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purplepiper 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 23 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 280
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 Topic: The "problem" with prog metal
Posted: June 13 2007 at 01:40 |
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the problem with prog metal is that it is metal. I don't think that these two genres should be combined. I'm not sure why I feel this way, but i'm severely opposed to the idea of 'prog metal'. I think prog should be a genre free of such sub genre chains as metal or whatever...especially metal. Metal, in my opinion just doesn't belong anywhere near progresssive rock, good progressive rock anyway...
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for those about to prog, we salute you.
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Prophet
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 02 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 10
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Posted: May 16 2007 at 12:14 |
 Snow Dog wrote:
headphone wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
I think its popularity proves that wrong. |
Proves what? That MY OPINION IS WRONG???? |
Saying "It just doesn't work" is not an opinion...at least it doesn't read like one to me. If it is you are welcome to it. |
 Snow Dog, you just made my day perfect!  ... and that was just an opinion (in case you'll demand me to prove it really was a perfect day)
Edited by Prophet - May 16 2007 at 13:01
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: May 15 2007 at 15:39 |
It was me that said that "the seams show" Mike. Actually it was a quote from Dmitri Shostakovich.
Neither Cert nor I are that clever.
Edited by Trademark - May 15 2007 at 15:39
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21156
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Posted: May 15 2007 at 10:18 |
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^ some people have a problem with how prog and metal are combined in prog-metal ... I understand their point of view. Even the "traditional" prog metal bands (e.g. Dream Theater and the like) don't "implement" prog in a similar way that the classic "traditional" prog rock bands did (e.g. Genesis, Yes). I noticed this when Certif1ed described how The Musical Box is so superior to most prog metal tracks ... I know what he means and I agree - somewhat. The traditional (symphonic) prog rock artists had a way of making their tracks much more organic and "seamless" - variations on themes, whereas the typical prog metal approach (again exemplified by Dream Theater) is to construct a longer track from several parts which are then connected in more or less clever ways - as Cert put it: "the seams show". I don't mind too much, but - as I said above - I understand if some people do.
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Yontar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 131
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Posted: May 15 2007 at 10:17 |
headphone wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
"I think it's even more popular not to like prog-metal."
Prove it!
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Yeah!
There has been a total sell of 559689489745874587 records in a world
Only 745687364 of them has been prog-metal records. Its less than 0,000000000000000001 percent of the whole  |
the whole point of any kind of progressive music is not to sell lots of records or make yourself into a rock star, but to produce quality music that opens people's eyes to other forms of quality music. If prog-metal or prog in general was about record sales then alot of the bands would eventually begin to suck because of their attempts to make a popular sounding, catchy album. And by the way where did you get that statistic?
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basically in a few words, prog metal owns!
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Yontar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 131
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Posted: May 15 2007 at 10:06 |
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alot of bands in prog metal do allow the metal to become the sole focus of the band, but it is prog-metal, it was founded on metal, and has some prog elements to it. Alot of people expect prog-metal bands to all sound like dream theater, tool, or opeth, but in my opinion the genre in the first place was all about originality and producing something somewhat mind blowing to the listener. As you can see with many prog metal bands alot of the focus is musicianship before everything else, even songwriting. In my opinion you can't have a problem with prog-metal. You either have a problem with the prog or the metal not both.
Edited by Yontar - May 15 2007 at 10:08
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basically in a few words, prog metal owns!
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 17:37 |
cuncuna wrote:
The problem is allowing the metal part to take a higher predominance in the composition. Though listed as Rio/Avant prog band, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum sounds like prog metal should for me. Free form composition garnished with metalesque elements, but focused on producing original sounds instead of cloning a glam rock / heavy metal song with intrincated Kansas / ELP sections. |
So, just because you say so, it´s some kind of law...?
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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TheProgtologist
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
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Points: 27802
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 15:55 |
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Yontar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 131
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Posted: May 14 2007 at 15:40 |
Atomic_Rooster wrote:
The problem with prog metal is that it smells bad. |
kind of like cheese... that would explain why i like it lol
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basically in a few words, prog metal owns!
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emdiar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 05 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 890
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 13:42 |
you only get an ooo with Klaatoo.
Edited by emdiar - May 11 2007 at 13:45
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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Points: 7559
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 12:37 |
emdiar wrote:
If Prog be tea, then metal is surely forest fruit and damson.
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Nah - nothing so arty farty.
While Prog is Earl Grey, Lapsang Souchong or some other pretentious high-brow tea, metal is more like the stuff they serve up at greasy spoon cafes - the stuff that tastes just like cabbage scented gravy. You've got to be a bit of a headbanger to drink that stuff...
PG Tips is more yer Classic Rock.
Edited by Certif1ed - May 11 2007 at 12:39
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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emdiar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 05 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 890
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 09:23 |
Like so many of my country-men, as soon as I was weened from the breast I was brought up on a constant and relentless supply of strong, milky tea. Morning, noon and night, it was always time for a cuppa in our house, and "putting the kettle on" was the first step of any activity, and the panacea for all woes. The benefits of a colonial history went unquestioned.
As a result of this peculiarly British upbringing I have an undeniable addiction to, and love of tea. Good, strong, hot, milk 'n' two sugars, British building site Rosie Lee, The way God intended tea to be drunk.
Here on "the Continent" things are very different!! A typical conversation in a restaurant may go something like this:
waitress: Would you like some coffee, sir?
me: No thank you, I'd like some tea please.
waitress:Certainly sir, which flavour would you like?
me: Tea flavour.
waitress:Yes sir, but with which fruit taste? we have melon, banana, mango, passion fru...
me: Just bring some hot water, I've got my own tea flavoured tea. (reaching for my emergency PG Tips which I never leave home without.)
waitress:I'm afraid the charge will be the same, sir.
me: SO WHAT? I JUST WANT SOME DRINKABLE TEA, DAMN IT!(starting to loose it, having not had any tea for more than a couple of hours)
etc....
If Prog be tea, then metal is surely forest fruit and damson.
Edited by emdiar - May 11 2007 at 11:08
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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 08:08 |
As a broad genre, these are delicious -- but not for everyone.
(I'm allergic to most nuts, but I LOVE the sub-genre of almond ones!) 
Edited by Peter - May 11 2007 at 08:11
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 08:02 |
headphone wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Wow?
Can you expand on that? |
Allright...
WOW! |
! 
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 08:00 |
valravennz wrote:
Yes perhaps I was rather expansive in stating that progressive rock is a genre and I will concede that it does not have the same easily distinguished characteristics of eg: Rap, Country and Jazz.
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I don't believe that at all - it seems clear that Progressive Rock has many defining characteristics, but you're right that they're probably not straightforward - like the music itself!
It's a bit unfair to compare it with "top-level" genres like Jazz, though - there are many flavours of Jazz, including Progressive Jazz - and at the "top level" (ie Rock), it is easy to hear how Prog relates to its parent.
Progressive Rock IS a genre - albeit a very wide-ranging one. It's so wide-ranging that the discussion about Progressive Music (see other thread) is a useful one.
Progressive Metal is another genre - the parent being Metal.
But Metal is an odd case, because its "parent" is Rock, and as a genre, Metal has always had progressive and static bands (just like "vanilla" Rock) - so there is a relationship between Progressive Rock and Metal, albeit not a direct one.
I think that even hard-core fans of Classic Progressive Rock should explore the genre of metal - it has many surprises in its past that are very Prog-Related - and there is much in modern metal (Progressive or not) that is interesting.
That said, I also think that there's much that is progressive in other genres that shouldn't be written off as just "pop" or "dance" music.
Peter wrote:
Let's rename the site "(Relatively) Complex Music -- which isn't classical, jazz, country, punk, reggae, new wave, new age, disco, or rap -- Archives." Truth in advertising!
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I agree - there is a danger of taking it to extremes. 
Edited by Certif1ed - May 11 2007 at 08:02
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 07:56 |
Proletariat wrote:
Peter wrote:
Atomic_Rooster wrote:
But prog metal could introduce people to the more complex side of music, I suppose
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I certainly don't disagree with that, AR. I think we have seen (and indeed, read) that, over and over again here.
Let's rename the site "(Relatively) Complex Music -- which isn't classical, jazz, country, punk, reggae, new wave, new age, disco, or rap -- Archives." Truth in advertising!
(Note that I didn't include metal, jazz, folk or classic rock -- we've swallowed up and renamed those, already!) |
wait you named jazz then said you didn't
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Whoops -- my mistake!
Anyway, I don't mean PA has "annexed" those forms of music in their entirety -- just huge swathes of them.
(I think we might as well incorporate New Age music -- to me it bears much closer resemblance to classic "prog" than much of what has been added here.)
But whatever -- there's tons of good music here.
I do know, though, that the difficulty inherent in the wholesale, exact categorization of music causes a lot of problems and interpersonal tensions here. It is well-nigh impossible to achieve anything like consensus on such a subjective matter. 
Edited by Peter - May 11 2007 at 07:57
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 07:42 |
headcase wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Wow?
Can you expand on that? |
Allright...
WOW! |
Thought so.
And even mixing salty and sweet works, so you are wrong on more than one level.
Edited by Snow Dog - May 11 2007 at 07:57
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headphone
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 25 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 28
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 07:40 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Wow?
Can you expand on that? |
Allright...
WOW!
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valravennz
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: March 20 2005
Location: New Zealand
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Points: 2546
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 07:38 |
Peter wrote:
valravennz wrote:
Prog Metal encompasses different styles of Metal music. My preference is towards the symphonic, gothic type metal where more often than not there is structure in the music that IMO is closer to "progressive" rock music than some of the other styles.which incorporate large amounts of blast beat, thrash or speed and lots of "growls" in the vocal's department. I am not a big fan of that type of metal. I know many of you would disagree with my sentiments.
However, there is a place for metal in PA [though I am not sure that some artists included, should be here]. The progressive side of metal is at times quite brilliant and as it the current favourite among the younger proggers in particular, it's inclusion can be commended for helping to assist new and younger fans in furthering their appreciation of progressive rock music as a total music genre. |
Ah, but is "prog' (or even "progressive rock") really a "genre," in the same unified, easily-distinguishable sense that country, jazz, folk or rap are? I think not.
I have seen at least one of the most vocal, dedicated supporters of PM here state, in black and white, that prog metal is NOT prog (emphasis mine) and not a sub-genre of rock (as prog supposedly is), but of metal. Thus, it seems we have at least two distinct genres here. (I think we have more, but I really don't like categories, and the hair-splitting, over-categorization of music/art. There is one major, inescapable, necessary variable in the interpretation of all art: the audience (in music, the listener), and as each listener is unique, so is each response to the music.
Perhaps in the early years of the movement, "prog" was a single, broadly quantifiable genre, but I think the word is little more than an anachronism, and a highly subjective value judgment, now. The diversity of artist and music types artificially gathered here under the umbrella term "prog" is huge. (Even without venturing into "proto prog,'"or the inane, amorphous "prog related," (if it's good, it must be prog related!  ) we could easily name examples of supposed "prog" bands here whose overall sounds bear no resemblance to one another. Would that be true in a real, long-standing genre like jazz, or country?)
I think that more and more, prog basically equates to "good" here -- a matter of personal taste and interpretation.  |
Yes perhaps I was rather expansive in stating that progressive rock is a genre and I will concede that it does not have the same easily distinguished characteristics of eg: Rap, Country and Jazz. I still believe that Prog metal has certainly lead many of the younger PA members to exploring different areas within progressive rock music eg: Zeuhl, Krautrock, Folk, Canterbury and so on. I personally find that exploration of progressive rock music very exciting and it means that we older proggers can be assured that the progressive rock legacy will continue for a long time yet.
As you say Peter - prog besides equating to "good" is inevitably "a matter of personal taste and interpretation" and it is ok not to like or want to like Prog Metal or any other prog music form and hopefully this opinion can be respected by fellow PA members.
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"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence"
- Robert Fripp
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Snow Dog
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Posted: May 11 2007 at 07:34 |
headphone wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Saying "It just doesn't work" is not an opinion...at least it doesn't read like one to me. If it is you are welcome to it. |
Wow! |
Wow?
Can you expand on that?
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The "problem" with prog metal
