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cuncuna 
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Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
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 Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:47 |
 Ghost Rider wrote:
salmacis wrote:
'The Grand Illusion' is still prog, IMHO, with the exception of 'Superstars' (this one is very Broadway and not to my tastes) and 'Miss America' (a decent enough slab of heavy rock). Even 'Come Sail Away' has a great keyboard mid section. It's after that album they lost any real of trace of prog, IMHO.
Their first 3 or 4 albums are prog, but I don't think they are particularly good prog. That's besides the point though, really. |
Exactly! ProgArchives aims to be a complete database of prog music, and that includes the bad together with the good. There are a lot of bands I dislike here, but I would never dream of saying they should be removed because I don't like them. And then, we should always be careful of passing judgment on bands or artists whose output we know only marginally.
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that's really cool... I've been expecting any music website to start a "bad" cathegory. "Bad Prog" sounds like a fun label to develope... just imagine how many years it'll take to debate wich bands belong there...  Edit: uhm...  ¡¡¡COFF COFF COFF DREAM THEATECOFF COFF!!!...
Edited by cuncuna - September 21 2007 at 22:49
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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micky
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Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:51 |
I'd take the new 'bad prog' sub-genre anyday hahhaha...
first group to be moved into it ... VDGG 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:51 |
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with Dream Theater being a close 2nd hahah
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
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Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:53 |
micky wrote:
I'd take the new 'bad prog' sub-genre anyday hahhaha...
first group to be moved into it ... VDGG
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* piano stops-- saloon goes silent *
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micky
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Posted: September 21 2007 at 22:59 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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debrewguy
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:30 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
debrewguy wrote:
Debrewguy starts with this overly patronizing comment - YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT ? Do you remember Glam ? Maybe you could tell me who Bowie's audience was when he was playing mr androgenous (sorry for the mispelling) rock star ? Sure as heck wasn't my 32 year old dad ! Oh, and while I'm at it, please define "substance". Then explain why that would matter the slightest fig when it comes to another person's enjoyment of music. As opposed to Snobby elitist like posturing. |
This is an interesting issue, in the late 60's Rock was a kids issue , because adults were not interested in rock, as a fact it was still a taboo, a thing of hippies and the adults were much more conservative and many of them grew with Sinatra and the most adventurous young adults grew with Pat Boone, Elvis or early Beatles, a guy dressed as an androginous space man could be an aberration for them.. DB adds - From some of the things I remember reading, Sinatra's young heartthrob days had a large contingent of "young" people. They did keep a preference for the same type of music through the years. The same way that some folks loved Elvis, but by the time that the Beatles came around, they were already "old" enough to wonder what all the fuss was about.
Even Bowie was born in 1947, so he was in his early 20's when he reached the peak, so his music as most of Rock was a thing of kids in their teens and very early 20's.
With the birth of Prog, things changed a bit, most of the fans were University students who had grown with Rock and stopped to be just a teen's issue
DB questions - I think you're right as far as the stereotypical prog fan. But I also remember Creem & Circus magazines from the mid to late 70s that had prog acts as an equal part of their coverage. Heck , I recall seeing Tull, Strawbs, Gentle Giant & Genesis albums in the readers' poll of the top releases in more than one issue. And I don't think these mags were aimed at the University crew.
I have stated before that for most of the 70s, a lot or Rock music fans were into bands, not genres. So my collection when I was 16, included Close to the Edge & Billy Joel's The Stranger, along with Aqualung, some Kiss & Zep and Rush & Strawbs.
By 1975 when Queen reached their peak with A Night at the Opera young adults in their early 30's were already Rock fans, so Queen was accepted by an older audience.
Probably in 1972 adults would had hardly accepted a guy with a golden cape and another one dressed as a flower dancing along the stage, but today you find people in their 50's listening and accepting that music, this same adults listen Bowie today and never cared with their androginous looks.
So what was young people's music in the 60's is adult music today and the comparison of your or my father is not accurate.
I don't believe Bowie was ever targeted for adolescents, it's just the fact that adults were not ready to accept him, while Queen ffrom the start was music for all ages.
DB surmises - Rock music, since its' inception, has usually been the province of youth. Whether this means teenagers, college kids, young adults or whatever, it still is rare that popular music (no, not necessarily top 40, just one with a good following like many of our 70s prog idols) is aimed at the older crowd. So while I am still open to new music, I don't hear too much that is aimed specifically at my old ears (45 years as of August). Or rather, I should say music that may be aimed at my age group, but that I have no interest in (new country, light jazz, mainstream "pop", etc )
But after all, I read that this or that act puts out music that a certain type of person may like, not a certain age group; although there are obviously genres that attract a very specific demographic - boy bands, tweenies, emo pop punk ...
Iván
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Shakespeare
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 19:39 |
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No.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 23:28 |
debrewguy wrote:
DB adds - From some of the things I remember reading, Sinatra's young heartthrob days had a large contingent of "young" people. They did keep a preference for the same type of music through the years. The same way that some folks loved Elvis, but by the time that the Beatles came around, they were already "old" enough to wonder what all the fuss was about.
I don't disagree with your perspective totally, but even you must recognize that today adults (I'm 42 since August) clearly listens more Rock than in the late 60's and early 70's.
Also remember that The Beatles wasn't everything, the Hippie movement was not accepted by most adults, it was a sign of rebellion and promiscuos sex and Rock was identified with the flower kids.
DB questions - I think you're right as far as the stereotypical prog fan. But I also remember Creem & Circus magazines from the mid to late 70s that had prog acts as an equal part of their coverage. Heck , I recall seeing Tull, Strawbs, Gentle Giant & Genesis albums in the readers' poll of the top releases in more than one issue. And I don't think these mags were aimed at the University crew.
I believe they had to mention them because they were an important minority, of course Progg was not exclusively music dfor University styudents, but a big percentage of their audience was there, Genesis for example survived making University tours.
I have stated before that for most of the 70s, a lot or Rock music fans were into bands, not genres. So my collection when I was 16, included Close to the Edge & Billy Joel's The Stranger, along with Aqualung, some Kiss & Zep and Rush & Strawbs.
The 70's were much simpler than this days, there was Rock (As a big unmbrella that covered Classic Rock, Prog, Psychedelia and Related genres) even in the world of Prog it was simpler, there were practically no sub-genres which started to be widely used with the birth of Neo Prog.
DB surmises - Rock music, since its' inception, has usually been the province of youth. Whether this means teenagers, college kids, young adults or whatever, it still is rare that popular music (no, not necessarily top 40, just one with a good following like many of our 70s prog idols) is aimed at the older crowd.
Most of today's music is not aimed for every age, the target are kids who will buy anything that their favorite DJ says is good.
But if you go to any Classic Rock or Prog concert, you will find people even in their late 50's, sonething that didn't happened in the 60's.
So while I am still open to new music, I don't hear too much that is aimed specifically at my old ears (45 years as of August). Or rather, I should say music that may be aimed at my age group, but that I have no interest in (new country, light jazz, mainstream "pop", etc )
I believe most of us are not interested.
But after all, I read that this or that act puts out music that a certain type of person may like, not a certain age group; although there are obviously genres that attract a very specific demographic - boy bands, tweenies, emo pop punk ...
That's the point, you very rarely will see a 30 years old guy listening Britney or N'Sync, but for sure you will see people in their 30's on a Radiohead or U2 concert, not to talk about Prog, in a Tull concert here in Lima, I had at my side a guy witth a Ian like beard who should be in his late 50's (at least) smoking 5 of 6 huge joints and I was one of the youngest in the crowd..
Iván
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Dean
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 06:23 |
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What?
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jammun
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 19:19 |
OK, I could have perhaps stated it better, and I don't remember it all that well 
That being said, back when i was an 18 year old college student I do remember that those of us who were listening to ELP, Yes, KC, and others had a disdain for Bowie, Alice Cooper, and others who, in our opinion, were more interested in theatricality than music. There were others who were decidedly in the opposite camp.
You can only imagine our pain when we saw Emerson's rotating-grand piano theatrics during the Brain Salad tour. 
That being said, I eventually learned to enjoy Bowie (though not Alice Cooper), particularly when Eno and Fripp were in the mix.
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micky
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 19:23 |
jammun wrote:
OK, I could have perhaps stated it better, and I don't remember it all that well
That being said, back when i was an 18 year old college student I
do remember that those of us who were listening to ELP, Yes, KC, and
others had a disdain for Bowie, Alice Cooper, and others who, in our
opinion, were more interested in theatricality than music. There
were others who were decidedly in the opposite camp.
You can only imagine our pain when we saw Emerson's rotating-grand piano theatrics during the Brain Salad tour.
That being said, I eventually learned to enjoy Bowie (though not Alice Cooper), particularly when Eno and Fripp were in the mix.
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hahahhahah. I envy your pain brother 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Thyme Traveler
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 01:39 |
jammun wrote:
Well, I'm perusing the forum here and might as well make a few enemies.
I've heard some of the early stuff -- I owned the first album but who knows where it is now. If we are to consider Styx as a prog band, based on the early albums, then surely they would have to rank amongst the worst. At least they became competent when they went AOR. |
Styx's Wooden Nickel albums were prog... but were they good prog ? Mediocre at best.
I've always like Ivan's review of Styx, especially this:
"...which the band achieve some financial success and show the sound they pretended to create."
That pretty much sums it up. While bands like ELP were pretentious, they at least, arguably had a reason to be. Styx was pretentiousness without the juevos to back it up.
Ironically, it was one of the few non-prog moments(and better songs) from their early years which got them a big A & M contract. Without "Lady" this thread would never be here.
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Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions.
What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum.
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Easy Money
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 02:15 |
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If you were into music in the early 70s, and buying records week by week looking for innovative rock and jazz from bands that were breaking new boundries with each new output, you would not have been suprised with Styxx's eventual musical direction. No one I knew back then ever considered them to be "progressive". They were copy cats who were following what was a brief trend of popularity for so-called progressive rock.
Edited by Easy Money - September 26 2007 at 02:18
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Nipsey88
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 02:20 |
Yes, Styx are prog enough to be considered prog related... that still doesn't make it right. I bought Paradise Theater when it came out when I was 10...by age 11 I bought Moving Pictures and gave the Styx record to my younger sister...she wasn't having it either
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 02:33 |
Easy Money wrote:
If you were into music in the early 70s, and buying records week by week looking for innovative rock and jazz from bands that were breaking new boundries with each new output, you would not have been suprised with Styxx's eventual musical direction. No one I knew back then ever considered them to be "progressive". They were copy cats who were following what was a brief trend of popularity for so-called progressive rock.
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I agree that in the 70's few people from the Prog communitty considered them Prog but they were and something STYX never was is copycats, they were quite original, their sound was unique, they were not trying to clone Yes, Genesis or anybody, they were being themselves, for good or bad.
Few bands had such a powerful vocal work with 4 members that could take the lead vocals and probably the best chorus after Queen, they were unique from the start.
The Prog era didn't brought them popularity, John Curulewsky left and Denis De Young took control of the band, they became more POP or AOR oriented but still they were original, nobody achived such pomposity in mainstream tracks as Crystal Ball or Come Sail Away.
BTW: If they were copy cats searchibng for popularity...they would had chosen other genre, remember they were from USA and in the early 70's Prog wasn't even remotely popular in this side of the Atlantic ocean.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 26 2007 at 12:46
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Raff
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 03:08 |
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I am afraid some people here mistake being good for being prog. The question isn't, "did Styx release GOOD prog albums?", but rather, "Did they release ANY prog albums?" - which of course they did.
If they were an obscure band from Kazakhstan, no one would discuss the quality of their output, even if it was the worst kind of prog record you can think of. Unfortunately, they are a relatively high-profile band, so everybody thinks it's worth taking a shot at them. And this goes for ANY high-profile band included in PA.
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Easy Money
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 03:23 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
If you were into music in the early 70s, and buying records week by week looking for innovative rock and jazz from bands that were breaking new boundries with each new output, you would not have been suprised with Styxx's eventual musical direction. No one I knew back then ever considered them to be "progressive". They were copy cats who were following what was a brief trend of popularity for so-called progressive rock. |
I agree that in the 70's few people from the Prog communitty considered them Prog but they were and something STYX never was is copycats, they were quite original, their sound was unique, they were not trying to clone Yes, Genesis or anybody, they were being themselves, for good or bad.
Few bands had such a powerful vocal work with 4 members that could take the lead vocals and probably the best chorus after Queen, they were unique from the start.
The Prog era didn't brought them popularity, John Curulewsky left and James De Young took control of the band, they became more POP or AOR oriented but still they were original, nobody achived such pomposity in mainstream tracks as Crystal Ball or Come Sail Away.
BTW: If they were copy cats searchibng for popularity...they would had chosen other genre, remember they were from USA and in the early 70's Prog wasn't even remotely popular in this side of the Atlantic ocean.
Iván
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Interesting point, I was just curious if you knew where John Curulewsky ended up in his musical career. I didn't know anyone split the the band that early.
Edited by Easy Money - September 26 2007 at 03:23
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 13:05 |
Easy Money wrote:
Interesting point, I was just curious if you knew where John Curulewsky ended up in his musical career. I didn't know anyone split the the band that early. |
Thanks.
About John Curulewski, he left Proffesional music after "Equinox", he participated in Styx, Styx II, The Serpent Is Rising, Man of Miracles, and Equinox.
He wanted to spend more time with his family so he started to teach guitar at "The Music Shop" in Illinois but died very young in 1988 of a sudden brain aneurism.
He was the man who pushed Styx towards Prog, contrary to what people believe, his replacement Tommy Shaw was also Prog oriented but in those days he was the newbie and Dennis De Young (The most POP oriented Styx member and author of Babe or Mr Robotto) took control of the band, but Tommy still managed to balance the things a bit with some great songs as "Fooling Yourself".
You should get the last DVD (STYX and the Contemporary Youth Orchestra) where Dennis is no longer member of the band. he is replaced by a guy named Gowan who plays excellent keyboards and does a decent singing, because of this they don't play Come Sail Away, Mr Robotto or De Young's tracks to avoid paying royalties and the music is spectacular.
Iván
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Easy Money
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 13:19 |
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Thanks for the info, that is unfortunate about Mr Curulewski. He was wise to escape the music biz though.
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jimmy_row
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Posted: September 26 2007 at 14:54 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Interesting point, I was just curious if you knew where John Curulewsky ended up in his musical career. I didn't know anyone split the the band that early. |
Thanks.
About John Curulewski, he left Proffesional music after "Equinox", he participated in Styx, Styx II, The Serpent Is Rising, Man of Miracles, and Equinox.
He wanted to spend more time with his family so he started to teach guitar at "The Music Shop" in Illinois but died very young in 1988 of a sudden brain aneurism.
He was the man who pushed Styx towards Prog, contrary to what people believe, his replacement Tommy Shaw was also Prog oriented but in those days he was the newbie and Dennis De Young (The most POP oriented Styx member and author of Babe or Mr Robotto) took control of the band, but Tommy still managed to balance the things a bit with some great songs as "Fooling Yourself".
You should get the last DVD (STYX and the Contemporary Youth Orchestra) where Dennis is no longer member of the band. he is replaced by a guy named Gowan who plays excellent keyboards and does a decent singing, because of this they don't play Come Sail Away, Mr Robotto or De Young's tracks to avoid paying royalties and the music is spectacular.
Iván |
I don't think I'd say that DDY was the most POP oriented, especially before The Grand Illusion - he contributed the most pompous, quasi-prog of all the members. Curelewski certainly played a role in their more eclectic early sound, but it was DeYoung who wrote most of the progressive songs. IMO, it was the entrance of Tommy Shaw that slowly turned them into an awful AOR band....Dennis and Tommy regressed into a competition over who could write more popular songs (it just so happened that Tommy's weren't nearly as bad as Dennis', so people around here pick on Dennis more). But in the end, I can forgive Dennis for Babe and Mr. Roboto because he wrote songs like Suite Madame Blue, Castle Walls, Father OSA, This Old Man, Queen of Spades, Earl of Roseland, Evil Eyes, Jonas Psalter, etc... The main difference is in the way his style interacted with John C vs. Shaw...Shaw had more of a pretty-boy image that Dennis tried to compete with, driving the band down that horrible road.
But anyway, my point is, don't be so hard on DDY - he was the leader of the band and in the early years, the most progressive minded.
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Should Styx be considered as Prog?
