The Album That Killed Prog? |
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Dim
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 17 2007 Location: Austin TX Status: Offline Points: 6890 |
Posted: August 19 2007 at 19:35 | |
I am also getting tired of this thread, but...
The sex pistols did mortally wound prog...
Just to make a fll recovery!
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 19 2007 at 19:48 | |
Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3: Well, she turned me into a newt! Sir Bedevere: A newt? Peasant 3: [meekly after a long pause] ... I got better. Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway! please allow this thread to die a peaceful and undisturbed death, it's run its course, there's nothing left to say here that hasn't been said often and repeatedly.
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What?
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Komodo dragon
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 20 2007 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 346 |
Posted: August 19 2007 at 19:53 | |
ghost_of_morphy
One album can't change the history of music but a 100 can so I tease you to name 100 bad... reely bad albums and convince me that I and 10000 or more people on this site listen wrong side of music-dead one Edited by Komodo dragon - August 19 2007 at 19:56 |
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Morbix
Forum Groupie Joined: April 29 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 68 |
Posted: August 20 2007 at 08:47 | |
Well punk in general makes a vicious assault on any kind of educated musical composition involving instrumental skill. |
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Take everything in moderation, including moderation.
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: August 20 2007 at 09:42 | |
As others have pointed out, the basic concept of this thread is a non-starter. There was no single album "silver bullet" or "smoking gun" that "killed' prog, but rather an evolution in the music industry and the wider society which made that music (never very mainstream) fall even more out of favour with critics, record labels, concert organizers, and the purchasing masses.
Basically, prog had been done, and the time was ripe for something new -- which punk and new wave (and even disco, I suppose) provided. People wanted to dance and grin again when listening to popular music -- not just sit on their duffs and "trip out" to the heaviness of it all in a black-lit room. Of course, it wasn't just prog rock that fell out of favour, either. The relatively few mainstream rock bands which had long dominated the airwaves and record sales also had to adapt or fade away. To take just one example, compare the "modern" sound of Zeppelin's last release, with those that came before it. What was bad for prog artists like ELP, Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Moody Blues, etc, was also bad for groups like Zeppelin, the Who, the Eagles and Deep Purple, etc. Many classic rock and prog (a sub-genre of classic rock) "dinosaur" acts went extinct, while others adapted, "walked right out of the machinery" and evolved, finding new ways to be "prog." (See Gabriel's groundbreaking and commercially-sucessful third solo effort, and Bowie's constant reinvention of himself, especially in his "Berlin" trilogy of albums, and even Let's Dance.) Times change -- and change they did. From this list, however, I'd point to ELP's overblown, bloated WORKS (and its successor) as a weak album (overall) that really helped turn the tide against prog rock. The album and its financially disastrous tour pretty much encapsulated all of the "shortcomings" (actual, or assumed) of the genre: pompous, out of touch, irrelevant, unrealistic -- big and complex just for the sake of being so. It was the wrong album, at the wrong time. ELP were never exactly the rock critics' darlings, but now the rock press lined up to heap scorn upon the album, the band, and the genre it was a part of. Rock was returning to its simpler "anyone can do it" good time roots, and classically trained (or classically aspiring) "rock" musicians just didn't resonate with the prevailing sensibilities. Less had become more -- rock needed to ROCK again, and prog's reach had, with Works, far exceeded its grasp Another prog album that helped to turn the tide against prog was of course Yes's messy, fatally-flawed Topographic Oceans. The pretension levels and mystic, druggy "obtuseness" of it all were leaving even many longterm fans of the band behind, and shaking their heads in perplexed bemusement. ( Genesis had a similar, fan-polarizing album with The Lamb Lies Down.) But, of course, prog did not "die" -- it simply went even further underground, and hibernated for a time. When it re-surfaced in the Eighties, it had -- for better or worse, depending upon your perspective -- "learned a few lessons," adopted some new sounds and simpler melodic structures, and become leaner, tighter, hungrier, and more widely accessible overall. These days -- as with popular music in general -- the music we deem "prog" has fractured and branched out in many directions, for many different audiences. From the poppier, radio-friendly, shorter songs of bands like It Bites, Radiohead and such, to the widely popular metal prog of bands like Dream Theater and Opeth, etc, to the "retro" old school prog of bands like Marillion, IQ, Pendragon, Echolyn, etc, to today's really far-out, perhaps truly progressive, innovative artists like Deus Ex Machina, Godspeed You Black Emperor, the Mars Volta, Mr Bungle, etc, there's now a type of "prog" for just about everyone! But is it all "prog?" Is 'prog' even a valid single genre? Has the term long outlived its usefulness, and lost whatever meaning it once may have had? That's another topic! Edited by Peter - August 20 2007 at 13:14 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Morbix
Forum Groupie Joined: April 29 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 68 |
Posted: August 20 2007 at 12:56 | |
That was the best damn explanation in this thread, ESPECIALLY those last two paragraphs. Edited by Morbix - August 20 2007 at 12:57 |
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Take everything in moderation, including moderation.
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: August 20 2007 at 13:08 | |
Thanks -- I was hoping someone would actually read such a "long" post.
Move to the front of the class!
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 12 2007 Location: Bryant, Wa Status: Offline Points: 8581 |
Posted: August 21 2007 at 04:01 | |
Thank you Peter, so far you've made the most sense.
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 13 2006 Location: Londinium Status: Offline Points: 4252 |
Posted: August 21 2007 at 04:30 | |
The Album That Killed Prog?
Although i agree with the opinions expressed in this thread that Prog seemed to shoot itself in the foot, looking back to 1976 the above album caused a huge impression in the public "sheep" conciousness, causing many of my friends and critics to scoff at the music i loved - i almost felt like a recluse, clinging on to my dream that all was not lost, sanity would return and things would be "normal" again (seems to be now thank God).
As for Punk, ironically this pretentious drivel that made Quo look like esoteric fusion virtuosos was about fashion and band-wagon jumping, nothing to do with music, but there is no accounting for public taste they say - blandness, fashion, bad taste and the bandwagon still rules.
Edited by mystic fred - August 21 2007 at 04:35 |
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Prog Archives Tour Van
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ten years after
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 07 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1008 |
Posted: September 08 2007 at 00:35 | |
I agree with this. By the time NMtB came out, prog's work here was done after a brief but incredibly brilliant life. Plenty of prog has been written since, of course, but I'm content with what was already there by 1976.
When Never Mind the Bollocks came out it became very clear that music was now heading in a totally different direction.
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zicIy
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 04 2007 Status: Offline Points: 413 |
Posted: September 08 2007 at 02:59 | |
voted Genesis -And Then There Were Three as one disaster, wrost album on this list,imo, NOT because i think this album "killed" Prog...there is not an album on the list which "killed" anything.
Edited by zicIy - September 08 2007 at 03:08 |
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MajesterX
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 30 2005 Status: Offline Points: 513 |
Posted: September 08 2007 at 11:11 | |
No other music killed prog, it was the end of an era and a change in people that caused it's end.
You can't say Prog killed late 60's psychedelic or that alternative rock "killed" the 80's hair bands, it's musical evolution. If would make no sense to say that if punk & disco never came along or if prog bands didn't start doing pop that prog would have lived on strong for another 6 years as strong as ever. No pop music style really lasts all that long- ie there is a constant evolution in music that will never change. Even when new and different bands come and become more popular and fresh than the bands we might love, we can't blame them for destroying that music. BTW, the Sex Pistol's singer was a huge Peter Hammill fan, and if we told him he caused the end of Peter Hammill's small ammount of popularity, he would call us crazy. |
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Losendos
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 03 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 571 |
Posted: September 09 2007 at 07:09 | |
The golden era was 1969 to 1977 but there were good albums after that and Alan Parsons and Mike Oldfield remained popular . To me ATTW3 would have to be the most disappointing album ending the heyday and if you see the lyrics to the first track it is a calculated sell out. Musically however it is much better than the abysmal love beach and not such a bad albumthough it has a certain sameness.Funny though Genesis dabbled again with prog on Duke . The one that is always dragged out for another flogging is TFTO not listed here . To me 90125 was something of a return to form.
My vote went to love beach a very sad album indeed.
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How wonderful to be so profound
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10617 |
Posted: September 13 2007 at 23:01 | |
Seeing ELP during their Works tour got me off prog for a long long time. Later I saw the cover for Love Beach much much much later I bought a used copy of Love Beach to see how bad it was and it still had an insert advertising sexy running shorts and tight T-shirts with the Love Beach logo!!!
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Teh_Slippermenz
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 11 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 321 |
Posted: September 14 2007 at 16:54 | |
Progressive rock is not dead. (Marillion, Porcupine Tree, or Dream Theater anybody?)
But the album that had to have killed prog commercially was ELP's "Love Beach"...so not prog. Anyway, I vote for "90125" by Yes. That....is a desecration of Yes. |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Online Points: 35799 |
Posted: September 14 2007 at 17:32 | |
Not disagreeing with you so much as having a bit of fun with my response. 1. They couldn't even give Prog a decent burial. Such revivalism kind of makes me wish Prog was dead and buried (rather than on life-support). I'm glad that good progressive music never died; the progressive spirit not only lived, but prospered with so-called avant-proggish bands. 2. Point well-taken, but I don't blame Love Beach, it was an indication of the weariness of the Prog movement (and of ELP). I think it's the excessiveness and pretentiousness of music such as earlier ELP that was the harbinger of Prog doom. Sure ELP was very commercially successful, but it was just a matter of time before the public turned away from such overblown, bombastic, pompous w**kery (in my opinion of course). Though a live album, Pictures at an Exhibition might be a good reference point. Fans of Mussorgsky would largely be unimpressed, think it showed gall and is overly ambitious, and most fans of rock would not enjoy it overmuch. Rather like it myself. As for Yes, well sure, yes. A sign of the times. I'd choose the earlier Tormato, though. *throws rotten tormatos* Oh darn, I meant this to be a pithy opinion post. Edited by Logan - September 14 2007 at 17:34 |
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laplace
Prog Reviewer Joined: October 06 2005 Location: popupControl(); Status: Offline Points: 7606 |
Posted: September 14 2007 at 17:44 | |
I almost wish I could vote for "In the Court" here. I think that what really brought it to its knees - and what invited all the negative attention - was Fripp's accidental comment that defined the genre in the first place. You can tell he regretted it afterwards.
don't want to get into the semantics of this or that genre being dead or thriving... but I think prog is dead. ;P a lot of the contemporary stuff I hear nowadays is something else altogether, at least to me. |
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Time Signature
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 20 2007 Status: Offline Points: 362 |
Posted: September 14 2007 at 17:58 | |
It's interesting that so many people hate that album. Maybe it's just because I'm too young to have experienced Yes chronologically, but I think it's a pretty interesting album and I don't consider it any form of musical degeneration. I like it better than "Going for the one", and I find it as interesting as, say, "Fragile" or "Time and a Word". Yes, I know, I'll get my head ripped off for this, and will be banished from PA in all eternity.
I think that prog is not dead in the sense that as long as there will be conformist music, there will always also be progressive music. It's like yin and yang, I suppose. Edited by Time Signature - September 14 2007 at 17:58 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: September 18 2007 at 19:34 | |
BTO's Not Fragile. After that, who could hear anything ...
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Teh_Slippermenz
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 11 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 321 |
Posted: September 18 2007 at 21:16 | |
Indeed, most progressive rock bands evolved (Yes, Genesis), and found new ways to be progressive. Genesis had "Duke", which was like progreessive pop, and an EXPERIMENTAL ROCK album called "Abacab", which many mistake for pop. None of that album except the song "Man on the Corner" can be classified as pure pop. Yes during the Rabin-era were just pop rock, which is why I didn't bother to listen to them past "90125", it didn't exactly kill PROG, but it killed YES. After Trevor Rabin left I took an interest in them again. Also, another Genesis album that was semi-progressive was "Genesis", AKA the Shapes album. While it wasn't experimental or true prog pop like "Duke", it did feature "Home by the Sea" and "Second Home by the Sea", which is prog pop. It is most likely an art rock album, but it isn't as progressive as Duke or Abacab, and after that, Genesis would be pure pop. I'm afraid I disagree about Tales from Topographic Oceans. It was a lovely album (but not better than what I consider to be their magnum opus, "Relayer"), and it was a modern day symphony. Unfortunately, it was too progressive for casual listeners, and especially some UK critics. On the subject of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, I liked it, and it had some classic moments (none of which include "The Carpet Crawlers" for me), but in my opinion, it pales in comparison to "Foxtrot" and "Selling England by the Pound", both of which were magnificent albums, more so than The Lamb. I am probably one of those polarized fans, I guess. I much prefer its follow-up, "A Trick of the Tail". Edited by Teh_Slippermenz - September 18 2007 at 21:17 |
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