Is Steve Hackett's guitar work... Weird? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Chus

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:51

So you're good to go

put your fingers on the hot iron and you won't notice a thing

Jesus Gabriel

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:48

Don't tell me about the fingers, I already notoiced it, now are red and with little skin, the next step is what we call in spanish CALLO (hard shell I believe).

Iván

Chus

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:46

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Electro Acustic.

The electric mics can be added with a plug that doesn't affect theintegrity of the wood, the mic is very small but very powerfull.

I know it's not the best way to learn it, but according to the ,manuals it works......now it's only a matter of talent or lack of it.

Iván

Those are tough to play, the strings are tense as hell and your fingers start to set fire after 15 minutes

Your fingers at first are meant to hurt, so a "hard shell" develops at the tips. Then, it will be quite easy to do it. Remember, baby steps

Jesus Gabriel

Chus

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:43

erik neuteboom wrote:

I play Spanish/classical guitar and I have even had some flamenco guitar lessons, that's my second best favorite music, once I hope to found a Dutch Prog Andaluz band featuring guest musician Arjen Lucassen on slide guitar !

So you're like Maurice Leenaars

Jesus Gabriel

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:41

Electro Acustic.

The electric mics (Very flat, chips almnost like paper added in the fingerboard and inside the guitar) can be added without a plug that affect the integrity of the wood, the mics are very small but very powerfull.

I know it's not the best way to learn it, but according to the ,manuals it works......now it's only a matter of talent or lack of it.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 21 2007 at 15:44

erik neuteboom View Drop Down

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:39

Edited by erik neuteboom - April 21 2007 at 15:40

Chus

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:36

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

erik neuteboom wrote:

Ivan, I play guitar and last year I have worked on the solo in Firth Of Fifth and the acoustic pieces Horizons and Blood On The Rooftops. I can tell you that I was stunned by the very tasteful way Hackett succeeds to blend different styles and techniques, he has a blues heart, he was also impressed by Robert Fripp ("he named it musical karate"), he was classically trained but also interested in using sensational effect pedals, all these elements can be traced in his varied and dynamic guitar style.

After many years I bought a good and expensive guitar (Well a guy owed me money and had nothing, so he offered me one from his store -instead of loosing everything, well, I accepted-), and after almost 20 years, I'm working trying to learn the tapping technique.

It's much more harder than working with flashes, sometimes I give up after 2 or 3 hours with finger pain because it's exhausting.

Iván

Electric guitar?

Jesus Gabriel

erik neuteboom View Drop Down

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:31

Well, once I hope to learn to play piano

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:29

It's much more harder than working with flashes, sometimes I give up after 2 or 3 hours with finger pain because it's exhausting.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 21 2007 at 15:32

erik neuteboom View Drop Down

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:23

Ivan, I play guitar and last year I have worked on the solo in Firth Of Fifth and the acoustic pieces Horizons and Blood On The Rooftops. I can tell you that I was stunned by the very tasteful way Hackett succeeds to blend different styles and techniques, he has a blues heart, he was also impressed by Robert Fripp ("he named it musical karate"), he was classically trained but also interested in using sensational effect pedals, all these elements can be traced in his varied and dynamic guitar style.

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:04

erik neuteboom wrote:

Ivan, don't let you provoke by Progger, his only intention is to provoke, he is one of the increasing amount of persons who has discovered Prog Archives as a perfect place to surpress their negative feelings by nailing others so they can feel superior, very poor and I am concerned that they often succeed to get reactions, I have decided to stop reacting on him, he is not worth to join a serious discussion.

I agree Erik, but my problem is that this kind of abusive behaviour is making us loose valuable people.

Collaborators are being harrassed for adding bands, I may disagree with the additions and I express my arguments, but some lurkers go further and insult them until they leave.

This kind of people who does nothing for PA harrasess, insults or calls members WHO WORK HERE FOR PURE LOVE LIARS, but when it comes the time to work, they vanish as thin air.

I honestly can't care for this guy less, you are absolutely accurate, but I received comments of members and Collaborators by PM showing some discomfort with this kind of situations.

Any member must be able to give an opinion without being called liar, some new members may be afraid of being insulted without any support.

You or me won't care, we'll probably reply in a harsh way (You know we will

), but a newbie will maybe leave, and that's unfair.

But you're right Erik better ignore him now..

We ain't gonna take you
Never did and never will
We're not gonna take you
We forsake you
Gonna rape you
Let's forget you better still.

The Who - We're not Gonna Take it.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 21 2007 at 15:19

dralan

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 14:53

I really dont care who says they "invented" tapping. Just the fact that Van Halen was the one who exposed it to the world on a large scale makes him a pioneer in that regard, but if you want to give Hackett a gold star for inventing it , then whatever. Anyway Hackett was and remains one of my all-time favorite guitarists. I see nothing horrible or sloppy in his playing at all. He goes for feeling and musicality first and foremost and his electric style is so unique and distinct that whatever warts and flaws there may be I dont really notice. On acoustic and classical he sounds smooth as silk to me. I dont understand the complaints myself.

Edited by dralan - April 21 2007 at 14:57

bhikkhu

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 14:50

Progger wrote:

I have seen Hackett often enough to know he is a very good guitarist but nothing exceptional!

Are you talking about clips on YouTube? How can you have seen him live "many times" and not see what we are talking about?

a.k.a. H.T.

http://riekels.wordpress.com

erik neuteboom View Drop Down

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 14:50

Ivan, don't let you provoke by Progger, his only intention is to provoke, he is one of the increasing amount of persons who has discovered Prog Archives as a perfect place to surpress their negative feelings by nailing others so they can feel superior, very poor and I am concerned that they often succeed to get reactions, I have decided to stop reacting on him, he is not worth to join a serious discussion.

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 14:37

Progger wrote:

Ivan,

It sounds like I hit a sore nerve with you and that's what the truth often does. I stand by what I wrote and am entitled to my theories and oppinions. This board isn't run by Stalinist Russia.

But support what you say, give quotes, facts, opibnions, not just speak nonsenses without any suppot and don't lie.

We are giving you HISTORIC FACTS, you deny them and don't say why, you don't even base your opinions in Genesis shiows, but in the face of a tribute guitar player.

YOU CALL PEOPLE LIAR AND YOU DON'T SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS. YOU JUST ACCUSE AND THAT'S ALL THAT WAS A STALINIST TACTIC, YOU ACCUSED SOMEBODY OF BEING ANTI-REVOLUTIONARY AND SENT THEM TO JAIL WITHOUT ANY PROVE.

You have the right to give your opinion, but you don't have the right to say people lie or are giving flawed arguments WHEN THEY GIVE YOU FACTS AND YOU GIVE........NOTHING, that's ABUSE.

You ignore any data provided and you insist calling people liars or flawed without giving a single fact.

On other posts you have called Collaborators, Adms and members CORRUPT GENESIS MANIPULATORS and repeatedly, but when people ask you facts, you escape and come back again after a while with the same abuse.

I gave you at least 6 or 8 quotes GIVE ARGUMENTS TO PROVE ALL ARE WRONG.

..........GIVE ANY FACT......AT LEAST ONE..

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 21 2007 at 14:45

Progger

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 13:50

Ivan,

It sounds like I hit a sore nerve with you and that's what the truth often does. I stand by what I wrote and am entitled to my theories and oppinions. This board isn't run by Stalinist Russia.

TheLamb

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 13:20

Well I don't know how much clearer I can make this... My problem with Hackett is not sound... its that imprecision in his playing that is always apparent to me... But it maybe just me being petty... because humans are not machines, no one plays 100% tight on the click, only machines do... and if people did, it probably wouldn't sound good...

While writing this post I suddenly understood something very important... Hackett would not be the same without these imperfections, and If he didn't have them I would like him less... It's just... a part of the magic... of course he COULD play the same inventive music but play it more accurately... but It wouldn't be Hackett... its just, you can't have one without the other... His inventiveness ang genius is inseparable from his bad qualities... I still think The Knife solo from Genesis Live is not a very good one... Neither are any of his solos on "Genesis Live"... but thats just my opinion... I can't stand the smallest inaccuracy in rhythm, or any sort of inaccuracy... and there are way too many big inaccuracies..... It's just annoying, although I do realize that they are a part of him, and 'I wouldn't have him any other way'... but I can't say I love that side of him...

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:55

Progger wrote:

I totally agree that Hackett's distorted guitar sound is annoying. He seems to lose control of his instrument when let loose. I think it's understandable that the other members kept him on a short leash and kept his soloing to a minimum. When given the freedom his guitar tone can destroy an album ie, the GTR album.

First people were claiming he invented the tapping technique but it was proved it has been around since the 50's. Now people are claiming he was the first rock guitarist to use it

Poppy cock...I suggest you go listen to some Cream albums for starters.

I have seen Hackett often enough to know he is a very good guitarist but nothing exceptional!

How can you speak so much nonsensese in so little space?

One week ago you ran out of the thread (After saying Clapton was the inventor of tapping,m that hackett did nothing, etc) whem I wrote this three posts with specific quotes::

ONE

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Progger wrote:

It amazes me that when people say something often enough that isn't true, gullible people will believe it

Please quote me one credible source that says Hackett was THE FIRST ROCK MUSICIAN to use both hands tapping technique? Chet Atkins and the like were teaching on instructional vynil in the 50's. Clapton was doing with Cream in the 60's.

Hackett is a good guitarist but nothing spectacular. I have never heard or read anything by anyone that says he was an influence to them, similarly, you will never see him in a top 50 best guitarist poll, whether by his contempories or general music fans. IMO, his Genesis work is not that impressive and the music was mostly keyboard driven. Lots of acoustic and twelve string parts were actually played by Rutherford. Enen on the SEBTP tour, it was Rutherford who accompanied Collins singing 'More Fool Me' on acoustic guitar. Why was this if Hackett was supposedly such a great player?????????

Progger, we know you hate Genesis (Despite you say the contrary), you have written numerous times about this,, saying Hackett was unable to play in a band like Yes, and that he's only an average good guitar, but this time you're talking nonsense

As you will seee later it's impossible FOR ANYBODY to use the two handed tapping technique in the 50's because it's invention is credited to Chappman in AUGUST 1969.

HacketSteve Hackett of the English prog band Genesis used the two-hand tapping technique on "The Return of the Giant Hogweed" from the album Nursery Cryme, released in 1971. Additionally, the solo about eight minutes into "Supper's Ready" from the 1972 Foxtrot album features this technique in a semi-quaver (16th note) passage.

(...) Hackett also employs the two handed technique on "Dancing With the Moonlit Knight" from Genesis' 1973 album "Selling England by the Pound became one of the first guitarists to use the tapping technique normally credited to Eddie Van Halen, and sweep-picking popularised in the 1980s by Yngwie Malmsteen.^[5] These techniques were used in the album's opener, "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight".

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Hackett

Check also

Steve Hackett solidified his reputation as a guitar player of outstanding merit during his tenure with progressive rock outfit Genesis in the 1970s. He took this renown with him during a solo career characterized by its broad scope, inventing the two handed tapping technique

Source CD UNIVERSE

In August of 1969, Los Angeles jazz guitarist Emmett Chapman discovered a new way of tapping with both hands held perpendicular to the neck from opposite sides, thus enabling equal counterpoint capabilities for each hand for the first time. Chapman redesigned his 9-string long-scale electric guitar, calling it the Electric Stick. in 1974 he founded Stick Enterprises, Inc. and began building instruments for other musicians. With over 5000 instruments produced as of 2006, The Chapman Stick is the most popular extant dedicated tapping instrument.

Randy Resnick of the Pure Food and Drug Act (band) featuring Don "Sugarcane" Harris used both one and two handed tapping (hammering) extensively in his performances and recordings between 1969 and 1974. This was mentioned in an article in Guitar Player Magazine written by Lee Ritenour in 1970. He also recorded the tapping style in 1974 on the John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers album "Latest Edition". He was attempting to duplicate the legato of John Coltrane's "sheets of sound".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapping

Tapping Technique WAS INVENTED IN 1969 BY EMMETT CHAPMAN A JAZZ GUITAR PLAYER
Used only before Hacett by RANDY RESNICK in BLUES
Only describedy Lee Ritteneour in 1970 ANOTHER JAZZ PLAYER.

BTW: Chet Atkins is not credited but even in the utopic case he used it, he was a COUNTRY MUSICIAN NOT A ROCK PLAYER.

Another name I have seen credited in a few places is John Mayall, but he was a BLUES MUSICIAN.but not before 1974 and The Return of the Giant Hogweed was released in 1971.

The first Rock musician credited as the pioneeer of tapping technique in Rock is STEVE HACKETT during Nursery Cryme.

Better get informed before correcting me pal, it's better for you.

Iván

TWO:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Progger wrote:

CD universe isn't a reliable source and was probably written by an ill informed Genesis fan!

Yes Progger, that's always you argument, according to you Genesis is up in the PA charts because the corrupt Genesis fans manipulate the information , now according to you again the ill Genesis fans arre everywhere changing the history in every possible page, SORRY BUT THIS IS LESS THAN RIDICULOUS..

You ctriticize CD Universe, I gave you two more quotes WHICH YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T MENTION, you can google and you will find much more infOrmation saying exatcly the same

Progger GIVE ANY SOURCE, not ONLY YOUR OBVIOUSLY PARTIAL OPINIONS.

I always inform myself before giving an opinion, SO PLEASE BEFORE SAYING I LIE, PROVE IT.

Read also:

Music Street Journal: Eddie Van Halen said that he learned the tapping technique from you. Is that true or progressive urban legend?

Steve Hackett: That would be true. I learned the tapping technique in 1971. Two albums feature tapping. Nursery Cryme and the opening solo of "Dancing With the Moonlit Night" from Selling England by the Pound has that tapping. So there you are, and Eddie's obviously a fine guitarist. Ironically, I was trying to imitate Bach, and imitate lines that the keyboard player would do. Really, it's jazz-Bach.

http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/hackettinterview.htm

Read it from the mouth of the musician.

Iván

THREE:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

You want more Progger?:

Credit for the first application of this classical technique to the popular music of the modern Western world may be given to Steve Hackett of Genesis, who used the technique in the early 1970s with the song "Return Of The Giant Hogweed" from the second band album. It Also He played tapping both live and in recordings http://en.allexperts.com/e/t/ta/tapping.htm

Or also in:

Steve Hackett is surely one of modern music's greatest innovators. One-time member of the 'classic' Genesis line-up; the inventor of the 'tapping' right-hand guitar technique

http://www.stevehackett.com/press/SoundOnSound/soundonsound.html [/quote]

And again in

After Anthony Phillips (original guitarist) left Genesis, Steve Hackett was the person to fill his shoes, which he had done like nobody else could. He was also the first guitarist to do the finger tapping technique (sorry Eddie Van Halen - you took it from Mr. Hackett).

http://www.daniellars.com/coolinks.html

So be careful with what you write and with who you accuse, I would had not searched for all thisn info if it wasn't because it's not the first time you accuse me of lying (Plus accusing Collaborators and reviewers of being corrupt manipulators of the charts) and then you run out when I give you irrefutable proves,

Iván

People repeatedly has proved you that

HACKETT WAS THE PIONEER OF THE TAPPING TECHNIQUE IN ROCK.
TWO HAND Tapping technique for guitar is credited to Emmett Chappman in august 1969, Certified, who probably has forgoitten this morning more music than you will ever know has supported this with quotes in a thread.
Genesis is THE team band, they managed to blend guoitar with keyboards to make a unique sound, not necesarilly the best one (Even I think it's fabulous),.
You have posyted hundreed of tikes that Genesis did very little soloing...THIS MEANS TEAM WORK.

Your own contadictions are amazing inside this post, tyou say: "Genesis where NOT a team band. In fact they were the most keyboard driven band outside of ELP. 90% of Genesis's music was keybords, drums and Rutherford's bass, acoustic and twelve string."

For God's sake you say they are not a team band and you in THW SAMW SWBNTENCE SAY that they are only bass, acoustic guitar, drums and 12 strng guitar!!!!!

And you base your "informed" critics in your appreciation of the face of a tribute guitar player?????????

Really I'm tired of your trolling, you speak nonsenses and when somebody replies you you escape from the threadand search for a new thread to start your insane attacke.

Progger...GET A LIFE...........OR AT LEAST LET US LIVE!!!!!

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 21 2007 at 13:08

erik neuteboom View Drop Down

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:51

Genesis the most keyboard driven band outside ELP? What a strange conclusion, did you miss the 12-string guitars, Hackett his varied guitar work (inventive use of volume-pedal, hammering down, glissando). His interplay with Banks on Wind And Wuthering is awesome and it's a pity that the record company released Seconds Out where Hackett his contribution is almost deleted , you should listen to 1977 BBC W&W concert (on 2-CD bootleg), what an impressive contribution Hackett delivers And I went to 5 The Musical Box concerts (Foxtrot, The Lamb and Selling tour), I was not bored, in contrary, I was stunned by Hackett his great guitar skills and I was pleased to notice what a great sounding BAND 70-77 Genesis was And I have seen all Hackett solo concerts in Holland between 1979 and now, never a dull moment, from the use of the Spanish guitar to the Roland guitar synthesizer, a big hand for Steve Hackett on guitar (not on vocals ) !

Edited by erik neuteboom - April 21 2007 at 12:55

Progger

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:32

I totally agree that Hackett's distorted guitar sound is annoying. He seems to lose control of his instrument when let loose. I think it's understandable that the other members kept him on a short leash and kept his soloing to a minimum. When given his freedom, his guitar tone & soloing can destroy an album ie, the GTR album.

Ivan's point are also totally flawed. Genesis where NOT a team band. In fact they were the most keyboard driven band outside of ELP. 90% of Genesis's music was keybords, drums and Rutherford's bass, acoustic and twelve string. Go to a Musical Box concert and the Hackett clone looks bored to tears. It's well documented that Hackett's ideas and guitar parts were mostly rejected by the other members. His time keeping was also suspect as evident on many early Genesis boots. I believe that was the reason he was lowered in the mix on 'Seconds Out', though that is only my belief!

First people were claiming he invented the tapping technique but it was proved it has been around since the 50's. Now people are claiming he was the first rock guitarist to use it

Poppy cock...I suggest you go listen to some Cream albums for starters.

I have seen Hackett often enough to know he is a very good guitarist but nothing exceptional!

Edited by Progger - April 21 2007 at 12:53