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Topic Closedthe pope turns "green". what do you think?

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StyLaZyn View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2008 at 08:49
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
What John Paul II explained is not that hell is a place with fire, tortures and a guy in red pijamas, he explained that the nature of hell is remaining self excluded for eternity from God.
 
John Paul II also said that hell is not a punishment imposed by God, but a self-decided fate.
 
But no Pope has ever said hell doesn't exist, magazines write nonsense without verification, this is how sects and cults are created, people misundserstand a message and considers it his truth.
 
Iván 
 
Having 15 plus years of Roman Catholic teaching (parochial school and mass 2-3 times a week), I was always taught that Hell is in fact not a place where souls are tormented by fire, but a state of the soul that suffers being alone for eternity. Hell was described as the absence of God.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2008 at 08:44
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Admin Note:

So far, this thread is proceeding well, but let's try to keep things civil, yes? Impassioned debate is fine, so long as it doesn't descend into name calling & abuse.


Is it ok if I say "¡¡¡YOU ARE THE 'BIG GENERATOR' OF HUMANITY!!!" to someone?... I mean, it is not obscene or anything, but sure it'll hurt...
 
I can appreciate the humor here. I wneed to point something out though. This illustrates the problem of improper communication. How? I happen to like BG quite a bit. Much more so over Tales and CTTE.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2008 at 01:26
Originally posted by Salvo_ Salvo_ wrote:

 
You're just being subjected to extremely poor journalism, which is common on religious matters or really anything that has a degree of subtlety. The media is kind of retarded.
 
 
 
The problem of the media, is that many journalists believe they know everything and talk about things they don't knoiw a word.
 
A soccer narrator said on national TV during the Euro 2004 that Greece is called the Hellenic Country because of the Queen Helen of Troy. Ouch That program had an open phone, so I called him and explained the aberration he had just said, he replied "I think I know what I'm talking about, but anyway, this phone is for football issues, not to correct me". LOL.
 
Of course the rival stations made mockery out of the guy.
 
The same happens here, a guy who doesn't know a word about Theology, reads a complex Pontificial Document and of course he doesn't understands it, but still he says an aberration, because a Pope contradicting the previous one is always news, even if this statement is false.
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 23:42
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

In fact:

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/346354/0/papa/benedicto/infierno/

You'll need an online translation, but there you have it: "Pope Benedict (number) contradicts Juan Pablo II (I don't know if John Paul II is the right translation) and says hell do exist". And some more stuff about it that will probably come out as a Jonh anderson lyric from the online translation. You are welcome.

According to the article (and some more), the "hell doesn't exist" statement is from 1999. So my memory doesn't suck that much (a memory from almost 10 years back, and from something I don't particulary care and I ust heard on TV while probably electrocuting myself with some house made Van der Graaf Generator). Hurray me...
JPII was pope in 1999, so I assume that's right. As far as I can tell, they are referring to a statement in which he said that Hell is not a physical place (which is correct). What Benedict said does not contradict it, he's only saying that Christianity has lost focus on Hell (which is also true), and they should remember that it's a real place.
 
You're just being subjected to extremely poor journalism, which is common on religious matters or really anything that has a degree of subtlety. The media is kind of retarded.
 
Oh, Ivan already got it. Oh well.


Edited by Salvo_ - March 17 2008 at 23:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 22:44
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

...But the church (the big one) should stop even condemning homosexuals, as it creates a mental image in some followeres that they are, after all, second-class persons....
 
 
Awesome! I am a believer that homosexuality is not a choice in most cases. Religion/Church can't change what a person is when they are born. And they attempt to strip away any true happiness that person might find with another human being which happens to be of the same sex. That is a sin, to me, and committed by a Church that makes up sins as they see fit. It is hypocritical in my eyes.
 
 
 
I agree that homosexuality is not a choice. I find the Church is way too at odds with itself and it is discrimination like this that slows down the advancement of society IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 22:39
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

the pope turns green?... better than the Dark Side I guess.


 
LMAO!Big%20smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 21:55
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:



According to the article (and some more), the "hell doesn't exist" statement is from 1999. So my memory doesn't suck that much (a memory from almost 10 years back, and from something I don't particulary care and I ust heard on TV while probably electrocuting myself with some house made Van der Graaf Generator). Hurray me...
 
Sorry Cuncuna, the magazine is talking BS, they misunderstood what John Paull II said in 1999:
 
Quote
JOHN PAUL II

GENERAL AUDIENCE

Wednesday 28 July 1999

   

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely,  can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell.  It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.

In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.

...
 
The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
 
 
What John Paul II explained is not that hell is a place with fire, tortures and a guy in red pijamas, he explained that the nature of hell is remaining self excluded for eternity from God.
 
John Paul II also said that hell is not a punishment imposed by God, but a self-decided fate.
 
But no Pope has ever said hell doesn't exist, magazines write nonsense without verification, this is how sects and cults are created, people misundserstand a message and considers it his truth.
 
Iván 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 18 2008 at 00:53
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 21:53
Originally posted by cuncuna cuncuna wrote:

¿How exactly can one do that anyway?. I just can turn right or left...


Just don't get him angry. You wouldn't like him when he's angry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 21:40
Big Generator = 3/5 stars
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 20:51
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Admin Note:

So far, this thread is proceeding well, but let's try to keep things civil, yes? Impassioned debate is fine, so long as it doesn't descend into name calling & abuse.


Is it ok if I say "¡¡¡YOU ARE THE 'BIG GENERATOR' OF HUMANITY!!!" to someone?... I mean, it is not obscene or anything, but sure it'll hurt...
¡Beware of the Bee!
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 14:33
¿How exactly can one do that anyway?. I just can turn right or left...
¡Beware of the Bee!
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 14:31
the pope turns green?... better than the Dark Side I guess.


The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 14:30
In fact:

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/346354/0/papa/benedicto/infierno/

You'll need an online translation, but there you have it: "Pope Benedict (number) contradicts Juan Pablo II (I don't know if John Paul II is the right translation) and says hell do exist". And some more stuff about it that will probably come out as a Jonh anderson lyric from the online translation. You are welcome.

According to the article (and some more), the "hell doesn't exist" statement is from 1999. So my memory doesn't suck that much (a memory from almost 10 years back, and from something I don't particulary care and I ust heard on TV while probably electrocuting myself with some house made Van der Graaf Generator). Hurray me...


Edited by cuncuna - March 17 2008 at 14:33
¡Beware of the Bee!
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2008 at 14:27
Originally posted by Salvo_ Salvo_ wrote:

T, I read your shock as implying that you can't believe someone would be so dumb/ignorant, but if that's not what you meant, then I accept it as a miscommunication.
 
cuncuna, I'm still waiting for you to show me where a Pope said Hell does not exist.


I can't travel back in time to show you a specific segment of the news of my country. Truth is, I didn't paid much attention to it back then either, but I do remember it since it was some sort of  ¿what? moment for me. As much as the new one saying "no, no, it does exist". Don't worry, I'll find it for you. 
¡Beware of the Bee!
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 21:45
T, I read your shock as implying that you can't believe someone would be so dumb/ignorant, but if that's not what you meant, then I accept it as a miscommunication.
 
cuncuna, I'm still waiting for you to show me where a Pope said Hell does not exist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2008 at 15:45
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

...But the church (the big one) should stop even condemning homosexuals, as it creates a mental image in some followeres that they are, after all, second-class persons....
 
 
Awesome! I am a believer that homosexuality is not a choice in most cases. Religion/Church can't change what a person is when they are born. And they attempt to strip away any true happiness that person might find with another human being which happens to be of the same sex. That is a sin, to me, and committed by a Church that makes up sins as they see fit. It is hypocritical in my eyes.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2008 at 15:18
Originally posted by Salvo_ Salvo_ wrote:

Sorry, the swearing was a bit much, although I never directly insulted anyone, unlike The T....Where is my direct insult??? ConfusedConfusedBut point taken. Edited for civility.
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Salvo_ Salvo_ wrote:

Their position on homosexuality. Yeah, I wasn't very clear on that, but I thought you could follow my direct matching up of your points down in a row. I am not going to argue it with you or anyone else. But I still like you BaldJean and BaldFriede. Hug
  
Isn't the position of the church that homosexuality is an aberration, a sin, and that homosexuals are either sick or perverted, but never normal people? I just can't believe someone agrees with that on this day and age. Well, there are still people who believe Adam and Eve were the first people on earth....Talk about double standard... Poor Jesus must be having nightmares seeing what kind of "solidarity" was created in His name.... 
Please don't play the moral high ground card on me; it's completely uncalled for. I'm not playing any moral high ground card or any card on you. You just said you agree with the church about homosexuals, I was baffled as the church position on homosexuality is hardly the most open one. I haven't done it at all in this thread, and acting self-righteous helps nobody. If you got that idea, I'm sorry. I just can't agree with someone agreeing on mass-segrebation. You can think it, but saying it is not condusive to discussion at all. Implying that believing one of the core beliefs of Christianity makes you ignorant and stupid is also completely unnecessary. You said it: implying. And I'm not even implying, even though I will recognize that I really think it's lack of education or just indoctrination what in most cases may lead people away from more scientific views of the world and towards Creational theories... That's my view. Yes, Genesis is not literal, but some aspects of it must be true or the whole thing doesn't work. Please choose your words more carefully in the future. I think you were too careful, on the other hand, not explaining what you really meant by "I agree with their position on homosexuality". Those words are also open to interpretation. Let's all be careful in the future, ok?
 
Anyway, no, the Church does not believe that homosexuals are monsters. You're thinking more of the Westboro Baptist Church idiots, who are a fringe group by any standard and actually Protestants. Yes, that church is full of the biggest idiots on this earth, people carrying "god hates fags" or "thank god for aids" banners... I agree 100%. But the church (the big one) should stop even condemning homosexuals, as it creates a mental image in some followeres that they are, after all, second-class persons....
 
admin: the word "fag" is used here as a direct citation and an example of one of the atrocities fanatism can create. I hope you understand why is being used here.


Edited by The T - March 14 2008 at 15:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2008 at 13:38
Quote Originally posted by Passionist


Then to the last post on this thread... Baptist idiots? Does that really mean people here should come around and understand catholics, but the baptists are idiots? I personally think everyone who's afriad of different sexualities is an idiot to a certain point. That, or afraid of their own sexuality, if that's the case here.
 
Salvo was not talking about the Baptists in general, who are a very respectable religion, he was talking about the Westboro Baptist Church, AND NO THEY ARE NOT IDIOTS, THEY ARE THE WORST KIND OF BIGOTS YOU CAN FIND, AN IDIOT IS NOT GUILTY BECAUSE OF HIS/HER LACK OF INTELLIGENCE, BUT  A NORMAL PERSON WHO HAS THIS IN HIS PAGE AS THEIR BANNER, IS WORST THAN AN IDIOT:
 
 
 
Since 1955, Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) has taken forth the precious from the vile, and is therefore as the mouth of God (Jer. 15:19). In 1991, WBC took her ministry to the streets, conducting over 34,000 peaceful demonstrations (to date) opposing the fag lifestyle of soul-damning, nation-destroying filth. In response, america bombed WBC. Now, God is america's enemy, dashing your soldiers to pieces.3,987 dead. 29,314 wounded.
 
 
I ask the pardon of the members for this symbolls and messages, I'm not supporting them, just quoting part of their website to prove what kind of people they are.
 
The Westboro Baptist Church is an anti Homosexual and Anti USA cult (No Church can be so radical), no Church has the right to step over the flag of any country.
 
Hate is their ideology, this are sites recommended by them, all trash, God doesn't hate, BIGOTS HATE.:
 
 
The Catholic Church keeps an anti-HOMOSEXUALITY policy, but this idiot called Fred Phelps from Topeka Kansas hates Homosexuals, he would kill them if he could.
 
This is the position of the Catholic Church:
 
Quote

U.S. Bishops Urge Constitutional
Amendment to Protect Marriage

The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage and the social acceptance of homosexuality and same-sex relationships, but teaches that homosexual persons deserve respect, justice and pastoral care.

http://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp 
 
I don't agree with the position of the Church, but is a moderate one, the CC is against any form of intercourse not oriented towards procreation, this includes homosexuality, sex outside the marriage, and artificial methods to prevent conception;  but the Catholic Church doesnt hate homosexuals.
 
So I agree with Salvo but not with the adjective, is too soft for this kind of people who believe God is hate.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 14 2008 at 13:49
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2008 at 12:33
^ it IS an interesting point; actually my family is probably sick of hearing it from me LOL I'm not sure it applies to them though...They're Christians and don't feel they'll be saved before the environmental problem gets out of control...they don't even seem to think it is or will ever be a problem.  I think the main places where most people gain their impression of issues like this are noticeably biased against it, and have a wonderful way of making environmentalists and "greens" look like wacky leftists (which they are to an extent), the more extreme ones keep conservative Christians from taking the issue seriously.  But as for the evangelists and "hardcore" protestants, I can support GS's point, these folks seriously think that messing up the planet is fine-and-dandy because soon, it will be home exclusively to atheists, gays, rock musicians, and the French.

Edited by jimmy_row - March 14 2008 at 12:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2008 at 10:34
Simultaneous religion and environmental discussion!  This thread delivers!
 
Perhaps this topic can tie the two together again:  I've seen it discussed before, and it's kind of interesting...
 
Do you think that because of the Christian idea of Heaven and Rapture (i.e. the notion that someday soon we'll all be instantly whisked off to a better place than earth), western civilization has cared less about the environment?  That is to say, since the christians, who have held power throughout western history and through the industrial revolution, will be all raptured away to heaven, leaving the earth to satan and his slaves, western people haven't been good stewards of the earth?
 
That sentence is all kinds of comma-spliced, but I think you get the point...
 
I don't necessarily agree, but it's an interesting point.
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