Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge - Should Styx be considered as Prog?

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Should Styx be considered as Prog?

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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41347
Printed Date: February 11 2025 at 21:05
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Topic: Should Styx be considered as Prog?

Posted By: Rock Enro
Subject: Should Styx be considered as Prog?
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 17:58

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&Mytoken=F3D0105D-E7AE-4B34-9211FE61D6A096DF175798537 - http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&Mytoken=F3D0105D-E7AE-4B34-9211FE61D6A096DF175798537

Here's an interesting article in favor of them:

Replies:

Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 18:00

That link doesnt work....can you fix it please?

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 18:08

Are you talking about teh same STYX of The Grand Illusion and Domo Arigato Mr. Robotto?

Well, they are here as Prog Related and that 's the closest they can get to Prog.

Iván

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Posted By: Rock Enro
Date Posted: September 01 2007 at 21:55

Tony R wrote:

That link doesnt work....can you fix it please?

Are you sure? I'll try to fix it...The article classifies Styx as ProgPop...

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2007 at 00:29

Rock Enro wrote:

Tony R wrote:

That link doesnt work....can you fix it please?

Are you sure? I'll try to fix it...The article classifies Styx as ProgPop...

I hate that term Prog Pop, it's a natural contradiction, Prog Related is more accurate, being that bands as STYX blend mainstream (not exclusively POP) with some Prog elements.

You can check them here:

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=431 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=431

That was my first bio in Prog Archives

Iván

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Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 02:31

No, Styx are not prog-pop, they are only pop

Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: September 06 2007 at 12:53

I like the prog pop label. It's appropriate for bands that you can't accuse of selling out because they never quite made it in to begin with.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 06 2007 at 14:11

pero wrote:

No, Styx are not prog-pop, they are only pop

Have you heard their firstb three albums?

If you don't believe they are Prog, well I don't get what Prog is.

Iván

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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: September 06 2007 at 14:16

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

I like the prog pop label. It's appropriate for bands that you can't accuse of selling out because they never quite made it in to begin with.

Styx were huge in the USA. Paradise Theater got to number 1 in the main album chart. They are probably amongst the top 10 biggest-selling bands on this site...

Posted By: meinmatrix
Date Posted: September 06 2007 at 14:43

I think they could be called as Cock Fonkers unless Whistler objects. Shocked

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Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: September 07 2007 at 03:41

No way, Styx did "Mr. Robotto?" That song is awesomely annoying!

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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson

Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: September 07 2007 at 03:42

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 07 2007 at 06:58

IMHO, Styx should be considered prog. Far too often here, people judge the band on 'Babe', 'The Best Of Times' etc (all of which I personally hate; hardly anything the band recorded after 'Pieces Of Eight' does a thing for me). The same happens with Kansas; they hear the hits and think that they are just AOR.

From the debut through to 'The Grand Illusion' (their most progressive album), Styx had varying degrees of prog on their albums. There was also a heavy rock influence, too, of course. I personally thought most of their first few albums were quite poor to be honest (especially the debut) but they are prog albums, IMHO. People should listen to, say, tracks like 'Suite Madame Blue', 'The Grand Illusion' and 'Castle Walls', then call them a pop band, rather than those godawful ballads and pseudo novelty songs of later years.

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 07 2007 at 09:29

salmacis wrote:

IMHO, Styx should be considered prog. Far too often here, people judge the band on 'Babe', 'The Best Of Times' etc (all of which I personally hate; hardly anything the band recorded after 'Pieces Of Eight' does a thing for me). The same happens with Kansas; they hear the hits and think that they are just AOR.

I'm no expert on Styx, and they've never interested me much to be honest, but to state they're nothing than a pop band - on the strength of their later, AOR output - is akin to saying that Genesis are nothing but a pop band because they released "Invisible Touch" or "We Can't Dance". Perhaps some people should try to LISTEN to a band first before making such sweeping statements.

Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 22:17

I do not get why bands for adolescents like Styxx, ELO and Queen are considered more prog than adult music like Bowie or Hendrix. It is a matter of substance as oppossed to Spinal Tap like appearances.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 11 2007 at 02:42

Easy Money wrote:

I do not get why bands for adolescents like Styxx, ELO and Queen are considered more prog than adult music like Bowie or Hendrix. It is a matter of substance as oppossed to Spinal Tap like appearances.

Are you sure of what you are saying?

STYX, Queen and ELO are anything but teen or adolescent bands, their fanbase covered a wide range of ages and hardly most of them were teens.

Iván

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Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 12 2007 at 07:36

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

pero wrote:

No, Styx are not prog-pop, they are only pop

Have you heard their firstb three albums?

If you don't believe they are Prog, well I don't get what Prog is.

Iván

No I didn't . I had only "Grand illusions" and "Paradise theatre" as a vinyls and best of on CD.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 12 2007 at 14:04

pero wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

pero wrote:

No, Styx are not prog-pop, they are only pop

Have you heard their firstb three albums?

If you don't believe they are Prog, well I don't get what Prog is.

Iván

No I didn't . I had only "Grand illusions" and "Paradise theatre" as a vinyls and best of on CD.

Then Pero, how can you say ttheyb are exclusively a POP band?

You haven't heard:

Styx
Styx II
The Serpant is Rising

This first three are 80% or 90% Prog (If tthey were 100% they would be in a Prog Genre not in Prog Related), they even released Movement for a Common Man 5 years before ELP did it.

Neither you have heard:

Man of Miracles
Equinox
Crystakl Ball

This three albums are more mainstream oriented but still they keep a healthy balance between Prog ansd mainstream, even The Grabnd Illusion has really Prog tracks as Fooling Yourself.

You can't judge Styx exclusively in Come sail Away, Babe and Mr Robotto, that's like the guys who say "Hey Kansas was an AOR band" but they only heard "Dust in the Wind" and maybe "Point of Know Return" (The song, because Closet Chronicles, He Knew, Hopelessly Human, etc, are full Prog tracks).

Nobody can give a atetment as strong as "No, Styx are not prog-pop, they are only pop" unless he has heard a representative number of albums that cover all the eras of the band,mainly when this band is 35 years old and has changed radically during their long lasting career.

Iván

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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 12 2007 at 14:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

pero wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

pero wrote:

No, Styx are not prog-pop, they are only pop

Have you heard their firstb three albums?

If you don't believe they are Prog, well I don't get what Prog is.

Iván

No I didn't . I had only "Grand illusions" and "Paradise theatre" as a vinyls and best of on CD.

Then Pero, how can you say ttheyb are exclusively a POP band?

You haven't heard:

Styx
Styx II
The Serpant is Rising

This first three are 80% or 90% Prog (If tthey were 100% they would be in a Prog Genre not in Prog Related), they even released Movement for a Common Man 5 years before ELP did it.

Neither you have heard:

Man of Miracles
Equinox
Crystakl Ball

This three albums are more mainstream oriented but still they keep a healthy balance between Prog ansd mainstream, even The Grabnd Illusion has really Prog tracks as Fooling Yourself.

Iván

Don't forget Far Beyond These Castle Walls & Man in the Wilderness from Grand Illusion, Lord of the Rings from Pieces of Eight, and special mention of Suite Madame Blue on Equinox.
Too many times, popular bands are debased because some folks here exhibit a belief that commercial success somehow is not compatible with a progressive attitude or approach to music (see Rush, Dream Theater, Collins-era Genesis, 80s Yes, ELO,Pink FLoyd).

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 12 2007 at 22:56

Well, I'm perusing the forum here and might as well make a few enemies.

I've heard some of the early stuff -- I owned the first album but who knows where it is now. If we are to consider Styx as a prog band, based on the early albums, then surely they would have to rank amongst the worst. At least they became competent when they went AOR.

Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 03:14

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

pero wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

pero wrote:

No, Styx are not prog-pop, they are only pop

Have you heard their firstb three albums?

If you don't believe they are Prog, well I don't get what Prog is.

Iván

No I didn't . I had only "Grand illusions" and "Paradise theatre" as a vinyls and best of on CD.

Then Pero, how can you say ttheyb are exclusively a POP band?

You haven't heard:

Styx
Styx II
The Serpant is Rising

This first three are 80% or 90% Prog (If tthey were 100% they would be in a Prog Genre not in Prog Related), they even released Movement for a Common Man 5 years before ELP did it.

Neither you have heard:

Man of Miracles
Equinox
Crystakl Ball

This three albums are more mainstream oriented but still they keep a healthy balance between Prog ansd mainstream, even The Grabnd Illusion has really Prog tracks as Fooling Yourself.

Iván

Sorry I heart your feelings, I didn't know that you are so fond of Styx.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 11:47

pero wrote:

Sorry I heart your feelings, I didn't know that you are so fond of Styx.

No Pero, not particulary a fan,as a fact the album I like more is The Grand illusion, an album that is mainly non Prog, but you can't judge a book by the cover as you can't judge a 30 years career for one studio album and one "The Best of" that normally has the worst and/or the most commercial tracks.

Iván

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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 14:09

'The Grand Illusion' is still prog, IMHO, with the exception of 'Superstars' (this one is very Broadway and not to my tastes) and 'Miss America' (a decent enough slab of heavy rock). Even 'Come Sail Away' has a great keyboard mid section. It's after that album they lost any real of trace of prog, IMHO.

Their first 3 or 4 albums are prog, but I don't think they are particularly good prog. That's besides the point though, really.

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 14:26

salmacis wrote:

'The Grand Illusion' is still prog, IMHO, with the exception of 'Superstars' (this one is very Broadway and not to my tastes) and 'Miss America' (a decent enough slab of heavy rock). Even 'Come Sail Away' has a great keyboard mid section. It's after that album they lost any real of trace of prog, IMHO.

Their first 3 or 4 albums are prog, but I don't think they are particularly good prog. That's besides the point though, really.

Exactly!

ProgArchives aims to be a complete database of prog music, and that includes the bad together with the good. There are a lot of bands I dislike here, but I would never dream of saying they should be removed because I don't like them. And then, we should always be careful of passing judgment on bands or artists whose output we know only marginally.

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 19:35

Their first 3 or 4 albums are prog, but I don't think they are particularly good prog. That's besides the point though, really.

I agree with most that Grand Illusion is overall the best album, but they had some scattered moments of brilliance on the Wooden Nickel label (despite the fact that they were all but left in the dark). A Day is an indication of what they could've done had Dennis and JC learned to combine their styles more often and Father OSA hints at the upbeat hard rock sound they would develop in the future but with very clear progressive leanings. The title track from A Man of Miracles is great as well, edged out in pomposity only by ELP themselves.

On the whole, I believe Styx catch too much flack for the huge missteps they made, while most passer-by's ignore the quality progressive and hard rock material they made in their prime.

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 19:44

Their first 3 or 4 albums are prog, but I don't think they are particularly good prog. That's besides the point though, really.

the question thus needs to be asked..... is that enough to be classified HERE in a prog category. Being prog fans... if one wanted to hear some prog Styx... the category Prog Related says nothing about their prog music. In my mind there is a 3 or 4 album line in the sand. Not proposing their moving (so don't get up in arms people).... but asking you James.. what do you think. I raised this issue some time back in another thread.. and typically... got little to no response.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: The Rock
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 22:12

Most of their albums up to ''Pieces of eight'' were prog IMHO.

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What's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna come out of my soul."Skip Prokop"

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 00:28

Most of theior albums ubtil "The Grand Illusion" were MAINLY Prog, but IMHO not completely, the mainstream element, call it Rock, AOR or POP depending on the era, was always present.

So I believe Prog Related is more than OK

Iván

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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 00:38

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Most of theior albums ubtil "The Grand Illusion" were MAINLY Prog, but IMHO not completely, the mainstream element, call it Rock, AOR or POP depending on the era, was always present.

So I believe Prog Related is more than OK

Iván

I have two questions:

1.- What's AOR?
2.- Why not "Prog related between songs"?

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¡Beware of the Bee!

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 01:45

cuncuna wrote:

I have two questions:

1.- What's AOR? Album Oriented Rock, a term used to describe a radio format not based in hit singles, but it's mainly used to describe a bland evolution of Rock in the late 70's from which Styx is precisely a symbol, you can add Boston and many others to this list, it's also known by others as Adult Oriented Rock, but this description even when widely used is not accurate.

2.- Why not "Prog related between songs"? Don't get your question, unless you want to ask the Adms to create a new category.

STYX was Prog Related during all their career, sometimes closer without ever being pure Prog and others really far.

They also did some embarrassing tracks as Mr. Robotto or Babe, but even some 100% Prog bands they also did, so I don't believe that disqualifies them.

Iván

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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 05:02

micky wrote:

Their first 3 or 4 albums are prog, but I don't think they are particularly good prog. That's besides the point though, really.

Honestly, Micky, I wouldn't blow a gasket if they stayed in 'prog related' but I do feel that 'crossover prog' might be a good fit. I think the first three or four albums are predominantly prog, and 'Equinox' and 'The Grand Illusion' are too, IMHO. However, most of their albums had some by-the-numbers boogie (same with Kansas, though Kansas were more prog in the first place, IMHO) as well, which throws people a bit. There's a 13 minute 'Movement For The Common Man' on their debut album, but I remember it being pretty poor. 'Styx II' was much better, I seem to recall. 'Man Of Miracles' was decent enough too. But 'The Grand Illusion' is their finest work, IMHO, and I think 80% of it is fairly prog (the main offender there is the Broadway-esque 'Superstars').

I think 'Pieces Of Eight' is a good album but is it prog? No, it's a heavy rock album, IMHO. Certainly, hardly anything the band recorded after that comes close- 'Paradise Theatre' might be a concept album but a lot of it is closer to Barry Manilow than prog, IMHO.

Looking at who else is in 'crossover prog' at the moment, I do think Styx could fit in there; I think they had a similar approach to bands like Argent, Supertramp or The Moody Blues in that their music had radio-friendly aspects but prog ones too. I'm not about to take seriously broad statements like 'Styx are a pop band' which just hint that certain people have not done the research, IMHO. The same people usually say the same things about Kansas, as Ivan has already pointed out.

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 15:58

salmacis wrote:

great post....

I can see them there as well.. and you are right... people love to shoot their mouths off at things they know little to nothing about.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 16:27

There is so much wrong with this post.

First of all, bands for adolescents vs. bands for adults. We aren't talking about groups that specifically market themselves to an audience here, like the Backstreet Boys or the Spice Girls. If we were, you could make the case that Bowie and Queen were the two bands that specifically went for adolescents here.

Secondly, Hendrix, while a fine musician who influenced just about every guitarist to come after him, has nothing to do with prog.

Styx did a handful of albums that really captured the "symphonic" sound of prog. Depending on how strict you are, you could make an argument that they are prog.

I don't understand why Queen is considered prog. Bohemian Rhapsody isn't enough credentials for me.

Bowie's experiments aren't enough for me to consider him prog either.

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 18:15

Ghost Rider wrote:

Their first 3 or 4 albums are prog, but I don't think they are particularly good prog. That's besides the point though, really.

Exactly!

So is that to say that we can't delete the entire Krautrock genre ? Wink

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 18:29

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Debrewguy starts with this overly patronizing comment - YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT ? Do you remember Glam ? Maybe you could tell me who Bowie's audience was when he was playing mr androgenous (sorry for the mispelling) rock star ? Sure as heck wasn't my 32 year old dad ! Oh, and while I'm at it, please define "substance". Then explain why that would matter the slightest fig when it comes to another person's enjoyment of music. As opposed to Snobby elitist like posturing.

There is so much wrong with this post.

Secondly, Hendrix, while a fine musician who influenced just about every guitarist to come after him, has nothing to do with prog.
DB vacillates - He would be a hard case to argue for inclusion here. The best description for his music that I've read is Blues from Mars.

ELO does have it's roots in the progressive movement., but moved decisively away from it very early in their career. Anything after "On The Third Day" (except for a track or two off "El Dorado") by ELO is not prog.
Db wonders - Many of our prog pantheon have moved on from their original outright prog output. Crimson went Talking Heads new wave, Genesis acquired white soul, Yes became an example of well made, well thought out 80s rock, Rush indulged their "romantic" interests, and mostly , Neo pissed off some old proggers by daring to include new sounds & styles in their version or adaptation of old prog stylings.

Styx did a handful of albums that really captured the "symphonic" sound of prog. Depending on how strict you are, you could make an argument that they are prog.
Db adds - see the above groups. If you last long enough, chances are your sound & style change over time.

I don't understand why Queen is considered prog. Bohemian Rhapsody isn't enough credentials for me.
Db wishes he could summon a convincing argument, but agrees that while their attitude makes them "confreres" to the prog scene in that they mostly strove to put out music that was different , the music itself was not prog. Although the new sub-genre eclectic prog might hold a place for them. (note - The Prophet's Song, Innuendo, In the Lap of the Gods and a few more do make for some consideration as prog)

Bowie's experiments aren't enough for me to consider him prog either.

Db - agreed, his musical mindset compares to many prog acts, but not his actual music.

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 00:06

debrewguy wrote:

Debrewguy starts with this overly patronizing comment - YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT ? Do you remember Glam ? Maybe you could tell me who Bowie's audience was when he was playing mr androgenous (sorry for the mispelling) rock star ? Sure as heck wasn't my 32 year old dad ! Oh, and while I'm at it, please define "substance". Then explain why that would matter the slightest fig when it comes to another person's enjoyment of music. As opposed to Snobby elitist like posturing.

This is an interesting issue, in the late 60's Rock was a kids issue , because adults were not interested in rock, as a fact it was still a taboo, a thing of hippies and the adults were much more conservative and many of them grew with Sinatra and the most adventurous young adults grew with Pat Boone, Elvis or early Beatles, a guy dressed as an androginous space man could be an aberration for them..

Even Bowie was born in 1947, so he was in his early 20's when he reached the peak, so his music as most of Rock was a thing of kids in their teens and very early 20's.

With the birth of Prog, things changed a bit, most of the fans were University students who had grown with Rock and stopped to be just a teen's issue

By 1975 when Queen reached their peak with A Night at the Opera young adults in their early 30's were already Rock fans, so Queen was accepted by an older audience.

Probably in 1972 adults would had hardly accepted a guy with a golden cape and another one dressed as a flower dancing along the stage, but today you find people in their 50's listening and accepting that music, this same adults listen Bowie today and never cared with their androginous looks.

So what was young people's music in the 60's is adult music today and the comparison of your or my father is not accurate.

I don't believe Bowie was ever targeted for adolescents, it's just the fact that adults were not ready to accept him, while Queen ffrom the start was music for all ages.

Iván

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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:17

Um, those of us who were prog fans in 1972 had nothing but disdain for Bowie and everything about him and his ilk. That's why we listened to prog! Anyone who had to glam up to be recognized clearly had no musical talent. To Bowie's credit, he eventually grew beyond that, but in the early '70's he only registered on the radar as something to be ridiculed.

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:26

jammun wrote:

call me odd.... but your post smells to high heaven..

those things and feelings you speak of... are products of the music scene today.. where musical genres are marketed to certain groups of people..

in the early 70's.... there was no ..us vs. them... black people listened to rock... whites to funk... there was no ridiculing... it was only music....

reminds me in a way of the old saying... if you remember it THAT well... you weren't there... LOL

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:35

jammun wrote:

y'know, Peter Gabriel (both in and out of Genesis) in all his costume-wearing glory was and is considered 'glam' by many people who just see the photos. Also perhaps your disdain for Bowie had partly to do with being younger at the time.. i know I didn't like him when I was in my teens and twenties. But really, the issue is not which prog listeners didn't like or listen to Bowie, but rather can Bowie be considered a rock artist that progressed the form enough to be considered progressive rock, 'Art rock', or Crossover prog.

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:39

Atavachron wrote:

jammun wrote:

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:47

Ghost Rider wrote:

Their first 3 or 4 albums are prog, but I don't think they are particularly good prog. That's besides the point though, really.

Exactly!

that's really cool... I've been expecting any music website to start a "bad" cathegory. "Bad Prog" sounds like a fun label to develope... just imagine how many years it'll take to debate wich bands belong there... Tongue

Edit: uhm... Ermm

¡¡¡COFF COFF COFF DREAM THEATECOFF COFF!!!...

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¡Beware of the Bee!

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:51

I'd take the new 'bad prog' sub-genre anyday hahhaha...

first group to be moved into it ... VDGG LOL

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:51

with Dream Theater being a close 2nd hahah

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:53

micky wrote:

I'd take the new 'bad prog' sub-genre anyday hahhaha...

first group to be moved into it ... VDGG LOL

* piano stops-- saloon goes silent *

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:59

Atavachron wrote:

micky wrote:

I'd take the new 'bad prog' sub-genre anyday hahhaha...

first group to be moved into it ... VDGG LOL

* piano stops-- saloon goes silent *

* micky hides behind the bar* LOL

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:30

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

DB adds - From some of the things I remember reading, Sinatra's young heartthrob days had a large contingent of "young" people. They did keep a preference for the same type of music through the years. The same way that some folks loved Elvis, but by the time that the Beatles came around, they were already "old" enough to wonder what all the fuss was about.

Even Bowie was born in 1947, so he was in his early 20's when he reached the peak, so his music as most of Rock was a thing of kids in their teens and very early 20's.

With the birth of Prog, things changed a bit, most of the fans were University students who had grown with Rock and stopped to be just a teen's issue
DB questions - I think you're right as far as the stereotypical prog fan. But I also remember Creem & Circus magazines from the mid to late 70s that had prog acts as an equal part of their coverage. Heck , I recall seeing Tull, Strawbs, Gentle Giant & Genesis albums in the readers' poll of the top releases in more than one issue. And I don't think these mags were aimed at the University crew.
I have stated before that for most of the 70s, a lot or Rock music fans were into bands, not genres. So my collection when I was 16, included Close to the Edge & Billy Joel's The Stranger, along with Aqualung, some Kiss & Zep and Rush & Strawbs.

By 1975 when Queen reached their peak with A Night at the Opera young adults in their early 30's were already Rock fans, so Queen was accepted by an older audience.

So what was young people's music in the 60's is adult music today and the comparison of your or my father is not accurate.

I don't believe Bowie was ever targeted for adolescents, it's just the fact that adults were not ready to accept him, while Queen ffrom the start was music for all ages.

DB surmises - Rock music, since its' inception, has usually been the province of youth. Whether this means teenagers, college kids, young adults or whatever, it still is rare that popular music (no, not necessarily top 40, just one with a good following like many of our 70s prog idols) is aimed at the older crowd. So while I am still open to new music, I don't hear too much that is aimed specifically at my old ears (45 years as of August). Or rather, I should say music that may be aimed at my age group, but that I have no interest in (new country, light jazz, mainstream "pop", etc )
But after all, I read that this or that act puts out music that a certain type of person may like, not a certain age group; although there are obviously genres that attract a very specific demographic - boy bands, tweenies, emo pop punk ...

Iván

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:39

No.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 24 2007 at 23:28

debrewguy wrote:

I don't disagree with your perspective totally, but even you must recognize that today adults (I'm 42 since August) clearly listens more Rock than in the late 60's and early 70's.

Also remember that The Beatles wasn't everything, the Hippie movement was not accepted by most adults, it was a sign of rebellion and promiscuos sex and Rock was identified with the flower kids.

DB questions - I think you're right as far as the stereotypical prog fan. But I also remember Creem & Circus magazines from the mid to late 70s that had prog acts as an equal part of their coverage. Heck , I recall seeing Tull, Strawbs, Gentle Giant & Genesis albums in the readers' poll of the top releases in more than one issue. And I don't think these mags were aimed at the University crew.

I believe they had to mention them because they were an important minority, of course Progg was not exclusively music dfor University styudents, but a big percentage of their audience was there, Genesis for example survived making University tours.

I have stated before that for most of the 70s, a lot or Rock music fans were into bands, not genres. So my collection when I was 16, included Close to the Edge & Billy Joel's The Stranger, along with Aqualung, some Kiss & Zep and Rush & Strawbs.

The 70's were much simpler than this days, there was Rock (As a big unmbrella that covered Classic Rock, Prog, Psychedelia and Related genres) even in the world of Prog it was simpler, there were practically no sub-genres which started to be widely used with the birth of Neo Prog.

DB surmises - Rock music, since its' inception, has usually been the province of youth. Whether this means teenagers, college kids, young adults or whatever, it still is rare that popular music (no, not necessarily top 40, just one with a good following like many of our 70s prog idols) is aimed at the older crowd.

Most of today's music is not aimed for every age, the target are kids who will buy anything that their favorite DJ says is good.

But if you go to any Classic Rock or Prog concert, you will find people even in their late 50's, sonething that didn't happened in the 60's.

So while I am still open to new music, I don't hear too much that is aimed specifically at my old ears (45 years as of August). Or rather, I should say music that may be aimed at my age group, but that I have no interest in (new country, light jazz, mainstream "pop", etc )

I believe most of us are not interested.

But after all, I read that this or that act puts out music that a certain type of person may like, not a certain age group; although there are obviously genres that attract a very specific demographic - boy bands, tweenies, emo pop punk ...

That's the point, you very rarely will see a 30 years old guy listening Britney or N'Sync, but for sure you will see people in their 30's on a Radiohead or U2 concert, not to talk about Prog, in a Tull concert here in Lima, I had at my side a guy witth a Ian like beard who should be in his late 50's (at least) smoking 5 of 6 huge joints and I was one of the youngest in the crowd..

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 06:23

micky wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

micky wrote:

I'd take the new 'bad prog' sub-genre anyday hahhaha...

first group to be moved into it ... VDGG LOL

* piano stops-- saloon goes silent *

* micky hides behind the bar* LOL

* dean primes heat seaking missile and loads it into the VdGG dirigible *

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What?

Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 19:19

micky wrote:

jammun wrote:

OK, I could have perhaps stated it better, and I don't remember it all that well

That being said, back when i was an 18 year old college student I do remember that those of us who were listening to ELP, Yes, KC, and others had a disdain for Bowie, Alice Cooper, and others who, in our opinion, were more interested in theatricality than music. There were others who were decidedly in the opposite camp.

You can only imagine our pain when we saw Emerson's rotating-grand piano theatrics during the Brain Salad tour.

That being said, I eventually learned to enjoy Bowie (though not Alice Cooper), particularly when Eno and Fripp were in the mix.

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 19:23

jammun wrote:

micky wrote:

jammun wrote:

OK, I could have perhaps stated it better, and I don't remember it all that well

You can only imagine our pain when we saw Emerson's rotating-grand piano theatrics during the Brain Salad tour.

That being said, I eventually learned to enjoy Bowie (though not Alice Cooper), particularly when Eno and Fripp were in the mix.

hahahhahah. I envy your pain brother Wink

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Thyme Traveler
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 01:39

jammun wrote:

Well, I'm perusing the forum here and might as well make a few enemies.

Styx's Wooden Nickel albums were prog... but were they good prog ? Mediocre at best.

I've always like Ivan's review of Styx, especially this:

"...which the band achieve some financial success and show the sound they pretended to create."

That pretty much sums it up. While bands like ELP were pretentious, they at least, arguably had a reason to be. Styx was pretentiousness without the juevos to back it up.

Ironically, it was one of the few non-prog moments(and better songs) from their early years which got them a big A & M contract. Without "Lady" this thread would never be here.

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Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions.

What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum.

Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 02:15

If you were into music in the early 70s, and buying records week by week looking for innovative rock and jazz from bands that were breaking new boundries with each new output, you would not have been suprised with Styxx's eventual musical direction. No one I knew back then ever considered them to be "progressive". They were copy cats who were following what was a brief trend of popularity for so-called progressive rock.

Posted By: Nipsey88
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 02:20

Yes, Styx are prog enough to be considered prog related...

that still doesn't make it right.

I bought Paradise Theater when it came out when I was 10...by age 11 I bought Moving Pictures and gave the Styx record to my younger sister...she wasn't having it either Ermm

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http://www.last.fm/user/Nipsey88/?chartstyle=myspace02" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 02:33

Easy Money wrote:

If you were into music in the early 70s, and buying records week by week looking for innovative rock and jazz from bands that were breaking new boundries with each new output, you would not have been suprised with Styxx's eventual musical direction. No one I knew back then ever considered them to be "progressive". They were copy cats who were following what was a brief trend of popularity for so-called progressive rock.

I agree that in the 70's few people from the Prog communitty considered them Prog but they were and something STYX never was is copycats, they were quite original, their sound was unique, they were not trying to clone Yes, Genesis or anybody, they were being themselves, for good or bad.

Few bands had such a powerful vocal work with 4 members that could take the lead vocals and probably the best chorus after Queen, they were unique from the start.

The Prog era didn't brought them popularity, John Curulewsky left and Denis De Young took control of the band, they became more POP or AOR oriented but still they were original, nobody achived such pomposity in mainstream tracks as Crystal Ball or Come Sail Away.

BTW: If they were copy cats searchibng for popularity...they would had chosen other genre, remember they were from USA and in the early 70's Prog wasn't even remotely popular in this side of the Atlantic ocean.

Iván

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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 03:08

I am afraid some people here mistake being good for being prog. The question isn't, "did Styx release GOOD prog albums?", but rather, "Did they release ANY prog albums?" - which of course they did.

If they were an obscure band from Kazakhstan, no one would discuss the quality of their output, even if it was the worst kind of prog record you can think of. Unfortunately, they are a relatively high-profile band, so everybody thinks it's worth taking a shot at them. And this goes for ANY high-profile band included in PA.

Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 03:23

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Few bands had such a powerful vocal work with 4 members that could take the lead vocals and probably the best chorus after Queen, they were unique from the start.

The Prog era didn't brought them popularity, John Curulewsky left and James De Young took control of the band, they became more POP or AOR oriented but still they were original, nobody achived such pomposity in mainstream tracks as Crystal Ball or Come Sail Away.

Iván

Interesting point, I was just curious if you knew where John Curulewsky ended up in his musical career. I didn't know anyone split the the band that early.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 13:05

Easy Money wrote:

Interesting point, I was just curious if you knew where John Curulewsky ended up in his musical career. I didn't know anyone split the the band that early.

Thanks.

About John Curulewski, he left Proffesional music after "Equinox", he participated in Styx, Styx II, The Serpent Is Rising, Man of Miracles, and Equinox.

He wanted to spend more time with his family so he started to teach guitar at "The Music Shop" in Illinois but died very young in 1988 of a sudden brain aneurism.

He was the man who pushed Styx towards Prog, contrary to what people believe, his replacement Tommy Shaw was also Prog oriented but in those days he was the newbie and Dennis De Young (The most POP oriented Styx member and author of Babe or Mr Robotto) took control of the band, but Tommy still managed to balance the things a bit with some great songs as "Fooling Yourself".

You should get the last DVD (STYX and the Contemporary Youth Orchestra) where Dennis is no longer member of the band. he is replaced by a guy named Gowan who plays excellent keyboards and does a decent singing, because of this they don't play Come Sail Away, Mr Robotto or De Young's tracks to avoid paying royalties and the music is spectacular.

Iván

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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 13:19

Thanks for the info, that is unfortunate about Mr Curulewski. He was wise to escape the music biz though.

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 14:54

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

Interesting point, I was just curious if you knew where John Curulewsky ended up in his musical career. I didn't know anyone split the the band that early.

Thanks.

About John Curulewski, he left Proffesional music after "Equinox", he participated in Styx, Styx II, The Serpent Is Rising, Man of Miracles, and Equinox.

He wanted to spend more time with his family so he started to teach guitar at "The Music Shop" in Illinois but died very young in 1988 of a sudden brain aneurism.

Iván

I don't think I'd say that DDY was the most POP oriented, especially before The Grand Illusion - he contributed the most pompous, quasi-prog of all the members. Curelewski certainly played a role in their more eclectic early sound, but it was DeYoung who wrote most of the progressive songs. IMO, it was the entrance of Tommy Shaw that slowly turned them into an awful AOR band....Dennis and Tommy regressed into a competition over who could write more popular songs (it just so happened that Tommy's weren't nearly as bad as Dennis', so people around here pick on Dennis more). But in the end, I can forgive Dennis for Babe and Mr. Roboto because he wrote songs like Suite Madame Blue, Castle Walls, Father OSA, This Old Man, Queen of Spades, Earl of Roseland, Evil Eyes, Jonas Psalter, etc... The main difference is in the way his style interacted with John C vs. Shaw...Shaw had more of a pretty-boy image that Dennis tried to compete with, driving the band down that horrible road.

But anyway, my point is, don't be so hard on DDY - he was the leader of the band and in the early years, the most progressive minded.

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:45

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Few bands had such a powerful vocal work with 4 members that could take the lead vocals and probably the best chorus after Queen, they were unique from the start.

Iván

Good point, Ivan. I remember Rolling Stone (that bible of pretentious rock criticism) making a sarcastic remark about Styx & Kansas just trying to be the American Yes (?????????????). This was before Grand Illusion & Leftoverture.
For those who choose to judge Styx on their later output, they would be well advised to consider that most of their prog idols updated & streamlined their sound as they went along. Not many became as openly commercial as Styx. But to ascribe lucre as the ONLY motivation just shows the elitist mentality that sometimes takes over some people's thinking. It is POSSIBLE that the members of Styx truly wanted to play the music they put out after Grand Illusion, and enjoyed it. Just watch the Las Vegas like DVD that DeYoung put out and ask yourself if he couldn't have figured that he could make more money with Styx than solo. Maybe that's the music he wants to play now. And to be truthful, there are surely prog bands out there who compose & play prog knowing full well that is the only way they can make a career , i.e. it's a job that's better than most. We just don't hear that side too often, nor venture to sl*g these "artistes" who play our enlightened music. Heck, I read a recent interview with Ian Anderson who mentions that he's not all that crazy about playing loud music -
"Talking to Acoustic magazine, he said, "I never really liked rock or loud music very much."

Excuse me, but WHAT?!

"Very much" is the qualifier, he said, "I like it a little bit. I like being loud for a little while and I like listening to loud music for a little while," explaining that he like many British rockers who went to art school instead of music school were into American blues. He never cared for Elvis or experienced the thrill of blowing away his audience with a flute through a stack o' Marshalls.

Don't worry. There are tunes he won't do anymore, but Aqualung isn't among them."

Yet, many of the big Tull Lps were not quite quiet were they ?

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 22:53

jimmy_row wrote:

I don't think I'd say that DDY was the most POP oriented, especially before The Grand Illusion - he contributed the most pompous, quasi-prog of all the members.

Yes I agree he is pompous but closer to mainstream, he even worked on Broadway creating musicals if I'm not wrong, it's true all had some simpathy for Prog, but the characters were clearly marked:

Dennis de Young had some greast tracks but had a lot of pop from the start (even with Curulewsli), if not look at "Lady", by far the worst and poppiest song from STYX 2 or later their first hit Loerley, also by De Young in Eequinox,

Curelewski certainly played a role in their more eclectic early sound, but it was DeYoung who wrote most of the progressive songs. IMO, it was the entrance of Tommy Shaw that slowly turned them into an awful AOR band....Dennis and Tommy regressed into a competition over who could write more popular songs (it just so happened that Tommy's weren't nearly as bad as Dennis', so people around here pick on Dennis more).

Tommy is Proghead (a light one) but also has a southern, black and country music influence, remember he's from Montgomery Alabhama.

But in the end, I can forgive Dennis for Babe and Mr. Roboto because he wrote songs like Suite Madame Blue, Castle Walls, Father OSA, This Old Man, Queen of Spades, Earl of Roseland, Evil Eyes, Jonas Psalter, etc...

I'm not sure if by that point there was a main composerm, Ithought Dennis was, but after checking, the things are pretty even between De Young (Don't mistake with the songs written by Young that also were a lot) and Curulewski

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:hnftxx8jldte - Movement for the Common Man: Children of the Land/Street ... DeYoung, Ryan, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:jnftxx8jldte - Right Away Frank

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:knftxx8jldte - What Has Come Between Us Gaddis

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:0nftxx8jldte - Best Thing DeYoung, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:anftxx8jldte - Quick Is the Beat of My Heart Mark

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wnftxx8jldte - After You Leave Me Clinton

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:kvfrxxuald6e - You Need Love DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:0vfrxxuald6e - Lady DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:avfrxxuald6e - A Day Curulewski

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wvfrxxuald6e - You Better Ask Curulewski

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:3vftxxuald6e - Little Fugue in "G" Bach

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:dvftxxuald6e - Father O.S.A. DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:fvftxxuald6e - Earl of Roseland DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:gvftxxuald6e - I'm Gonna Make You Feel It DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:jcfuxqtjldae - Witch Wolf Brandle, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:kcfuxqtjldae - The Grove of Eglantine DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:0cfuxqtjldae - Young Man Young, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:acfuxqtjldae - As Bad as This Curulewski

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wcfuxqtjldae - Winner Take All DeYoung, Lofrano

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:3cfixqtjldae - 22 Years Curulewski

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:dcfixqtjldae - Jonas Psalter DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:fcfixqtjldae - The Serpent Is Rising Curulewski, Lofrano

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:gcfixqtjldae - Krakatoa Curulewski

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:hcfixqtjldae - Hallelujah Chorus Handel

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:3bfexq90ldae - Rock & Roll Feeling Curulewski, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:dbfexq90ldae - Havin' a Ball Curulewski, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:fbfexq90ldae - Golden Lark DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:gbfexq90ldae - A Song for Suzanne DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:hbfexq90ldae - A Man Like Me Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:jbfexq90ldae - Lies Charles, Randell

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:kbfexq90ldae - Evil Eyes DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:0bfexq90ldae - Southern Woman Brandle, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:abfexq90ldae - Christopher, Mr. Christopher DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wbfexq90ldae - Man of Miracles Brandle, DeYoung, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:kzftxqw0ldje - Light Up DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:0zftxqw0ldje - Lorelei DeYoung, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:azftxqw0ldje - Mother Dear Styx

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wzftxqw0ldje - Lonely Child Styx

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:3zfyxqw0ldje - Midnight Ride Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:dzfyxqw0ldje - Born for Adventure Styx

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:fzfyxqw0ldje - Prelude 12 Curulewski

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:gzfyxqw0ldje - Suite Madame Blue DeYoung

There were two main composers (De Young and Curulewski) plus a third one more on the vein of Classic Rock (James Young).

The main difference is in the way his style interacted with John C vs. Shaw...Shaw had more of a pretty-boy image that Dennis tried to compete with, driving the band down that horrible road.

I believe the interaction between De Young and Shaw was the same as with Curulewski, lets take The Grand Illusion, their peak.

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wvfqxx9sld6e - The Grand Illusion DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:3vfwxx9sld6e - Fooling Yourself (The Angry Young Man) Shaw

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:dvfwxx9sld6e - Superstars DeYoung, Shaw, Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:fvfwxx9sld6e - Come Sail Away DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:gvfwxx9sld6e - Miss America Young

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:hvfwxx9sld6e - Man in the Wilderness Shaw

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:jvfwxx9sld6e - Castle Walls DeYoung

http://wm04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:kvfwxx9sld6e - The Grand Finale DeYoung, Shaw, Young

There are only three Prog Related tracks. Fooling Yourself, Man in the Wildernes and Castle Walls, two by Shaw and one by Dennis.

On the other hand, the poppiest tracks "The Grand Illusion" and "Come Sail Away" are by De Young, while Shaw doesn't have a weak track.

But anyway, my point is, don't be so hard on DDY - he was the leader of the band and in the early years, the most progressive minded.

I honestly don't believe DDY was the most prog minded member of STYX, he made some of the best, but he's responsible for the worst ones also.

I believe today with Lawrence Gowan replacing De Young and Shaw sharing the lead with JY and even Todd Sucherman who IMO is the best drummer STYX ever had. the band sounds better than ever.

Iván

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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 01:20

well I'll just have to respectfully disagree before we have another "rainbow psychadelic thread"

but a few points: notice on the songwriter credits, a majority of the most progressive tracks were written by DDY (additionally, some credits are missing on there....Dennis co-wrote 22 Years and was responsible for Born for Adventure....JC wrote Mother Dear).

Shaw did have a touch of southern rock influence (albeit contrived....not anything like Skynyrd or Little Feat) but my point was that eventually his image helped lead Styx down a different path....Renegade and Blue Collar Man, although good songs, were huge hits with a very commercial sound, nothing like some of the tunes you claim to be "poppish" - Come Sail Away one of the poppiest on The Grand Illusion? It's one of the longest, most developed tracks! And even the title track, while reserving an AOR type sound, still maintains an element of bombast that Shaw's contributions didn't have.

I think the biggest difference between Curelewski and Shaw is that JC was more willing to experiment and "goof around" even if it wasn't always such a good thing (Plexiglass Toilet, You Better Ask) whereas Shaw had a conventional pop-rock style that the band seldom deviated from once he joined.

btw, you say things were "pretty even" between DDY and JC....I'll have to disagree there too - JC was usually allowed 1 to 2 songs per album, 3 at the very most (Serpent....Krakatoa doesn't count, that one is a traditional poem) whereas Dennis controlled the majority of the output and even the songs he didn't have credit on, he made considerable contributions to (ie. the middle sections of Lonely Child and Mother Dear...I believe were wrtten by DDY).

Anyway, from the first 5 albums (counting any writing credits as "1"):

DeYoung: 21

Young: 12

Curelewski: 11

Darnit I've done it again....oh well I suppose I'll learn from it, I mean stay away from threads were Ivan is lurking

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 01:26

Intalked about songs written by a single artist, but that's secondary.

In any case STYX was always a band that had many composers, you didn't found that in bands like Genesis for example, most of the lyrics were wriotten by Peter, most of the music was wtritten by Tony.

I like both eras, I find prettyy good things in both until Kilroy Was Here.

Iván

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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 01:34

Been thinking about this and:

ejhm... Only if "Should" means "not me", "Styx" means "Styx sucks b“lls (bills) jupiter size", "be" means "erase their discography ", "considered" means "destroyed", "as" means "blasted into space" and "prog" means "musician loosing it".

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¡Beware of the Bee!

Posted By: Asyte2c00
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 02:01

Their first two recordings are prog

Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 06:25

debrewguy wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Few bands had such a powerful vocal work with 4 members that could take the lead vocals and probably the best chorus after Queen, they were unique from the start.

Iván

Excuse me, but WHAT?!

Don't worry. There are tunes he won't do anymore, but Aqualung isn't among them."

Yet, many of the big Tull Lps were not quite quiet were they ?

I also remember Melody Maker having a full centre page spread on new rock in the USA, in the period 1976-8?. The MM journalist, having first criticised America for not keeping up with the UK wrt non-AOR (typical blinkered/slanted music journalism), then suggested a handful of bandsdoing the business, including:

Mahogany Rush

Rush (sic)

Kansas

Meatloaf

Styx

There was no mention about these bands being prog clones, rather giving a new edge to rock (by default ,prog rock).

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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 11:10

^^I have to admit I laughed a bit when I saw Meatloaf on there; Kansas is way ahead of the other bands there (of course Rush doesn't count....USA????wff) but I agree - they definately never tried to be "prog-clones", still, many will always write off mid-70's American bands because they weren't in the same ballpark as Yes and ELP.

Most people who think that Styx shouldn't be here (I don't care if they were "good" or not) haven't even listened to anything other than radio hits: Babe, Roboto, Best of Times, etc.....so then why don't we judge Yes on 90125?

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 12:46

jimmy_row wrote:

^^I have to admit I laughed a bit when I saw Meatloaf on there; Kansas is way ahead of the other bands there (of course Rush doesn't count....USA????wff) but I agree - they definately never tried to be "prog-clones", still, many will always write off mid-70's American bands because they weren't in the same ballpark as Yes and ELP.

Re : Meatloaf - I think that the article would have been written after the first album. There are parts that are more "composed" than most pop music, such as the Bat out of Hell overture and what not. I remember some reviews using words like operatic to describe the album's style.
You are right in regards to American bands being slighted for perceived shortcomings when it comes to their progginess. But then, U.S. hard rock & metal bands used to subjected to the same sl*gging. The american style was supposedly more meat & potatoes basic, more Broadway in presentation; while the British were more flash , more esoteric or high minded , & music hall being an influence.
OF course, to the music fan, whatever the influences or music styles combined don't matter. The end result is what I'm hearing. So Zep might have their folk influences such as Jansch, but an American band might carry forward more of the rockabilly & country sounds that they were more exposed to. Unfortunately, I can't come up with a U.S. group that matches Zep, so it kind of hampers the example, eh.

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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 12:56

I seem to remember the article coming out immediately before Bat Out Of Hell took off over here - and don't forget Todd Rundgren's production and musical contribution was often the talking point then.

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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 22:25

^^well I've learned something more from the master....never knew Rundgren had anything to do with Meatloaf....and now that I've thought about it, before he acquired an almost infamous reputation, Meatloaf was writing very bombastic music with (as DB says) broadway semblences....I imagine he's been suggested for inclusion here a time or two (does he belong? I dunno.....don't really care either, to me it's good, or at least not bad, music).

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 22:37

debrewguy wrote:

Re : Meatloaf - I think that the article would have been written after the first album. There are parts that are more "composed" than most pop music, such as the Bat out of Hell overture and what not. I remember some reviews using words like operatic to describe the album's style.
You are right in regards to American bands being slighted for perceived shortcomings when it comes to their progginess. But then, U.S. hard rock & metal bands used to subjected to the same sl*gging. The american style was supposedly more meat & potatoes basic, more Broadway in presentation; while the British were more flash , more esoteric or high minded , & music hall being an influence.
OF course, to the music fan, whatever the influences or music styles combined don't matter. The end result is what I'm hearing. So Zep might have their folk influences such as Jansch, but an American band might carry forward more of the rockabilly & country sounds that they were more exposed to. Unfortunately, I can't come up with a U.S. group that matches Zep, so it kind of hampers the example, eh.

oooh oooh I know, THE DEAD (okay, I don't know about "matching" LZ, but they fit your example).

I agree with what you're saying, to a large extent American acts (including Canadians ie BTO weren't held on the same level because of the different geographical influences: be it country or americana or rockabilly....soul....r & b, you name it. Whereas Zep were ripping of Bert Jansch (aside from Willy Dixon and many other bluesman) a band like the Dead would be influenced by folk music (but mostly 20th century stuff) from this side of the pond, especially bluegrass and 1920's jug-band. But at the same time, simpler, more song-oriented artists reached critical acclaim and more or less "got away" with such influences (ie Dylan).

I do think that after some time American rock fell considerably behind British (some exceptions of course)....by the mid 70's the airwaves were dominated by Aerosmith, Kiss, etc...no where near the level of Judas Priest, AC/DC, Rainbow, Purple, etc..

Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 28 2007 at 12:25

jimmy_row wrote:

I thought Jim Steinman was responsible for the compositions - and remember Meatloaf's connection with the Rockie Horrow Show - which suddenly strikes as probably the most successful (and popular) rock opera - which reinforces the reasons for the theatrics.

I have a feeling the term 'stunt guitar ' may have been coined for Rundgren's guitarwork on the title track of Bat Out Of Hell, rather than Steve Vai's work under Zappa.

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Posted By: Tales
Date Posted: September 28 2007 at 13:36

YES!

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 28 2007 at 14:55

Dick Heath wrote:

jimmy_row wrote:

I have a feeling the term 'stunt guitar ' may have been coined for Rundgren's guitarwork on the title track of Bat Out Of Hell, rather than Steve Vai's work under Zappa.

yes, correct about Steinman, I was under the impression that they both composed but Meatloaf was more of the performer; haven't seen Rockie Horror in it's entirety but I'll agree that it is one of the more succesful rock opera's and obviously very popular still today. I'll have to check out more of the "stunt" guitar work you speak of, I was never aware that Rundgren was a particularly good musician...struck me as a 'songwriter' type (I've yet to get past Truestar and "Todd" in his catalogue").

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 28 2007 at 15:07

Dick Heath wrote:

Agree witth you Dick, the compositional skills of Steinman, his abbilities with the piano added to Meatloaf's powerful voice plus an operatic sensibility of both musicians (Remember Meatloaf studied dramatic art in the University of Texas and was a member of the West Coast Hair staff) was the key of their success.

The two best albums Bat Out of Hell and Bat Out of Hell II (Back to Hell) are all written by Jim Steinman:

Bat out of Hell Steinman

You Took the Words Right Out of My Mouth (Hot Summer Night) Steinman

Heaven Can Wait Steinman

All Revved Up With No Place to Go Steinman

Two Out of Three Ain't Bad Steinman

Paradise by the Dashboard Light Steinman

For Crying out Loud Steinman

I'd Do Anything for Love (But I Won't Do That) Steinman

Life Is a Lemon and I Want My Money Back Steinman

Rock & Roll Dreams Come Through Steinman

It Just Won't Quit Steinman

Out of the Frying Pan (And into the Fire) Steinman

Objects in the Rear View Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are Steinman

Wasted Youth Steinman

Everything Louder Than Everything Else Steinman

Good Girls Go to Heaven (Bad Girls Go Everywhere) Steinman

Back into Hell Steinman

Lost Boys and Golden Girls Steinman

So forget about Todd, he contributed, but the key of their success was mainly because of Jim Steinman.

Todd Rundgren had a strong role in Bat Out of Hell, but in the sequel his role is limited to vocal arrangements and guitar, so lets credit the one who deserves it and he's Jim Steinman who also produced the sequel..

I have a feeling the term 'stunt guitar ' may have been coined for Rundgren's guitarwork on the title track of Bat Out Of Hell, rather than Steve Vai's work under Zappa.

I heard that theory before, but not so sure because the quote by Frank is well known, but I agree, he did a good job.

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 28 2007 at 15:26

Def Leppard were so impressed by Steinman that the hired him to produce Pyromania. Having wasted most of the advance having the studio carpets changed, someone finally told them that Todd Rundgren produce Bat out of Hell, not Steinman. The album was finally produced by Mutt Lange. However, Steinman did do a decent job on the Sisters of Mercy's Floodlands.

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What?

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 28 2007 at 15:32

darqdean wrote:

I thought that Hysteria was the album where they tried working with Steinman. I have read some interesting quotes from both sides on that debacle. But in the end, Def Leppard did deliver the goods. The debate would be just how much Mutt Lange meant to them. Which still wouldn't mean a fig when listening to their albums.

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 28 2007 at 15:34

debrewguy wrote:

darqdean wrote:

You're right - I always get those two albums mixed up.

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What?

Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 06:28

jimmy_row wrote:

[I was never aware that Rundgren was a particularly good musician...struck me as a 'songwriter' type (I've yet to get past Truestar and "Todd" in his catalogue").

Some would argue that wrt Rundgren's instrumental abilities. In the early 70's the media did have due regard for musicians who did everything on their 'solo' albums - Emitt Rhodes and Todd Rundgren were often then held up as examples of 'accomplished' musicians (maybe Paul MvCCartney got included in the list too?), e.g. Something/Anything

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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 06:37

darqdean wrote:

Todd Rundgren has a peculiar reputation as a producer; XTC for instance arrived at the Bearville Studios for the special TR production and then apaprently didn't see Rundgren for days on end.

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Posted By: lazpete
Date Posted: January 12 2008 at 14:33

Been reading forums on the net since the birth of yahoo, but this thread must be one of the most hillarious ones ever created! Oh goosh, fun has never been this direct and non subtle.
Listen to the mainQ here" is this or that band this or that genre",
Come on! What a debate!
But, keep it commin, it is good fun!

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 12 2008 at 18:15

lazpete wrote:

Been reading forums on the net since the birth of yahoo, but this thread must be one of the most hillarious ones ever created! Oh goosh, fun has never been this direct and non subtle.
Listen to the mainQ here" is this or that band this or that genre",
Come on! What a debate!
But, keep it commin, it is good fun!

Maybe you don't get the point Lazpete, this is a Prog site and despite it's quite open compared with others, we try to keep it Prog, so the genre does cares, if a band is not Prog or a least Prog related, well they should not be on the database of Prog Archives.

There are hundreeds of Punk, Disco, Pop, Reggae, Rap, Hip Hop, and they only add bands that belong to their genre, but in their case it's simople, nobody will mistake Rap with non Rap or hardly you won't recognize a Punk track at ythe first listen.

If we didn't cared if a band is Prog or not, this site would be a General music site like Allmusic, which is very useful, but not a place for people who is interested mainly in Progressive rock.

Cheers

Iván

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Posted By: Flip_Stone
Date Posted: March 14 2008 at 16:04

As with any band that exists over a long period of time (across decades), like Styx, you can't expect one fixed sound or style to prevail. If a band is healthy and creative, chances are they aren't going to want to stay in one place forever.

Styx were progressive at one time (namely the first five albums), though they also mixed in more accessible / popular songs on the albums at the same time. Equinox started blurring the lines, and Crystal Ball continued the trend to where there were only traces of what could be prog. Pieces of Eight showed the band in more of a standard rock n roll position, though still sounding uniquely Styx (especially due to Dennis DeYoung's voice).

It's really dumb to have to force one label on any band to sum them up, or try to box groups into convenient categories. That's like trying to fully describe a person by only using one word. Try it, see if it makes sense....

Get over it. No labels are necessary.

Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 08:12

^I agree with all you said, until I reached "Get over it. No labels are necessary.", to which I disagree. They are there two distingusih between quite clearly defined genres, even though the lines between them sometimes get blurry. I think of it as a rough description, but still a viable description. We have reviews to express how we feel about a certain band, without bothering about the genres description.

And when it comes to Styx I'm perfectly happy with them in Prog Related, for the very same reasons you stated above.

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http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 13:08

LinusW wrote:

^I agree with all you said, until I reached "Get over it. No labels are necessary.", to which I disagree. They are there two distingusih between quite clearly defined genres, even though the lines between them sometimes get blurry. I think of it as a rough description, but still a viable description. We have reviews to express how we feel about a certain band, without bothering about the genres description.

Exactly what I believe, if not, why do we have Rock, Blues, Pop, Rap, Raeggae, Raeggeton, Jazz, etc and not just call it all Contemporary Popular Music.

Some people say we should only divide all in good and bad music.............But what is good and bad music, how could I convince a 15 years kid used to listen top 40 stuff that Boys or Girls band are not good music?

Even if I talk about musical standards, he will tell me this are rules for old people, I remember a movie with Al Pacino where he's coach of a Florida Team and talks to the quarterback (Roichard Beamen

) about Jazz and the guy answers "I don't care about old music".

Why should we decide what is good and what is bad?

So genres and labes are necessary, we need to identify things, everything is labeled, there's the general term Classical Music, but there are subdivisions like Gothic, Renaissance, Baroque, Classic Era, Romantic, Modern, Post Modern, etc.

Also in painting, there's Clacicism, Fauvism, Modernism, Impressionism, Mannerism, etc.

To love something, you got to understand it, and labeling is the best way, lets be honest most artists who talk about not being labeled, is because they are unhappy with the genre they are located, I received mails from artists asking to be included ibn Symphonic, when we checked and told them they could maybe fit in Neo Prog or Eclectic or Xover, they reply that they don't want to be labeled (but of course after asking to be added in Symphonic), and this is wrong, all genres are equally good, the beauty is in the ears of the audience.

LinusW wrote:

And when it comes to Styx I'm perfectly happy with them in Prog Related, for the very same reasons you stated above.

More than happy, I'm a STYX fan (I made the bio for them), but they are bnot a full Prog band, they accept it, they are a Rock band with some Prog moments that almmost vanished when John Curulewski left the band, but the are an excellent band.

The Grand Illusion is my favorite album by them, and I don't care it's not a Prog album mainly, there will always be a slot in my CD player for this great release.

Iván

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 16:35

cheers, nice to see an outsider sharing the fun

Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 17:15

When I think of "Crossover Prog" I see Styx, ELO and Supertramp.

Styx were naff, but not as cheesey as Starcastle, for example. Being naff certainly doesn't preclude them from inclusion here at PA. If that was the case half the bands here would be chopped.. Wink