Double-bass drumming...

^ I like many things, including technicality. That's one of the reasons why I also like classical music and jazz, which are far more technical than rock or metal. Still, the technicality does not automatically rule out taste.

BTW: It was a drum solo ... of course he includes show effects. He doesn't want to bore the audience to tears!

Edit: Did all the stick twirling distract you from the topic ... I would have expected better from you! What about the double bass/cymbal pattern around 2:30?


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - February 27 2007 at 06:08

^ I couldn't stand a world without cheese.

To me technicality is one of the required attributes of a good musician ... to others it doesn't matter at all. And some people don't like when musicians show how well they can play - whenever the technicality becomes too aparent they complain that it's too flashy (or what you call "Kraftmeierei"). In classical music people do it all the time and nobody would *dare* to complain about it. They have to stick to the composition note for note and are only allowed to make tiny, almost inaudible variations ... nobody complains.

Now should I feel bad when I like the same thing in rock and metal? I don't think so - and neither should you or anyone else feel bad because of our disagreements.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I couldn't stand a world without cheese. To me technicality is one of the required attributes of a good musician ... to others it doesn't matter at all. And some people don't like when musicians show how well they can play - whenever the technicality becomes too aparent they complain that it's too flashy (or what you call "Kraftmeierei"). In classical music people do it all the time and nobody would *dare* to complain about it. They have to stick to the composition note for note and are only allowed to make tiny, almost inaudible variations ... nobody complains. Now should I feel bad when I like the same thing in rock and metal? I don't think so - and neither should you or anyone else feel bad because of our disagreements.

Technicality is one thing, Mike. I have nothing against technicality at all; on the contrary, I very much admire it. But if technicality does not serve the music it becomes hollow. And these double bass drum acrobatics are nothing but "Mätzchen", in my opinion.
If I ever used two bass drums in a kit (which is not likely), I would do something completely different with them, which from a technical point of view is just as difficult as playing 16ths on them. I have developed a certain accelerating rhythm pattern that changes between four against three and three against two all the time, but changing the extremity that keeps the steady beat; thus the rhythm slowly accelerates. It is quite difficult to explain (but easy to demonstrate with a drum kit). The interesting thing about this is that I only accelerate one extremity. I will try to explain it by using the hands as example: Both hands play a steady beat, but while the left hand plays three beats in a certain time the right hand plays four at the same time, or let's rather say the left hand plays six while the right hand plays eight, because that easier shows what happens. I keep the pace of the left hand then and accelerate the pace of the right hand a bit, so it plays nine steady beats now at the same time the left hand plays six. The tricky part is what follows: I then accelerate the left hand again, so that we are back to six against eight, but since both hands have accelerated I am back in the original rhythm, only faster! Since the tempo shift is done switching between the hands one hand always keeps a steady pace while the other accelerates, only the hands switch in doing so. This is a very interesting effect and a bit stunning for the listener, who can't quite understand why it gets faster, since one hand always keeps the pace. Doing something like that with two bass drums instead of the hands would be about the only thing that would interest me in it.
The other two extremities you can either use the same way or use them for syncopating only (which I prefer), because of this special kind of accelerating which mathematically doesn't allow anything else.

Here's an interesting example, Friede:

http://www.painofsalvation.com/samples.htm

Listen to the track "Handful of Nothing" and tell me what you think about it.

i like it when it fits the music

Yes, when it fits the music

When it fits the music, yes.

BaldFriede wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ here's a video that should be interesting to watch for any drummer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inhckpMxxdo ... around 2:25 he plays an interesting mix of ultra-fast double bass and hi-hat "simulated" with a very small cymbal. Now really, Mike, I would have expected something better from you. Do you really consider that tasteful drumming? Jeeze, he even did some stick twirling! Sorry, Mike, that doesn't impress me at all. A good technician, but also very definitely someone whose drumming borders on the tastelessness. Show effects. If you like that... <shrug> This one is more my cup of tea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3lYRqcjP6I I admit there are some "show effects" in it too, but of a completely different kind. You don't have to be whirling all the time to play a good drum solo; it soon gets boring.

Edited by Tony R - February 27 2007 at 18:49

To make it clear again: I just don't like the use of two bass drums. Period. Telling me how great it is what the players play is as useless as telling someone who doesn't like spinach how nutritious is it and how much protein it contains; spinach would still be "yuk" for that person. For me the use of double bass drums is plain boring. But if some people love it - let them! Some people also put horse-radish on oysters or ice into their Scotch.
And yes, I do question the artistic value of using two bass drums. It can be compared to critisizing the violin tone of Ann-Sophie Mutter, for example. She certainly is a virtuoso on the instrument, but many music critics complain about her tone and find it manneristic and thus diminish her artistical value. One can agree with them or not; the fact that she knows how to play her instrument is not changed by that at all. Just as I don't question the instrumental capacities of Virgil Donati. But his use of two bass drums I consider to be a mannerism. And nothing will change my opinion on that.
By the way, I don't consider these bass drum whirls to be aggressive at all. By making a blur of the bass drum hits they lose the effectiveness and power a single hit has.


Edited by BaldFriede - February 28 2007 at 01:46

As with all things... if the composition works, it's ok. If only for technique show, then no. I love a good drummer if used correctly, I can also enjoy electronic drums if used correctly (Boards of Canada). It is not a matter of "what", but "Why", as in "why using this".