When Prog Bands "Lose It"
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31513
Printed Date: February 13 2025 at 12:44
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Topic: When Prog Bands "Lose It"
Posted By: Trky_Lym
Subject: When Prog Bands "Lose It"
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:07
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I've noticed with a lot of progressive bands that early on in their career they are so great, creating classic albums, then as time goes by they end up... sucking. So my question is what bands/artists, and when, start to "lose it"?
Here is my list:
Tangerine Dream after Hyperborea
Amon Düül II after Vive la Trance
Can after Flow Motion
Brian Eno after Apollo: Atmospheres & Soundtracks
Faust after Faust IV
King Crimson after Red
Kraftwerk after Computer World (although I do own Electric Cafe. It's an okay album to listen to once in a while.)
Pink Floyd after The Wall (although I do Like Division Bell.)
And for non-prog:
The B-52's after Wild Planet
New Order after Republic
David Bowie after Lets Dance (yes I like Lets Dance
 !)Prince after Sign 'O' The Times
The Cure after Wish (but they are still my favorite band, and I will own all of their albums. Maybe their new album in 2007 will be a classic, you never know *shrugs*.) -------------  |
Replies:
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:12
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Yes, but some of them returmn to form, as KC did with Thrak. ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: walrus
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:16
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YES after 'the yes album'
GENESIS after 'foxtrot'
LED ZEPPELIN after 'IV' BEATLES after 'Let it be'
FRANK ZAPPA after 'the mothers'
PINK FLOYD after 'syd barret'
KING CRIMSON after 'giles, giles and fripp'
DREAM THEATER just before their debut  ------------- you and whose army? |
Posted By: Angplags
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:19
Blasphemy! X |
walrus wrote:Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 18:23
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Rush lost it completely after Grace Under Pressure. ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: elpprogster
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 19:06
Yes after the Yes album? 
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Posted By: elpprogster
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 19:07
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 19:24
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Genesis: from And Then There Were Three they added the pop element
Pink Floyd: after The Wall the chemistry was gone and when Roger left the trio wrote
too many predictable songs
Tangerine Dream: in the Eighties the band gradually turned into a electronic rock-pop
orchestra
Rush: from Presto the magic was gone
Barclay James Harvest: from Turn Of The Tide the music became a bit too polished
and predictable
Yes: after Going For The One the spirit was gone
Rick Wakeman: his last interesting album was 1984
Santana: Caravanserai was his last captivating album
Led Zeppelin: IV was the last 'no fillers all killers' album
Marillion: after Fugazi the band went downwards because Fish became too dominant
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Posted By: Angplags
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 19:33
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I agree with most of this, but I have to disagree with Led Zeppelin IV being the last great album. Physical Graffiti, Presence and In Through The Out Door are all amazing albums, where they explored different styles. I found Led Zeppelin I to actually be their weakest album, as they were finding their feet, I suppose, and it was all very similar. In Through The Out Door is even, dare I say it, quite prog-y. It takes a couple of listens to really "get it", but it is great, and I would choose the three albums I listed above over I, III and IV. And walrus - what about The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway? Genesis should have been renamed Exodus when Gabriel left. |
Posted By: penguindf12
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 20:48
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I believe the general rule and limit for all bands is either roughly 10 years of great albums OR 8 to 10 studio albums of greatness (including beginning efforts). Thus:
Genesis: up to "Wind and Wuthering" (8 albums) OR up to "Duke" (10 albums)
Yes: up to "Going for the One" (8 albums) OR up to "Drama" (10 albums)
Gentle Giant: up to "Interview" (8) OR up to "Giant for a Day" (10)
Van der Graaf Generator: doesn't really qualify because of huge hiatus in the mid-seventies; however, if the three Peter Hammill solo albums during this hiatus are counted, then up to "Godbluff" (8) OR up to "World Record" (10)
King Crimson: up to "Discipline" (8) OR up to "Three of a Perfect Pair" (10)
The Residents: counting their two formally unreleased albums ("Baby Sex" and "The Warner Bros Album"), up to "Duck Stab" (8) OR up to "Mark of the Mole" (10)
Jethro Tull: up to "Minstrel in the Gallery" (8) OR up to "Songs from the Wood" (10)
Pink Floyd: disregarding "Obscured by Clouds" or "More" (take yer pick), up to "Wish You Were Here" OR up to "The Wall"
By these definitions, I believe that bands usually have about 8 albums allotted to them - then 2 of decline - then the rest is usually pointless. Only Captain Beefheart and Frank Zappa don't fit into these outlines well - Beefheart recorded four GREAT albums, then 2 okay ones, then 3 of crap, then 1 okay one, 1 great one, and 1 okay one (in that order). Zappa, however, cranked out so many albums I simply hesitate to examine any patterns in his quality (given I haven't listened to any past "The Grand Wazoo").
Try this mehod yourself on other bands; it usually holds true - and if it doesn't, then there's usually an explaination.
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Posted By: clairvoyant
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 20:52
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I think some people may be misinterpeting the "lose it" term. Genesis never "lost it". They just changed their style. Say they would have continued to make prog albums, but they just ended up sucking, that would be losing it. With that being said, Yes sorta lost it. Going For The One was a solid album, but Tormato and Drama were clearly prog attempts with some new styles mixed in but they just didn't quite turn out right. I still wouldn't say they "lost it" though. And about Zeppelin, now way in hell is IV their last great album. Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti are absolutely AMAZING albums and I personally enjoy Presence quite a lot. |
Posted By: Angplags
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 20:59
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clairvoyant - I 100% agree with you on Zeppelin. However... Genesis did change style, and at the same time totally sucked. They sucked all the way to "Calling All Stations" when the suckiness got so bad it enveloped itself and became it's own entity, a monster kept in Phil Collins' cellar. True. Honest.  |
Posted By: peter_gabriel
Date Posted: November 25 2006 at 22:36
walrus, that was pathetic 
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Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 03:04
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I only wished to make a comment about new order.Republic is a great album but i really liked Get ready and their latest effort.. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 03:05
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I would say Tangerine Dream after Poland, if they actually got mentioned here.
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Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 04:16
Agreed on Genesis, PF and Yes. But I disagree on Marillion: Childhood's End and Clutching at Straws captured Fish-era Marillion at its finest....
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 04:21
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Frank Zappa after "Them Or Us" Iron Maiden after "Fear Of The Dark", they became interesting again with "Brave New World" Led Zeppelin After "Presence" Genesis after "Duke". They were still an O.K band, thought Deep Purple after "Burn". Their 80's and 90's albums are still quite good. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 05:52
I partially agree as Poland (1984) is one of the best live albums I've ever come across.However I really like Underwater Sunlight (1986) and even Tyger (1987) has some good moments.I believe TD started to go noticeably downhill after 1987.
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Posted By: smithers
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 06:15
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deep purple-after come taste the band
yes-after 90125
black sabbath-after mob rules
genesis-after duke
tull-during Under wraps and Rock island albums only
caravan-after waterloo lily
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Posted By: zedkatz
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 06:30
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Can only judge on when I stopped listening to the following acts, or in some case where I continued to buy their albums desperately hoping they'd regain form. Prog: Genesis- after Wind and Wuthering Yes- After (and including bits of) Topographic Oceans Tull- After Heavy Horses Non-Prog: REM- After Automatic for the People Desperately Hoping: PFM- Stopped buying their studio stuff after Jet Lag (and jusging by PA reviews this seems to have bee wise) but recently got some of their later live albums, got Dracula (mmmm) and got the new one on order. Fingers crossed! |
Posted By: Jeremy Bender
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 06:42
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Pink Floyd - after the final cut
Yes - after tales from topographic oceans
King Crimson - never
ELP - after brain salad surgery
Dream Theater - after six degrees of inner turbulence
Genesis - they never had 'it'
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Posted By: Angplags
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 06:48
Dude, how can you resist the charms of "Love Beach"? |
Posted By: Eat_Paris
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 07:42
DT mentioned here?  r u sure? or maybe u just cant stand any palm muting and heavy distortion ?------------- "love prog .. simply because its beautiful" .. and lindsay lohan =P~ |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 09:20
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A question of taste....Yes after the Yes Album sounds about right. Even though I dig most of what they did right up thru Drama, a warmness (for lack of a better word) was lost with the loss of Banks' jazzy fills and Kaye's earthy keys (I think Bruford peaked with the band on the first three albums). What followed was often spectacular, they became a much more mature, accomplished group after TYA but the skin they shed was one smokin' outfit....really love those Banks Wes Montgomery imitations/freak outs on some of the late 60s bootlegs. ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: AcostaFulano
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 11:38
| CLUTCHING AT STRAWS is a wonderful album and so is misplaced childhood..... I don't think they lost it at all! |
Posted By: Agadepáuer
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 12:24
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Dream Theater after A Change of Seasons.
Iron Maiden after Fear of the Dark.
Metallica after the Black Album.
Pantera after Cowboys from Hell.
Fates Warning after Perfect Symmetry.
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Posted By: jiSh
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 12:58
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I agree with Fates Warning after Perfect Symmetry. Dream Theater went kinda flaky on Octavarium, there's only three songs I like from it (Root of All Evil/Sacrificed Sons/title track), they started to sound too much like other bands with their other songs. However, the "Score" concert totally rocked. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 14:22
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A few bands lose it... maybe not "lose it" as in losing quality or something (No, I honestly think they DO), but better yet "loose it" as in letting the prog-stream flowing through their veins loose and lost in a pool of waste.... But The Flower Kings will never lose it!!!!! ------------- 
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 14:31
| ^ you have to have had it the first place to have lost it |
Posted By: giantenemycrab
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 14:34
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Don't know if Rush has been mentioned, but I think they are one of the
few that had it, then really really completely lost it. After Grace
Under Pressure, they, well, sucked. As for DT, they had it, always did, and always will. Never have they lost it. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 14:57
| DT lost it after Awake, Focus after Hamburger Concerto (haven't heard the two new albums though, they might be good), Queensrÿche after OM. |
Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 14:59
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After reading some of the comments I quite like Tangerine Dream up to the Tournado tour - must be about 1997. Excellent sound - but to me they just didn't know how to finish a track. Probably why I liked the live album with the links between each piece producing a continuous sound.
Still can't get into Rush though - I have tried
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 16:17
a rightous argument, considering the departure of Franke up in that year. but I don't entrust Underwater Sunlight and, let's be reasonable, Tyger moderately, with quality and with the clear perspective with which the band walked under the dynamic Trio.  shall we say Le Parc as a compromise between our opinions? -------------
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 16:19
The Tournado tour was 1996 and concluded with Tournado, afterwards Valentyne Wheels. I may be the TD die-hard fan, but I also believe there's been serious undulations during the 1986-1996 period. From cheap to inefficient. From marginally adequate to occasionally tastefull (and when oh-oh! delice  ).But I can draw a point from Tournado, saying that after those albums, up in the Millenium, Tangerine Dream "got it back". oh, and I believe the point about Rush is bit misunderstood, in relation with the topic subject. -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 16:20
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You kidding me???
Phaedra 2005 =  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 16:22
why Mr. Stonie! It sure is not!   -------------
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Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 16:27
I thought Awake was not spectacular (it was good, though) and their best albums were released after Awake (mostly Scenes and Octavarium). ------------- 
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Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 16:29
KC never lost it. Discipline is amazing. So is the Power to Believe, and so is Thrak. -------------
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 16:40
I can't believe only one person mentioned ELP's Love Beach. That is the defintion of "losing it"
Here's some more bands, some not prog
Yes- Going For the One
Rush- Presto, though I think they rebounded wit Test For Echo and Vapor Trails, despite the later's atrocious production
Deep Purple- Burn, came back for Perfect Strangers, lost it immediately afterwards, came back with Purpendicular
Ozzy Osbourne- Bark At the Moon, came back briefly for No More Tears
Genesis- began with And Then There Were Three...
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Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 16:42
Going for the one? That's easily one of their best albums!!!! Shame on you! Shame, shame shame!!! -------------
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 17:34
...what? ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: smithers
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 18:18
| No more tears was a disgraceful album. Ozzmosis had about 3 decent songs, but the rest is crappy |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 18:32
Off course, now THAT'S WHEN Ozzy lost his famous progressive edge... ( )-------------
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Posted By: smithers
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 18:35
| Ozzy lost it in 1983 :) |
Posted By: Angplags
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 18:47
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Why don't we digress TOTALLY and start discussing as to when Liberace lost his progressive streak? Or perhaps Dean Martin?
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Posted By: Paul Stump
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 19:01
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You gotta love this strand. But title it 'When Prog Bands Go Bad' and sell it to ESPN2. One rule and one rule only; when the minion from the record company asks for a hit single; THAT's when prog bands go bad. Of course, prog singles can be good - Follow You Follow Me etc, Anyone's Daughter's Viel zuviel... Tangerine Dream: after they ditched the mellotron. Last decent album, 'Logos' Floyd: Animals Genesis: And Then There Were Three (some pretty tunes) Tull: Heavy Horses (altho Bursting Out postdated it) Machiavel: Mechanical Moonbeams PFM: Performance Funnily enough there were some bands who took the record company shilling and still made OK albums - AD's Neue Sterne (Brain) was one, as was Focus's unbelievably mad Focus Con Proby, and Banco's self-titled 1983 pop album was almost as good as A-ha. 30-minute epic or 3-minute single - by their progressive talent shall ye know them. Or something.
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Posted By: Trky_Lym
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 19:11
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I'll give King Crimson's later albums another chance, I'm just not so fond of Adrian Belew's voice for King Crimson. As for Tangerine Dream, I'll give Poland a listen. I'm also confused about Green Desert, I know it was recorded in 1973, but it released and re-mixed in 1984, so is it considered to be apart of their "pink years" or is it the "blue years" no matter what? ------------- |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 26 2006 at 21:53
What??! -------------
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 27 2006 at 01:13
hey, TD chat, how nice... Green Desert is a 1973/1986 reference. I did state, I believe, that I would rather call it a "blue years" light mode minimal charm. It would be slightly out of the experimental side of TD back in 1973. But the album was made for that year, so I'm not saying it is wrong. Just telling my preference. -------------
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 27 2006 at 02:39
Fair enough although I will still maintain that 'Song Of The Whale Pts 1 & 2' is excellent stuff....you really don't like that??!
 Tyger has 'London' and the title track although the second half of that album is just 'treading water'.
Both albums have about enough material to make a very good TD album.After that the only TD track I've heard that I like is 'Three Bikes In The Sky' from Melrose.
Le Parc is a very good album and perhaps the last consistently good TD album.My fave track:- Yellowstone Park with Clare Tory's nice vocals.
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Posted By: Trky_Lym
Date Posted: November 27 2006 at 05:20
I ment to say 86, not 84  .------------- |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 27 2006 at 10:58
Nope, Underwater dis-satisfies me completely. The attention given the Whale epic most especially. Not bad, but far from golden attributes or enormous rewardings. Tyger has London, but Tyger also has minimalism of consequences. So Tyger has London with minimalism of consequences. Melrose = not my favourite, though a grower. Lily On The Beach is my favourite "optical" album. My fave track of Le Parc: Hyde Park; deadly dark.  -------------
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