The Album That Killed Prog?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40042
Printed Date: November 26 2024 at 09:41
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Album That Killed Prog?
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Subject: The Album That Killed Prog?
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:06
| So which album is the one that made you finally realize that prog was dead? |
Replies:
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:07
|
Prog isn't dead,but alive and kicking.
So I pick none of them. -------------  |
Posted By: Floydian42
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:11
|
Gah! You have a few good albums there, I.E. The Wall, and Discipline! If I may quote "Curse ya' fer breathin ya' slapshot idiot!" Heh, but since I believe you mean the first wave of prog, I'd have to go 90125. I found it one day about a year ago, listened to it and gagged. |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:16
Word. ------------- 
|
TheProgtologist wrote:Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:22
|
Interesting idea here!
 But I beg to differ on your choices.The first four on your list look like the perfect culprits. You may want to include all of Curved Air and most of the post Carnegie Hall Renaissance albums.
Thhe next few are from the 80's and prog was already in a coma, so they don't count.
The Wall and ATOTT are not top be put in such a list, though ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:27
|
DISCIPLINE? A TRICK OF THE TAIL? No way!
I must admit doubt starting creeping in with GOING FOR THE ONE, WIND AND WUTHERING and STORMWATCH, though... |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:28
|
Don't be silly. No album killed Prog because it is still alive.
However, Punk damaged Prog's reputation. ------------- 
|
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:31
Yeah... word ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
|
Posted By: Publius84
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 12:55
Agree. Prog is alive and it's kicking  ------------- I know what I like and I like what I know... Prog is in my heart, in my mind, in my soul... |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 13:03
|
We first generation prog fan will argue but many will tell you Topographic Oceans provided plentiful ammunition to the anti-prog brigade - it is hard to argue with the Clash's charge that when inner city deprevation, unemployment, 3 days weeks were common, what did ToTO means to the average teeenager) , combined by the touring excesses of ELP in 1974-6 , combined with many of the first generation bands running out of innovative ideas (that made them attractive in the first place) and several disbanding. But prog didn't die, it either went underground in the UK or moved to a new address off-shore from the UK - although the neo-prog bands appeared and provided the presence above ground. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 13:12
|
The very fact people of all ages are still discussing prog to this day show it never did die- I'd argue it's now in its best health for some time, with Marillion, Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater and Rush faring reasonably well in the UK album charts for the first time in years (and in some cases, ever). This would imply that there is a greater audience for prog than there has been for years- perhaps an audience that has tired of the dull, NME-hyped indie bands that are de rigeur at the moment (I tried to move with the times and bought various Strokes/Libertines etc. albums and I was just deflated and disappointed with all of them).
However, the album which damaged prog's reputation the most? I've posted many a time that I like TFTO (though I readily accept it's not perfect and that there are flaws) and it's a LONG way from Yes' poorest, imho, but the candidates I always reach for in the 'worst excesses of prog' category are 'A Passion Play' and 'Works Volume 1'. I cannot find a memorable hook on APP no matter how many times I play it (and don't get me started on that '...Spectacles' thing!!) and even the title of 'Works Volume 1' is pompous! The solo material is, imho, well below the band's usual standard, and really it doesn't justify the album's double album length. Spectacles such as Rick Wakeman's 'King Arthur on ice' extravaganza/folly probably didn't help, either.
|
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 13:31
I second that. E ------------- 
|
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 13:31
|
Good idea for a poll.
One album didn't kill 70s prog, but I would argue that there were albums that severly wounded it, some more than others.
My vote goes to "Love Beach." I don't think prog ever fully recovered from the mortifying embarassment of that release. Something was definitely wrong with prog ethos at this point, as later lps by other bands would bear out. In hindsight, it wasn't all that bad, but at the time, it was hard to envision a viable direction for prog; Fripp was about the only guy taking it forward in a serious, uncompromising way. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 13:39
|
IMHO, GFTO and Works I were still powerful prog albums. It's pretty clear that the quality was still there. Granted it was different than the bands' earlier stuff, but it still succeed as good prob. The bands were exploring new ground (they had to), but the lps worked as good music.
------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 13:54
|
How about "forget th bullocks, heres the sex pistols"
Punk killed prog, not prog. Punk was music answer to music. Rebellious, sloppy, moshy freaks who dont know how to sing, play guitar/ bass, but they an play drums really fast, but with ZERO fills. ------------- 
|
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 13:56
| Prog is still alive, so nothing killed it. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 14:04
You know, I think 60 & 70s prog just evolved to the point where it was becoming repetitive or too esoteric. In my opinion, it was a natural evolution of an artistic style. I don't think anything "killed" it; it was death by natural causes. Prog had a great life, and its offshoots (neo prog and prog metal) have great lives too, I guess (not really being a fan, I'm just assuming).
But prog's death throes were rather amusing in a perverse sort of way (that's why this poll is so amusing). Of course the legacy lives on; I'm still listening to it, but its creative lifespan is over and has been for over 25 years. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: FranMuzak
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 14:24
Me too, i love many albums and bands from the "so hated "80´s and later ones, so i couldn´t vote.
|
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 14:27
|
Maybe this would have made a much better discussion thread than a prog poll.
Of course I specifically meant something along the lines of which album was most iconic of the decline and fall of the first wave of prog, but that's not a very sexy title, is it?
I was trying to get representation from most major bands, hence a couple of albums that don't really seem to belong.
The thing that came across most clearly when I was choosing albums was that the decline tended to be a gradual thing spread across two to four albums for nearly all groups. I put up what I thought were the lowest points, for the most part (there's an exception or two).
I appreciate all of the comments and would like to see more of them.
|
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 14:56
|
Prog might have been on the respirator for some years, but it never died. And you know the old saying : what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
So I won't vote, as prog WILL NEVER DIE !!! ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: MadcapLaughs84
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 15:36
|
Phil Collins and his stupid sense of humour ------------- 
|
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 16:46
|
[QUOTE=Dick Heath] combined by the touring excesses of ELP in 1974-6 , QUOTE]
No disrespect Dick but I don't think ELP actually did anything, recording or touring except at the end of the BSS tour in the first part of 74 (CalJam was the last show) in those years. Not that the earlier tours or the 77 tour didn't have excesses in plenty.
 As for the topic I just think musical tastes changed along with the tightening up of the on air radio formats prog was left without a way to express itself to the masses as it is to this day. Bands changed their styles trying to survive and failed for the most part Genesis being a huge exception. MTV changed the way we heard music and everything went underground. ------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 16:50
You make prog sound really dead. Your scaring me! -------------
|
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 17:07
In the second half of the Seventies the symphonic rock dinosaurs served the sarcastic musical press perfectly with albums like Love Beach by ELP (an almost complete lacklustre effort), And Then There Were Three by Genesis (Collins his road to commercial succes with his predictable prog-pop) and Tormato by Yes (one of the most uninspired progrock albums ever), The Sex Pistols did the rest  ... but fortunately progrock is too interesting to remain in the vaults of time so in fact nobody killed prog .. but it was a close escape in the late Seventies and early Eighties, a big hand for Marillion !
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 17:09
|
I can't vote here because all of the albums mentioned have survived the subsequent 30 years - you can go onto Amazon and buy every one of them, and all of the artists went on to record later albums that are also still available. The decline of Prog towards the end of the 70's and early 80's had nothing to do with the music, but was caused by the change in peoples’ attitude towards it engineered by a few “hip” journalists in the music press who were more interested in promoting their own fragile egos than good music. In the UK we can blame the self-promoting Charles Shaar Murray, Tony Parsons, Jane Suck and Julie Burchill - and their biggest and most damaging converts: the Radio DJ's who had championed Prog up until then and now jumped ship, switching their allegiances to the emerging New Wave scene solely because it made them look trendily anti-establishment – something they hadn’t been since the demise of Pirate Radio in the late 60’s. Rock Journalism became the new Rock and Roll, not Punk (which in case we forget, lasted less than a year before it drowned in its own puddle of gob) they just hijacked it and used it to fulfill their own agenda. If Punk managed to kill anything at all, (other than itself), it killed off Glam-rock and the unbearably dire Pub-rock scene – the Progressive groups of the day continued in spite of it. It is hard to comprehend the power they wielded at that time – They were the people who politicized what was happening, spreading discontent through the system – and as Journalists, they are the ones who have written the skewed history of that time that is still regarded as truth today. The evidence does not bear out their claims, Neo-prog and Prog-metal are not a nostalgia gig – new vibrant young musicians are emerging who have seen through their lies: Progressive music is still around, concept albums are still being made, epics are still being composed and stadiums are still being filled by the very dinosaurs that they claimed had been driven to extinction. You can't even blame Greg Lake's Persian carpet - even that is going strong after all these years, and can now be seen guesting on the System of a Down video for Hypnotize. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 17:13
|
Simply because is rotten and totally not Prog (from a big Prog band): KANSAS: "DRASTIC MEASURE" ------------- 
|
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 17:14
A very knowledgeable and accurate statement there, buddy ! ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 17:21
Oh just f&%kin great. Two albums I quite enjoy ATTWT and Tormato. Both Prog in my eyes. Prog killers? Not! Tormato was my first Yes album.
Actually, this thread keep rambling on about Prog Killers. Prog is still pretty darn healthy if you as me. -------------
|
Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 17:25
|
None of these albums really "killed prog" but releasing a double album featuring a "tasteful" cover, piano concerto, and re-work of a classical piece at the height of punk was a daring / crazy thing to do....ELP's Works 1 really embodied everything that many people cam to dislike about prog. There were worse albums on the list, but that's not the question! |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 17:48
| Love Beach, 90125 had 'changes'. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 18:08
I don't agree. I was a ELP fan when Works I came out, and I thought it was an excellent album, it didn't appear "daring or crazy". It actually seemed like a natural progression of the band members given their musical personalities. Granted, the lp not as good as its predecessors, but I don't think it hurt their reputation. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 18:20
"Punk (which in case we forget, lasted less than a year before it drowned in its own puddle of gob)"
Several of the albums mentioned don't fit the question if you ask me. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 18:44
The word is written 'werd' or 'wurd', or if you're daring, 'weurd'. Weurd. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 19:16
I know what you mean here, but I think you're crediting those journalists/critics with WAY too much power to influence events. These journalists just jumped on trends that were already building up. Their journalism might have been a component, but I think it is more of a "trailing" indicator of what was inevitiably going to happen. Journalists couldn't have "saved" golden age prog or kept it going much longer than it already had gone. It had fully developed it's sound and vision and ethos. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 19:24
Ah no, not all of Curved Air; they made some wonderful albums. The Wall completely belongs there; why, in my opinion "Animals" already belongs there. Pink Floyd just couldn't get their asses in motion in the passages that were supposed to be kicking. Some Zappa albums belong there too, in my opinion; there was a period (after "Zoot Allures") in which he had nothing original to contribute. His "Joe's Garage" trilogy just stinks, in my opinion. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 19:37
Baldfriede, I know we butted heads on this earlier, but I think it's an pretty clear to prog historians that Animals was one of the best albums Pink Floyd ever made, and one of the best prog albums ever made. If anything, it strengthened prog at a time when prog needed it.
In fact, I would like to have a dialogue in this very forum with anyone who believes Animals in any way represents the "death" of prog or even a dropping off of quality for the Floyd. Not that I want to argue; I just want to understand in clear terms where someone who holds that view is coming from.
For example, Meddle is a great Floyd album. Animals is not that different from it. In many ways what makes Meddle successful is more fully developed on Animals.
I'm sure there are one or two persons out there who don't like Animals; but I don't think one could argue that it contributed to the death of prog like Love Beach did. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 19:44
Bluetailfly, you should have seen the music press reactions to "Animals" in Germany, then you would think differently. They simply tore it apart. And it is clear to see why. The songs just don't kick enough ass. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 20:09
Well, rock critics are notoriously catty and nationalistic, so I don't put too much stock in what they have to say.
And, as to the songs "don't kick ass", I am rendered speechless by this outlandish perception of this music. I'm dazed. I have to go home now ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 20:21
Well, let me put it another way then. There is the German word "betulich", which perfectly describes these songs: A bit circumspect, a bit slow, and most of all harmless. I personally was severely disappointed with "Animals"; Punk had just given some much needed adrenaline back to rock. Not that I was a fan of punk, but if one looks at the prog albums that were created around this time it is obvious that the bands had forgotten how to really rock. It is the same for albums like "Wind and Wuthering" or "90125". The leaders of the wolf pack had lost their teeth; it was obvious something had to be done. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: LeInsomniac
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 20:25
|
It wasnt a album per se, it was a conjugation of a whole lot of albums that made it happen, the prog movement was dying it was just a matter of time, although albums like 90125 from yes and And There were three practically signed DOOM in prog music. Just one more thing, Genesis album A trick of the tail shouldnt be there cause thats one of the cornerstones of prog music man!!!! I cant believe you chose it!!!! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LeInsomniac/?chartstyle=volta"> 
Happy Family One Hand Clap, Four Went On But None Came Back |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 20:27
| Prog's not dead. It took the back burner for a while, but it's made a steady resurgence that's still going. Now's a great time to be a prog fan. Those albums in the poll above show the decline of the first wave, but prog isn't dead. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 20:32
I cannot speak for the situation in the USA at that time, but in the UK the paradigm shift within Rock Journalism was initially driven by the NME and Sounds (then later by The Melody Maker) in early 1976 while Progressive Rock was at its peak - a few years before all but one of the albums listed in this poll were even released. This was when these music papers stopped reporting trends and started opinionating and distorting the facts. At the 1976 and 1977 Reading Rock Festivals no one in the audience was remotely interested in Punk rock - we hated it with a passion, yet that wasn't the impression you got from those Music papers. Although they probably stopped short of telling blatant lies, they still did so by ommision, for example by failing to mention crowd sizes at gigs: 20 people at a Pistols gig in Manchester vs a completely sold-out performance by The Enid at the Roundhouse were reported as if the attendance figures were the other way around.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that what was written had any effect on the established names of Prog Rock - the effect they had was in stopping any emergent bands from following the prog-route, because to do so whould have been commercial suicide because the press was against them. Just look at how many of the New-wave bands did a complete volt-face at that time - various members of the Dammed, the Clash, the Stranglers, Ultravox! and the Police had started in prog bands.
We will never know whether these Journalists could have saved prog, or kept it going because they where instrumental in burying it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 20:46
|
the b*****ds
|
Posted By: DethMaiden
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 22:10
|
No album killed prog because prog isn't dead.
But And then There Were Three killed Genesis. Damn you Phil!
|
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 22:11
I think you meant "prog wasn't dead at that time (80's)"....... because prog is hardly alive & kickin' actually...  Note: To place "Discipline" on this list is a blasphemy  ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 22:17
I've always felt in ten or fifteen years time, we will look back on this period as a second golden age in Prog.. it's just hard to see cause we're still in it. |
Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 22:48
Yea.... and I wasn't alive during the first era.... but when I compare today's bands and their output with that of dinosaurs, I feel the same way. Anyways, Tales from Topo (I like alot) and Works Vol. 1/2 (not so much) are my suspects. |
Posted By: docsolar
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 23:21
Yes' Tormato. All hope was lost...  ------------- 
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 23:43
|
Tormato is a great album overall
|
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: July 18 2007 at 23:50
|
^ I agree! -------------
|
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 00:30
Well, it's clear you don't like PF's Animals, and that's fine, to each her own. But what I find jarringly incongruous here is that you've described "Animals" as an album that doesn't "kick ass" when it contains probably the best hard rock guitar work by any rock guitarist I have ever heard, and I have heard all the great ones.
Gilmour's work on "Pigs (Three Different Ones)" is an overwhelming musical experience. It's like Gilmour was possessed by demons or something when he played that piece, like he's channeling the screams and cries of the angst-ridden damned, like he's speaking in the tongues of extremely tortured souls. I could go on but the bottom line is every time I hear his work on that song, I am emotionally and physically exhausted. It overloads my aethetic sensibility to almost the breaking point. It is a sheer sonic firestorm.
So, I disagree. It does kick ass. It obliterates ass. It vaporizes ass. No punk band has ever come close to the anarchic energy in that guitar work. Not one.
But also, Animals does much more. I'm mean PF is not ZZ Top. PF intends to do much more with their music than kick ass, and they succeed in doing that with Animals as well. Astounding soundscapes on that album, again probably the best I have heard of any band that has attempted soundscapes.
Waters lyrics, outstanding. And on and on. The album is freakin' amazing.
Thank you.  ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 00:35
| Time killed Prog's popularity. It was not bad albums by prog artists, or punk rock (as many people love to use as a scapegoat). It was time and time alone. The population has no tolerance for loving one thing for more than 2-4 years at best. Whatever the phase is people love it, and equally turn around and stab it in the back. So I suppose we could blame ourselves and not time, but time factors in. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 00:49
|
yeah Dave does rock on that record (the whole album is terrific).. but he always has really, even on the 'Momentary' tour his playing was the best part of an otherwise tepid set of shows.
|
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 01:22
|
Regarding S. Trane's comment that all the CURVED AIR albums should be included, where in God's name does that come from.......or what the.......?
I agree with BaldFriede all the way. Curved Air have some excellent releases. I can't say much about the attack on Renaissance but no doubt some of their fans would strongly disagree. I just can't see the point of singling out a band like Curved Air and ALL their albums ,even those realeased during the early to mid 70s , the heyday of prog as it is now known. At least as far as Renaissance is concerned, he's qualified his comment to after the 'live' album. Quite frankly, I find such an attack perverse. However, we must bear in mind that this comes from an enthusiast who has distiguished himself by allocating Curved Air's AIR CUT one star, an album that is currently rating a well underdone 3.74 [most posted reviews have it at 4 or 5]. Say no more. I think it's fair to assume he has gone out on a limb with Curved Air and for reasons known only to him, has chosen to lampoon a commonly accepted band of the 70s which many feel contributed much to the development of progressive music. This is largely by virtue of the contributions of well accepted players and luminaries of the era such as Francis Monkman, Darryl Way, Eddie Jobson, Mike Wedgwood, Tony Reeves, Kirby Gregory and others not to mention Sonja Kristina. Not a bad list. I don't know, maybe I'm the perverse one, but I rather think not!! Erik has mentioned the Sex Pistols. The album that bears the most blame for killing prog was 'Never Mind The Bollocks' imo and that wonderful tune 'God Save the Queen'. I was in London at the time of it's release and it spread like the plague......sadly and rapidly. It was a marketing coup, I'll give them that. I knew the progressive days were numbered when I went to see GRYPHON at the Marquee in early 77 supporting some band with a female lead singer deriving her name from 'Susan' and an incogruous take on an American Indian tribe, with a backing group in the same vein called, you guessed it, 'The Banshees'. Are you with me? ? 
What an abortion of a bill. Needless to say, I lasted just one song of the main act and went away thinking how lucky I had been to see Gryphon in full flight  ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 01:41
|
^ This could be a fun thread idea: Most Incongruous Double Bill".
I saw Stevie Ray Vaughn opening for Men At Work back '83 or '84. |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 02:03
|
Wait, how could The Wall have killed prog? It's good, it's proggy AND it's their biggest seller behind Dark Side. Whistler confoosed... ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: kingdhansak
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 03:18
|
I was expecting to see a list of mid to late 70's punk related LP's listed here! Prog never died, it was just badly wounded in this period. Punk obviously played a big part in that. You have to remeber certain acts were still selling well from 1976 onwards: Yes, Floyd, Tull, etc. Have however voted for ELP here I'm afraid as prog dilikers/haters that I know, curse ELP as being the most pretensious and goddam awful of the lot! I of course argue the case strongly. Love beach however is just woeful. It did kill ELP but not prog as a whole!
I have noticed recently due to a growing interest in the punk era (I know, dont hate me!) That many of the successful and large acts (Clash, Stranglers, Damned) dont seem to mind prog, their roots are in it after all. Only one band, the Sex Pistols seem to keep driveling on about how bad prog was. IMO the Sex Pistols were based so much on image and hardly anything on music.
Rant over now!
 |
Posted By: iguana
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 03:20
|
out of the list i'd say “works 1“ by E.L.P. – but it must certainly by TftO by
YES, that did the job – they completely lost it on there and nobody could relate to it anymore. remember, prog rock wasn't such an elitist thing but very much a music made by people for people! albums like AttwT and 90125 that constantly appear on lists like these have really ensured it's survival. but i'll happily second that prog was never dead in the first place. it just started to smell funny  ------------- progressive rock and rural tranquility don't match. true or false? |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 04:58
|
If the members of The Sex Pistols would have showed more interest in the lyrics and music of Animals (in my opinion a great and very compelling album with lots of emotion), they would have worn t-shirts with "I love Pink Floyd" instead of "I hate Pink Floyd" because Pink Floyd and The Sex Pistols shared a venomous and very dark view on society and agressive overtones in the music, the difference was 'a few chords' and 'some layers of keyboards' So I don't think that Animals or The Wall or The Final Cut killed prog, Roger Waters was slowly killing Pink Floyd in those days
! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 05:06
|
^ of course, John Lydon has since "come-out" as a Van Der Graaf fan ------------- What? |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 05:43
Of course prog didn't actually die, but those (not you Jamas) taking a bite at this notion must take this very notion with a grain of salt and third degree humour.
I think you nailed it right. These were indeed the first nails in prog's coffin!! 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 05:59
Animals is certainly not a prog death throes album, as it spat its bile at society like no punks could've possibly done so!
Again some very worthwhile comments from Dean!
Actually Punk became a phenomenon in France first. They even created the first punk festival in Mont De Marsan in August 76 with The Damned headlining. There was even a French bassist as the only real punk in the Stranglers >> JJ Burnell was not only all attitude, but a real brawler too.
But to come back to the competion between SMBWMP (Stupid Mindless Brutish Weekly Musical Press) was really the main culprit. They simply had to be ahead of the other two weeklies and pushed the hype to almost anything and once adopted by the public, they derided it to jump on something else.
NME created the punk craze by complete hype and it sets MM and Sounds back to the drawing boards. MM came back over a year later with the post-punk or "new wave" , while Sounds created the NWOFBHMB phenomenon. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 06:09
|
Prog never died. It sure was hurt, but like with all other music, it was/is hurt first and foremost by the people who:
- don't want to find something better than the stuff they listen to regularly (not believing anything better exists?) - having come accross the better stuff, refuse to listen to it, for some reason. The man in the street is even more to blame than radio DJs and the like. (throws a brick at a random person in the street) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 06:15
You're right , there is a preverse attack on CA , but this group cumulates everything hatable about prog: the classical borrowings (come on: Vivaldi !!! Puhleaeaease!!
), a female singer that can't handle singing in tune (please don't deny), a complete lack of energy (no wonder Darryl Way left this band stricken by stupor), sleep inducing symphonic rock (this is why I am a moderate fan of Camel, Greenslade, Renaissance and a few more of those "mellow" bands) etc...And I don't see why I would be more apt at judging Renaissance, Pendragon or Univers Zero rather than Curved Air.
Another reason why I don't like much that group is that they named themselves after a groundbreaking album (Terry Riley's absolute masterpiece A Rainbow In Curved Air): if you're going to make such a reference , the least you could do is be adventurous and groundbreaking. and CA was neither.
And he's actually admitted that his I hate Floyd T-shirt was an attention grabber, for his group to grab a bit of sunshine. These new groups had to fight to gain their spot in the sun. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Firefly
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 06:30
I'm with Progtologist here...
|
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 07:18
|
Of course it started to fade maybe in 1975-6.And in 1982 with tis magnificent(???) album(Asia) by this magnificest(???) band(Asia) the gravestone was put...
|
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 07:23
|
Well, Sean Trane, you definitely mistake Sonja Kristina's singing style. She is certainly not the chick that sings "beautifully", but neither is it her intention. Which is why I like her voice. I hate these chicks who try to sing "beautifully", that's why I am no fan of Renaissance, for example. As to "stealing from classical music": Come on, Sean, you can't be serious! Shall I list how many other groups did that, including (for example) Yes (just look at the REALLY awful "Cans and Brahms" on "Fragile".) ELP were of course the masters of that, but there is hardly a prog band without a nod towards classical composers, at least in the early 70s. The "Sheherazade" suite of Renaissance. The Nice! Procol Harum! Shall I go on? ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: meinmatrix
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 07:45
It has got to be Yes - 90125 because for me, growing up in the 80's, it made this prog dinosaur band look like it's just another pop band playing hits similar like Police. Genesis was still prog even when they released songs like Mama et cetera. Marillion was going very strong in the post-Genesis department. So for me, being a teenager of 80's, Yes was definately the death toll of fresh and inspirational prog. And last straw was when Fish left Marillion. That killed my interest in current prog music for years. ------------- 
|
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 07:57
|
I like Curved Air a lot, personally. Their first four albums get regular plays from me.
Those UK journalists- Charles Shaar Murray especially- get on my nerves because they are often more pompous than the music they are criticising. BTW, CSM got a lot of hefty online criticism after his appearances on that 'Seven Ages Of Rock' series. The words regularly used to criticise his accounts on that series were, ahem, 'pompous' and 'pretentious'. Oh, the irony.
Personally, I think prog's bleakest years were the late 80s, before Dream Theater's (who are a pretty consistently big selling act, it seems) emergence. The 90s and 00s have been more steady, imho- perhaps coinciding with the rise of the internet and CD reissues. And really, I personally don't think punk fared any better during the mid to late 80s, anyway.
I don't think Genesis ever completely gave up the ghost-'Mama', 'Home By The Sea', 'Domino', 'Tonight Tonight Tonight' (only the album version though) and 'The Brazilian' have hints of their 70s glory days, imho. I was delighted that most of these got played on their recent tour.
|
Posted By: Man Erg
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 08:03
|
No vote because...
In an obscure way,the album that killed prog for me was VdG's Quiet Zone/Pleasure Dome.Not in a negative way,I loved the album on it's release and still do, but because Hammill had embraced the punk zeitgeist and applied it to his material. Gabriel did something similar on PG II (Scratch).Quiet Zone... lead me into new territories,i.e. New Wave.Bands like Joy Division,Magazine and Pere Ubu became more 'important' musically to me.When Genesis brought out Duke and then ABACAB,the game was up for me.I put my 'prog-ears' into storage for quite a few years. ------------- 
Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
Posted By: meinmatrix
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 08:12
This is so sad, because the very same happened for me, not particularly because of Genesis, but all of the big names in general. Then i went for metal and blues (Stevie Ray Vaughan anyone), only to re-discover prog when Marillion released Brave and Marbles, and Dream Theatre with its followers breaking loose with this neo-prog movement. -------------
|
Posted By: Man Erg
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 08:26
Yes.Quite a few of the 'major' players started to release,let's say,'material a bit below par.' I gradually came to listen to prog a bit more a few years later when the NWOBHM (New Wave of British Heavy Metal) came onto the scene. -------------
Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 08:26
Prog will never die! That's the spirit!
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 08:29
I'm not much of a beautiful female voice (ala Haslam >> in the genre I much preferred Jane Relf) man either. I much prefer the folk rock female singers than all of those Gothic "godesses" or those Lucassen muses.
I love Janis Joplin, I love Madeleine Bell and my favorite Grace Slick plus countless other female belters, so why do I not like Sonja?
I simply think she sings badly. While staying in a normal range, she can give the illusion she's a good singer, but as soon as it gets tricky, she can't control some of her frequencies and it goes awry (curdles milk instantly
  ) And accessorily I don't like Babe Ruth's Janita Haan's singing as well >> maybe you'll see where I am getting at, with this analogy
I never said the opposite!
But The Nice, Procol and The Moody Blues did that in 67/8 (and CA did that in 72/3). And while I like those early albums, it doesn't mean I don't accept it for everyone.
Emerson (as imperfect as he was) was a bold adaptor of classical masters and usually chose more difficult composer (Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev , Moussorgsky etc). And I don't think that much more of Wakeman and Jon Lord really
Well it's mostly Monkman's doing that I don't like much CA: Monkman chose to rip-off easy-listening composer like Vivaldi and Mozart, then made the whole band sound close to easy-listening.
Then I shall not get this arguments against the Dutch groups who regularly plundered classical music >> Finch, Focus, then the shameless Ekseption and Trace and in the same genre, Monkman's very own Sky
.------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 10:11
This goes to show everyone is different. Duke was out for a couple years before I started getting into Genesis. I considered Duke to be a great Prog album and was a real help in getting me into Prog.
-------------
|
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 11:03
|
Maybe prog must died at that time, because that was the way it worked, in music....... Prog had its golden era in the 70's, so, in the 80's, the ideas definitely ended, in mostly of progressive music...... to came back in the middle of the 90's, IMO a better decade than the previous. Even as progheads, we must face that prog must dissapeared for a while to let the other genres get the mainstream.... (such as punk, arena rock, metal, etc.). I didn't vote. ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: XTChuck
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 11:30
AMEN
|
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 11:51
... and a Krautrock fan, particularly of Can, in common with a lot of early punks.
Pete Shelley of the Buzzcocks wrote the sleeve notes for Can's Cannibalism compilation, and the Buzzcocks song Sitting Around At Home sounds uncannily like Bel Air! ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 12:00
It was the same for me - I succumbed to the darkside, but to me PG2 (my favorite Peter Gabriel album) and Hammill's solo stuff from PH7 from the early eighties were just a continuation of prog into the 80's.
Also, wasn't Susan Ballion and her band of Native Americans doing a 10 minute version of The Lords Prayer with more than a nod towards Can & Neu! not just a little bit progressive for a bunch of punks? ------------- What? |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 12:16
|
I won't comment is prog alive or not - either can be discussed about rock and roll in general. Using the biological term "death" for something so abstract as a musical movement could always be intrerpreted in any way you like. As for the end of the golden era - none of listed albums are responsible - and, in a way, all of them a little bit. Add punk to the whole picture - and punk is actually (in a way only) a prog's baby - because it was a reaction - and we are one step closer to the end of an era. But it's not punk's fault at all - as someone mentioned, bad journalism did it. Without people who were making abstract "tendencies" there would be no "antagonism" between genres, and wouldn't have to wait for The Mars Volta to hear the fusion between prog and punk, because it was proved hundred of times that it could be done properly - just listen to the Ayers/Cale/Eno/Nico's "1974", for example. As a sidenote: As for the album that eventually could make 70's proghead thinking "I'm sick of it all" my candidate is Soft Machine's live record, ironically called "Alive And Well". Prog at its worst. ------------- |
Posted By: Radar Love
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 12:22
And The There Were Three without a doubt. A collection of three minute pop songs.And woeful one's at that
|
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 12:29
Hmmm...let's see
"Down And Out" (Tony Banks/Phil Collins/Mike Rutherford) – 5:25
"Undertow" (Tony Banks) – 4:46 "Ballad Of Big" (Tony Banks/Phil Collins/Mike Rutherford) – 4:49 "Snowbound" (Mike Rutherford) – 4:29 "Burning Rope" (Tony Banks) – 7:09 "Deep In The Motherlode" (Mike Rutherford) – 5:13 "Many Too Many" (Tony Banks) – 3:30 "Scenes From A Night's Dream" (Tony Banks/Phil Collins) – 3:29 "Say It's Alright Joe" (Mike Rutherford) – 4:19 "The Lady Lies" (Tony Banks) – 6:05 "Follow You, Follow Me" (Tony Banks/Phil Collins/Mike Rutherford) – 3:59 Three 3-minute songs? Most of which are Prog. I think you have the wrong album. FYFM is about the only pop song on there. -------------
|
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 12:32
| Totally agree- ATWTT is still generally a prog album, imho, just a more concise one than earlier albums. And FYFM is a great pop tune, loved hearing it on the recent tour with Phil singing and drumming simultaneously. |
Posted By: Man Erg
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 12:40
Indeed,she/they was/were. Join Hands,the second album,definately has a proggish feel to it. -------------
Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
Posted By: White Shadow
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 15:02
|
I think I just threw up in my mouth ------------- [signature] |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 16:28
You have your dates wrong, Sean Trane. Vivaldi is on their debut album, which is from 1969 (and not, as the database falsely says, from 1970). So please treat them fairly. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 17:28
It's interesting that this "Curved Air" discussion came up when it did, because I was one click away from ordering their first album, on the advice of someone who claimed they are an incredibly awesome prog band, especially live. Now it appears they have their rather strong-willed detractors. Oh well, I'm going to buy their CDs anyway  ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: convocation
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 18:35
|
Reply to forum: What album made you realize progressive rock is dead?<p> First, Progressive rock is not dead. Progressive Rock is a musical enterprise that is constantly changing, sometimes for the better, others for the worse. One of the main pillars that distinguish this form of rock is that it always endeavors to fuse different musical forms and styles, instrument arrangements, vocals, and sounds from everyday experience - both human and non-human activity – together. Progressive rock is self-inventive and eclectic. So if you understand what Progressive Rock is, then the question is pure non-sense. There are still endless musical threads for musicians to follow. The central bands that sprung up in the sixties and seventies left unfinished trails to for later generations to explore.<p> Second, progressive rock is at a somewhat low right now. So what! It is human nature to seek to attach blame anywhere but upon itself, when it is deserved. The teaming gut-following Masses are to blame for the low. It’s simple economics, pay for good music when you find it and don’t when it’s bad. A great example is the experiments that recording companies are financing with Progressive Heavy Metal. Metal is brutal and clumsy in its attempts at expressing rebellion…the age-old emotion of every new generation. There is always money be made here, and the wrecking crews of poor excuses for musicians mistake the actions of the naïve hoards with poor taste turning out their pockets as confirmation of their delusion of possessing talent. Progressive Metal is a still-born child for nearly all who tinker with it. A few exceptions are Robert Fripp and his collaborators.<p> Finally, baring the exceptional, I’m willing to bet that new music listeners, in their own self satisfaction, presume that they have it all sorted out. To quote out of context, musical attitudes tend to follow the dictum: “I like what I know and I know what I like”. Good musical taste comes from first listening with an open mind and articulating ones sorting process and revising that process over time; eventually, then, following ones instincts can sometimes be a sensible approach. I wouldn’t be surprised if Prog Metal fans use the opposite approach. To the others, recognizing that Progressive rock is not static and bands and artists always come and go, and being a good listener, can reveal that what you might have passed off as not fitting a rigid mold and therefore not worthy of more time, might have been a progressive rock gem staring you right in the eye.<p> Progressive Rock can only die if the audience kills it. |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 18:44
|
Journey to the Centre of the Earth is one of the most outstanding albums that made people laugh at prog during the 80's decadence. Nothing killed it though, and much current prog I love as much as 70's "classics". ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 20:06
|
Well, we CURVED AIR fans are not going to be able to influence Sean after all this time. BaldFriede, I and others will be peeing against the wind on this one.
Yes, at times, Sonja can be a little pitchy, however, I saw her live with CA almost too many years back to recall [in 77 at Warwick University] and as a bit of a stickler for 'in tune ' vocals, I was far from offended. I was impressed with her power [not to mention her revealing costume]. A good test of any vocalist is in live and exposed performance imo. By exposed I mean with minimal backing and no help from effects - as jazz singers regularly perform . On the CA 'Masters From the Vault' DVD , which, I concede, is not all that great unles you are a fan, she handles the folkish ballad 'Melinda More or Less' where she accompanies herself on acoustic guitar extremely well- nice mood, feel and absolutely no pitch problems there albeit a little emotionless in delivery. As an unabashed fan of 'Air Cut', on that album [ which I highly recommend ] she is successful in capturing many moods - hard rocking to soft and ethereal again, without pitch problems. In saying that, the live versions of 'Propositions' I have heard do demonstrate what Sean is talking about. Harsh, strident and pitchy, but you can't dismiss her as a singer just for that. Many successful vocalists have limited ranges and write songs or have them written within that range. For instance, there are few who can cross over from alto to soprano or baritone to tenor without some limtations becoming evident. As I understand it, Sonja did a successful stint in the demanding arena of high level music theatre after her rock days, where soloists are often 'exposed' in their singing roles. Now, she can't be that bad.... Really!! That she 'crossed the line ' into music theatre is an apposite example or , if you like, symptom of what was happening in progressive music at the time . As I regularly say, musicians have to make a living too you know. But to suggest all Curved Air albums should be on a list of albums that bear some responsibilty for killing prog , sir , I won't have it! ! ! [If sub- par singing is a test of this, what is Andy Tillison doing to prog with his band 'The Tangent'. Let's get Guy Manning on the job more before prog comes crashing down. { Sean , is that perverse or what....}]! [P.S. - Bluetailfly - read the reviews for some guidance. The Second Album is nice, but the young Jobson influenced 'Air Cut' is outstanding in my view]. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: honganji
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 20:36
Prog rock is still alive, but there have been frequently produced disappointed / boring / spoiled albums. 
King Crimson - Discipline
When it was released in 80s, many old Crimson fans were shocked by the differences from past sound. It was frequently blamed. But today, this is not so punished than 1980s. I don't think it's a boring album. (but also not masterpiece in my opinion
 ) Gentle Giant - Giant For A Day
"Giant Size Error"
Once it was called by such severe comment. Is it so bad album ? Genesis - A Trick of the Tail
Is it boring album ? My favorite period is Phil Collins vocal period until Seconds Out. This is one of the recommended albums for newbies to Genesis.
ELP - Love Beach
NUGAAAAA!
This is very different from general ELP fans wish for them. I wonder why ELP made such lukewarm album.... It spoils ELP's history. If ELP didn't release any albums prior to it, how many proggers say this is a remarkable new issue? Pink Floyd - The Wall
This album is frequeltly divided into two opinions (positive/negative). I think it is one of the most controversial albums in prog scene. But not bad.
Yes - Tormato
Sorry, I don't own it.
By the way, the most dissapointed album is La Caja / Vayas Donde Vayas. This is entirely different sound from Caja De Pandora. When I purchased it in the middle of 1980s, I was suffered by acute headache worse than (by my compatibility) Love Beach.
 Also I have very strange compatibilty to New Trolls. Except UT, there's no favorite album by the group. I can't understand myself .... For example, Concerto Grosso Per I is very dissapointed album. Atomic System is unacceptable .... Sorry, fans of New Trolls.
 But UT is very excellent album!  I'm a big fan of Italian progressive rock. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 20:38
|
I've always loved Sonja Kritina's voice - I saw her play a solo gig in the early eighties and she had no problems keeping in tune. ------------- What? |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 20:48
|
Quite. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 20:49
| If you don't know which one I picked, you haven't read my Love bech review. Instead of Tormato, I would have opted for Big Genereator for Yes, which I also had a fun time reviewing. |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 21:06
Either way it's a crappy album!  -------------
|
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 19 2007 at 21:09
| Not remotely as bad as Invisible Touch or We Can't Dance |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: July 20 2007 at 00:22
|
Well yeah, but it was the terrible beggining to the disgusting end. -------------
|
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: July 20 2007 at 00:33
|
Wow, "Love Beach" is leading the list...... I gotta get that album! xD
------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: July 20 2007 at 00:39
So, I'm not the only one who suddenly feels that way... ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 20 2007 at 00:55
That's the spirit ! Always listen for yourself, even if an artist has severe detractors. This thread - and the whole site - is a perfect example. According to some, many great albums aren't worth owning (or appreciating). The opposite is true as well, i.e.; I don't care for Harmonium's 'Si On Avait..', but it is considered a classic and must hear. ... and ATTWT is a very, very good record. Even Abacab has some terrific moments. |