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Topic ClosedIs there still groundbreaking prog these days?

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Moatilliatta View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 01:25
Originally posted by KansasRushDream KansasRushDream wrote:

To a small extent, yes, but in the big picture, no. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I think that the only room for true innovation left today is in genre fusing. Progressive Smooth Metal Swing Techno anyone?
 
Minus the techno and you have Diablo Swing Orchestra! (a band I failed to mention before).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 02:09
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

One word - KIDA
This album is more innovative than all the prog put together since 1983
Do you mean Kid A by Radiohead? If so, I have to vehemently disagree. If not, what are you talking about?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 02:10
Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

One word - KIDA
This album is more innovative than all the prog put together since 1983
Do you mean Kid A by Radiohead? If so, I have to vehemently disagree. If not, what are you talking about?
why? like it or not, its still ground breaking.



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 02:15
just heard the remarkable Russian band Aviva.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 02:15
It borrows from Boards of Canada and Aphex Twin and electronica in general. It's original, but not original enough to come even close to outweighing everything done since 1983.
Do you really know what has been recorded in the past 10 years alone?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 02:22
Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

It borrows from Boards of Canada and Aphex Twin and electronica in general. It's original, but not original enough to come even close to outweighing everything done since 1983.
Do you really know what has been recorded in the past 10 years alone?
In terms of prog?, there has been nothing that has dropped my jaw in terms of innovation and uniqueness, sure KC is good and Mike Oldfield has released some strong albums, but nothing to change the direction of rock in such a dramatic way, most prog b4 that  and OK Computer  album was pretty much imitating Genesis and Yes. Listen to Spocks Beard and Flower Kings etc they are just rehashing old ideas whats progressive about them? they are Symphonic Rock but not progressive



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 02:37
Yes, Spock's Beard and TFK are awful. I was talking about new groups that are actually original. Most does not equal all, even if that statement were true (and I'm pretty sure it isn't since there were a lot of releases besides retro-symph ones).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 04:25
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

It borrows from Boards of Canada and Aphex Twin and electronica in general. It's original, but not original enough to come even close to outweighing everything done since 1983.
Do you really know what has been recorded in the past 10 years alone?
In terms of prog?, there has been nothing that has dropped my jaw in terms of innovation and uniqueness, sure KC is good and Mike Oldfield has released some strong albums, but nothing to change the direction of rock in such a dramatic way, most prog b4 that  and OK Computer  album was pretty much imitating Genesis and Yes. Listen to Spocks Beard and Flower Kings etc they are just rehashing old ideas whats progressive about them? they are Symphonic Rock but not progressive


Thankfully, there has been more to prog between 83 and Kid A, not just KC, Mike Oldfield and Spocks Beard  - not that there's anything wrong with these acts LOL.

As for Radiohead, dozens of other artists have challenged the definition of prog and changed the way its perceived and understood nowadays, most of them tributary in the least to past bands. Such artists include Univers Zero, Watchtower, Talk Talk, Isildurs Bane, Mr. Bungle, Devil Doll, Ulver, John Zorn, Opeth (early years), Arcturus, Estradasphere, GY!BE, Sigur Ros... to name but a few.

I'll have to agree though that breakthrough is achieved at the moment by combining as many genres as possible. Bands such as Ephel Duath, Unexpect or The Mars Volta have truly defied even the wildest predictions. However, one has to ask, how much more before there will be a saturation of the whole Post-RIO-Goth-Avant-Thrash-Techno-Power-Fusion phenomena? Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:00
Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

Yes, Spock's Beard and TFK are awful. I was talking about new groups that are actually original. Most does not equal all, even if that statement were true (and I'm pretty sure it isn't since there were a lot of releases besides retro-symph ones).
 
The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard may not be the most original of bands, though I really believe each of them have developed their own set of nuances that set them apart, but the certain thing is that they are not awful.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 13:33
Originally posted by enteredwinter enteredwinter wrote:


Radiohead - created innovative music (nothing before OK Computer and Kid A really sounded like those albums), and influenced an entire generation of musicians, as shown in the similarities between many modern bands and Radiohead



Listen to Bjork, Apex Twin and the Pixies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 18:05
Originally posted by Asphalt Asphalt wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

It borrows from Boards of Canada and Aphex Twin and electronica in general. It's original, but not original enough to come even close to outweighing everything done since 1983.
Do you really know what has been recorded in the past 10 years alone?
In terms of prog?, there has been nothing that has dropped my jaw in terms of innovation and uniqueness, sure KC is good and Mike Oldfield has released some strong albums, but nothing to change the direction of rock in such a dramatic way, most prog b4 that  and OK Computer  album was pretty much imitating Genesis and Yes. Listen to Spocks Beard and Flower Kings etc they are just rehashing old ideas whats progressive about them? they are Symphonic Rock but not progressive


Thankfully, there has been more to prog between 83 and Kid A, not just KC, Mike Oldfield and Spocks Beard  - not that there's anything wrong with these acts LOL.

As for Radiohead, dozens of other artists have challenged the definition of prog and changed the way its perceived and understood nowadays, most of them tributary in the least to past bands. Such artists include Univers Zero, Watchtower, Talk Talk, Isildurs Bane, Mr. Bungle, Devil Doll, Ulver, John Zorn, Opeth (early years), Arcturus, Estradasphere, GY!BE, Sigur Ros... to name but a few.

I'll have to agree though that breakthrough is achieved at the moment by combining as many genres as possible. Bands such as Ephel Duath, Unexpect or The Mars Volta have truly defied even the wildest predictions. However, one has to ask, how much more before there will be a saturation of the whole Post-RIO-Goth-Avant-Thrash-Techno-Power-Fusion phenomena? Confused
 
UV were formed in the 70s. Mars Volta, GYBE, and Sigur Ros are post Radiohead, as for prog metal its outside my sphere.



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 18:08
I thought Takk... was rather groundbreaking; a more accessible culmination of absolutely brilliant songs in Sigur Ros's eclectic style.

Joanna Newsom's Ys is full of shifting, enchanted folk (I want to say prog but it's so atypical, it defines categorization).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 22:57

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

UV were formed in the 70s. Mars Volta, GYBE, and Sigur Ros are post Radiohead, as for prog metal its outside my sphere.

GYBE and Sigur Ros started at the same time as OK Computer. Not to mention that your reasoning is flawed because even if there were no creative bands that started from 1983 until 1997, GYBE sounds nothing like Radiohead, so even mentioning them in connection with Radiohead's timeframe is just silly. Even so, the original point was that Kid A is more innovative any everything from 1983 on combined, and GYBE, Taal, 65daysofstatic, Hella, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Mr Bungle, etc. are definately post-1983 and unquestionably very original. I am not saying that Kid A and OK Computer aren't original because even if they were influenced by Aphex Twin, Boards of Canada, Bjork, and The Pixies, everyone is influenced by something; but to say they are the only original group since 1983 only shows incredible ignorance about modern prog.

Originally posted by Moatilliatta Moatilliatta wrote:

The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard may not be the most original of bands, though I really believe each of them have developed their own set of nuances that set them apart, but the certain thing is that they are not awful.
I politely disagree.



Edited by Ghandi 2 - April 21 2007 at 22:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 02:44
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

One word - KIDA
This album is more innovative than all the prog put together since 1983


There have been bands and albums that have pioneered ENTIRE GENRES since 1983, do you really expect anyone to be taking you seriously when you say a radiohead album is more innovative than that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 06:46
Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

UV were formed in the 70s. Mars Volta, GYBE, and Sigur Ros are post Radiohead, as for prog metal its outside my sphere.

GYBE and Sigur Ros started at the same time as OK Computer. Not to mention that your reasoning is flawed because even if there were no creative bands that started from 1983 until 1997, GYBE sounds nothing like Radiohead, so even mentioning them in connection with Radiohead's timeframe is just silly. Even so, the original point was that Kid A is more innovative any everything from 1983 on combined, and GYBE, Taal, 65daysofstatic, Hella, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Mr Bungle, etc. are definately post-1983 and unquestionably very original. I am not saying that Kid A and OK Computer aren't original because even if they were influenced by Aphex Twin, Boards of Canada, Bjork, and The Pixies, everyone is influenced by something; but to say they are the only original group since 1983 only shows incredible ignorance about modern prog.

Originally posted by Moatilliatta Moatilliatta wrote:

The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard may not be the most original of bands, though I really believe each of them have developed their own set of nuances that set them apart, but the certain thing is that they are not awful.
I politely disagree.



I disagree I see a connection with GYBE and Sigur Ros with Radiohead, as for Bjork I think she's a load of Censored. I think most contemporary Symphonic prog is rather weak and my views of innovation are clearly different from yours.



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 07:49
Hard to say that anyone has done anything truly, truly groundbreaking in the past 10 years. The major giant steps taken in ppopular music were largely defined in the late 60s to late 70s, taking what was a simplistic form and seeing what it could absorb from other genres/forms, injecting elements of jazz, music hall, blues, classical, world music, reggae, basically pushing pop's envelope with any and all influences that could be crammed in.
You could look at this way - pop music in that truly innovative period was almost defined by the technology available. The electric guitar and the burgeoning electronics engineering industry that blossomed around it defined the great leaps forward as much as the songwriting which utilised that technology. From a simple method of making acoustic guitars louder we got every weird and wonderful effect under the sun, better amplification the sonic inspiration of harmonically rich distortion, phase, chorus, wah, flange, whatever. The same is true of keyboard technology, piano, Hamond organ, electric piano, Moog, Mellotron, FM synthesis, sampling, etc etc. The sonic possibilities of these facilitators of expression have all acted as catalysts in the great leaps forward. Where would the British blues boom have been without Jim Marshall, Jim Dunlop, Roger Mayer etc, where would psychedelia have been without the electric sitar, Leslie cabinet, Hammond/Farfisa. Where would prog have been without the mini-Moog, Mellotron, Hammond, where would dance music have been without the Roland TB303, Cubase etc.
This isn't to say that the songwriting is irrelevent in all this. It require sparks of Hendrix-like genius to apply the technology, but there is a parallel with classical music - where harpsichord gave way to clavichord to clavier to full piano, lutes ot guitar, the long evolution of woodwinds and horns - all tech advances that inspired composers to greater and greater compositional feats.
The technology of rock (save for the digital recording, synthesis revoliution of the last 20-25 years) is pretty much defined. The palette is large (anything you want really) but the great explorations with this have alreayd been made.
If there is any real innovation these days it comes from fusing disparate elements into something interesting and provoking.
I'd certainly mention Radiohead in this - from OK Computer on they have taken the palette and done some truly amazing things with it. Recent Porcupine Tree too I'd include, their fusion of a classic rock sensibility with elements of 90s and 2000s trip-hop textures and an old interest in trance and overlaying it with a fascination for the sonic possibilities of death metal is really, really interesting, if only for the dynamic swings Steven Wilson can incorporate into his music.
I haven't heard Mushuggah (one of SW's favourites) but must do so.
There's plenty of ground out there left to explore. Some of it has been mapped in rough form already but the possibility of finding new micro-climates still exists.
If it didn't we'd all have stopped buying records when we heard Axis: Bold As Love.


Edited by arcer - April 22 2007 at 08:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 11:37
guys for an interesting new take on the prog palette pls check out The Observatory's latest album a Far Cry From Here..............

www.theobservatory.com.sg



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 11:41
Yes there is. But music has to be more obscure and diffrent today to be original.
There's loads of new RIO/Avant & Post-rock coming. And that sounds pretty original of what i've heard.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 12:32
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

I disagree I see a connection with GYBE and Sigur Ros with Radiohead, as for Bjork I think she's a load of Censored. I think most contemporary Symphonic prog is rather weak and my views of innovation are clearly different from yours.
But how could GYBE be influenced by Radiohead when f#a#(infinity) had all the elements of their sound and was released the same year as OK Computer. It's impossible to be influenced by something that is released at the same time as your record because albums take at least a year or two to make. And The Bends was a good album, but it wasn't prog; it was My Bloody Valentine meets alt-rock. I never said Bjork was any good, but she did influence Radiohead. In fact, as I recall she is friends with Thom. Again, I'm not saying that they aren't innovative.
 
I agree that most contemporary symphonic prog is weak. Didn't you see just now when Moatilla was a bit upset that I called TFK awful? At the moment I'm an avant fan, for crying out loud.
 
With groups that poineered genres (GYBE, Mogwai) and many innovative groups that sound nothing at all like Radiohead (Taal, 65daysofstatic, Hella, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, 65daysofstatic), your statement that Kid A is far and away the absolute most innovative album since 1983 is simply ludicrous.


Edited by Ghandi 2 - April 22 2007 at 12:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2007 at 13:29
Hey guys, opinions are opinions, if one says that radiohead is the most innovative since 83 then respect his opinions. I for one think that sleepytime gorilla museum, Godspeed You black emperor, Taal are really more innovative than radiohead, I mean IMO radiohead compared to these is rather simplistic and not innovative although i can hear it and enjoy it.

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