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Topic ClosedDoes anyone feel they can't play with oth

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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2007 at 03:30
In that case, I'd just like to point out that the techniques as well as the mindsets are completely different in Prog Rock: For example, the bands you mention all used standard song structure and short, repetitive phrases in non modulating, steady-beat songs utilising catchy melodies, with lyrics about boy-girl relationships or modern life as the basis of their careers - with few exceptions.
 
Prog Rock does not - the techniques used are the opposite of those I listed.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2007 at 19:36
Normal rock?  I would think most people on this site would think of rock that's not prog, such as Led Zeppelin, The Who, The Beatles, etc.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2007 at 12:49
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

What's "normal" rock?


Well I can tell you what it's not: abnormal rock

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Actually I have no idea what Sasquamo meant
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2007 at 12:48
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

I think that prog essentially requires the same techniques as normal rock, just a totally different mindset, and possibly more skill.




If people with different mindsets try to play together they would clash almost right away and one of them would have to compromise
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2007 at 12:46
What's "normal" rock?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2007 at 10:05
I think that prog essentially requires the same techniques as normal rock, just a totally different mindset, and possibly more skill.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2007 at 03:40
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

Getting someone that's into "normal" rock to play prog doesn't seem like it would be that much of a stretch.  If you think about it, prog's not that much different, it's not like you're asking them to play a completely different style from what they're comfortable with.


I think that you are wrong. Prog is way different from "normal" rock. Prog can have 20 minute long songs, not many normal rock bands have this. Prog (as my brother associates it with) has jazz influences, your average rock band has blues influences. Also the bassist in prog is usually more forward and in front, showing you his bass skill, but in rock the bassist isn't really in the spotlight as much or if ever.

So it is a big stretch to get someone to play something that is almost opposite in style.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2007 at 21:20
Getting someone that's into "normal" rock to play prog doesn't seem like it would be that much of a stretch.  If you think about it, prog's not that much different, it's not like you're asking them to play a completely different style from what they're comfortable with.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2007 at 19:51
On the original topic here, I joined a band right when I was getting into prog back three to four years ago.  All of us had something in common (that's also in common with prog): Symphony X.   We played as a three person band for a while, doing some 80's metal covers (Judas Priest, Dio, etc) and starting to write some songs.

When we added a bassist (when we were getting more and more into prog at that point), it just so happened that our friend who we wanted to play with us liked Muse, so we had that connection.  Lastly, we added a keyboardist and he loved everything we loved.

Now we're a five piece band, we've never lost a member, and we all love prog (except the bassist who does like some, but  we've been playing this stuff so long he doesn't want to stop).  We're now a "prog band", cause we don't do much that isn't in some way related to the genre(s). 

I guess I was a lucky one to have so many prog loving musicians around me, even if when we made the band we barely knew anything about it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2007 at 13:37
Hah - I've just noticed that ACID Express doesn't allow you to actually use FX plugins... so that negates any compression Cry
 
However, using something like this would allow for the exchange of ideas - I'm knocking up a little something in 11/4 and will stick it onto a shared drive for anyone interested.
 
It won't be anything polished, due to the lack of effects - but I'll try and do as much as I can in pre to get a reasonable sound, bearing in mind that anything written in ACID Express can easily be polished up in Pro (which is what we normally use).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 16:37
Certif1ed, thanks for the tips!  I love writing, playing and singing music, but I know very little about mixing.  I have done some reading, especially on noise reduction, but have mostly been flying blind when it comes to getting things to sound the way I want them to.

I did actually experiment with my sofware's compressor, but only on the vocal tracks.  I should have taken the hint when it made the vocals sound more clear, but I didn't.  Thanks for pointing this out!

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

The music sounds great, though - your singer has a beautiful voice that, in my opinon, sounds not unlike Annie Haslam (my favourite kind of tone) - but you need to spend as much time mixing as you do recording the instruments, if not more.


Thanks and thanks!  Annie Haslam is easily one of my favorite singers.

I definately do need to spend more time on these songs.  I tend to record, edit, and mix all in one night right now, and spend more time in the recording than mixing - apparently not the best thing to do.

It would be good to have a way to exchange music with fellow proggers over the internet.  There is a serious shortage of them within 100 miles of me.  The software I'm using right now is Cakewalk's Music Creator 3 (it only cost $30, hence why I've been using it).  I'll take a look at Sony's ACID express, though.  If it's free and good software, i'll download it.

progismylife  - it's good that you have people to jam with for fun.  I think the problem with me may just be where I live, and that most people around me tend to like very pop-oriented or hair-band type music.  Not my cup of tea.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 05:41
Hmm I jam with my brother and his friend a lot of times but not becasue they like prog (they dislike a lot of it Disapprove)

But since I can play almost at their level (I am a pretty bad bassist imo) we get into psychedelic jams and/or blues jams or even funk.

Every person I've played with I can jam perfectly with them because we are usually on the same skill level.

But I don't get to play what I want to play all the time so its a compromise when you jam with your brother or a friend who does not like prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 16:00
^Thanks - glad you enjoyed it!
 
Quick tip on your recordings - The voice cuts through well, but the instrumental arrangement gets very muddy, and it's not easy to pick out the position of the instruments.
 
Check your levels (use a little compression here and there, especially on the distorted guitar), and think about the kind of stereo (or even 3d) soundscape you're creating.
 
The music sounds great, though - your singer has a beautiful voice that, in my opinon, sounds not unlike Annie Haslam (my favourite kind of tone) - but you need to spend as much time mixing as you do recording the instruments, if not more.
 
 
I live in the UK, so a bit far away - but I'd like at some point to revive the old thread in which PA musicians were going to try to exchange stuff over the internet and try to get a bit of collaboration going that way.
 
If everyone used a common piece of software (e.g. SONY's ACID - the Express version of which is FREE to download), then we could just transfer ACID projects via one of the many free file storage sites - and exchange ideas that way.
 
Just a thought...
 


Edited by Certif1ed - April 25 2007 at 16:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:05
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Although I really have no problem with jamming with people who have different tastes and/or are below my level, people might have problem with me. I have realised that I am a pretty eccentric player.


Yeah, this tends to be the problem with me too, in a way.  I like to change time signatures and keys during a song, but no one else I've ever played music with does.  Then again, I live in a small town and everyone I've ever jammed with hates prog.  There just aren't enough people around.

Actually, the other members of my previous band made me take out all the nifty little things that made the music unusual... turned it into just plain old rock.   It was okay, but I got more and more disappointed as time went on.  I only managed to keep one song sounding even a little bit progressive.

The Lost Chord ... wow do I hear you.

Certif1ed  -  That sample you put up is amazing.  I wish I had that level of quality on my recordings.  You don't happen to live in MA, do you?  Eh, but my new project is supposed to be metal/prog anyways. If you (or anyone) is interested,  http://www.myspace.com/sonolumina  is currently just me recording different things multitrack, also just first takes (but because I don't have time to do more than that).   http://www.myspace.com/thejamexperimentband is my previous band that ended up not being ambitious enough for my taste.

I have an amazing singer lined up for Sonolumina, her voice is just superb with incredible range.  I wish I had a sample up with her voice in it, but I don't yet.  She's definately the easiest person to work with for me, though.  She offers suggestions without trying to just make things easier, and I usually take her advice.


Edited by StarsongAgeless - April 25 2007 at 14:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2007 at 09:20

I'm in a band where everybody's enthusiastic but enthusiasm is not all that counts. When I'm playing a brilliant keyboard solo I found out more than once that the guitars were once again to loud in the mix LOL .

Me and a guitar player in the band, we're going for some subtle stuff, playing some more complex chords. Others in the band are less subtle.
 
Well, it doesn't really matter. I like to play in a band, and there's still a lot of progression, musically, and our equipment gets better as well through the years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2007 at 08:58
Well. My last band/group was with these two professional jazz guys (drums and piano). I really felt like the worst player in that group (guitar/flute). Even though I have no problems learning the notes of new songs in some 5 minutes by heart, and I know my theory. Just not as much experience in playing. Even though all our own jazz songs were composed by me. Anyway, the jamming was always there, it's jazz after all. Sadly we had to break the band.

Then I was a singer in this one band. Now I noticed a complete difference in the way of jamming. THese guys had played for years and I was the new guy. Firstly, they were great players as well and had some splendid songs. But when it came to jamming, I took my guitar and played with them. But I realised they did it well, but completely different as I do. I'm used to playing long solos where I have time to build up the atmosphere and then bring it down for the nxt player, but it was all hectic with them, really short solos and everyone put out their best in it. I didn't really get the feeling into it.

Then my friend who is a drummer. We often jam together, but welack a bassist. though we know each other good enough, there's no problem knowing what the other one is thinking of. same goes to jamming with my brother too. He's a bassist, but doesn't live here, so no new Rush group here :P

I remember one of my friends. The guy is fast. He used to play symphony X all the time, but he's not very good at playing with others. Anyway, I find jamming with ther guitarists harder than with other instruments. But when I take my flute, then it's easier with a guitar.

Unless of course the other guitarist is a great player like my teacher. Then any mistake you make, he can hear it before you and change the chord behind it. He's amazing :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2007 at 03:47
I've been in loads of choirs and orchestras, and hate it when we have to rehearse pieces over and over because of the slow ones - there is nothing worse than note-bashing, as it ruins artistic creativity, IMO.
 
I read music like most people read books - I can hear it as I read the notes, and usually get it after the second or third time, if it's complex (there's always one or two "gotchas"). I also have perfect pitch, so I almost never sing a wrong note - I simply cannot do it, as it's part of my physical makeup.
 
I do, however hear others singing wrong notes, and try to make up ways for them to overcome the mistakes: Most people make the same mistakes over and over when they haven't "got" a piece of music - there's always a couple of gotchas that they constantly trip over, and recovery can take a while - if it happens at all.
 
The most complex piece I've ever performed was in a 20th century avante-garde style; 4 unaccompanied vocalists singing completely unrelated parts into 4 tape loops that fed into effects units. We were given the music at 9am, and had to perform it at 7pm the same day. Nothing like pressure, but we had to keep going over the other 3 parts until the singers could get close to the ideas.
 
It's the same in bands - if I write a riff or chord progression, I expect everyone to get it after a few iterations, not after a few weeks' jamming.
 
I now do all the guitars and most of the keyboards on the stuff I write - and it's all laid down in single takes, because it sounds best when it's fresh, even when there are execution issues.
 
I'm also in a singing group, trying to teach them Barbershop harmony... I must like coaching people, or I wouldn't do it... Wink
 
I, too, am an incredibly arrogant sod who finds it difficult to play with others because my expectations, demands and standards are always set unrealistically high - and that includes of my own music, even if it doesn't sound like it! - sample here: http://www.sectionzmusic.com/player.asp?ispath=featured%2FCERTIF1ED+%2D+DISTURBED%2Emp3&rtitle=DISTURBED&rartist=CERTIF1ED.
 
Please note that we've possibly spent 5-6 hours total time on this piece, and everything is a single take (with minor editing for consistency, and the odd bit of copy and paste, because of time constraints).
 
Now you can tell me that it's nothing to be arrogant about... LOL


Edited by Certif1ed - April 23 2007 at 03:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 10:49
I have a bassist friend, and even though he's into prog, he can hardly play his freaking instrument. I swear, the kid can't play 'La Grange' by ZZ Top in 4/4. I'm not sure about the rest of us, though. We can't play Black Sabbath's 'War Pigs' anymore, because even though everyone else had mastered it, our bassist didn't know when to come in.
 
It's like some people don't even listen to the song they're playing...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 07:55
Originally posted by The Lost Chord The Lost Chord wrote:

 
Honestly, I am openly very forceful and viscious when it comes to playing with other people.  If i dont like how you play I cant play with you, simple as.  I cant simply TEACH someone how awesome prog is and how they SHOULD be playing more like bruford than the drum beat to a britney spears song.


Heh sometimes I have more trouble trying to get our drummer to not play like Bruford. Sometimes I need a steady rhythm to grasp hold of. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2006 at 21:58
I've experienced that MANY times. Me and a friend of mine started a band when we were 11-12 years old. I was deeply into Genesis and King Crimson at that time and only wanted to play that. The other band memebr didn't understand a thing when I played som 7/8, 9/8 time-signatures for them. So we played some Deep Purple and AC/DC influenced stuff instead.
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