Does anyone feel they can't play with oth
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Topic: Does anyone feel they can't play with oth
Posted By: The Lost Chord
Subject: Does anyone feel they can't play with oth
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 20:59
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whenever I try to jam with people, I feel like they are just awful and cannot keep up with the awesomeness I am trying to achieve.
No ONE I know listens to prog, and they can only handle simple stuff. Does anyone find it easy to just pick up with someone who doesnt really listen to the same stuff as you?
I feel like in order to form a band or play with someone they have to be on the same page, or levbel even.
Prog is absoluteley brilliant and most people cannot handle a keyboard run and cant fit right on drums and bass.
its awful! -------------  "Only the sun knew why"
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Replies:
Posted By: Zoso
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 21:03
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I'm really fortunate to live in a town with a lot of really really
talented musicians my age. I haven't had a bad jam in a long time. A
lot of them listen to prog too, so we can appreciate each other's often
eccentric playing. I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties though. Just look around for other guys to jam with, or be patient. My friend Colin sucked at drumming a year ago, but I made it a point to jam with him as often as possible and push his limits, and now he sounds ten times better than when we started jamming. -------------  |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 21:06
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Sometimes you'll have to make compromises when you play with people who don't listen to prog. Try and throw in bits of it here and there, but I would recommend just play at their level and try and help them improve.
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Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 21:09
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Wow triple post Cygmund.
I don't enjoy just jamming either, before I play with people, I like to get an idea of were the music is supposed to go. -------------  
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 21:10
Yeah, internet connection issues.  -------------
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AtLossForWords wrote:Posted By: dralan
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 21:26
| Ya thats one of the reasons I play classical guitar almost exclusively now. Besides the fact that Im older now and I have a wife and kids, to me its not as fun as it used to be just to get together with buddies and jam on old Sabbath or Zeppelin. I no longer really want to be in a rock band even though music is still my first love. Im not putting myself above anyone, its just my tastes have changed and its a hell of a lot easier just to pick up and classical guitar and go. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 21:31
| Although I really have no problem with jamming with people who have different tastes and/or are below my level, people might have problem with me. I have realised that I am a pretty eccentric player. |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: July 17 2006 at 22:23
I see what you mean. I'm fairly new playing guitar and I wanted to make a very simple yet beautiful song by Explosions in the sky. I only needed at least another guitarist to make the song, but a friend of mine who plays guitar said that the song is too slow and he doesn't like it because there isn't too much happening  . That bummed me out. I guess he'll never play a single ballad just because it's "too slow" or "there isn't much to play in it"...Sad...... ------------- 
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Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 01:27
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YEAH!! Well, hopefuly my friend is a good drummer...hes been wanting to play with me for a long time, and he is kind of lost when it comes to what he really likes...so ill give him a try.
Honestly, I am openly very forceful and viscious when it comes to playing with other people. If i dont like how you play I cant play with you, simple as. I cant simply TEACH someone how awesome prog is and how they SHOULD be playing more like bruford than the drum beat to a britney spears song.
Its annoying, and I really just stop playing sometimes, I cannot stand it. I respect Fripp and Mavers for what I used to think was craziness, they were RIGHT, if someone cant play FUDGE EM ! GO PRACTICE AND LISTEN TO SOME GOOD MUSIC ------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 01:30
When I played we had to comp´romise, they accepted to play some popular prog tracks like Point of Know Return, Crime of the Century and I had to accept playing Follow You Follow Me plus some Asia stuff 
But honestly, neither they or I were capable of making justice to the real icons.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 01:43
I know what it feels like to be in a band with differing tastes. Try an alternative guy, a techno/rap guy, and pop/punk music all in one band! Although the alternative guy and the techno one's tastes have moved on to prog  ------------- 
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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 02:05
I have had luck, and I have two insane friends to share my music tastes and improvisational ambitions! Here's one of our jam: http://www.mikseri.net/music/play.php?id=112855&type=dl - http://www.mikseri.net/music/play.php?id=112855&type=dl  
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 02:11
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Unfortunately things usually go bad when i'm jamming with people. Most of my friends who make music, know other bands' songs, and thus play those constantly. Me, not knowing how to play the melodies or anything, seem out of place playing my marimba.
With this said, there is one guy who meshes with me pretty well, and we've created some cool sounding things. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: penguindf12
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 03:35
| jamming can be difficult, even when you're all very good (perhaps especially if you're all very good). i joined a quote "Swedish-influenced metal band" and it seems to work out okay. we don't jam so much as just write stuff. the one practice we've had so far was great; the drummer gave a 7/4 beat at random, and we just wrote an intro and all. things just went together, even though I don't like metal all that much. granted, we have different tastes - but as musicians, we seem to be on the same page. |
Posted By: Zoso
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 12:38
That sucks man. Jamming's all about making your own stuff up and making it work. ------------- |
Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 12:58
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As a bassist, I've always played by ear and I've been able to pick up and play with just about anyone. I've jammed with several metal bands, punk, blues, and even a prog-type creation recently. It depends on the people, but you really need a place to start. Get a basic idea down first and expand it later. You cant try to create a masterpiece all in one go unless you're really really good.
------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: July 18 2006 at 14:57
I'm sorry but this statement is just hilarious. It just clicked for me what you remind me of sometimes... http://www.realultimatepower.net/ - http://www.realultimatepower.net/  That said, I understand that it's frustrating sometimes when you're jamming with people who are into something very different than you. But maybe you could try being a little patient? There's got to be some common ground somewhere. ------------- Pure Brilliance: 
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Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: July 20 2006 at 03:53
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Write it yourself if you're so good. MIDI sequencing software is readily available for free. Learn to play bass and drums. If you feel it's so easy than just go ahead and do it. You sound like one of those guys that whenever someone plucks a note or hits a drum you start yelling "NO NO NO... NOT THAT WAY!!... THIS WAY! DADA DODO DA DA DEE DUM DA DOO" ------------- 
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Posted By: EssentialFaris
Date Posted: August 10 2006 at 14:26
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You shouldn't worry about different tastes, except for the fact is may break you in the end...I had some friends, one was a folk guitarist/bassist, a prog organist, an amazing multi talented lead guitarist, a decent soft rock guitarist, and a punkish rock drummer, and they were the most rockin' unsigned band i ever saw, some members began to get full of themselves though, and they did alot of selfish things, they disbanded, but you guys should still check what they still have up on their page.
http://www.myspace.com/thepinklist - www.myspace.com/thepinklist
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Posted By: The Lost Chord
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 11:20
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heirophant, i CAN play guitar, flute, piano, drums, bass and pretty much ANYTHING you throw at me....because im FIENDISH for music so its not that hard. BUT SOMETIMES YOU NEED A BAND TO MAKE GOOD MUSIC!!!! I need the rhythm, i need it all going at once, i cant record myself and play over it i just dont feel it, yuou would know if you were quite nearly as fiendish.------------- "Only the sun knew why"
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 11:23
That's the same situation i'm in!
But we usually play some easy sabbath tunes
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Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 21:49
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can we hear some of this awesomeness you are trying to achieve?
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 21:58
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I've experienced that MANY times. Me and a friend of mine started a band when we were 11-12 years old. I was deeply into Genesis and King Crimson at that time and only wanted to play that. The other band memebr didn't understand a thing when I played som 7/8, 9/8 time-signatures for them. So we played some Deep Purple and AC/DC influenced stuff instead. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: Kim Ankara
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 07:55
Heh sometimes I have more trouble trying to get our drummer to not play like Bruford. Sometimes I need a steady rhythm to grasp hold of.  |
Posted By: Leningrad
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 10:49
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I have a bassist friend, and even though he's into prog, he can hardly play his freaking instrument. I swear, the kid can't play 'La Grange' by ZZ Top in 4/4. I'm not sure about the rest of us, though. We can't play Black Sabbath's 'War Pigs' anymore, because even though everyone else had mastered it, our bassist didn't know when to come in.
It's like some people don't even listen to the song they're playing...
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 03:47
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I've been in loads of choirs and orchestras, and hate it when we have to rehearse pieces over and over because of the slow ones - there is nothing worse than note-bashing, as it ruins artistic creativity, IMO.
I read music like most people read books - I can hear it as I read the notes, and usually get it after the second or third time, if it's complex (there's always one or two "gotchas"). I also have perfect pitch, so I almost never sing a wrong note - I simply cannot do it, as it's part of my physical makeup.
I do, however hear others singing wrong notes, and try to make up ways for them to overcome the mistakes: Most people make the same mistakes over and over when they haven't "got" a piece of music - there's always a couple of gotchas that they constantly trip over, and recovery can take a while - if it happens at all.
The most complex piece I've ever performed was in a 20th century avante-garde style; 4 unaccompanied vocalists singing completely unrelated parts into 4 tape loops that fed into effects units. We were given the music at 9am, and had to perform it at 7pm the same day. Nothing like pressure, but we had to keep going over the other 3 parts until the singers could get close to the ideas.
It's the same in bands - if I write a riff or chord progression, I expect everyone to get it after a few iterations, not after a few weeks' jamming.
I now do all the guitars and most of the keyboards on the stuff I write - and it's all laid down in single takes, because it sounds best when it's fresh, even when there are execution issues.
I'm also in a singing group, trying to teach them Barbershop harmony... I must like coaching people, or I wouldn't do it...
 I, too, am an incredibly arrogant sod who finds it difficult to play with others because my expectations, demands and standards are always set unrealistically high - and that includes of my own music, even if it doesn't sound like it! - sample here: http://www.sectionzmusic.com/player.asp?ispath=featured%2FCERTIF1ED+%2D+DISTURBED%2Emp3&rtitle=DISTURBED&rartist=CERTIF1ED - http://www.sectionzmusic.com/player.asp?ispath=featured%2FCERTIF1ED+%2D+DISTURBED%2Emp3&rtitle=DISTURBED&rartist=CERTIF1ED .
Please note that we've possibly spent 5-6 hours total time on this piece, and everything is a single take (with minor editing for consistency, and the odd bit of copy and paste, because of time constraints).
Now you can tell me that it's nothing to be arrogant about...  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 08:58
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Well. My last band/group was with these two professional jazz guys (drums and piano). I really felt like the worst player in that group (guitar/flute). Even though I have no problems learning the notes of new songs in some 5 minutes by heart, and I know my theory. Just not as much experience in playing. Even though all our own jazz songs were composed by me. Anyway, the jamming was always there, it's jazz after all. Sadly we had to break the band.
Then I was a singer in this one band. Now I noticed a complete difference in the way of jamming. THese guys had played for years and I was the new guy. Firstly, they were great players as well and had some splendid songs. But when it came to jamming, I took my guitar and played with them. But I realised they did it well, but completely different as I do. I'm used to playing long solos where I have time to build up the atmosphere and then bring it down for the nxt player, but it was all hectic with them, really short solos and everyone put out their best in it. I didn't really get the feeling into it. Then my friend who is a drummer. We often jam together, but welack a bassist. though we know each other good enough, there's no problem knowing what the other one is thinking of. same goes to jamming with my brother too. He's a bassist, but doesn't live here, so no new Rush group here :P I remember one of my friends. The guy is fast. He used to play symphony X all the time, but he's not very good at playing with others. Anyway, I find jamming with ther guitarists harder than with other instruments. But when I take my flute, then it's easier with a guitar. Unless of course the other guitarist is a great player like my teacher. Then any mistake you make, he can hear it before you and change the chord behind it. He's amazing :) |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 09:20
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I'm in a band where everybody's enthusiastic but enthusiasm is not all that counts. When I'm playing a brilliant keyboard solo I found out more than once that the guitars were once again to loud in the mix Well, it doesn't really matter. I like to play in a band, and there's still a lot of progression, musically, and our equipment gets better as well through the years.
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Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:05
Yeah, this tends to be the problem with me too, in a way. I like to change time signatures and keys during a song, but no one else I've ever played music with does. Then again, I live in a small town and everyone I've ever jammed with hates prog. There just aren't enough people around. Actually, the other members of my previous band made me take out all the nifty little things that made the music unusual... turned it into just plain old rock. It was okay, but I got more and more disappointed as time went on. I only managed to keep one song sounding even a little bit progressive. member_profile.asp?PF=3056&FID=46 - The Lost Chord ... wow do I hear you. member_profile.asp?PF=256&FID=46 - Certif1ed - That sample you put up is amazing. I wish I had that level of quality on my recordings. You don't happen to live in MA, do you? Eh, but my new project is supposed to be metal/prog anyways. If you (or anyone) is interested, http://www.myspace.com/sonolumina - http://www.myspace.com/sonolumina is currently just me recording different things multitrack, also just first takes (but because I don't have time to do more than that). http://www.myspace.com/thejamexperimentband - http://www.myspace.com/thejamexperimentband is my previous band that ended up not being ambitious enough for my taste. I have an amazing singer lined up for Sonolumina, her voice is just superb with incredible range. I wish I had a sample up with her voice in it, but I don't yet. She's definately the easiest person to work with for me, though. She offers suggestions without trying to just make things easier, and I usually take her advice. ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 16:00
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^Thanks - glad you enjoyed it!
Quick tip on your recordings - The voice cuts through well, but the instrumental arrangement gets very muddy, and it's not easy to pick out the position of the instruments.
Check your levels (use a little compression here and there, especially on the distorted guitar), and think about the kind of stereo (or even 3d) soundscape you're creating.
The music sounds great, though - your singer has a beautiful voice that, in my opinon, sounds not unlike Annie Haslam (my favourite kind of tone) - but you need to spend as much time mixing as you do recording the instruments, if not more.
I live in the UK, so a bit far away - but I'd like at some point to revive the old thread in which PA musicians were going to try to exchange stuff over the internet and try to get a bit of collaboration going that way.
If everyone used a common piece of software (e.g. SONY's ACID - the Express version of which is FREE to download), then we could just transfer ACID projects via one of the many free file storage sites - and exchange ideas that way.
Just a thought...
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 05:41
Hmm I jam with my brother and his friend a lot of times but not becasue they like prog (they dislike a lot of it  )But since I can play almost at their level (I am a pretty bad bassist imo) we get into psychedelic jams and/or blues jams or even funk. Every person I've played with I can jam perfectly with them because we are usually on the same skill level. But I don't get to play what I want to play all the time so its a compromise when you jam with your brother or a friend who does not like prog. |
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 16:37
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Certif1ed, thanks for the tips! I love writing, playing and singing
music, but I know very little about mixing. I have done some reading,
especially on noise reduction, but have mostly been flying blind when
it comes to getting things to sound the way I want them to. I did actually experiment with my sofware's compressor, but only on the vocal tracks. I should have taken the hint when it made the vocals sound more clear, but I didn't. Thanks for pointing this out!
Thanks and thanks! Annie Haslam is easily one of my favorite singers. I definately do need to spend more time on these songs. I tend to record, edit, and mix all in one night right now, and spend more time in the recording than mixing - apparently not the best thing to do. It would be good to have a way to exchange music with fellow proggers over the internet. There is a serious shortage of them within 100 miles of me. The software I'm using right now is Cakewalk's Music Creator 3 (it only cost $30, hence why I've been using it). I'll take a look at Sony's ACID express, though. If it's free and good software, i'll download it. member_profile.asp?PF=10690&FID=46 - progismylife - it's good that you have people to jam with for fun. I think the problem with me may just be where I live, and that most people around me tend to like very pop-oriented or hair-band type music. Not my cup of tea. ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 13:37
Hah - I've just noticed that ACID Express doesn't allow you to actually use FX plugins... so that negates any compression 
However, using something like this would allow for the exchange of ideas - I'm knocking up a little something in 11/4 and will stick it onto a shared drive for anyone interested.
It won't be anything polished, due to the lack of effects - but I'll try and do as much as I can in pre to get a reasonable sound, bearing in mind that anything written in ACID Express can easily be polished up in Pro (which is what we normally use). ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: asimplemistake
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 19:51
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On the original topic here, I joined a band right when I was getting into prog back three to four years ago. All of us had something in common (that's also in common with prog): Symphony X. We played as a three person band for a while, doing some 80's metal covers (Judas Priest, Dio, etc) and starting to write some songs. When we added a bassist (when we were getting more and more into prog at that point), it just so happened that our friend who we wanted to play with us liked Muse, so we had that connection. Lastly, we added a keyboardist and he loved everything we loved. Now we're a five piece band, we've never lost a member, and we all love prog (except the bassist who does like some, but we've been playing this stuff so long he doesn't want to stop). We're now a "prog band", cause we don't do much that isn't in some way related to the genre(s). I guess I was a lucky one to have so many prog loving musicians around me, even if when we made the band we barely knew anything about it. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 21:20
| Getting someone that's into "normal" rock to play prog doesn't seem like it would be that much of a stretch. If you think about it, prog's not that much different, it's not like you're asking them to play a completely different style from what they're comfortable with. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: April 29 2007 at 03:40
I think that you are wrong. Prog is way different from "normal" rock. Prog can have 20 minute long songs, not many normal rock bands have this. Prog (as my brother associates it with) has jazz influences, your average rock band has blues influences. Also the bassist in prog is usually more forward and in front, showing you his bass skill, but in rock the bassist isn't really in the spotlight as much or if ever. So it is a big stretch to get someone to play something that is almost opposite in style. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: April 29 2007 at 10:05
| I think that prog essentially requires the same techniques as normal rock, just a totally different mindset, and possibly more skill. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 29 2007 at 12:46
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What's "normal" rock? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: April 29 2007 at 12:48
If people with different mindsets try to play together they would clash almost right away and one of them would have to compromise |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: April 29 2007 at 12:49
Well I can tell you what it's not: abnormal rock  Actually I have no idea what member_profile.asp?PF=10385&FID=46 - Sasquamo meant |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: April 29 2007 at 19:36
| Normal rock? I would think most people on this site would think of rock that's not prog, such as Led Zeppelin, The Who, The Beatles, etc. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 30 2007 at 03:30
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In that case, I'd just like to point out that the techniques as well as the mindsets are completely different in Prog Rock: For example, the bands you mention all used standard song structure and short, repetitive phrases in non modulating, steady-beat songs utilising catchy melodies, with lyrics about boy-girl relationships or modern life as the basis of their careers - with few exceptions.
Prog Rock does not - the techniques used are the opposite of those I listed.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: April 30 2007 at 16:22
| But they are still both rock. A drum beat that works in stereotypical rock will most likely work in prog too. It's not as if a rock drummer is jamming with a jazz band, where the way everything is played is entirely differently. |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: April 30 2007 at 21:12
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I was lucky enough to find a drummer who is really into prog and a keyboardist who is a big Yes fan who I can almost definately convert to a full-fledged prog fan.
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Posted By: Morbix
Date Posted: April 30 2007 at 21:40
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Honestly, one of the places this sucks the most is where I'm currently stuck. The Ninth CIrcle of Hell, a.k.a high school. You really don't want to know the massive amount of people who are little sheep to the ever-churning-out-crap modern music industry. Fall Out Boy, Nickelback, "gangsta" rap artists, essentially everyone who makes massive amounts of money from doing nothing original. Even the kids in band, which there is actually a great band at my school, lots of talent, they still insist on drowning their ears in bad music like Incubus, Underoath and Slipknot. The only people I know who consistently listen to prog are myself, one friend of mine who I've been bringing over to The Prog Side (away from what he used to listen to, Staind), and two guys who used to live here but moved to a different place in the state (one being Schwang Schwinga, if you've seen him around the forums). Honestly I can say I blame the fact that so many people at my school have not grown up to the extent I have. Not to toot my own horn, but some of these football players cannot manage a single coherent thought. Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn, you know? So now that my ranting is done, I'd just say that I feel for you man. The only half-decent drummer at my school listens to nothing but old punk. Sympathy, Morbix ------------- Take everything in moderation, including moderation. 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 06:46
That's a very broad generalisation - and in fact, I would posit that the opposite generalisation is true - Prog Rock is notable for NOT utilising basic rock beats, and, in the best prog, the drummer has to interact more closely with the musicians as a jazz drummer would. Phil Collins, Barriemore Barlowe, Robert Wyatt, Pierre Moerlen and Pip Pyle spring to mind.
Prog Rock is reasonably close to jazz in principle, hence the fusion/prog crossovers.
Since Prog Rock rarely usese 4/4, it is highly unlikely that a drum beat that works in "normal" rock will work in Prog - I thought that much was obvious to any Prog fan. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 12:36
That's what I was feebly trying to say earlier but did not have enough knowledge (or correct terms) to express this. Thanks for explaining the differences properly, Certif1ed!  |
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 13:33
Sasquamo, it may not seem like it, but the problem is often someone who likes mainstream music doesn't like what they hear when they hear prog... so asking them to play something that's progressive or even just prog-related can be like pulling teeth. They try to change it to make it sound "better" in their opinion, which means making it sound like mainstream rock. So the band either loses one member or the other, or at least one member is unhappy with the music. Morbix - I know what you mean... but I wouldn't exactly call Incubus, Underoath and Slipknot bad music... there's certainly a lot of music out there that's less complex and interesting. For example... the dreaded boy-bands. :) Actually, avoiding ordinary, boring drummers is part of the reason why I don't listen to a lot of non-progressive rock. I can't stand it when a drummer is just slamming on his snare drum every beat, or every other beat... or... even worse... every 1/2 or 1/4 beat. Aaargh! The sound cuts right through me. I enjoy complex drumbeats that accentuate the song rather than just keep time. This is why I actually loved the drummer from my band that I was talking about earlier. He almost never played a straight rock beat - he took his cues from the music. But if the time signature wasn't 4/4 he had trouble, and he didn't like time signature changes, tempo changes, or long songs. The reason that didn't work therefore was because he didn't like what I was doing, not because I thought what he was doing was bad (I actually thought he grew to be quite an excellent drummer... as long as he was in 4/4). ;) ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 17:33
Prog uses 4/4 a great deal, and while prog drummers might listen and interact "like" jazz, playing rock is still a lot different than playing jazz. |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 17:59
Drumming has actually become a highly specialized thing. Many are only good at one style. You have fusion drummers, prog drummers, pop drummers, punk drummers, metal drummers, etc., and they often don't cross styles very well. ------------- |
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 16:16
While a lot of prog does indeed use 4/4, much of it does not stick with that time signature during the whole song. I realize this is a generalization, but in order to play progressive rock, a drummer needs to be able to do time signatures other than 4/4 and 3/4, which are the only beats used in the vast majority of pop and rock music. Yes, playing rock is different from playing jazz... and playing progressive rock is different from both those things. It may combine elements of both, but it is its own entitiy. Also, a lot of people who listen to prog are listening partially for the musicians' skill or virtuosity. If a drummer is just playing a basic rock beat throughout entire songs, a lot of prog-fans may write off either the drummer or the band as unskilled. Then again, fans of mainstream rock might worship that drummer as long as the beat is perfectly timed. Again, yes I realize this is a generalization. It depends a lot on what someone is looking for in a song. |
Posted By: Morbix
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 20:28
Those words sting my nose and throat like ammonia. But the point is that yeah, I went a little overboard. It's not so much the music (hell, Jordy Jordison is a psycho drummer), but the people that listen to it. It just seems like if you can't express any emotion but anger, it just feels like they're a little locked up and alienate themselves except for other miserable people. Gets to you after a while.  ------------- Take everything in moderation, including moderation.
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Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 08 2007 at 14:39
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Morbix - The sad thing is, this doesn't change too much when you're out of high school either... although at least you have a little more freedom to move around and find people that you enjoy playing music with. I say a little more because most people, including me, are held in one place by their job. The internet seems to be the best way around this... short of, you know, not having a job. ;) Although if music IS your job that should work pretty well! ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 08 2007 at 14:56
Genesis and Jethro Tull regularly used non 4/4 signatures - and that's just two off the top of my head.
The point is, that 4/4 is used much less in Prog than standard rock - and this is just one simple reason (of many) that you cannot just tart up regular rock and call it Prog. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: May 08 2007 at 15:17
Any 8/8 (C) or 6/8 drum beat that works in normal rock would most likely work in any comparable Prog section. Chances are the drummer would dress it up a bit for good effect-- ghosting on the snare, creating a more intricate ride/hihat pattern, etc.-- but the underlying beat would be the same. Collins, Moerlen and Barlowe each did quite a bit of this; while their more over-the-top stuff is certainly more memorable (and, arguably, complex), it's important to recognize that they weren't just going off in odd meters all the time. Just remember-- for every "Apocalypse in 9/8" there's an "Afterglow"! |
Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: May 08 2007 at 15:26
That's pretty sad, but true in a way. While it seems that any drummer worth their salt is familiar (on one level or another) with drumming styles/techniques outside their "preferred" genre, very few drummers will actually play something other than what they're into-- unless it pays, of course! On a somewhat related note, I can't help but notice that two genres which were originally notable for their flexibility and assimilation of disparate stylistic and musical characteristics-- Prog and Fusion-- have crystallized into their own little spheres, each with its fairly rigid conventions and expectations... |
Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: June 19 2007 at 22:00
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I 've always been able to jam proficiently with anyone. I do have a diverse musical background though and I do have proficient skill in my instrument (guitar). Usually, the people I play with cannot keep up with me. I reach for lofty, technically perfect heights. I can play whith anyone, anywhere, anytime! ------------- for those about to prog, we salute you. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 20 2007 at 12:50
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Lost Chord, it sounds to me like you don't want to play with a band, you want a band to play for you. That's fine, but you have to make sure the other players all know it, and most of the time you'll have to pay them. You can't just dictate to other musicians how to play if you're not clearly the leader of the group. Also keep in mind that some of the best bands in history came from very different musical backgrounds and it was because of that that they were able to create something unique and wonderful. ------------- 
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Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 14:03
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^ It's never much fun when one member of a band doesn't give other members artistic freedom, or tries to tell another band member how to play his/her instrument. On the other hand, it's just as frustrating when one band member writes a song, and the other band members, rather than write their own parts for the song, decide the song needs to be changed to fit their needs. It works both ways. With the band I was in, I was the only one who actually wrote songs before hand, so this was always happening to me. It bothered me a lot when the other band members took out anything that wasn't in 4/4, and changed a lot of the basic structure. It went way beyond their artistic freedom, into stamping out my freedom to write a song that I liked (well, I could still write them, but if I wanted the structure to be the same I'd have to do it by myself). I think this is why our jam sessions turned out better... because my feelings didn't get hurt because I hadn't done any work beforehand. We'd just play some chords or something in 4/4 for a few minutes, and it sometimes turned out pretty or psychedelic-sounding in some cases. Apparently I needed to rant. :) Anyway, I think what I was trying to get at with all that, is all the band members need to give each other the freedom to experiment, play, and have fun. I wouldn't be surprised if it works better when all the band members compose their own songs, so it's more balanced and varied. Freedom and staying relatively relaxed are important. :) ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: assh
Date Posted: June 27 2007 at 23:49
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i completely agree with u SA, nice word! ------------- international bitch master, thats the all thing i known about IBM. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 01 2007 at 17:41
You're absolutely right. When you write a song, you have the right to protect it from being changed in ways you don't like, but when you're just jamming, let everyone do their own thing. -------------
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Posted By: fungusucantkill
Date Posted: July 01 2007 at 17:52
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I usually jam with a drummer that ive been friends with for a while and a horn/syth player that knows whats going on and really charismatic guitar player. its easy for us to make music....but if go outside that realm....i pretty much have to play what THEY want to play.
The next thing harder than finding people to play with...is a place to play gigs....other than the screamo venue or rap venue...or the dreaded backyard venue....eww -------------  
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