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Topic ClosedDissection of animals
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Poll Question: Do you agree with the "farming" of animals for dissection?
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11 [37.93%]
18 [62.07%]
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Arrrghus View Drop Down
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Points: 5296 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dissection of animals
    Posted: February 24 2007 at 11:59
This is a serious poll.

Last year in Biology, I began to realize the cruelty of raising animals such as frogs and cats to be used as "learning tools" for students. These animals have no way of consenting the desecration of their remains. I would not want students cutting my corpse up without my consent.
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Kid-A View Drop Down
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Points: 613 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 12:36
How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?
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Vompatti View Drop Down
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Points: 67440 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 13:48
Let the students cut each other and leave the poor animals alone. Angry
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Arrrghus View Drop Down
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Points: 5296 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 20:32
Originally posted by Kid-A Kid-A wrote:

How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?


That's where we run into a serious moral dilemma. We have to kill animals to save animals.
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Witchwoodhermit View Drop Down
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Points: 871 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:02
[QUOTE=Kid-A]How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?
 
 
 
Correct.
How are students supposed to learn how to heal the sick, human or animal, without learning how the body works- and looks? Maps, plastic models and computer generations are NO substitute for real life.
If reality and sensitive subjects upset you, turn away. The real world is a very hard and cold place.
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Arrrghus View Drop Down
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Points: 5296 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:04
Originally posted by Witchwoodhermit Witchwoodhermit wrote:

[QUOTE=Kid-A]How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?



 
 

 

Correct.

How are students supposed to learn how to heal the sick, human or animal, without learning how the body works- and looks? Maps, plastic models and computer generations are NO substitute for real life.

If reality and sensitive subjects upset you, turn away. The real world is a very hard and cold place.


I know... reality does suck. But sometimes you have to wonder: would you want to be killed in the name of science. Think long and hard about this...
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:12
Originally posted by Arrrghus Arrrghus wrote:

Originally posted by Kid-A Kid-A wrote:

How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?


That's where we run into a serious moral dilemma. We have to kill animals to save animals.
I agree that in Vet universities this method can't be totally avoided but of course limited to the minimum possible.
 
What is cruel and criminal is to do it in schools by millions of incapable students with no medical trainning and guided by teachers that normally have absolutely no knowledge of animal anathomy except some theoric classes.
 
Maybe 1% of this school students or less will ever do some vet related work, in the meanwhile this animals are massacred with absolutely cruelty because I don't believe they even use anaesthetics or have any skills.
 
Iván
            
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Witchwoodhermit View Drop Down
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Points: 871 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:29
Ivan_Melgar_M
animals are massacred with absolutely cruelty because I don't believe they even use anaesthetics or have any skills.
 
 
IVAN!!!
You of all people using hearsay???
As a person of education I'd expect you to understand the need for the tools for knowledge. A teacher cannot teach on theory alone.
 
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:48
Originally posted by Witchwoodhermit Witchwoodhermit wrote:

[QUOTE=Kid-A]How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?
 
 
 
Correct.
How are students supposed to learn how to heal the sick, human or animal, without learning how the body works- and looks? Maps, plastic models and computer generations are NO substitute for real life.
If reality and sensitive subjects upset you, turn away. The real world is a very hard and cold place.
 
Very nicely said, I totally agree.
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KoS View Drop Down
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Points: 16310 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:24
That was my favorite part in Biology class.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:34
Originally posted by Witchwoodhermit Witchwoodhermit wrote:

 
 
IVAN!!!
You of all people using hearsay???
As a person of education I'd expect you to understand the need for the tools for knowledge. A teacher cannot teach on theory alone.
 
 
I clearly said, for Vet or medicine universities it's OK, you have to do it even if I don't like it as I don't like bullfighting in  a country where it's a tradition of 400 years.
 
I'ts unnecessary too kill 150 frogs or hamsters in high schools with kids that don't require that knowledge and will do it with cruelty because their lack of skills, use models with them or computer simulations, with the few that decide to study proffesions that require that knowledge, use animals.
 
Iván
 
 
            
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Chris H View Drop Down
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Points: 8191 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Witchwoodhermit Witchwoodhermit wrote:

 
 
IVAN!!!
You of all people using hearsay???
As a person of education I'd expect you to understand the need for the tools for knowledge. A teacher cannot teach on theory alone.
 
 
I clearly said, for Vet or medicine universities it's OK, you have to do it even if I don't like it as I don't like bullfighting in  a country where it's a tradition of 400 years.
 
I'ts unnecessary too kill 150 frogs or hamsters in high schools with kids that don't require that knowledge and will do it with cruelty because their lack of skills, use models with them or computer simulations, with the few that decide to study proffesions that require that knowledge, use animals.
 
Iván
 
 
 
I agree with Ivan. Why teach kids this stuff if they arent gonna use it?
Don't kill an animal so you can teach somebody how to disect it if they wanna be a lawyer. Its pointless.
Beauty will save the world.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:43
Originally posted by Zappa88 Zappa88 wrote:

 
I agree with Ivan. Why teach kids this stuff if they arent gonna use it?
Don't kill an animal so you can teach somebody how to disect it if they wanna be a lawyer. Its pointless.
 
Thanks, that's my point, I had to kill 5 or 6 frogs in school (refused to kill the hamster who ended as  pet and I with an F), for what in hell did I required that?
 
I don't need to skin a frog to go to court.
 
I hated it and I remember that the instructions by an old and tired teacher to 45 students of how to kill the central nerve system was hardly understood,. I saw some of my classmates opening the poor animal tootally awake because they never understood the procedure.
 
NONE of my classmates is a Vet, not a single one, why in hell did those animals where killed with cruelty?
 
Most are Lawyers or Engineers, only a couple of Medical Doctors (Here Medicine takes 9 years in the University so most avoid it) who say this is useless for their practice.
 
What was the need?
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 25 2007 at 00:46
            
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The Miracle View Drop Down
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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:48
One thing is raising animals for food, another one is to be cut basically for waste. Kids can learn from pictures(like they learn anything anyways...), leave dissections for labs where these experiments are really necessary.
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:04
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

One thing is raising animals for food, another one is to be cut basically for waste. Kids can learn from pictures(like they learn anything anyways...), leave dissections for labs where these experiments are really necessary.
 
That's another good point,  WASTE.
 
I was taught with strict rules, no living being must be killed without a purpose, I begged for a rifle, after years my parents accepted, but the rules were clear, if you kill something YOU EAT IT, as clear as that, even if it was a skunk, I knew my mother would make me eat and my sister was like the Gestapo on those days, so she would ask, find and tell.
 
I once shoot a little bird and I had to feather it, clean it, cook it and eat it, since that day I only shooted targets because it tasted like crap.
 
I believe teaching kids with animals is creating violence, once you kill a frog it's easier to kill a hamster, then a cat or a dog and then who knows, sorry but I can't accept it except when strictly necessary for a purpose.
 
Not either using animals to test cosmetics in labs, you can use dead human tissue with better results, but the cosmetic factories can get animals cheaper than human skin.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 25 2007 at 01:06
            
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Points: 11682 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:07
I think it's a reasonable method for like people in College or University specifically designed for Vetinary Studies, but kind of a waste for the typical high-school student who has no use to gain from the experience.
<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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Witchwoodhermit View Drop Down
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Points: 871 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:19
What is considered as waste by the uninterested is knowledge for the interested. It's fine to sit in judgement of that that does not affect us. As distasteful as it may feel, those specimans were also the catalyst for medical careers.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:25
Originally posted by Witchwoodhermit Witchwoodhermit wrote:

What is considered as waste by the uninterested is knowledge for the interested. It's fine to sit in judgement of that that does not affect us. As distasteful as it may feel, those specimans were also the catalyst for medical careers.
 
Then leave it for the interested and those are Vet students, sadistic school kids are not interested, unless they want to learn where is more lethal to stab their partners.
 
Even my friends who are human doctors have told me that they learned nothing with animals, they learned 100 more times with corpses, but the universities can't afford a corpse for every student because believe it or not, human corpses are sold while animals are even taken from houses, the universities pay tips to kids who bring dogs, cats or anything without asking where they come from.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 564 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:38
Originally posted by Witchwoodhermit Witchwoodhermit wrote:

[
Correct.
How are students supposed to learn how to heal the sick, human or animal, without learning how the body works- and looks? Maps, plastic models and computer generations are NO substitute for real life.
If reality and sensitive subjects upset you, turn away. The real world is a very hard and cold place.


 The Issue here is raising animals for use as learning tools for the masses. It's absurd when our animal shelters routinely destroy unwanted animals. Even if that were not the case not everyone needs to see the insides of animals to learn about them. Even many medical specialties don't need first hand experience. Only those training to be surgeons have to have hands on experience with living tissue. It would suffice for the rest to merely witness a dissection perhaps even on video. The world is a hard place were there is as much death as life. Since we Humans seem to be the only species around that can grasp the sanctitiy of life I think we owe it to the world to not cause needless death. We are capable of being better than that.

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Flyingsod View Drop Down
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Points: 564 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:42
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
I once shoot a little bird and I had to feather it, clean it, cook it and eat it, since that day I only shooted targets because it tasted like crap.

 
Iván



That struck me as very funny. On a deeper level though, I'd like to see the world adopt a similar attitude.

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