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Certif1ed

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 11:38

sircosick wrote:

Well, I'm a proghead, but I'm also a brit-pop lover, so I like Oasis, Blur, Smashing Pumpkins, The Verve... And Radiohead is, by far, the best brit-pop band; but as an art-rock band, it doesn't prevent a special attention by prog reviewers. It is not prog, definitively.

Note: Progheads put more attention on "Kid A"; as a brit-pop lover, I could say "Kid A" is the worst Radiohead album.

You've pretty much shot yourself in the foot there, and made the point that Radiohead can be considered prog very nicely!

"as a brit-pop lover, I could say "Kid A" is the worst Radiohead album."

...But as a Prog Rock lover, I could say "Kid A" is the best Radiohead album.

That contradicts your statement "but as an art-rock band, it doesn't prevent a special attention by prog reviewers. It is not prog, definitively." perfectly.

Kid A owes more to Kraftwerk and Can than it does to Oasis, ergo, Radiohead are Prog.

Case closed, yer honour!

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ you wrote that, didn't you? Well done! Clap

...caught

...and if you read the Typical Characteristics, as presented by Wikipedia, you'll note that Radiohead fit the bill perfectly, from OK Computer onwards.

If you think about it, it's more progressive than the average Barclay James Harvest album (from which it appears to draw a lot of inspiration).

No-one disputes BJH as Prog Rock - odd, since they only ever wrote "standard rock songs", with very few exceptions, and NO experimentation.

Edited by Certif1ed - March 03 2007 at 11:43

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 11:40

Floydian42 wrote:

Barley anything on Amnesiac and Kid A is Alternative or Indie. Ok, Pablo Honey and the Bends we're, and I think Ok Computer is Roughly 50/50. That Leaves Hail to the Thief, which I am sure (minus two or three songs) is neither Alternative or Indie.

So If you haven't listened to all there stuff, I can see why you'd be saying that, but if you have I wonder what exactly your definition of Alternative and Indie is.

Please Floydian, if you knew me you wouldn't accuse me of writting anything without having heard it, I have heard each and every Radiohead album and for me it's Indie/Alternative in it's greatest part, maybe one Prog Related albums at the most.

That's my opinion but you can google Radiohead Indie/Alternative (Very specific) and you will find 51,000 links, If you check for the more Generic Radiohead Alternative, you will find 1'490,000 links, if you google for Radiohead Indie, you will find 1'650,000 links, so I'm not alone.

I have quoted the most reliable Prog sites and 4 out of 7 (Not counting PA) don't even mention Radiohead in their database.

If you trust more in mainstream sites, check Allmusic:

Years Active

1910	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	2000

So both, most of the Prog sites and mainstream sites agree in something, it's not Prog and Allmusic describes them as Alternative and Indie plus Britpop.

This appears before BBC's Interview to Radiohead after Hail to the Thief:

Rock's most unlikely superstars Radiohead have returned to the fray with their sixth album Hail To The Thief.

Hailed as the saviours of indie rock and pilloried as pained miserablists in equal measure, the band have swapped their recent experimental sound for something more akin to The Bends and OK Computer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/entertainment/music/radiohead_interview.shtml

BTW: All Radiohead albums since OK Computer except Hail to the Thief won or were nomenees for the Grammy Awards for the Best Alternative albums, prices that they accepted.

So, it's clear, I never talk without support, even when my main source of information is my own knowledge which is probably very limited but I trust in it.

Now, it's not my call to move them but Art Rock's team and they have expressed their opinion which I absolutely respect, but don't try to make me change my opinion because I won't do it and don't insinuate I write smething without having heard it, because that's not how I act.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 03 2007 at 11:44

micky

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 11:40

Certif1ed wrote:

You've pretty much shot yourself in the foot there, and made the point that Radiohead can be considered prog very nicely!

"as a brit-pop lover, I could say "Kid A" is the worst Radiohead album."

...But as a Prog Rock lover, I could say "Kid A" is the best Radiohead album.

That contradicts your statement "but as an art-rock band, it doesn't prevent a special attention by prog reviewers. It is not prog, definitively." perfectly.

Kid A owes more to Kraftwerk and Can than it does to Oasis, ergo, Radiohead are Prog.

Case closed, yer honour!

what he said ^ LOL

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Melomaniac View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 11:42

I don't think a band that release one so-called prog album can be considered prog.

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 12:06

Melomaniac wrote:

I don't think a band that release one so-called prog album can be considered prog.

Luckily, they have more than 1

Alright this thread (like several others before it

) has gotten a bit out of hand

My arguement could end by saying "They've already been accepted by the art rock team, there is no need for debate", but it won't. Therefore I'll use the definition provided by the site to defend my arguement.

1. Long Compositions - I'll concede that they don't have many long compositions, but many other bands widely considered prog didn't have long compositions either and the rules are common butnot definative.

2. Intricate lyrics - Definately Kid A/Amensiac and even OK Computer have these. They are both highly thematic albums which use interesting language to convey messages about the banes of modern life in a way that is both colorful and full of despair.

3. Concept albums - Most of their recent works are conceptual by use of theme. OK Computer is mostly concerning paranoia and dehumanization in the "computer age."

Kid A/Amensiac is a 2 CD concept album basically criticizing modern society for loss of values and emotional detachment along with lack of concern for others and complaceny. Hail to the Thief has the came concept to a lesser extent.

4. Unusual vocals - Thom Yorke's vocal style is highly unique (well recently it has been somewhat copied by modern bands, which makes it all the more important to music) and the band has experimented with abstract vocal patterns (see Like Spinning Plates, which was recorded backwards and Kid A/Pulk/pull Revolving Doors which uses vocal processors for distortion)

5. Electronic instrumentation - basically every album after OK Computer uses electronic instrumentation as an accompanyment to other styles the band uses. It's highly electronic but very different than Electronica/Techno because it's done very differently and used with different instruments as well.

6. Unusual time signatures, scales, tempos - Well I'm no expert on music theory but I do know that they have several songs using time signatures such as 5/4 and 7/4. For example, Paranoid Android switches through several time signatures.

7. Classical music - Again, not too much of this but I think very few prog bands I've heard use classical music as a promenant part of their sound.

8. Music connecting to art - In every booklet of OK Computer and later, there is a huge focus on the album art (some of which band members have made themselves, Thom Yorke and I think Stanley Godrich had an art exoposition using artwork from the albums in Spain recently) For example, Hail to the Thief has artwork used as a map of Los Angeles using the large words similar to the lyrics in the song and on the cover. Kid A and Amnesiac have album art very connected to the music because they are the same in theme. Kid A was even released with a 20 page art booklet with even more art connected directly to the music.

I think that about sums it up, Radiohead are tightly connected to Progressive Rock. They are mostly overlooked as such because they simply don't sell themselves as a Progressive Rock band and mention in every interview how their music was impacted by bands like Pink Floyd or Genesis or something like that.

<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 12:30

Since being progressive is subjective, it's up to each individual to decide. There is no right or wrong answer.

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micky

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 12:41

Avantgardehead wrote:

Since being progressive is subjective, it's up to each individual to decide. There is no right or wrong answer.

yes it is... and as far as the PA's and where they belong.....that is for the art rock team to decide...

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andu

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 13:12

I was a britpop fan in the 90s with Oasis, Verve, Blur, Travis, etc. as major favourites. I liked Radiohead albums, OK Computer the most. I felt it as both good and accessible. Then I heard samples form Kid A and understood nothing - they had changed and evolved beyonf my comprehension from that time, and didn't interest me anymore. So yes there is a strong connection with alternative britpop of the time, and at times identity. However they did reach something the normal britpop and alternative fan, like me, couldn't understand. I'll try to have a listen to their latter albums and come back telling if that something is prog or not.

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 13:23

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I have quoted the most reliable Prog sites and 4 out of 7 (Not counting PA) don't even mention Radiohead in their database.

If you trust more in mainstream sites, check Allmusic:

Years Active

1910	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	2000

So both, most of the Prog sites and mainstream sites agree in something, it's not Prog and Allmusic describes them as Alternative and Indie plus Britpop.

This appears before BBC's Interview to Radiohead after Hail to the Thief:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/entertainment/music/radiohead_interview.shtml

BTW: All Radiohead albums since OK Computer except Hail to the Thief won or were nomenees for the Grammy Awards for the Best Alternative albums, prices that they accepted.

So, it's clear, I never talk without support, even when my main source of information is my own knowledge which is probably very limited but I trust in it.

Iván

I apologize, Don't mean to falsely accuse, I just mean to say most people judge on only a few things they have heard, so I've grown used to expecting that.

Alright, so other website site Radiohead as Alternative/Indie. Both you and I know Prog isn't a very common title, and anyway, I still want to know why you don't consider them prog.... or better yet how you justify albums such as Amnesiac and Kid A as Alternative and Indie.

(And no, I know I'm not going to say your opinion, I doubt anyone would from a random stranger on the internet. I just like knowing the answer.)

Edited by Floydian42 - March 03 2007 at 13:27

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 13:29

@Iván:

I did not quote your answer in order to keep this post short ... I respect your opinion but I just don't think it is representative of the "public opinion". This includes the archives and all the major (and minor) websites as well as the countless magazines and every music fan in the world.

I think that Certif1ed is completely right with his definition of prog, and using this definition Radiohead fit in very well. However, this very abstract and logical definition differs from a "genre elitist" type of definition. It includes much more genres and styles as long as the music is sufficiently complex in various basic aspects, while the "genre elitists" tend to emphasize the stylistic similarities rather than the musical properties. I mean that for them a band that sounds like 70s Genesis has a good chance of being accepted as prog, even if the music itself is only a re-hash of the original.

BTW: Personally I think that either position is too extreme to be applied in real life ... I use a bit of both worlds. Radiohead are an alternative band ... they started as an alternative rock band (although I think that Pablo Honey is a bit underrated - compare it to other successful brit rock/pop bands of the time and you'll notice the difference), and as much as they evolved they are still related to that style, which is not very compatible with the spirit of 70s prog rock ... alternative rock doesn't sit too well with "prog snobs". I don't mean that in any derogative way ... I'm one myself, at least to some extent. But eventually the snobism changes into close-mindedness, if we're not careful ...

In the words of Dream Theater: "seasons change and so must I" ... Times are changing, and so does Prog. With a new generation of people, would it really be surprising that we also get a new generation of prog ... which is as different to the classic prog as the people of the new generation are to their parents?

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 13:53

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

@Iván:

BTW: Personally I think that either position is too extreme to be applied in real life ... I use a bit of both worlds. Radiohead are an alternative band ... they started as an alternative rock band (although I think that Pablo Honey is a bit underrated - compare it to other successful brit rock/pop bands of the time and you'll notice the difference), and as much as they evolved they are still related to that style, which is not very compatible with the spirit of 70s prog rock ... alternative rock doesn't sit too well with "prog snobs". I don't mean that in any derogative way ... I'm one myself, at least to some extent. But eventually the snobism changes into close-mindedness, if we're not careful ...

You hit the nail in the head Mike.

I believe Radiohead belongs in Prog Archives (I even reviewed one of their albums), has a lot of Alternative/Indie elements and some Prog too, but IMHO belongs in Prog Related being that they are not a 100% Prog band.

Iván

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:05

^ maybe you're just more "genre elitist" than me. Radiohead are an alternative band, and part of a "genre" which is called "Alternative Experimental" by some. In a way these bands relate to modern prog like the "Krautrock" bands related to the Prog Rock bands of the 70s. Technically bands like Can aren't "Prog Rock" either ... but their presence is tolerated by most prog fans.

But why do you insist that they're moved to prog related ... do you really think that albums like Kid A or Amnesiac are not progressive enough? There are far less complex bands in the archives ... and I'm not talking about borderline bands like Rhapsody or Nightwish.

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:15

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ maybe you're just more "genre elitist" than me. Radiohead are an alternative band, and part of a "genre" which is called "Alternative Experimental" by some. In a way these bands relate to modern prog like the "Krautrock" bands related to the Prog Rock bands of the 70s. Technically bands like Can aren't "Prog Rock" either ... but their presence is tolerated by most prog fans.

But why do you insist that they're moved to prog related ... do you really think that albums like Kid A or Amnesiac are not progressive enough? There are far less complex bands in the archives ... and I'm not talking about borderline bands like Rhapsody or Nightwish.

Mike I'm not insisting in anything I clearly stated:

They are here to stay.
They are Art Rock's team call
They have already gave an opinion that I respect.

But if I'm asked my opinion, I won't lie, I see them barely Prog in a couple of albums, but the repetitive essense of their music the variations over the same theme, the clear references to REM, Pearl Jam and Talking Heads, their own iinfluence on Btritpop bands like Coldplay and Muse, the "I give a damn for life" sound a la Nirvana, make me think in the word Alternative ecvery time I listen them.

Iván

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:18

^ none of what you describe above can be heard on Kid A.

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Snow Dog

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:19

Alternative to what? The mainstream? In which case Prog fills thet nicely and is also "alternative".

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:21

Snow Dog wrote:

Alternative to what? The mainstream? In which case Prog fills thet nicely and is also "alternative".

You got that right, I have to admit... But some will not like this statement at all !

Here's a

for your courage to say this !

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:22

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ none of what you describe above can be heard on Kid A.

Honestly I hear it LOL

This is subjective, specially when a band generates so dicvided o'pinions as in this case.

Iván

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ none of what you describe above can be heard on Kid A.

Honestly I hear it LOL

This is subjective, specially when a band generates so dicvided o'pinions as in this case.

Iván

exactly.... and since this is an inclusive site... they sould be included since none of us thinks they know better than anyone else do they. Opinoins are very devided..which in my prog-view is a good thing. Prog is a road well travelled.. if you can say...yes.. that is prog.. it's probably because you've heard it a 100 times.. and done even better. Radiohead is prog.. and will thrown my considerable stubborness to make sure they stay in AR. Which can be quite considerable LOL

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:30

Snow Dog wrote:

Alternative to what? The mainstream? In which case Prog fills thet nicely and is also "alternative".

Alternative Rock or Alternative Music:

Alternative rock (also called alternative music^[1] or simply alternative) is a genre of rock music that emerged in the 1980s and became widely popular in the 1990s. The name "alternative" was coined in the 1980s to describe punk rock-inspired bands on independent record labels that didn't fit into the mainstream genres of the time.^[2] As a specific genre of music, alternative rock consists of various subgenres that have emerged from the indie music scene since the 1980s, such as grunge, indie rock, Britpop, gothic rock, and indie pop. These genres are unified by their collective debt to the style and/or ethos of punk, which laid the groundwork for alternative music in the 1970s.^[3]

Though the genre is considered to be rock, some of its subgenres are influenced by folk music, reggae, electronic music and jazz among other genres. At times alternative rock has been used as a catch-all phrase for rock music from underground artists in the 1980s, all music descended from punk rock (including punk itself, New Wave, and post-punk), and, ironically, for rock music in general in the 1990s and 2000s.

http://www.answers.com/topic/alternative-rock

No comments required to the definition of Alternative (With capital A) used.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 03 2007 at 14:31

Snow Dog

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Posted: March 03 2007 at 14:33

Sounds like it could encompass prog too.

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