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Joined: October 17 2005
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Topic: Tears for Fears, prog at least related? Posted: August 01 2007 at 22:26
Today I was listening again to "The Seeds of Love" and I really wonder why they are not included here, at least as prog related. I can hear that it's not very experimental, new etc. but the music hold a lot of quality. In my opinion they should be here under prog related or even Art Rock. The best the '80 had to offer! I checked and there is only one thread about them (around December 2006) without asking really if they should be included here. So...what is your opinion? I think they should be included in prog related.
Edited by Soul Dreamer - August 01 2007 at 22:28
To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
Joined: October 17 2005
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Posted: August 01 2007 at 22:45
^^^ Difficult t interprete that. Most collabs think they are not prog. But do they think also they are not prog related? That would amaze me very much, since I think a lot of their work is strongly prog-related (or prog sometimes). just listen to "Batman's Song", "Swords and Knives" and "Woman in Chains" of "the Seeds of Love" album....
To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Posted: August 01 2007 at 22:57
Well, Guillermo made a very good case pro the inclusion:
Their first album is more or less a "conceptual album" inspired by
the "Primal Scream" psychotherapy. It is called "The Hurting" and it
was released in 1983. It has a cover with a child apparently crying.
Both Roland Orzabal and Curt Smith were followers of the "Primal
Scream" theories of Arthur Janov (like John Lennon, who had this kind
of treatement in 1970, and recorded his "Plastic Ono Band" album the
same year inspired by this psychotherapy). Both Orzabal and Smith, who
met at 13 years old, were members of disfunctional families, so this
was the main inspiration for this album, with all songs composed by
Orzabal. Yes, the music in the album is more Pop Rock oriented, but it
is like "Intellectual Pop", with some good arrangements.
Their second album, the more successful called "Songs from the Big
Chair" (1985) is another more or less "conceptual album", Pop oriented
too. It is also somewhat inspired by the film "Sybil", which story is
about a woman who suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder. Again, it
is "Intellectual Pop", but both albums have the Prog rock influence at
least by the "conceptual albums" idea. The music also has the
influences of several styles, one of the characteristics of Art Rock.
There are also some Political criticisms. "The song called "Shout" is
one of those criticisms.
"The Seeds of Love" is, IMO, a good example of Art Rock, with
influences from The Beatles, Soul Music, Jazz-Rock, Pop Rock, etc. The
song "Sowing the Seeds of Love" also has critics to Politicians
(Margaret Thatcher, for example). It is a very good album. A "five
stars album" for my taste.
After their 1990 tour, which was closed with the Knebworth
Festival concert, Smith left the band. Orzabal continued recording
albums using the Tears for Fears name.
Good albums too ("Elemental" (1993) and "Raoul and the Kings of Spain"
(1995)). The "Raoul.." album is another more or less "conceptual album"
about Orzabal`s family. Orzabal`s ancestors were a mix of English,
French and Spanish roots.
After having less success alone as Tears
for Fears, Orzabal released one solo album in 2001 under his own name,
called "Tomcats screaming outisde" or something like that, with even
less success.
Curt Smith released a solo album called "Soul on Board" (1993),
which wasn`t released in the U.S. because he didn`t like it because he
doesn`t consider it as a good representation of his style of music. It
was only an album recorded to finish his contract with the label. This
album was released in my country and in other countries like England.
It is even more Pop Rock than TFF and not so bad as Smith considers it.
He years later released an album called "Mayfield" (1998), the name of
his band (the name "Mayfield" is a joke really... "Curt is Mayfield").
He also released an E.P. called "Aeroplane" in 1999 or 2000 under his
own name. These last releases were done by his own label called
Zerodisc. All albums without success.
By early 2000, Orzabal and Smith were friends again, and by 2005
they released another album as TFF, called "Everybody Loves a Happy
Ending".
If you consider this band as a Prog band or not, I suggest you to enjoy their music. It`s good anyway.
But the experts mostly said no.
Hugues wrote:
Seeds Of love and the album it came about is still far away from prog-related.
The rest.............. Except strangely enough for that Shout track
Professor Rideout wrote:
No-- not all good music is prog, or "related."
If TFF got in, it'd be the "thin edge of the wedge" -- oodles of
other creative bands from that era would soon be up for consideration.
etc...
If Seeds Of Love is the only album that qualifies, then it's not enough(has to be two) but don't forget good music isn't necesarily prog.
Joined: October 17 2005
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Posted: August 01 2007 at 23:13
^^^ I agree very much with Guillermo, especially on "The Seeds of Love" album. I agree that the rest is somewhat less, but that album alone merits inclusion!
To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Posted: August 02 2007 at 08:27
Kotro wrote:
And somehow Godley and Cream are accepted... Strange world, this one...
...There is no relationship between Godley and Creme (who produced a three-disc progressive concept album called Consequences) and Tears For Fears. TFF are more closely related to Talk Talk (in terms of music, era and genre), however TT were not included here for their Pop albums, but for their last three progressive-influenced albums.
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Posted: August 02 2007 at 09:02
darqdean wrote:
Kotro wrote:
And somehow Godley and Cream are accepted... Strange world, this one...
...There is no relationship between Godley and Creme (who produced a three-disc progressive concept album called Consequences) and Tears For Fears. TFF are more closely related to Talk Talk (in terms of music, era and genre), however TT were not included here for their Pop albums, but for their last three progressive-influenced albums.
Which are post rock albums "avant la lettre"
As for G&C, they were accepted the day 10 CC was accepted since G & C were the more progressive of the quartet.
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: March 22 2006
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Posted: August 02 2007 at 10:32
I like their music very much - but Prog-related?
I would say Roland Orzabal (who f.e. worked with Nick D'Virgilio) could be a candidate but Curt Smith?
It's a fundamental problem with this category and we must pay attention - ("a wide subgenre") - many many artists have some relations to prog ...
But are TEARS FOR FEARS fitting into the PA definition of prog-related?
Are they clearly influenced by Progressive Rock?
I don't think this matches ...
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Posted: August 14 2007 at 01:53
Soul Dreamer wrote:
Today I was listening again to "The Seeds of Love" and I really wonder why they are not included here, at least as prog related. I can hear that it's not very experimental, new etc. but the music hold a lot of quality. In my opinion they should be here under prog related or even Art Rock. The best the '80 had to offer! I checked and there is only one thread about them (around December 2006) without asking really if they should be included here. So...what is your opinion? I think they should be included in prog related.
Your argument pretty sumarizes the problem here.
Many Progheads tend to believe that quality music or the best a decade had to offer has to be Prog, that's not a reason or an argument. Just ask this questions:
Are they good? Yes they are
Are they the best the 80's had to offer? Possible but i don't believe so
This two questions are refered to the quality of the music, it may be good. even a masterpiece or the best of a decade, but they may be Pop, Jazz, Disco, Punk, etc etc.
The only question that matters is:
Are they Prog or Prog Related? The answer is evident, not in a million years, quality or concept are not synonymous of Prog.
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Posted: August 14 2007 at 06:04
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Soul Dreamer wrote:
Today I was listening again to "The Seeds of Love" and I really wonder why they are not included here, at least as prog related. I can hear that it's not very experimental, new etc. but the music hold a lot of quality. In my opinion they should be here under prog related or even Art Rock. The best the '80 had to offer! I checked and there is only one thread about them (around December 2006) without asking really if they should be included here. So...what is your opinion? I think they should be included in prog related.
Your argument pretty sumarizes the problem here.
Many Progheads tend to believe that quality music or the best a decade had to offer has to be Prog, that's not a reason or an argument. Just ask this questions:
Are they good? Yes they are
Are they the best the 80's had to offer? Possible but i don't believe so
This two questions are refered to the quality of the music, it may be good. even a masterpiece or the best of a decade, but they may be Pop, Jazz, Disco, Punk, etc etc.
The only question that matters is:
Are they Prog or Prog Related? The answer is evident, not in a million years, quality or concept are not synonymous of Prog.
Iván
That is the essence of the problem. Some bands from the Lost Decade (the 80's) may have had suppressed Prog sensibilities, but the real test came when the commercial pressure not to be stigmatised by the Prog label was removed, did they actually become progressive? One or two bands did, but most, including TFT, did not - they continued to follow their existing paths, trying to recreate their earlier pop sucesses.
There were dozens of great bands in the Lost Decade, great quirky, boundary pushing bands, bands who had the talent to be progressive and probably would have been if the paradigm shift at the end of the 70's had not occured, but in general they faded and died before realising their prog potential. The decade threw up some wonderful music mavericks (Mark Hollis, Siouxsie Sioux, Robert Smith, Toyah, Jullian Cope, David Silvian, Ian McNabb, Mark Sandman, John Foxx, Roland Orzabal et al) who dipped their toes in the pool of prog but never took the full-body-immersion plunge.
Twenty years on - if those bands went Prog, we would know about them and they would be gracing the pages of this site like bands such as Marillion and IQ who swam against the tide do.
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Posted: August 14 2007 at 21:14
@ Dean: David Sylvian is included our database, in Art Rock - a fully prog subgenre. He collaborated with various prog artists, including Robert Fripp and Holger Czukay of Can. I've got two of his solo albums, "Brilliant Trees" and "Secrets of the Beehive", which are undoubtedly prog, even if of course not of the symphonic bent.
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Posted: August 15 2007 at 05:47
Ghost Rider wrote:
@ Dean: David Sylvian is included our database, in Art Rock - a fully prog subgenre. He collaborated with various prog artists, including Robert Fripp and Holger Czukay of Can. I've got two of his solo albums, "Brilliant Trees" and "Secrets of the Beehive", which are undoubtedly prog, even if of course not of the symphonic bent.
I knew that I got carried away and typed his name without thinking, and of course Japan are listed here too - but as Rain Tree Crow.
Joined: July 20 2007
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Posted: August 15 2007 at 05:59
For me no. Because in the 80's the only True POP synonimous of True Prog is represented by Franco Battiato's music. This because Battiato produced an Avant Garde POP And this is one of the foundations of Prog music.
When the love becomes poetry, distant from the eyes
(Quando l'Amore Diventa poesia/ Lontano Dagli occhi [Aphrodite's Child)
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Posted: August 15 2007 at 06:01
Ely78 wrote:
For me no. Because in the 80's the only True POP synonimous of True Prog is represented by Franco Battiato's music. This because Battiato produced an Avant Garde POP And this is one of the foundations of Prog music.
Joined: July 29 2005
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Posted: August 15 2007 at 09:20
darqdean wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
@ Dean: David Sylvian is included our database, in Art Rock - a fully prog subgenre. He collaborated with various prog artists, including Robert Fripp and Holger Czukay of Can. I've got two of his solo albums, "Brilliant Trees" and "Secrets of the Beehive", which are undoubtedly prog, even if of course not of the symphonic bent.
I knew that I got carried away and typed his name without thinking, and of course Japan are listed here too - but as Rain Tree Crow.
Interesting info, Dean - we had Japan for months in the Art Rock chart, but couldn't decide for their addition. Then Micky and I left the team, and I think the current members rejected them. Now, I suppose it's time for a reassessment of their submission.
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Posted: August 15 2007 at 09:26
Ghost Rider wrote:
Interesting info, Dean - we had Japan for months in the Art Rock chart, but couldn't decide for their addition. Then Micky and I left the team, and I think the current members rejected them. Now, I suppose it's time for a reassessment of their submission.
Japan was indeed hold of short from a final decision and was finally casted out before you and micky left. The current team just stands by your decision of not approving for a good solid time, Japan in the Archives.
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Posted: August 15 2007 at 10:33
Japan are a good example of what I was saying in my post. They were a very good Art Pop/Rock band and had clearly evident progressive 'feelings' without actually being progressive, however successive albums were become more and more progressive - but they never really became a progressive Art Rock band in the accepted sense.
When they reformed in 1989/90 the result is a true Art Rock prog album. Karn, Barbieri and Jansen (and the record label) wanted to release the album as Japan, but Sylvian insisted they used the name Rain Tree Crow. If they had used the name Japan, then the transition would be complete, but they didn't.
It could be argued that Japan=RTC=Japan ... the music on RTC is different from Tin Drum (say) but not one million miles away; conversly you could say that different name = different band otherwise Simon Dupree and the Big Sound would be listed in the PA just because they changed their name to Gentle Giant.
Wikipedia lists RTC as just another Japan album, but when has Wiki ever been the arbiter of anything?
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