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Dissection of animals

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Topic: Dissection of animals

Posted By: Arrrghus
Subject: Dissection of animals
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 11:59

This is a serious poll.

Last year in Biology, I began to realize the cruelty of raising animals such as frogs and cats to be used as "learning tools" for students. These animals have no way of consenting the desecration of their remains. I would not want students cutting my corpse up without my consent.

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Replies:

Posted By: Kid-A
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 12:36

How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?

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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 13:48

Let the students cut each other and leave the poor animals alone. Angry

Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 20:32

Kid-A wrote:

How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?

That's where we run into a serious moral dilemma. We have to kill animals to save animals.

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Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:02

[QUOTE=Kid-A]How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?

Correct.

How are students supposed to learn how to heal the sick, human or animal, without learning how the body works- and looks? Maps, plastic models and computer generations are NO substitute for real life.

If reality and sensitive subjects upset you, turn away. The real world is a very hard and cold place.

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Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.

Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:04

Witchwoodhermit wrote:

[QUOTE=Kid-A]How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?

Correct.

If reality and sensitive subjects upset you, turn away. The real world is a very hard and cold place.

I know... reality does suck. But sometimes you have to wonder: would you want to be killed in the name of science. Think long and hard about this...

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:12

Arrrghus wrote:

Kid-A wrote:

How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?

That's where we run into a serious moral dilemma. We have to kill animals to save animals.

I agree that in Vet universities this method can't be totally avoided but of course limited to the minimum possible.

What is cruel and criminal is to do it in schools by millions of incapable students with no medical trainning and guided by teachers that normally have absolutely no knowledge of animal anathomy except some theoric classes.

Maybe 1% of this school students or less will ever do some vet related work, in the meanwhile this animals are massacred with absolutely cruelty because I don't believe they even use anaesthetics or have any skills.

Iván

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Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:29

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=318&FID=45 - Ivan_Melgar_M

animals are massacred with absolutely cruelty because I don't believe they even use anaesthetics or have any skills.

IVAN!!!

You of all people using hearsay???

As a person of education I'd expect you to understand the need for the tools for knowledge. A teacher cannot teach on theory alone.

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Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.

Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 23:48

Witchwoodhermit wrote:

[QUOTE=Kid-A]How else are you supposed to develop vetinary science then?

Correct.

If reality and sensitive subjects upset you, turn away. The real world is a very hard and cold place.

Very nicely said, I totally agree.

Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:24

That was my favorite part in Biology class.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:34

Witchwoodhermit wrote:

IVAN!!!

You of all people using hearsay???

As a person of education I'd expect you to understand the need for the tools for knowledge. A teacher cannot teach on theory alone.

I clearly said, for Vet or medicine universities it's OK, you have to do it even if I don't like it as I don't like bullfighting in a country where it's a tradition of 400 years.

I'ts unnecessary too kill 150 frogs or hamsters in high schools with kids that don't require that knowledge and will do it with cruelty because their lack of skills, use models with them or computer simulations, with the few that decide to study proffesions that require that knowledge, use animals.

Iván

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Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:36

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Witchwoodhermit wrote:

IVAN!!!

You of all people using hearsay???

As a person of education I'd expect you to understand the need for the tools for knowledge. A teacher cannot teach on theory alone.

I clearly said, for Vet or medicine universities it's OK, you have to do it even if I don't like it as I don't like bullfighting in a country where it's a tradition of 400 years.

Iván

I agree with Ivan. Why teach kids this stuff if they arent gonna use it?

Don't kill an animal so you can teach somebody how to disect it if they wanna be a lawyer. Its pointless.

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Beauty will save the world.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:43

Zappa88 wrote:

I agree with Ivan. Why teach kids this stuff if they arent gonna use it?

Don't kill an animal so you can teach somebody how to disect it if they wanna be a lawyer. Its pointless.

Thanks, that's my point, I had to kill 5 or 6 frogs in school (refused to kill the hamster who ended as pet and I with an F), for what in hell did I required that?

I don't need to skin a frog to go to court.

I hated it and I remember that the instructions by an old and tired teacher to 45 students of how to kill the central nerve system was hardly understood,. I saw some of my classmates opening the poor animal tootally awake because they never understood the procedure.

NONE of my classmates is a Vet, not a single one, why in hell did those animals where killed with cruelty?

Most are Lawyers or Engineers, only a couple of Medical Doctors (Here Medicine takes 9 years in the University so most avoid it) who say this is useless for their practice.

What was the need?

Iván

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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 00:48

One thing is raising animals for food, another one is to be cut basically for waste. Kids can learn from pictures(like they learn anything anyways...), leave dissections for labs where these experiments are really necessary.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:04

The Miracle wrote:

One thing is raising animals for food, another one is to be cut basically for waste. Kids can learn from pictures(like they learn anything anyways...), leave dissections for labs where these experiments are really necessary.

That's another good point, WASTE.

I was taught with strict rules, no living being must be killed without a purpose, I begged for a rifle, after years my parents accepted, but the rules were clear, if you kill something YOU EAT IT, as clear as that, even if it was a skunk, I knew my mother would make me eat and my sister was like the Gestapo on those days, so she would ask, find and tell.

I once shoot a little bird and I had to feather it, clean it, cook it and eat it, since that day I only shooted targets because it tasted like crap.

I believe teaching kids with animals is creating violence, once you kill a frog it's easier to kill a hamster, then a cat or a dog and then who knows, sorry but I can't accept it except when strictly necessary for a purpose.

Not either using animals to test cosmetics in labs, you can use dead human tissue with better results, but the cosmetic factories can get animals cheaper than human skin.

Iván

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Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:07

I think it's a reasonable method for like people in College or University specifically designed for Vetinary Studies, but kind of a waste for the typical high-school student who has no use to gain from the experience.

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<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]

Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:19

What is considered as waste by the uninterested is knowledge for the interested. It's fine to sit in judgement of that that does not affect us. As distasteful as it may feel, those specimans were also the catalyst for medical careers.

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Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:25

Witchwoodhermit wrote:

What is considered as waste by the uninterested is knowledge for the interested. It's fine to sit in judgement of that that does not affect us. As distasteful as it may feel, those specimans were also the catalyst for medical careers.

Then leave it for the interested and those are Vet students, sadistic school kids are not interested, unless they want to learn where is more lethal to stab their partners.

Even my friends who are human doctors have told me that they learned nothing with animals, they learned 100 more times with corpses, but the universities can't afford a corpse for every student because believe it or not, human corpses are sold while animals are even taken from houses, the universities pay tips to kids who bring dogs, cats or anything without asking where they come from.

Iván

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Posted By: Flyingsod
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:38

Witchwoodhermit wrote:

[

Correct.

If reality and sensitive subjects upset you, turn away. The real world is a very hard and cold place.

The Issue here is raising animals for use as learning tools for the masses. It's absurd when our animal shelters routinely destroy unwanted animals. Even if that were not the case not everyone needs to see the insides of animals to learn about them. Even many medical specialties don't need first hand experience. Only those training to be surgeons have to have hands on experience with living tissue. It would suffice for the rest to merely witness a dissection perhaps even on video. The world is a hard place were there is as much death as life. Since we Humans seem to be the only species around that can grasp the sanctitiy of life I think we owe it to the world to not cause needless death. We are capable of being better than that.

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Posted By: Flyingsod
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 01:42

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I once shoot a little bird and I had to feather it, clean it, cook it and eat it, since that day I only shooted targets because it tasted like crap.

Iván

That struck me as very funny. On a deeper level though, I'd like to see the world adopt a similar attitude.

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Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 02:04

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=318&FID=45 - Ivan_Melgar_M

Then leave it for the interested and those are Vet students, sadistic school kids are not interested, unless they want to learn where is more lethal to stab their partners.

You disappoint me Ivan. I thought better of you.

A real life experience can change the course of a students career. For the untrained to "get down and dirty" for the first time can be a life altering event.

The realization of the ability to cope and be interested in the common workings of living things is a high and enlightened educational road.

Sometimes youth need to introduced to their gifts through life experience. Not models and images.

Sympathy for all living things is a human moral. A valuable moral.

Education is a human need. Education requires knowledge, and the tools to learn.

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Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.

Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 06:44

I voted no. I agree with Ivan's statements. No need to kill animal if one's never going to make use of the knowledge one acquires.

Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 07:18

i'd like to say that animal dissection for science and medical purposes is a necessary evil.

i agree that being a medical student doesn't mean that you have to do animal dissection, unless you would become a surgeon, or other position that really needs you to have such knowledges.

sometimes we have to sacrifice something in order to gain other thing(s), that's just the way of the world. however, these sacrifices shouldn't be misused, for example, by slaughtering lots and lots of animals when such a thing isn't really a necessary thing to do. The key to this issue, i think is not to overdone it.

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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 12:30

Witchwoodhermit wrote:

You disappoint me Ivan. I thought better of you.

Why? Because I try to respect every form of life when it's not strictly necessary to put an end to it?

I was answered with very similar arguments when I wote an article against bullfighting, a guy wrote that how a person who claims to love the art dares to write against a traditional form of art in Perú, that it was part of our culture.

Yeah, as the Circus was part of the Roman culture.

A real life experience can change the course of a students career. For the untrained to "get down and dirty" for the first time can be a life altering event.

Killing an animal won't help 99.99% of the stuidents, by the contrary it will kill the sensibility of a lot of them.

I had to kill several frogs and it has no purpose in my life, it taugh me nothing, I learned nothing and I find it repulsive.

BTW: Yes it's a life altering event, it alters the life of the animal or nore clearly puts an end to it.

The realization of the ability to cope and be interested in the common workings of living things is a high and enlightened educational road.

This is not a common working of living, kiloing animals is not necessary for high school students, they won't learn anything except to kill.

Sometimes youth need to introduced to their gifts through life experience. Not models and images.

Gifts? Isn't life in any of it's forms the most precious gift?

Sympathy for all living things is a human moral. A valuable moral.

Education is a human need. Education requires knowledge, and the tools to learn.

A Vet student has to kill animals toi learn to heal them, a school student doesn't need to kill animals because he's not going to heal anybody in lets say 90'% of the cases.

And the other 10% will have the chance to do it when they have the previous trainning to make it without cruelty and has a purpose to learn, not just see how is the interior of an animal.

I believe that USA students will find more useful to learn that Bolivia is in South America and not in Africa, that Kingston is the capital of Jamaica or to teach the high percentage of almost iliterate stufdents how to read than to kill frogs.

Neglecting students’ literacy has serious economic consequences for individuals and states. Today, almost 40 percent of high school graduates lack the reading and writing skills that employers seek, and almost a third of high school graduates who enroll in college require remediation. Deficits in basic skills cost the nation’s businesses, universities, and under-prepared high school graduates as much as $16 billion annually in lost productivity and remedial costs.” javascript:windowPopCenter%28footnotes/01-06.html,pop,400,350,yes%29 - ⁶

Only 31 percent of eighth graders and 34 percent of twelfth graders meet the National Assessment of Educational Progress standard of reading “proficiency” for their grade level. (National Assessment of Educational Progress, 2002) http://www.carnegie.org/literacy/why.html - http://www.carnegie.org/literacy/why.html

If this happens in USA, imagine how terrible it is in third world countries? It's scary, but children everywhere know how to kill a frog, because frogs are cheaper than books.

I believe reading is more important than killing animals.

Iván

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Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 13:28

^^^That's more like it.

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Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.

Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 09:24

Animals have no rights, or rather should have no rights. The only law forbidding mistreatment of animals should stem from ownership issues like damaging someone else's property. I'm all for dissection of animals.

Ivan: We can easily teach them both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like. They're two different classes. So you don't have to worry about one interfering with the other.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: xenuwantsyou
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 12:14

I'm about start a cat dissection in my Bio II class in my high school. I know not all the students in the class will grow up to be vets or doctors, but I also know that I and a handful of others took the class because we enjoy learning about science. To make the statement that we're all just a bunch of clumsy teenagers with no scientific motives being taught by a hack teacher is just ignorant.

Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 12:20

When my mother was going through nursing school she had to skin a cat and dissect a pig. It was part of the program to give them necessary skills for the potential jobs they might have taken. My mother didn't like it and so she stayed away from surgery and went into Labor and Delivery.

It is not useless it teaches you skills you could use without practicing on a human, unless you want people to practice surgery methods on people instead of animals like frogs and cats.

Posted By: Jeams Pfirp
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 21:24

I voted no.

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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:06

It's nessessary. People getting an education have a right to know what their insides look like. There aren't enough human cadavers to go around, and books are no replacement for actual dissection, so animal dissection is the only option.

Besides, would you want to be operated on by a surgeon who had little experience outside of reading a few textbooks?

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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:10

In Medical schools they don't kill people for research. They use the cadavers of people who have already died. Why can't they do the same with animals?

As far as the high schools are concerned, it is totally ridiculous. We had to do fetal pigs when I was a sophomore. I can't think of one valuable thing that was actually learned by that. All I remember is the horrific smell of the formaldehyde.

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a.k.a. H.T.

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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:13

bhikkhu wrote:

In Medical schools they don't kill people for research. They use the cadavers of people who have already died. Why can't they do the same with animals?

Because they are killed before they have died naturally and used for food.

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Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:39

I voted no. I never looked into myself, but I can assure you, I have a very good image of what my insides look like. I don't have a problem guessing if it hurts in my liver or my lungs or whatever inside there. we never open frogs, or guinea pigs, or cats for that matter in Finland, and I don't see a reason to start. You say people need to cut an animal to get interested. Well, in that case they should make people build houses and boats to get them interested in that, they should make everyone design a nuclear reactor and build one so they'd find their interest in it and become professionals in the future.

The whole thought is absurd. Are we really lacking vetenarians? No. How many of them cut a frog in school? None. And please note, that even though *surgeons* do explore the wonders of a dead body, a doctor is taught by another, whereas a vet could be taught by others, and they do often follow cases, where an other doctor or a vet proceeds with a treatment to a patient na d they learn.

Personally I would never cut a frog, should we come to that. We once cut fish in our class. Those were some our teacher had caught the other day, and brought them to school. We opened them, looked at them, removed the guts, and he took them home and made dinner. So instead of opening them himself he brought them to us to let us learn something, but he didn't grow them for the purpose. And besides I've cut a fish hundreds of times, I need to know where everything is to not spoil the food part. Though this I learned because I was told how it happened, not by killing 12 fish wrongly.

Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 22:47

rileydog22 wrote:

bhikkhu wrote:

In Medical schools they don't kill people for research. They use the cadavers of people who have already died. Why can't they do the same with animals?

Because they are killed before they have died naturally and used for food.

That's a whole other issue.

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a.k.a. H.T.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 23:50

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Ivan: We can easily teach them both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like. They're two different classes. So you don't have to worry about one interfering with the other.

The problem is that:

Less than 20% knows or cares where is Bolivia.
5% of USA citizens are absolutely illiterate
Only 34% of the graduates of high school have the minimum (Not excelent, not good, not average) basic reading skills. This means 66% of USA High School graduates have severe limitations,
- 13 percent of America's 17-year-olds are "functionally illiterate."
- 34% have severe limitations that will make them almost unable to find a job
- 19% of the students will need remedies, but 33% of the ones who reach college will also need remedies, this is crazy, they reach College but have to read John Jean and Judy
100% of USA students have opened a frog, a hamster and now a cat, probably stolen from a family and approximately only 1350 students graduate as Doctors in Veterinary every year in all USA while .1'679,000 high school kids graduate anually, less than 1 per 1,000 will maybe require this experience, and remember, surely less because kids kill animals during several grades.

A surgeon may need to open an animal, a Vet surely needs it, but it's stupid, unnecessary or criminal to let a unskilled student massacre a living being.

I believe the priorities are in a wrong place.

Now about animal rights, only a person without any sensibility can say animals don't have rights except if economically valuablem, 100 years people from different races didn't had rights probably in 50 years people will see us as insensitive beasts for killing animals.

Iván

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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 26 2007 at 23:58

f**k, why don't we cut up people instead, I think about half my school body would qualify already as "wastes", why not put them to educational (and entertaining) use?

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 00:56

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The problem is that:

Less than 20% knows or cares where is Bolivia.
5% of USA citizens are absolutely illiterate
Only 34% of the graduates of high school have the minimum (Not excelent, not good, not average) basic reading skills. This means 66% of USA High School graduates have severe limitations,
- 13 percent of America's 17-year-olds are "functionally illiterate."
- 34% have severe limitations that will make them almost unable to find a job
- 19% of the students will need remedies, but 33% of the ones who reach college will also need remedies, this is crazy, they reach College but have to read John Jean and Judy
100% of USA students have opened a frog, a hamster and now a cat, probably stolen from a family and approximately only 1350 students graduate as Doctors in Veterinary every year in all USA while .1'679,000 high school kids graduate anually, less than 1 per 1,000 will maybe require this experience, and remember, surely less because kids kill animals during several grades.

A surgeon may need to open an animal, a Vet surely needs it, but it's stupid, unnecessary or criminal to let a unskilled student massacre a living being.

I believe the priorities are in a wrong place.

Iván

There's a big difference between animals and people. No amount of time will change that. Saying 100 years ago, blacks didn't have the same rights as whites is completely different. There lies a distinction in that blacks and whites are not different. However, frogs and humans are very different. Are you a vegetarian Ivan?

Where did you get your numbers? The US literacy rate 99% from the CIA world factbook (Could have swore it was 99.7% though). 100% of US students have not dissected an animal, I can speak from personal experience. 4 people in my high school's bio class chose not to dissect. Also, what does caring where Bolivia is have to do with anything? I would love to see that poll. I personally don't care where Bolivia is (although I know) and I think a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy is far more important than knowing where Bolivia is. Hands on experience with an important scientific foundation vs. knowing where to put an inconsequential country with an GDP of 8 billion on a map. I think the dissection wins.

If we give animals rights, I see no reason to not ban soup and disinfectants. They're killing helpless creatures. Humans are such bullies.

And why did this thread turn into a let's bash how stupid US citizens are thread?

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 02:29

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

There's a big difference between animals and people. No amount of time will change that. Saying 100 years ago, blacks didn't have the same rights as whites is completely different. There lies a distinction in that blacks and whites are not different. However, frogs and humans are very different. Are you a vegetarian Ivan?

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Where did you get your numbers? The US literacy rate 99% from the CIA world factbook (Could have swore it was 99.7% though). 100% of US students have not dissected an animal, I can speak from personal experience. 4 people in my high school's bio class chose not to dissect. Also, what does caring where Bolivia is have to do with anything? I would love to see that poll. I personally don't care where Bolivia is (although I know) and I think a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy is far more important than knowing where Bolivia is. Hands on experience with an important scientific foundation vs. knowing where to put an inconsequential country with an GDP of 8 billion on a map. I think the dissection wins.

Seems you have troubles if you believe CIA, they were the ones who talked about the Weapoms of Massive Destruction.

My numbers as usual are supported

The Illiterate Digest has always saltued Illiteracy and now has compiled a list of the most illiterate cities in the United States. We're doing much better than our European brethren, since 23 million American adults are functionally illiterate and 13% of all American 17-years-olds are functionally illiterate. http://www.ahalenia.com/id/id11/illiterati.html - http://www.ahalenia.com/id/id11/illiterati.html

Seems I stayed short,.the numbers are even scarier.

Not only 13% of the 17 years old kids are functionally illiterate but also 7.63% of the total USA popuilation is also functionally illiterate, this means THEY CAN'T WRITE OR READ.

If you doubt of just one source:

Neglecting students’ literacy has serious economic consequences for individuals and states. Today, almost 40 percent of high school graduates lack the reading and writing skills that employers seek, and almost a third of high school graduates who enroll in college require remediation. Deficits in basic skills cost the nation’s businesses, universities, and under-prepared high school graduates as much as $16 billion annually in lost productivity and remedial costs.” javascript:windowPopCenter%28footnotes/01-06.html,pop,400,350,yes%29 - ⁶

Only 31 percent of eighth graders and 34 percent of twelfth graders meet the National Assessment of Educational Progress standard of reading “proficiency” for their grade level. (National Assessment of Educational Progress, 2002) http://www.carnegie.org/literacy/why.html - http://www.carnegie.org/literacy/why.html

Again I stayed short:

1.- Almost 40 percent of high school graduates lack the reading and writing skills that employers seek, (They will know how to open a frog but won't be able to get a job)

2.- Almost a third of high school graduates who enroll in college require remediation. (The exact 33.33% I mentioned previously reached university but have to take basic reading....How did they reached College withoiut being proficiebt in reading?.....God knows)

3.- Only 31 percent of eighth graders and 34 percent of twelfth graders meet the National Assessment of Educational Progress standard of reading “proficiency" (Again, I stayed short, less than 1/3 of USA students reach the average skills required for their age)

If still you don't trust in that data, read this:

National Association of State Boards of Education

According to the NGA report, http://www.nga.org/Files/pdf/0510GOVGUIDELITERACY.PDF - Reading to Achieve: A Governor’s Guide to Adolescent Literacy , ”today, almost 40 percent of high school graduates lack the reading and writing skills that employers seek, and almost a third of high school graduates who enroll in college require remediation. Deficits in basic skills cost the nation’s businesses, universities, and underprepared high school graduates as much as $16 billion annually in lost productivity and remedial costs." The report suggests governors pursue five strategies to improve adolescent literacy achievement: http://www.nacctep.org/PolicyBriefs/V2_2005/vol2i9/index.htm - http://www.nacctep.org/PolicyBriefs/V2_2005/vol2i9/index.htm

You want more data?

The second report, http://www.nasbe.org/recent_pubs/adol%20literacy%20exec%20summary.pdf - Reading at Risk: The State Response to the Crisis in Adolescent Literacy , suggests that that approximately 70 percent of adolescents struggle to read.

http://www.nacctep.org/PolicyBriefs/V2_2005/vol2i9/index.htm - http://www.nacctep.org/PolicyBriefs/V2_2005/vol2i9/index.htm

7 out of each 10 adolescents have problems reading...Scary?

But according to other sources is even scarier:

Only one-third of high school students take a high school curriculum that prepares them ... almost 50% of those that do enroll in college need remediation; ...

www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ovae/pafblueprint.doc

5 out of 10 students who reach Coillege require remediation...wow....but they know hoiw to skin a ca, maybe they can get a job as taxidermists.

You want even more:

Of those who enter high school, only about 70 percent will graduate--—one of the lowest rates among industrialized nations (Greene & Winters, 2006). As important, however, is the fact that, of those who do receive a diploma, only half are academically prepared for postsecondary education (Greene & Winters, 2005).

Wonderful only 7 out of 10 students will graduate from High School and only 3.5 are ready for postsecondary Education (This includes not only universities but also technical education), Do you still believe in CIA factbook?

I'm sure you don't care where Bolivia is, except if your country have to bomb them.

But probably you should know where one of the countries that provide USA with more cooper and silver is located, but of course we're only Bananna Republic, so Who cares?

Incredible arrogance as an excuse for ignorance and lack of sensibility, you value a country and human beings in base of the Gross Domestic Product, KKK members would be proud of you (Probnably those who are illiterate and base human life according to race and ethnic origin while they spit water melon seeds)..

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

If we give animals rights, I see no reason to not ban soup and disinfectants. They're killing helpless creatures. Humans are such bullies.

Well, will answer this even when I believe it should be logic. (BTW I guess you're talking about soap, because soup doesn't kill germs in your body unless you want to boil yourself in a kettle with chicken, potatoes and vegetables

but I doubt the FDA will approve this method).

The germs don't have central nervous system so there's no pain, no suffering, no intelligence, but that's secondary.....And I didn't required of disecting germs to learn that, a book was enough, but well, I didn't required remediation.

BTW II: Soup is a great idea for frogs,. they say they taste like chicken and at least then we will have a purpose for killing them.

Germs are plagues dangerous for human life, if you have to choose between ANY animal and a human being you have always to choose the human being, that's kindergarten logic, it's more evident in the case of a plague or a germ.

You have to kill locusts to save the harvest, because human life and basic needs are first, but it's required a litlle bit of logic to get it.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

And why did this thread turn into a let's bash how stupid US citizens are thread?

I clearly said: If this happens in USA, I can't imagine what happens in the third world (From which I'm part), but seems you didn't read my previous posts because I'm sure you don't need remediation.

Iván

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 12:23

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

In first place, I'm not comparing humans with animals, I'm just pointing that human values evolve with time, there are ONG's and Governments (Including USA) investing billions in preserving species,m do you want Frogs to be almost exttinnct and flies invading your homes (Frogs eat flies, just in case you didn't knew) to invest millions in preserving the ecological chain?

There's a very large difference between not wanting frogs to go extinct, and giving them rights. Dissections won't decimate the frog population, we could raise all the frogs we use in dissections.

BTW; The vegetarian issue is absolutely ridiculous, I'm talking about KILLING WITHOUT PURPOSE, feeding is a valid purpose, the consequences of creating a 100% vegetarian society would be catastrophic as one of the Baldies pointed very clearly on another thread.

There's is a purpose though. THey're a valuable learning tool, and I know that you know the importance of education having taken such extensive schooling yourself.

Seems you have troubles if you believe CIA, they were the ones who talked about the Weapoms of Massive Destruction.

Yes I trust the second best intelligence agency in the world. The whole world was fooled on the WMDs. That doesn't rule CIA statistical data wrong.

My numbers as usual are supported

Seems I stayed short,.

Not only 13% of the 17 years old kids are functionally illiterate but also 7.63% of the total USA popuilation is also functionally illiterate, this means THEY CAN'T WRITE OR READ.

If you doubt of just one source:

Again I stayed short:

1.- Almost 40 percent of high school graduates lack the reading and writing skills that employers seek, (They will know how to open a frog but won't be able to get a job)

If still you don't trust in that data, read this:

National Association of State Boards of Education

According to the NGA report, http://www.nga.org/Files/pdf/0510GOVGUIDELITERACY.PDF - http://www.nacctep.org/PolicyBriefs/V2_2005/vol2i9/index.htm - http://www.nacctep.org/PolicyBriefs/V2_2005/vol2i9/index.htm

You want more data?

The second report, http://www.nasbe.org/recent_pubs/adol%20literacy%20exec%20summary.pdf -

Only one-third of high school students take a high school curriculum that prepares them ... almost 50% of those that do enroll in college need remediation; ...

www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ovae/pafblueprint.doc

5 out of 10 students who reach Coillege require remediation...woow....butthey know hoiw to skin a cat.

You want even more:

[quote]Of those who enter high school, only about 70 percent will graduate--—one of the lowest rates among industrialized nations (Greene & Winters, 2006). As important, however, is the fact that, of those who do receive a diploma, only half are academically prepared for postsecondary education (Greene & Winters, 2005).

Wonderful only 7 out of 10 students will graduate from High School and only 3.5 are ready for Superior Education, Do you still believe in CIA factbook?

I'm sure you don't care where Bolivia is, except if you have to bomb it.

But probably you should know where one of the countries that provide USA with more cooper and silver is located, but of course we're only Bananna Republic, so Who cares?

Wonderful arrogance as an excuse for ignorance.

Still not a reason the average Joe should know where it is over anatomy in my opinion.

Last but not least, your 4 fellow students who probably got a big red F are not statistically significant, even if they refused, the subject is mandatory, so it's correct to say that all students except those with moral principles who probably failled, have dissected some animal with no purpose.

Only one of those sources speaks of the actually literacy rate. I'm not doubting your numbers on the poor english abilities of people. But I trust the CIA over some special interest group. Again, the only number I doubted was the actual literacy rate. And the Bolivia numbers.

Also, again these two subjects are seperate so there's room for improvement in english with the dissection. They won't impede on each other territory on a education possibilities curve.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

If we give animals rights, I see no reason to not ban soup and disinfectants. They're killing helpless creatures. Humans are such bullies.

).

:) Damn that soup haha. Yes soap.

The germs don't have central nervous system so there's no pain, no suffering, no intelligence, but that's secondary.....Hey, I didn't required of disecting germs to learn that, a book was enough, but hey, I didn't required remediation.

BTW II: Soup is a great idea for frogs,. they say they taste like chicken and at least then we will have a purpose killing them.

If you have to kill locusts to save the harvest, you will have to do it, because human life is first, but it's required a litlle bit of logic to get it.

I agree, I was just saying that if frogs get rights when not hurting humans, why not give germs the same rights. The arguement was purposefully ridiculous.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

And why did this thread turn into a let's bash how stupid US citizens are thread?

I appologize Ivan, I missed that in your last post, but I did read it. I tend to skim closing as theyre usually just wrap ups or unrelated to posts, I guessed I missed it in skimming.

Iván

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 13:19

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

There's is a purpose though. THey're a valuable learning tool, and I know that you know the importance of education having taken such extensive schooling yourself.

Only less than 1 per 1000 of the total number of High School USA students will evergraduate as Vets every year, they will have the chanve to dissect animals when they are in the universirty, why in hell does Lawyers, Doctors (That aren't going to be surgeons), engeneers, Computer experts, car mnechanics, white collar employees, etc need to know how a Frog lloks inside?

Accept it, even the vets won't learn a thing from the butchery they made in school because no teacher has the capacity to reach them surgical texchniques, they will have to learn everything in the university.

Yes I trust the second best intelligence agency in the world. The whole world was fooled on the WMDs. That doesn't rule CIA statistical data wrong.

Well, I don't blame the CIA

December 18, 2006

Powell Again Blames CIA For Fabrications And Lies-By-Omission In U.N. Speech

So far Powell has blamed everything on the CIA. He did it again yesterday when questioned outside Face the Nation by Sam Husseini of the http://www.accuracy.org/ - Institute for Public Accuracy . Here are the details, along with background and the actual video.

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/001238.html - http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/001238.html

Collin Powell and I believe President Bush blamed them.

In the meanwhile, North Korea is using real WMD in the border and nobody noticed until it is too late.

I don't doubt CIA has valuable data, but they give the USA citizen what they want to hear, "Americans are the best in every field", something that is not truth in many areas, Japan is wealthier and more advanced technologically for example, the Euro has more value than the dollar, Europe Education system is better.

That's something most agencies won't publicly accept. And that's a mistake USA has the resources to change this situation and grow in every aspect, but as long as officially you don't accept the reality, things won't change.

Still not a reason the average Joe should know where it is over anatomy in my opinion.

I believe reading is more important, all the sources are reliable and from government agencies, not invented, the numbers provided by each and every one are consistent..

Anatomy for school students can be learned in books, you won't use corpses with eight graders because it's useless and will create more traumas than benefits, I believe the case is exact in animals.

Only one of those sources speaks of the actually literacy rate. I'm not doubting your numbers on the poor english abilities of people. But I trust the CIA over some special interest group. Again, the only number I doubted was the actual literacy rate. And the Bolivia numbers.

The numbers of illiteracy are not only provided by reliable offices and the UN wiith no interest, but also by the Colleges who are the ones in charge of providing remediation, so they know the numbers exactly.

You can check in Google hundreeds of sources (Including UN) and all are consistent, even the major universities have referred to this problem and I dont believe they have political interests (Hey, they charge the student parents for the remedies and that's more bucks for them).

How in hell can a student with reading under the average reach College???? Believe me, this is a mad issue.

Also, again these two subjects are seperate so there's room for improvement in english with the dissection. They won't impede on each other territory on a education possibilities curve.

Of course not, but which one is necessary and which one not?

How many USA citizens will need to read?.............100%

How many students will need to know how to dissect?....Less than 1 per 1,000, and they won't learn anyting in school, all the valuable information will be providedin the university.

:) Damn that soup haha. Yes soap.

I guessed so LOL.

I agree, I was just saying that if frogs get rights when not hurting humans, why not give germs the same rights. The arguement was purposefully ridiculous.

I'm not talking about frog rights specifically, I'm talking about the useless massacre of animals for no valid purpose except a curriculum that has to be changed, it's clear that USA education system is collapsong when only 3 out of 10 students have enough reading and writting skills foior their age, something is going wrong.

I appologize Ivan, I missed that in your last post, but I did read it. I tend to skim closing as theyre usually just wrap ups or unrelated to posts, I guessed I missed it in skimming.

Don't worry but please don't believe I'm anti-USA, by the contrary, read my posts on other threads, I believe the whole world has it's priorities upside down.

Iván

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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 13:35

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

[ I personally don't care where Bolivia is (although I know) and I think a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy is far more important than knowing where Bolivia is. Hands on experience with an important scientific foundation vs. knowing where to put an inconsequential country with an GDP of 8 billion on a map. I think the dissection wins.

That remark about Bolivia was unnecessarily offensive. If this is what some Americans think about other parts of the world, then don't be surprised if people from other places aren't that keen on you. If someone from Bolivia chanced to read that, they would have all the right in the world to complain. Ivan clearly used Bolivia as an example of a country people know little about (and not only in the US, I hasten to add... Ignorance is rife even in many European countries). However, putting down a country just because it has a small GDP is something to be avoided, especially in a public forum of international bent as this one.

Posted By: Figglesnout
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 16:13

soon in my anatomy class we have to dissect pig or we fail...

I'm not sure how i feel about that.

But I mean...I'll have to do it, or fail the course. It sucks. I know I'm not going to be a vet...I'm just interested in HUMAN Anatomy...which is what teh course is labled (further making me wonder why we have to dissect a pig...)

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I'm a reasonable man, get off my case

Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 21:22

bhikkhu wrote:

rileydog22 wrote:

bhikkhu wrote:

In Medical schools they don't kill people for research. They use the cadavers of people who have already died. Why can't they do the same with animals?

Because they are killed before they have died naturally and used for food.

That's a whole other issue.

I'm not intending that as an anti-carnivirous comment (I eat more meat than most people). I was just answering your question. There's more money in killing a pig for feed than just letting it die and selling it for dissection, and that's not even including paying to support (food, water, shelter, etc.) the pig until it has died naturally.

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 21:29

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

There's is a purpose though. THey're a valuable learning tool, and I know that you know the importance of education having taken such extensive schooling yourself.

Well, I don't blame the CIA

December 18, 2006

Powell Again Blames CIA For Fabrications And Lies-By-Omission In U.N. Speech

As much criticism as Colin Powell has received for his Iraq presentation at the UN, it hasn't been anywhere near what he deserves. While they've been little noticed, declassified memos from Powell's own intelligence staff at the State Department conclusively prove Powell was aware much of what he said was false or shaky. (I've previously gone through this in detail http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/000640.html - So far Powell has blamed everything on the CIA. He did it again yesterday when questioned outside Face the Nation by Sam Husseini of the http://www.accuracy.org/ - http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/001238.html - http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/001238.html

Collin Powell and I believe President Bush blamed them.

Again, that doesn't prove all their statistical data wrong. Also, I could care less what Collin Powell has to say. I really doubt the man's credentials.

In the meanwhile, North Korea is using real WMD in the border and nobody noticed until it is too late.

That's something most agencies won't publicly accept. And that's a mistake USA has the resources to change this situation and grow in every aspect, but as long as officially you don't accept the reality, things won't change.

SO the CIA distorts data to make the literacy rate appear higher, because it will make people feel better about their country, rather than taking the simple steps to combat it which will also make people feel better about their country? I don't buy into conspiracy theories like this.

Still not a reason the average Joe should know where it is over anatomy in my opinion.

I believe reading is more important, all the sources are reliable and from government agencies, not invented, the numbers provided by each and every one are consistent..

It can be, but tell the average student to study a diagram and watch him not do it. Give him a frog to dissect and I garuntee he does it and takes something away. Hands one xperiance beats hand outs or books. We're not using coarpses, we're using frogs. Not much trauma associated with seeing a dead frog/worm/starfish.

Only one of those sources speaks of the actually literacy rate. I'm not doubting your numbers on the poor english abilities of people. But I trust the CIA over some special interest group. Again, the only number I doubted was the actual literacy rate. And the Bolivia numbers.

How in hell can a student with reading under the average reach College???? Believe me, this is a mad issue.

Strength in the sciences can easily carry you. If you can compute triple integrals, but don't know what jejun means, you'll get by fine.

Also, again these two subjects are seperate so there's room for improvement in english with the dissection. They won't impede on each other territory on a education possibilities curve.

Of course not, but which one is necessary and which one not?

How many USA citizens will need to read?.............100%

How many students will need to know how to dissect?....Less than 1 per 1,000, and they won't learn anyting in school, all the valuable information will be providedin the university.

So no knowledge should be taught if it will be expounded upon in college? Also, what about those not going into college?

:) Damn that soup haha. Yes soap.

I guessed so LOL.

I agree, I was just saying that if frogs get rights when not hurting humans, why not give germs the same rights. The arguement was purposefully ridiculous.

Not only dissection, think how many students will ever need advanced mathematics or chemnistry? This should be elective only for those students really interested, wouldn't it be better to teach Spanish that is the fastest growing language in USA?

Absolutely not. You seem to have a bias towards language skills. Not to get into another issue, but Spanish is not something any American needs to know. Learning another language is a luxury, knowing mathematics and other sciences are a necessity.

Iván

Fight the good fight then sir

-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 21:32

Ghost Rider wrote:

I'm not insulting Bolivia or any of the good people I'm sure the country is full of. I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of international politics, Bolivia plays a very minor role and knowing where it's located is not necessarily of the utmost importance. I don't insult any countries, besides France Wink

-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 22:16

king volta wrote:

soon in my anatomy class we have to dissect pig or we fail...

I'm not sure how i feel about that.

But I mean...I'll have to do it, or fail the course. It sucks. I know I'm not going to be a vet...I'm just interested in HUMAN Anatomy...which is what teh course is labled (further making me wonder why we have to dissect a pig...)

I'm sure if you presented a mature, well thought out case, they would have to abide by your feelings. I couldn't do it because of my Buddhist beliefs, but I don't think you should need such an affiliation to back it up. If you honestly believe it is wrong, you shouldn't have to do it.

-------------
a.k.a. H.T.

http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com

Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 22:19

You can't learn a complex system like the human body without understanding a lower, more simplistic system.

I do want to say that kids shouldn't be forced to dissect animals. My school offered an alternative, an interactive program for dissection. I fully support this, but I don't think dissection should be outlawed in anyway.

-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 22:22

because people are pigs Tongue

seriously though if it conflicts with your beliefs then there's no way that they can force you to do it or fail

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Posted By: Figglesnout
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 22:25

heyitsthatguy wrote:

because people are pigs Tongue

seriously though if it conflicts with your beliefs then there's no way that they can force you to do it or fail

you'd think...i learned today and objected.

but my anatomy teacher said it's part of the ciriculum (?) and must be done to pass.

quite stupid...and i'm not sure if it's legal. but whatever.

i mean the pig's there and there's nothing i can do about it. perhaps i'll learn something

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I'm a reasonable man, get off my case

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 00:17

king volta wrote:

you'd think...i learned today and objected.

but my anatomy teacher said it's part of the ciriculum (?) and must be done to pass.

quite stupid...and i'm not sure if it's legal. but whatever.

i mean the pig's there and there's nothing i can do about it. perhaps i'll learn something

YES YOU CAN, CLAIM TO BE A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR, it's proyected by law:

What legal protection do students have regarding dissection?
Students from K-12 have the legal right to refuse to dissect a once-living animal. Today student choice laws exist in California, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Virginia. Louisiana, Maine and Maryland offer informal policies, while similar legislation is pending in Massachusetts and Michigan. Individual students have inspired the development of these students' rights laws through their own actions. Students need to realize that they play a significant role in their education. And their choices can make a significant difference for animals.

These laws typically require the school to notify students and/or their parents at the beginning of the course. They allow the student to choose a humane alternative and the laws require that students who choose to opt out of dissection not be penalized for doing so.

In many cases students living in states that don't have protective policies have been successful in encouraging their teachers to allow them to use alternatives to dissection. Sometimes students have even succeeded in banning dissection at their schools because of their efforts.

Do any other countries have laws regarding dissection?
Animal dissection was banned from schools in Argentina in 1987 and in Slovakia in 1994. In 1993, a law took effect in Italy that recognizes the right of conscientious objectors to refuse to participate in animal's experimentation. In 1997, the Indian government announced that animal dissection would be made optional for school students in the country, and the decision was recently implemented. Additionally, in 2001 the Central Board of Secondary Education in India banned the dissection of mice, rats, and frogs from the curriculum. In December 1999, the Israeli Minister of Education, Yossi Sarid, announced an immediate ban on dissection and live-animal experimentation in the country's schools.

http://animalearn.org/faqs.php - http://animalearn.org/faqs.php

Desíte they have an agenda, Peta gives valuable guidelines to follow:

What do dissections teach? Not much … except that it’s OK to chop up animals. In California, investigators brought up the possible connection between a series of cat mutilations and the cat dissections at the local high school. That wouldn’t surprise us: In his last interview before his death, Jeffrey Dahmer said that he became fascinated with blood and guts when his school gave him a knife and a dead animal to cut apart in biology class.

If you’re in grades K-12 and attend public school in the following states, just say “no”: California, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Virginia. These states, as well as school districts in Austin, Texas, and Columbus, Ohio, have dissection choice laws or policies in place. Private schools, colleges, and universities are not covered by those laws, but you can still get an alternative. You’ve just got to ask for it the right way (see number 2 below).

For Canadian students, your right to refuse to dissect is protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Currently, Nova Scotia's South Shore and Vancouver, British Columbia, are the only locations in Canada that have passed student choice policies, though presently, school boards in Kelowna and Westbank, British Columbia, and Toronto are being encouraged to pass student choice policies as well. Please visit http://www.frogsarecool.com/ - FrogsAreCool.com for more information including details of the policies currently in place.

1. Find out as early as possible—preferably a few months before the course—what they say you have to do. Investigate: Find out what animals the school uses and who supplies them. You’ll be so angry that you’ll most likely not only exercise your right to refuse to dissect, but also demand that the class stop using animals entirely!

2. Meet with the instructor right away and tell him or her that you cannot participate in the dissection because of your "sincerely held religious and moral beliefs about the sanctity of all life," and ask for a non-animal alternative. These words provide the basis for a possible legal case. (You do not have to support any formal religion; the courts have interpreted a belief that animals should not be killed for classroom dissection to be a religious belief, which schools cannot violate.) Do not offer a detailed explanation, and don’t get into an argument or try to defend your beliefs—you don’t have to. State your position in writing, be calm and polite, and ask for a prompt response. Make it clear that observing other students dissect an animal isn’t an acceptable alternative—it’s indirect participation in the dissection. Keep copies of all correspondence and detailed notes of conversations; take notes during any meetings.

3. Dissection has got to go. It was first introduced into schools in the early part of the last century, and there are now way more advanced ways to learn. Offer to research the alternatives and find those that satisfy the objectives of the course. Show that you’re willing to spend an equivalent amount of time and effort learning the lesson using a humane alternative. A number of organizations loan alternatives, including CD-ROM’s and virtual dissections, to students and schools. The following organizations have extensive lending libraries and will be glad to help you find a suitable alternative and provide you with additional information and suggestions:

http://www.hsus.org/ace/352 - The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)
301-258-3046

http://www.navs.org/ - National Anti-Vivisection Society (NAVS)
800-888-6287

http://www.aavs.org/intro.html - American Anti-Vivisection Society (AAVS)
800-729-2287

http://www.neavs.org/ - Ethical Science Education Coalition (ESEC) (The educational branch of the New England Anti-Vivisection Society)
617-523-6020

http://www.avar.org/ - "Alternatives in Education Database" (Allows keyword searches to identify a wide variety of alternatives)

http://www.pcrm.org/issues/Ethics_in_Medical_Research/ethics_medical.html - Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (Factsheets)

http://www.hsus.org/ace/14240 - Animals in Higher Education:
Problems, Alternatives and Recommendations
by Jonathan Balcombe, Ph.D. (An in-depth overview of the entire issue)

4. If you’re still told, "Dissect or fail," proceed up the chain of command. If you’re in pre-college (kindergarten through 12th grade) write to the principal, then the superintendent, and the school board. Ask your parents or guardians to write on your behalf. If you’re in college, write to the department head, then to the dean, and finally to the president.

5. If school officials still think they can violate your rights, try contacting an attorney for assistance. These cases don’t always need to go to court; they can often be settled with just a simple phone call from an attorney. To find an attorney in your area, try doing an online search using one of the services listed below. You can also try calling the service’s toll-free number, but conducting an online search may be more effective:

http://www.abanet.org/legalservices/findlegalhelp/lawrefdirectory.html - American Bar Association Lawyer Referral Service
541 N. Fairbanks Ct.
Chicago, IL 60611
1-800-285-2221

http://www.lawyers.com/ - Lawyers.com*
1-800-526-4902, ext. 5095
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]
*Note: This Internet referral service is owned and operated by Martindale-Hubbell. Even though “animal law” is not one of the choices listed, you can type “animal” in the “Legal Term” field to find attorneys who specialize in animal law.
http://www.petakids.com/disindex.html - http://www.petakids.com/disindex.html

Hope it helps

Iván

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 12:01

You know, I made a long post about your opinions of countries like Bolivia and I'm sure as Perú, plus your statement that learning the language that almost one third of your country speaks is a "luxury", but is useless Equality, you will never get it., so I better delete it.

Iván

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 14:50

I'd say gladly post it, but perhaps in a different thread as to not drag this off topic? I'll gladly discuss my justification for saying that learning spanish is a luxury. And clear up any negative opinions you think I have towards other countries. I'd be more than happy to have the discussion, even over AIM or via PM if you find them to be me appropriate means.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 19:53

Ivan, one thing that law said was that the student could object to dissecting a ONCE LIVING animal. Having students dissect a fetal pig could circumvent the law, depending on one definition of what is and what isn't alive.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 22:16

rileydog22 wrote:

Ivan, one thing that law said was that the student could object to dissecting a ONCE LIVING animal. Having students dissect a fetal pig could circumvent the law, depending on one definition of what is and what isn't alive.

The law doesn't require to justify your believes, I think a Jewish could easily reject to dissect a Pig because he isn't allowed to touch a repulsive animal, so there's your precendent.

A pro life person could easily say that that fetal pig's life was interrupted with no purpose.

There's always an argument.

Iván

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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: March 01 2007 at 18:37

I felt I had to state my opinion on the "Bolivia vs. Frogs" thing:

Seriously, is learning how the inside of a frog looks more important than knowing the world one lives in?

Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2007 at 20:07

^Filling Bolivia into an empty space on a map, and knowing the world one lives in are hardly the samething. Anatomy would be part of knowing the world one lives in.

And yet again, geography and biology aren't held in the same period. Teaching one in no way impedes the other. I'm for kids knowing both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 01 2007 at 22:55

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^Filling Bolivia into an empty space on a map, and knowing the world one lives in are hardly the samething. Anatomy would be part of knowing the world one lives in.

So...Isn't Bolivia part of the world we all live in?

And yet again, geography and biology aren't held in the same period. Teaching one in no way impedes the other.

No, that's a budget problem, kids learn how to dissect a frog, cat or Pig but die of heart attack at the age of 12 because the schools can't afford paying a PE teacher but can afford paying teachers to show how to butcher animals.

I'm for kids knowing both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like.

Honestly.....I don't believe you, you were clear enough:

I personally don't care where Bolivia is (although I know) and I think a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy is far more important than knowing where Bolivia is. Hands on experience with an important scientific foundation vs. knowing where to put an inconsequential country with an GDP of 8 billion on a map. I think the dissection wins.

At least be consequential.

Iván

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 01 2007 at 23:09

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^Filling Bolivia into an empty space on a map, and knowing the world one lives in are hardly the samething. Anatomy would be part of knowing the world one lives in.

So...Isn't Bolivia part of the world we all live in?

Never said that, I'm simply saying that "knowing the world one lives in" entails more than just knowing where Bolivia is, it would also entail anatomy.

And yet again, geography and biology aren't held in the same period. Teaching one in no way impedes the other.

Making a kid play volleyball for 50 mins a day won't stop him from being obesse. Schools teach kids, parents worry about them staying in shape.

I'm for kids knowing both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like.

Honestly.....I don't believe you, you were clear enough:

Two things to note here. One is humor, I'm obviously exagerrating for effect. Secondly, note the personally. I believe kids should be taught where Bolivia is. However, if for some odd reason forced to chose between the two, I've already said where my priority lies.

At least be consequential.

Iván

EDIT: I really think my Bolivia comment is being misunderstood. I don't carry some any non-European country is insignificant mentality which it seems is how people are interpretting what I said.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "