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Trky_Lym 
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 07 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 88
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 Topic: When Prog Bands "Lose It"
Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:07 |
I've noticed with a lot of progressive bands that early on in their career they are so great, creating classic albums, then as time goes by they end up... sucking. So my question is what bands/artists, and when, start to "lose it"?
Here is my list:
Tangerine Dream after Hyperborea
Amon Düül II after Vive la Trance
Can after Flow Motion
Brian Eno after Apollo: Atmospheres & Soundtracks
Faust after Faust IV
King Crimson after Red
Kraftwerk after Computer World (although I do own Electric Cafe. It's an okay album to listen to once in a while.)
Pink Floyd after The Wall (although I do Like Division Bell.)
And for non-prog:
The B-52's after Wild Planet
New Order after Republic
David Bowie after Lets Dance (yes I like Lets Dance  !) Prince after Sign 'O' The Times
The Cure after Wish (but they are still my favorite band, and I will own all of their albums. Maybe their new album in 2007 will be a classic, you never know *shrugs*.)
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 2703
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:12 |
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Yes, but some of them returmn to form, as KC did with Thrak.
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carefulwiththataxe
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walrus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 286
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:16 |
YES after 'the yes album'
GENESIS after 'foxtrot'
LED ZEPPELIN after 'IV'
BEATLES after 'Let it be'
FRANK ZAPPA after 'the mothers'
PINK FLOYD after 'syd barret'
KING CRIMSON after 'giles, giles and fripp'
DREAM THEATER just before their debut
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you and whose army?
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Angplags
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 25 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 51
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:19 |
 walrus wrote:
YES after 'the yes album'
GENESIS after 'foxtrot'
LED ZEPPELIN after 'IV'
BEATLES after 'Let it be'
FRANK ZAPPA after 'the mothers'
PINK FLOYD after 'syd barret'
KING CRIMSON after 'giles, giles and fripp'
DREAM THEATER just before their debut
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Blasphemy! X
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 2703
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:23 |
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Rush lost it completely after Grace Under Pressure.
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carefulwiththataxe
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elpprogster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 02 2005
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 463
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 19:06 |
Yes after the Yes album? 
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elpprogster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 02 2005
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 463
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 19:07 |
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 19:24 |
Genesis: from And Then There Were Three they added the pop element
Pink Floyd: after The Wall the chemistry was gone and when Roger left the trio wrote
too many predictable songs
Tangerine Dream: in the Eighties the band gradually turned into a electronic rock-pop
orchestra
Rush: from Presto the magic was gone
Barclay James Harvest: from Turn Of The Tide the music became a bit too polished
and predictable
Yes: after Going For The One the spirit was gone
Rick Wakeman: his last interesting album was 1984
Santana: Caravanserai was his last captivating album
Led Zeppelin: IV was the last 'no fillers all killers' album
Marillion: after Fugazi the band went downwards because Fish became too dominant
Edited by erik neuteboom - November 25 2006 at 19:25
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Angplags
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 25 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 51
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 19:33 |
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I agree with most of this, but I have to disagree with Led Zeppelin IV being the last great album.
Physical Graffiti, Presence and In Through The Out Door are all amazing albums, where they explored different styles. I found Led Zeppelin I to actually be their weakest album, as they were finding their feet, I suppose, and it was all very similar.
In Through The Out Door is even, dare I say it, quite prog-y. It takes a couple of listens to really "get it", but it is great, and I would choose the three albums I listed above over I, III and IV.
And walrus - what about The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway? Genesis should have been renamed Exodus when Gabriel left.
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penguindf12
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 20 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 831
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 20:48 |
I believe the general rule and limit for all bands is either roughly 10 years of great albums OR 8 to 10 studio albums of greatness (including beginning efforts). Thus:
Genesis: up to "Wind and Wuthering" (8 albums) OR up to "Duke" (10 albums)
Yes: up to "Going for the One" (8 albums) OR up to "Drama" (10 albums)
Gentle Giant: up to "Interview" (8) OR up to "Giant for a Day" (10)
Van der Graaf Generator: doesn't really qualify because of huge hiatus in the mid-seventies; however, if the three Peter Hammill solo albums during this hiatus are counted, then up to "Godbluff" (8) OR up to "World Record" (10)
King Crimson: up to "Discipline" (8) OR up to "Three of a Perfect Pair" (10)
The Residents: counting their two formally unreleased albums ("Baby Sex" and "The Warner Bros Album"), up to "Duck Stab" (8) OR up to "Mark of the Mole" (10)
Jethro Tull: up to "Minstrel in the Gallery" (8) OR up to "Songs from the Wood" (10)
Pink Floyd: disregarding "Obscured by Clouds" or "More" (take yer pick), up to "Wish You Were Here" OR up to "The Wall"
By these definitions, I believe that bands usually have about 8 albums allotted to them - then 2 of decline - then the rest is usually pointless. Only Captain Beefheart and Frank Zappa don't fit into these outlines well - Beefheart recorded four GREAT albums, then 2 okay ones, then 3 of crap, then 1 okay one, 1 great one, and 1 okay one (in that order). Zappa, however, cranked out so many albums I simply hesitate to examine any patterns in his quality (given I haven't listened to any past "The Grand Wazoo").
Try this mehod yourself on other bands; it usually holds true - and if it doesn't, then there's usually an explaination.
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clairvoyant
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Joined: February 26 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 68
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 20:52 |
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I think some people may be misinterpeting the "lose it" term.
Genesis never "lost it". They just changed their style. Say they would have continued to make prog albums, but they just ended up sucking, that would be losing it.
With that being said, Yes sorta lost it. Going For The One was a solid album, but Tormato and Drama were clearly prog attempts with some new styles mixed in but they just didn't quite turn out right. I still wouldn't say they "lost it" though.
And about Zeppelin, now way in hell is IV their last great album.
Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti are absolutely AMAZING albums and I personally enjoy Presence quite a lot.
Edited by clairvoyant - November 25 2006 at 20:53
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Angplags
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 25 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 51
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 20:59 |
clairvoyant - I 100% agree with you on Zeppelin. However... Genesis did change style, and at the same time totally sucked. They sucked all the way to "Calling All Stations" when the suckiness got so bad it enveloped itself and became it's own entity, a monster kept in Phil Collins' cellar. True. Honest. 
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peter_gabriel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 22 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 354
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Posted: November 25 2006 at 22:36 |
walrus, that was pathetic 
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Angeldust
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 18 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 336
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Posted: November 26 2006 at 03:04 |
I only wished to make a comment about new order.Republic is a great album but i really liked Get ready and their latest effort..
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: November 26 2006 at 03:05 |
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I would say Tangerine Dream after Poland, if they actually got mentioned here.
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prog4evr
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 22 2005
Location: Wuhan, China
Status: Offline
Points: 1455
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Posted: November 26 2006 at 04:16 |
erik neuteboom wrote:
Genesis: from And Then There Were Three they added the pop element
Pink Floyd: after The Wall the chemistry was gone...
Yes: after Going For The One the spirit was gone...
Marillion: after Fugazi the band went downwards because Fish became too dominant |
Agreed on Genesis, PF and Yes. But I disagree on Marillion: Childhood's End and Clutching at Straws captured Fish-era Marillion at its finest....
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Abstrakt
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Joined: August 18 2005
Location: Soundgarden
Status: Offline
Points: 18292
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Posted: November 26 2006 at 04:21 |
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Frank Zappa after "Them Or Us"
Iron Maiden after "Fear Of The Dark", they became interesting again with "Brave New World"
Led Zeppelin After "Presence"
Genesis after "Duke". They were still an O.K band, thought
Deep Purple after "Burn". Their 80's and 90's albums are still quite good.
Edited by Abstrakt - November 26 2006 at 04:21
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29298
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Posted: November 26 2006 at 05:52 |
Ricochet wrote:
I would say Tangerine Dream after Poland, if they actually got mentioned here. |
I partially agree as Poland (1984) is one of the best live albums I've ever come across.However I really like Underwater Sunlight (1986) and even Tyger (1987) has some good moments.I believe TD started to go noticeably downhill after 1987.
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smithers
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 30 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 223
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Posted: November 26 2006 at 06:15 |
deep purple-after come taste the band
yes-after 90125
black sabbath-after mob rules
genesis-after duke
tull-during Under wraps and Rock island albums only
caravan-after waterloo lily
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zedkatz
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Joined: September 20 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 58
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Posted: November 26 2006 at 06:30 |
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Can only judge on when I stopped listening to the following acts, or in some case where I continued to buy their albums desperately hoping they'd regain form.
Prog:
Genesis- after Wind and Wuthering
Yes- After (and including bits of) Topographic Oceans
Tull- After Heavy Horses
Non-Prog:
REM- After Automatic for the People
Desperately Hoping:
PFM- Stopped buying their studio stuff after Jet Lag (and jusging by PA reviews this seems to have bee wise) but recently got some of their later live albums, got Dracula (mmmm) and got the new one on order. Fingers crossed!
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When Prog Bands "Lose It"
