Should Styx be considered as Prog?

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Easy Money wrote: If you were into music in the early 70s, and buying records week by week looking for innovative rock and jazz from bands that were breaking new boundries with each new output, you would not have been suprised with Styxx's eventual musical direction. No one I knew back then ever considered them to be "progressive". They were copy cats who were following what was a brief trend of popularity for so-called progressive rock.   I agree that in the 70's few people from the Prog communitty considered them Prog but they were and something STYX never was is copycats, they were quite original, their sound was unique, they were not  trying to clone Yes, Genesis or anybody, they were being themselves, for good or bad.   Few bands had such a powerful vocal work with 4 members that could take the lead vocals and probably the best chorus after Queen, they were unique from the start.   The Prog era didn't brought them popularity, John Curulewsky left and Denis De Young took control of the band, they became more POP or AOR oriented but still they were original, nobody achived such pomposity in mainstream tracks as Crystal Ball or Come Sail Away.   BTW: If they were copy cats searchibng for popularity...they would had chosen other genre, remember they were from USA and in the early 70's Prog wasn't even remotely popular in this side of the Atlantic ocean.   Iván

Good point, Ivan. I remember Rolling Stone (that bible of pretentious rock criticism) making a sarcastic remark about Styx & Kansas just trying to be the American Yes (?????????????). This was before Grand Illusion & Leftoverture.
For those who choose to judge Styx on their later output, they would be well advised to consider that most of their prog idols updated & streamlined their sound as they went along. Not many became as openly commercial as Styx. But to ascribe lucre as the ONLY motivation just shows the elitist mentality that sometimes takes over some people's thinking. It is POSSIBLE that the members of Styx truly wanted to play the music they put out after Grand Illusion, and enjoyed it. Just watch the Las Vegas like DVD that DeYoung put out and ask yourself if he couldn't have figured that he could make more money with Styx than solo. Maybe that's the music he wants to play now. And to be truthful, there are surely prog bands out there who compose & play prog knowing full well that is the only way they can make a career , i.e. it's a job that's better than most. We just don't hear that side too often, nor venture to sl*g these "artistes" who play our enlightened music. Heck, I read a recent interview with Ian Anderson who mentions that he's not all that crazy about playing loud music -
"Talking to Acoustic magazine, he said, "I never really liked rock or loud music very much."

Excuse me, but WHAT?!

"Very much" is the qualifier, he said, "I like it a little bit. I like being loud for a little while and I like listening to loud music for a little while," explaining that he like many British rockers who went to art school instead of music school were into American blues. He never cared for Elvis or experienced the thrill of blowing away his audience with a flute through a stack o' Marshalls.

Don't worry. There are tunes he won't do anymore, but Aqualung isn't among them."

Yet, many of the big Tull Lps were not quite quiet were they ?

Edited by debrewguy - September 26 2007 at 18:57

well I'll just have to respectfully disagree before we have another "rainbow psychadelic thread"

Been thinking about this and:

ejhm... Only if "Should" means "not me", "Styx"  means  "Styx sucks b“lls (bills) jupiter size", "be" means "erase their discography ", "considered" means "destroyed", "as" means  "blasted into space" and "prog" means "musician loosing it".

debrewguy wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Easy Money wrote: If you were into music in the early 70s, and buying records week by week looking for innovative rock and jazz from bands that were breaking new boundries with each new output, you would not have been suprised with Styxx's eventual musical direction. No one I knew back then ever considered them to be "progressive". They were copy cats who were following what was a brief trend of popularity for so-called progressive rock.   I agree that in the 70's few people from the Prog communitty considered them Prog but they were and something STYX never was is copycats, they were quite original, their sound was unique, they were not  trying to clone Yes, Genesis or anybody, they were being themselves, for good or bad.   Few bands had such a powerful vocal work with 4 members that could take the lead vocals and probably the best chorus after Queen, they were unique from the start.   The Prog era didn't brought them popularity, John Curulewsky left and Denis De Young took control of the band, they became more POP or AOR oriented but still they were original, nobody achived such pomposity in mainstream tracks as Crystal Ball or Come Sail Away.   BTW: If they were copy cats searchibng for popularity...they would had chosen other genre, remember they were from USA and in the early 70's Prog wasn't even remotely popular in this side of the Atlantic ocean.   Iván     Good point, Ivan. I remember Rolling Stone (that bible of pretentious rock criticism) making a sarcastic remark about Styx & Kansas just trying to be the American Yes (?????????????). This was before Grand Illusion & Leftoverture. For those who choose to judge Styx on their later output, they would be well advised to consider that most of their prog idols updated & streamlined their sound as they went along. Not many became as openly commercial as Styx. But to ascribe lucre as the ONLY motivation just shows the elitist mentality that sometimes takes over some people's thinking. It is POSSIBLE that the members of Styx truly wanted to play the music they put out after Grand Illusion, and enjoyed it. Just watch the Las Vegas like DVD that DeYoung put out and ask yourself if he couldn't have figured that he could make more money with Styx than solo. Maybe that's the music he wants to play now. And to be truthful, there are surely prog bands out there who compose & play prog knowing full well that is the only way they can make a career , i.e. it's a job that's better than most. We just don't hear that side too often, nor venture to sl*g these "artistes" who play our enlightened music. Heck, I read a recent interview with Ian Anderson who mentions that he's not all that crazy about playing loud music - "Talking to Acoustic magazine, he said, "I never really liked rock or loud music very much." Excuse me, but WHAT?! "Very much" is the qualifier, he said, "I like it a little bit. I like being loud for a little while and I like listening to loud music for a little while," explaining that he like many British rockers who went to art school instead of music school were into American blues. He never cared for Elvis or experienced the thrill of blowing away his audience with a flute through a stack o' Marshalls. Don't worry. There are tunes he won't do anymore, but Aqualung isn't among them." Yet, many of the big Tull Lps were not quite quiet were they ?

jimmy_row wrote: ^^I have to admit I laughed a bit when I saw Meatloaf on there; Kansas is way ahead of the other bands there (of course Rush doesn't count....USA????wff) but I agree - they definately never tried to be "prog-clones", still, many will always write off mid-70's American bands because they weren't in the same ballpark as Yes and ELP.   Most people who think that Styx shouldn't be here (I don't care if they were "good" or not) haven't even listened to anything other than radio hits:  Babe, Roboto, Best of Times, etc.....so then why don't we judge Yes on 90125?

Re : Meatloaf - I think that the article would have been written after the first album. There are parts that are more "composed" than most pop music, such as the Bat out of Hell overture and what not. I remember some reviews using words like operatic to describe the album's style.
You are right in regards to American bands being slighted for perceived shortcomings when it comes to their progginess. But then, U.S. hard rock & metal bands used to subjected to the same sl*gging. The american style was supposedly more meat & potatoes basic, more Broadway in presentation; while the British were more flash , more esoteric or high minded  , & music hall being an influence.
OF course, to the music fan, whatever the influences or music styles combined don't matter. The end result is what I'm hearing. So Zep might have their folk influences such as Jansch, but an American band might carry forward more of the rockabilly & country sounds that they were more exposed to. Unfortunately, I can't come up with a U.S. group that matches Zep, so it kind of hampers the example, eh.

^^well I've learned something more from the master....never knew Rundgren had anything to do with Meatloaf....and now that I've thought about it, before he acquired an almost infamous reputation, Meatloaf was writing very bombastic music with (as DB says) broadway semblences....I imagine he's been suggested for inclusion here a time or two (does he belong?  I dunno.....don't really care either, to me it's good, or at least not bad, music).

jimmy_row wrote: ^^well I've learned something more from the master....never knew Rundgren had anything to do with Meatloaf....and now that I've thought about it, before he acquired an almost infamous reputation, Meatloaf was writing very bombastic music with (as DB says) broadway semblences....I imagine he's been suggested for inclusion here a time or two (does he belong?  I dunno.....don't really care either, to me it's good, or at least not bad, music).

Dick Heath wrote: jimmy_row wrote: ^^well I've learned something more from the master....never knew Rundgren had anything to do with Meatloaf....and now that I've thought about it, before he acquired an almost infamous reputation, Meatloaf was writing very bombastic music with (as DB says) broadway semblences....I imagine he's been suggested for inclusion here a time or two (does he belong?  I dunno.....don't really care either, to me it's good, or at least not bad, music).   I thought Jim Steinman was responsible for the compositions - and remember Meatloaf's connection with the Rockie Horrow Show - which suddenly strikes as probably  the most successful (and popular) rock opera - which reinforces the reasons for  the theatrics.   I have a feeling the term 'stunt guitar ' may have been coined for Rundgren's guitarwork on the title track of Bat Out Of Hell, rather than Steve Vai's work under Zappa.

yes, correct about Steinman, I was under the impression that they both composed but Meatloaf was more of the performer; haven't seen Rockie Horror in it's entirety but I'll agree that it is one of the more succesful rock opera's and obviously very popular still today.  I'll have to check out more of the "stunt" guitar work you speak of, I was never aware that Rundgren was a particularly good musician...struck me as a 'songwriter' type (I've yet to get past Truestar and "Todd" in his catalogue").

Def Leppard were so impressed by Steinman that the hired him to produce Pyromania. Having wasted most of the advance having the studio carpets changed, someone finally told them that Todd Rundgren produce Bat out of Hell, not Steinman. The album was finally produced by Mutt Lange. However, Steinman did do a decent job on the Sisters of Mercy's Floodlands.

Edited by darqdean - September 28 2007 at 15:27

debrewguy wrote: darqdean wrote: Def Leppard were so impressed by Steinman that the hired him to produce Pyromania. Having wasted most of the advance having the studio carpets changed, someone finally told them that Todd Rundgren produce Bat out of Hell, not Steinman. The album was finally produced by Mutt Lange. However, Steinman did do a decent job on the Sisters of Mercy's Floodlands. I thought that Hysteria was the album where they tried working with Steinman. I have read some interesting quotes from both sides on that debacle. But in the end, Def Leppard did deliver the goods. The debate would be just how much Mutt Lange meant to them. Which still wouldn't mean a fig when listening to their albums.