion; it is usually just a case of too much testosterone. If Earnest Hemingway had been a drummer instead of a writer, he would have used double bass drums too.
-------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:30
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I have a lot of music with double bass,and put up with it.I just think the music would be better without it. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:39
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A double-kick drum or pedal can be useful, but not when just playing 16th or 32nd notes. If you're using it to play creative parts that also happen to be fast, that's fine. But if you're just playing straight-up 16th notes and not doing anything artistic, that's not fine. That's just boring.
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:46
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When it fits its fine, but I think it only fits in very very few
situations. Examples I can think of off my head, Portnoy's double bass
in "The Glass Prison" terrible, in "When The Water Breaks" fantastic.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: lightbulb_son
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 23:06
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I love it. Of course it's not right for all music, and most music I listen to is devoid of double bass, but in the right situation, it can be just jawdropping. There are so many instances where I have just been floored by double bass.
A few case-in points, Amon Amarth's "Death In Fire" (after the intro, the double-bass just goes off like a machine-gun, beautiful), the intro of "Shadowfear" off of Vader's last album "Impressions In Blood", Martin Lopez also has some great double-bass lines with Opeth, and even the Professor himself Neil Peart throws in the occassional double bass for his massive drum solo on Rush in Rio. ------------- When the world is sick Can't no one be well But I dreamt we were all beautiful and strong 
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Posted By: willy
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 00:35
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there are very few drummers that I accept double bass from. As said above, Ginger Baker is one of them. Its very possibly to play a single bass at the same speed as double (JoJo Mayer anyone?), and given that, there are very few things you *need* a double bass for. If anything it just drowns out the rest of the music anyway.
------------- 
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Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 00:40
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Yes- when it fits the music- I think some bands have a hard time combining both double bass drumming AND musicallity. ------------- |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 03:02
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"Yes, when it fits the music" Finally - a choice with which I find myself in perfect agreement!  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to: 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 03:04
Why only use one bass drum when you have two legs? It's like playing guitar parts with downstrokes only when you could use alternate picking. A waste of energy!  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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willy wrote:Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 03:27
That's nonsense, Mike, and you know it. I would agree with you if the other foot didn't do anything with drummers who only use one bass drum, but that's of course not true. If you use the devcice of two bass drums, you have to give up one of the nicest things about drumming: Elegantly counterpointing the rhythm with a hi-hat. The only thing you get with double bass drums is a stress on every single note, but musically that makes as much sense as repeating the letter "a" again and again in a novel. It is nothing more than "Kraftmeierei", an untranslatable German word. Oh, and by the way: Why does no-one ever think of using two hi-hats? ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: theBox
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 03:38
 Baldfriede, I couldn't agree with you more! Both on this and your first post in the thread.------------- |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 03:46
Yes! And I prefer it in music that's also a product of too much testosterone. Like Slayer. The soundtrack of my teens! Not in prog. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 04:01
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By the way: I voted for "I prefer double bass guitar", like Magma occasionally do. There is a YouTube video of them where you can see that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehU3-Wxkuk4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehU3-Wxkuk4 ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 05:01
That post sounds like you never listened to good drummers who happen to use two bass drums - or you did listen to them and are now ignoring the fact that they don't use them for blast beats all the time. Of course three things are obviously clear:
 ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 05:13
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When it fits the music |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 05:20
Mike, you'd be surprised what you can do with a single bass drum if you have the right technique. I play a lot of really complicated stuff on the bass drum, but never found it necessary to have two bass drums for what I want to play. I did not suggest that drummers who use two bass drums never use a hi-hat. But obviously they can't use it when they play their bass drums. And for me something essential is missing if there is no hi-hat in it. It is all about "balancing", in my opinion. If some drummers think it is necessary for them to have two bass drums, let them. But I don't have to like it. And I don't. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 05:41
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^ here's a video that should be interesting to watch for any drummer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inhckpMxxdo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inhckpMxxdo ... around 2:25 he plays an interesting mix of ultra-fast double bass and hi-hat "simulated" with a very small cymbal. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 05:50
Now really, Mike, I would have expected something better from you. Do you really consider that tasteful drumming? Jeeze, he even did some stick twirling! Sorry, Mike, that doesn't impress me at all. A good technician, but also very definitely someone whose drumming borders on the tastelessness. Show effects. If you like that... <shrug> This one is more my cup of tea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3lYRqcjP6I - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3lYRqcjP6I I admit there are some "show effects" in it too, but of a completely different kind. You don't have to be whirling all the time to play a good drum solo; it soon gets boring. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 06:06
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^ I like many things, including technicality. That's one of the reasons why I also like classical music and jazz, which are far more technical than rock or metal. Still, the technicality does not automatically rule out taste. BTW: It was a drum solo ... of course he includes show effects. He doesn't want to bore the audience to tears!  Edit: Did all the stick twirling distract you from the topic ... I would have expected better from you! What about the double bass/cymbal pattern around 2:30?------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 06:28
So what about it? Of course you can play "more" with two bass drums, I never doubted that; but the hi-hat ersatz was rather poor. I don't deny the man has technical qualities, but that alone doesn't make a good drummer. And "stick twirling" is one of the cheapest tricks there are; it is absolutely cheesy. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 06:40
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^ I couldn't stand a world without cheese. To me technicality is one of the required attributes of a good musician ... to others it doesn't matter at all. And some people don't like when musicians show how well they can play - whenever the technicality becomes too aparent they complain that it's too flashy (or what you call "Kraftmeierei"). In classical music people do it all the time and nobody would *dare* to complain about it. They have to stick to the composition note for note and are only allowed to make tiny, almost inaudible variations ... nobody complains. Now should I feel bad when I like the same thing in rock and metal? I don't think so - and neither should you or anyone else feel bad because of our disagreements. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: Lex C
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 07:12
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Mike and Bald, I partially agree with both of your points, and on a side note, I am working on getting a second high hat on my set. But double bass can be very musical when used properly, to meter straight 16th notes at 120 or so is actually a very difficult thing when compared to blast beats, which are far less commendable, however when done for long periods of time deserve recognition. Drummers that can do things on a single bass are also amazing (Look at John Bohnam as far as I'm concerned he invented the triple Bass) but it comes back almost all the way to the fight on drums, of having more drums makes it seem like you are compensating for a lack of skill because a good drummer can play anything on a small set and make it sound like a big set. While this can be true in some instances, big sets do not always mean compensating for a lack of skill, some people like having multiple sounds at their disposal, a Jazz drummer playing on a tiny set and a Jazz drummer playing on a behemoth, if they both have the same skill and sound very similar who should get the prize? neither, it is tied, they both know how to play their instrument very well, so why in the world should having less drums make you better, and the same is true for double bass, single and double bass is an art in and of itself.
------------- You think we've developed fast that we're civilized and intelligent I'll let you in on a secret...We've developed things the rest is just knowledge passed on. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 07:55
Technicality is one thing, Mike. I have nothing against technicality at all; on the contrary, I very much admire it. But if technicality does not serve the music it becomes hollow. And these double bass drum acrobatics are nothing but "Mätzchen", in my opinion. If I ever used two bass drums in a kit (which is not likely), I would do something completely different with them, which from a technical point of view is just as difficult as playing 16ths on them. I have developed a certain accelerating rhythm pattern that changes between four against three and three against two all the time, but changing the extremity that keeps the steady beat; thus the rhythm slowly accelerates. It is quite difficult to explain (but easy to demonstrate with a drum kit). The interesting thing about this is that I only accelerate one extremity. I will try to explain it by using the hands as example: Both hands play a steady beat, but while the left hand plays three beats in a certain time the right hand plays four at the same time, or let's rather say the left hand plays six while the right hand plays eight, because that easier shows what happens. I keep the pace of the left hand then and accelerate the pace of the right hand a bit, so it plays nine steady beats now at the same time the left hand plays six. The tricky part is what follows: I then accelerate the left hand again, so that we are back to six against eight, but since both hands have accelerated I am back in the original rhythm, only faster! Since the tempo shift is done switching between the hands one hand always keeps a steady pace while the other accelerates, only the hands switch in doing so. This is a very interesting effect and a bit stunning for the listener, who can't quite understand why it gets faster, since one hand always keeps the pace. Doing something like that with two bass drums instead of the hands would be about the only thing that would interest me in it. The other two extremities you can either use the same way or use them for syncopating only (which I prefer), because of this special kind of accelerating which mathematically doesn't allow anything else. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 08:08
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I love double bass drumming, but only when it fits the music or are used interestingly. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 08:42
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Here's an interesting example, Friede: http://www.painofsalvation.com/samples.htm - http://www.painofsalvation.com/samples.htm Listen to the track "Handful of Nothing" and tell me what you think about it. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 11:44
Interesting performance, but hardly relevant for a discussion on metal drumming... ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: cucacola54
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 13:03
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i like it when it fits the music ------------- Most listened albums last week 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 13:33
Nice! Although we could argue about what's more flashy - the stick twirling or the jumping around in a maze of cymbals ... Here, let me have another try: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEXGSoHsqzY - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEXGSoHsqzY ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: Spacemac
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 15:18
| Yes, when it fits the music |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 16:12
Well, in Dutch we say 'krachtpatserij'!
(The ij is pronounced more or less like the 'ay' in English 'way') Can't think of any English equivalent, though. 'Muscle-flexing', perhaps? |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 17:10
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When it fits the music, yes.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 17:49
Yes I like it in the right place. There is certainly no such thing as that there must be hi-hat at all times. What the hell is the ride cymbal there for? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 18:49
hmmm, some personal opinion:
Having watched that video of Vander playing, which I quite enjoyed but soon found boring,I can now happily say that you have negated every single post you've ever made on drumming.All that bluster about "why does he need to do that?" and "so and so's just a show off because he does this" That performance is just as ostentatious, tasteless and self-indulgent as any previous example you have thrown scorn on. Bunny hopping whilst hitting cymbals might pass for tasteful performance round your neck of the woods but it looks plain silly to me. Fortunately it doesnt appear to have set a trend though might explain why drummers appear to be more suicidal than other musicians.
 Not quite as ludicrous as the Donati video but certainly less impressive and more showy than the Peart one's I've offered previously.
So you dont like double bass drums, so what? That's just your taste yet you present your opinion as if using double bass drums is some major artistic faux pas......absolutely bizarre!
One person's meat is another person's poison etc...ya boo!!
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Posted By: Uroboros
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 19:09
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Well, what can I say? I love Vander's style, as well as the Brufords of the world, I also love to listen to Chris Cutler or to Tatsuya Yoshida and find them all fascinating, and I'm also crazy about Gene Hoglan, Sean Reinert, Asgeir Mickelson, John Macaluso and other wonderful players who use a lot of double bass. I guess I'm just a lucky guy... But then again, I've always thought that being a drummer helped me learn to appreciate a variety of possible approaches to playing the drums... It seems it doesn't work that way for everybody.
Friede, Virgil Donati can play anything he wants in this whole wide world and make it sound good and perfectly fitting. Dismissing Donati as a show-off or "cold and technical" is terribly childish. That being said, I like the idea of that technique you said you've developed; didn't Vander use to employ a similar technique for accelerating/slowing down sections (this "rhythmic illusion" kind of thing, seamlessly changing the tempo)? ------------- Tous les chemins qui s’ouvrent à moi ne mènent à rien si tu n’es plus là |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 20:30
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To make it clear again: I just don't like the use of two bass drums. Period. Telling me how great it is what the players play is as useless as telling someone who doesn't like spinach how nutritious is it and how much protein it contains; spinach would still be "yuk" for that person. For me the use of double bass drums is plain boring. But if some people love it - let them! Some people also put horse-radish on oysters or ice into their Scotch. And yes, I do question the artistic value of using two bass drums. It can be compared to critisizing the violin tone of Ann-Sophie Mutter, for example. She certainly is a virtuoso on the instrument, but many music critics complain about her tone and find it manneristic and thus diminish her artistical value. One can agree with them or not; the fact that she knows how to play her instrument is not changed by that at all. Just as I don't question the instrumental capacities of Virgil Donati. But his use of two bass drums I consider to be a mannerism. And nothing will change my opinion on that. By the way, I don't consider these bass drum whirls to be aggressive at all. By making a blur of the bass drum hits they lose the effectiveness and power a single hit has. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 23:14
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Well, that's your personal opinion, of course. For me the Peart video was less impressive. But to each their own. As to having invalidated everything I said: Plain nonsense. Vander's hopping around is just an expression of his madness on stage. You just have to watch his face during drumming to see that he truly becomes a madman when he is drumming. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 23:20
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As with all things... if the composition works, it's ok. If only for technique show, then no. I love a good drummer if used correctly, I can also enjoy electronic drums if used correctly (Boards of Canada). It is not a matter of "what", but "Why", as in "why using this". ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 04:03
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I bump this thread to soften my stance on double-pedalling just a little, as I find it present and enjoyable in albums such as Emperor's album with the overwrought title containing a colon and a lot of Blind Guardian or Hammers of Misfortune albums. generally I still think it's tasteless but I can admit a little hastiness ;P
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 04:09
| When it fits the music. Metallica's One is a pretty good example. |
Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 10:23
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Yes, when it fits.
No-one has mentioned Billy Cobham with the Mahavishnu Orchestra, one of the early (& best) exponents.....but then I'm showing my age.......
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 15:15
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 15:56
All artists have their mannerisms; I haven't found an exception yet. It's a matter of which mannerisms one prefers. As to unoriginal: Look up the word in a dictionary. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 19:38
Touche
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Posted By: Tenken
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 22:14
there are many drummers who play with only one bass-drum and sometimes they do it better than some who play with two. Anyway, I am whith most of you!  In Chile we have a very good band who play with 2 bass-guitarrs and 1 guitar and they are great!! -------------  ¡¡El Rocanrol no morirá jamás!!
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 22:27
Man I was gonna say how much I love the double bass drumming in A glass prison!!!  Well, a matter of taste I guess...I like it, but when used (as Friede said) in an artictic way, or to make good "melodies" with it, but most of the times its not the case...sadly ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 23:23
| I find it tiresome when it becomes the routine, instead of the part when required. And just as playing faster & faster on a guitar gets to a point of irrelevancy, the same goes for double bass drum. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 06:27
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let's face it: double bass-drumming is a gimmick, and like any gimmick using it again and again simply becomes ridiculous. since I am a keyboarder, let me use a keyboard equivalent as comparison. you can play a solo in a song using the "humorous duck quack" register, which is perfectly ok. but if you do that again and again in lots of different songs people will think you are nuts, and rightly so. also I totally agree with Friede that it does not sound aggressive at all when the bass drum becomes a blur -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 10:21
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I used to listen to a lot of grindcore and loved Bolt Thrower's double-bassing. Don't think it would work for every musical style so I have to say i like it when it fits the music. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 10:32
What prompted you to resurrect this thread? |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 13:34
I came across it while searching for something else, and since I had not uttered my 5 cent's worth in it yet I did ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 13:50
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I can't understand why using double-bass drums is just a gimmick... it CAN be integrated as part or actuyally as the MOVING ELEMENT in some music... have you ever heard Meshuggah? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like it (it's noisy as hell and really violent) but the dpouble bass drum is THE instrument, and believe me, the man has absolutely crazy feet and legs....it's AMAZING -------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 13:57
I have nothing against noisy, and I have heard Meshuggah. and no, I disagree. it is a gimmick still. they would fare much better without, IMHO ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 14:02
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Oh, I thought that when people referred to double pedalling they meant the constant variety that crops up in so much speed and power metal that the whole genre is ruined. ;P I wouldn't have associated Meshuggah with double pedalling because the rhythms are always varied so that certain beats can be highlighted, something lost when you have a linear, regular kick. ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 14:15
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I like it when it helps accent what the guitar is doing rhythmically, and if used sparingly a good double bass roll can fit quite well death metal is not a good example of this ------------- 
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 14:17
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actually never mind I want to change my vote to double bass guitars
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 16:01
They wouldn't be Meshuggah without this type of drumming. It can hardly be a gimmick if it's an integral part of their style. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 16:23
a gimmick still remains a gimmick, no matter how often it is repeated. I am not against double bass drumming per se, but I am against it if it is used over and over again. I expect more ideas from a band than repeating the duck quack over and over again ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 17:37
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I am a bit of a sucker for double bassing. However i will have to agree that it is overused in metal. The two drummers which i think use the technique effectively are probably Danny Carey and Billy Cobham, and yet they only use them at necessary times, e.g. in Tool's "Aenima" or Mahavishnu's "One Word". Portnoy is also responsible for overusing the double bass pedals.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 18:12
I agree with laplace and mike about Meshuggah's drumming. never really had a problem with double bass. not that i like it everywhere but when its present it doesn't irk me or drive me insane. it does bother me however when a band like dragon force uses it but thats just a single fault in a long list with that powercheese band. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 04:19
Well, it seems like double bass playing is slightly more popular than the duck quack ... and while I understand why you don't like it, I still don't understand why you're ridiculing it and make fun of those who accept it as a valid pattern of drumming. In the past I would have gotten angry over this ... today I don't do that anymore, I simply let such statements speak for themselves. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 05:50
Mike, you are missing the point. I ridicule it ONLY when it is being repeated again and again. I have no doubt it can be made use of on occasions and that it is artistically justified at times. but when it is done again and again it becomes as notorious as the duck quack ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 05:59
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I got to the point when I couldn't stand it any more. And that's one of the main reasons to why I have a hard time appreciating a lot of the power-prog-metal bands out there. I see no problem with it when it is used occasionally, that's when it is enjoyable, but as BaldJean so quaintly put it: when it is done again and again it becomes as notorious as the duck quack. But with that I'm not trying to say that it is silly, bad per se, or totally uncalled for in its own musical realm, it's just my position on it here and now. Hell, for some time that was what I was looking for in music. Double bass, a singer with good pipes, and a good cover on the CD! But I feel there should be possible to go around it, and make a heavy drum performance without overusing it, and I'm sure there are many examples of just that. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 08:30
It is a style of drumming, a type of beat if you will. It's not something like a giant gong which is only used in fill ins or breaks. Of course it is repeated, like any other beat is, no matter if one, two or no bass drums at all are used. Your comparison with the duck quack is the only thing that's ridiculous here, and I'm sure that 99% of all musicians who read this would agree with me. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 08:38
I see your point. I guess the whole gimmick thing is there just because double bass drumming is so intimately associated with just metal. But as you said, "Of course it is repeated, like any other beat is". 
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:02
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^ it's true that double bass drumming is primarily used in metal, but there are also some jazz drummers who used it (and indeed it was invented by jazz drummers). I can understand when people say that they don't like it, I just resent the notion that it's not valid.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:12
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read my post again, MIke; i never said it is not valid. it is just not valid in about 90% of the cases . and that's something I will stick to. it is a mannerism. there are other mannerisms in music (guitar players repeating the same 3 or even only 1 note over and over again, for example). there are moments when it may be artistically validated; when it happens again and again only the word "mannerism" is appropriate. Kraftprotzerei
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:14
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When it fits the music. To hell with double bass guitars, I want to hear a prog or jazz band with double tubas! |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:14
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Yup, I understand.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:17
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in many cases using double bass drum is comparable to a rapper telling about what a "mean MF" he is. and that's what I detest
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:20
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The battle rages on...
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:20
| Just like a frog is comparable to a balcony. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:25
You simply don't like metal. You hate the essence of metal. You're extremely biased against it. Can't you see that? I have an idea where this bias is coming from and I'm very sorry about it, but *metal* isn't to blame for it, and I hope that there will come a time when you can make peace with this daemon. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:36
you are wrong about that; Friede and I are not opposed to metal at all; we are opposed to a certain attitude which sadly is quite proliferate in metal. there is some metal we do like (though not much). some bands are indeed able to play tasteful metal. Ice Age for example, though we are not too fond of the singer. but at least those mannerisms we criticize are sparse with them ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:38
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^ check out http://www.myspace.com/heavenscryband - Heaven's Cry ... I think you would enjoy them very much.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 10:54
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Just how is ultra-fast playing on a triggered drum testosterone-driven, I wonder? You need flexible wrists and strong feet and thighs, you certainly don't need to be a musclebound powerhouse. If I were to look for a 'Hemmingway of the drumkit', I'd think of Art Blakey, Philly Joe Jones, Marc Edwards, Khamid Drake, Milford Graves, William Hooker, Han Bennink, Buddy Rich (obviously), Zach Hill and... Susie Ibarra. Still fairly disparate drummers. No metal drummers here; Zach Hill would be the closest, but he's still not metal. 'Pre-trigger' metal drummers such as Mike Smith or Dave Lombardo or Mick Harris fit the bill better, but with all due respect, they don't match the ferociousness of the above (except Lombardo in Fantomas,maybe). |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 11:00
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double-kick drumming is a skill like any other; some can do it well and others cannot, but I doubt that testosterone has much to do with it, just speed, timing and stamina. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 11:01
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Not all the time, only when it fits the context. Some may disagree here, but if that even means a whole song demands double-bass drums thoughout it, than I am cool with that.
To me, it doesn't make sense to simply not use it, as it is an extra means of expression, but at the end of the day, it has to be used appropiately to enhance the music.
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 11:08
indeed, Mike, this is more to our liking. even the bass sounds warm here ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 11:11
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^ they're one of my favorite bands ... you can download their two albums for free from their website.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 11:18
Ohhh, I wish I knew that a bit earlier!
Cool, might do that soon actually. What I heard of them from Myspace was really good, I'll recommend them too
 Sorry for being off topic
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 11:23
we will probably do that. there were a few things I could criticize (keyboards a bit billowing at times, voice of singer a bit strained occasionally), but they are really minor, and I might even get used to them. certainly more along my avenue than what you usually present to me . from what I have heard I would give the music 4 stars.and now let's all break into a paraphrase of the Who's "Tommy": "Extra! Extra! Prog-rock bonanza! BaldJean in miracle cure!" ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 11:31
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I think it is easy to overuse the double bass drumming, just like it is really easy to just simply write a guitar solo that is as fast as possible, while forgetting about nuances and everything else that can make a phrase stand out from the others etc.
In the case of drums, we aren't really exposed to drum solos on a regular basis, maybe on live performances, but certainly not too common on the vast majority of studio albums.
While it doesn't always have to be the case, but it can be really effective to see the drums not just as merely something to keep rhythm, but to emphasise points in a song and in particular with double bass drumming, it can serve to make emotions in a song more intense and more to the point, or perhaps it can do the reverse, make things more subtle and lead you on a path of not knowing exactly where the feelings are going, leading to a sense of mystery and mystique.
When used appropiately, double bass drums can be more effective than many people realise.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 11:50
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There is a certain trick in the way you kick the bass drum that can give you the effect of a double bass drum, although not for these minute-long thunders some drummers produce with it. But it is all I need to emphasize certain parts of the bass drum. And I would feel ashamed of myself if I had to use a double bass-drum for that. On the contrary; I am glad I can juxtapose the effect with playing the hi-hat at the same time. It is hard to describe that trick but easy to demonstrate.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 12:17
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Here are two videos which might provide useful insights: 1. Dave Lombardo at a drum clinic, saying some interesting things about drumming in general and then playing Slayer's Angel of Death: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpQxE0plAzo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpQxE0plAzo 2. The full song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBW_b-WJ2us - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBW_b-WJ2us ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 12:47
Definitely not my style of drumming. My style is a lot more relaxed. But it pretty much demonstrates what I always criticize about those bass drum staccatos: The notes blur into each other. It is like being in the alps during a thunderstorm; all those echoes keep the thunder constantly rolling. You don't hear the single thunder anymore. At first this may sound aggressive, but after a while it simply loses its effect; you don't hear anything anymore but a constant blur; you only realize the thunder when the thunderstorm suddenly stops.------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 12:49
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There is a certain trick in the way you kick the bass drum that can give you the effect of a double bass drum, although not for these minute-long thunders some drummers produce with it. But it is all I need to emphasize certain parts of the bass drum. And I would feel ashamed of myself if I had to use a double bass-drum for that. On the contrary; I am glad I can juxtapose the effect with playing the hi-hat at the same time; something you can't do when double bass-drumming. It is hard to describe that trick but easy to demonstrate. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 13:24
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One of my favourite double Bass Drum moments was from Jon Hiseman of Colloseum in his solo. What he does is a fast double bass drum roll whilst playing a slow single stroke roll on his snare. Sounds simple enough hey.........but then he simultaneously speeds up the snare roll whilst slowing down the bass drums, they meet at the same tempo in the middle until the bass drum roll is slow against the fast snare roll and then he takes it back again.
I tried it and it's incredibly difficult to do, particularly with the evenness of tempo change he displayed.
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 13:29
| I don't usually. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 14:15
Well, I don't just hear a constant blur, I can easily make out the "notes" and I could write them down in standard notation. A thunderstorm is chaotic, whereas what Lombardo plays are precise rhythms, and at the same time not computer like but with subtle nuances (groove). It's also not monotonous ... there are many breaks, a lengthy half-time section and many rhythmic variations throughout. BTW: Of course the track showcases a lot of what you would call "metal mannerisms" ... of course I won't argue that. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 16:21
I can count them too, but when delivered this way the bass drum loses its pitch, and this is responsible for the "blur" effect. It is definitely NOT the way Lombardo puts it, as if someone is hitting you in the stomach all the time, it becomes more like someone grinding his fist into you. By the way: I voted "When it fits the music", but that is, as already mentioned, only true in about 10% of the cases. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 16:26
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^ but the "kick" is very precise and doesn't blur. Of course the bass drum needs to be miked and set up differently for metal blastbeats than for more traditional sounds. Hence the need for gigantic drum kits like for example that of Mike Portnoy.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 16:34
No, you don't seem to get what I mean by "blur". Every note has a certain build-up, even a bass drum hit; when played at this speed the note does not have time for the build-up. It is not "bop" and then it is over; go ahead and kick the bass drum alone slowly, and you will hear what I say. This gets lost when played at this speed. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 16:37
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^ it's not important at this speed. You could also argue that other instruments should not be played beyond a certain speed because the notes can't "ring out" properly ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 16:43
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Well, that's the point where we differ, but then that's my whole philosophy about bass-drumming. A bass drum should accentuate the playing of the drums in my opinion, but there is no way you can argue that this kind of bass-drumming actually accentuates anything. If you give an accent to every note you might as well give one to none. It is like an actor putting emphasis into every single word he or she speaks - it sounds absolutely nonsensical then. No, an actor will put the emphasis onto certain words only.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 16:50
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http://www.symphonyx.com/audio.html - http://www.symphonyx.com/audio.html Listen to the track "Evolution". You'll find that only the chorus uses the pattern which you describe, where the whole bar is filled with evenly distributed and accentuated bass drum notes. I'm sure you won't find any metal song (let alone prog metal) which solely consists of this monotonous pattern ... there's always an element of variation. And why shouldn't there be situations where the bass drum and/or other instruments play something monotonous while some other instruments have the focus? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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Posted By: Paper Champion
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 17:02
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The second point for sure. When it doesn't fit the music, it just spoils it. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 17:14
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I think Jean hit the nail on the head when she posted that using double bass drum in many cases simply is the instrumental equivalent of a rapper saying "I am the meanest MF around". It is a widespread attitude among metal musicians, not only in prog metal and not only among drummers (other musicians have other ways of expressing this, of course, like shredding), and I think you know that pretty well, Mike. It is an attitude that existed even at the very beginning of rock already. And it is chiefly this attitude which I criticize.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2008 at 17:19
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^ I know that you don't like metal, it's as simple as that. You should go to some prog metal concerts and find out about this attitude first hand ... or buy some prog metal DVDs and watch them. From my perspective, knowing both metal and prog rock audiences, your saying that metal is just some anti-social punks with too much testosteron is just as prejudiced as saying that prog rock fans are all weed smoking lunatic hippies.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa/aoty-2024/vote" rel="nofollow - 2024 Release Poll Listened to:
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