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Arbiter View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: We’re going down a slippery slope...
    Posted: August 07 2004 at 08:27

Recently, there have been suggestions that certain reviews or postings be deleted from this site. Doesn't Max have enough to do without also having to delete stuff? Let's be really careful here.

I think the right approach is for the admin group or the general membership to offer up guidelines from time to time as required (manni's excellent post on civility, and the ensuing debate, is an excellent case in point). We seem to have many people who quickly, and constructively, point out when someone "crosses the line", which is as it should be. Let's not make the mistake of creating a hard and fast rulebook. Next thing you know we'll have the Prog Police watching over us. I, for one, do not want to walk-on-eggshells everytime I submit something to this site.

If we're not careful, we'll be denying people their freedom to express themselves freely...censorship rears its ugly head...and then we'll miss out on the all important different point of view. The world is too narrow-minded as it is. Do we really want to get to the point where we form sub-committes to develop policy statements, a site vision, a clear mandate! Don't we all get enough of that sort of crap out in the real world?

In my opinion, loose and flexible guidelines are the safest way to go. Let's be clear - there are some lines that should never be crossed. The use of excessive, mean-spirited profanity, or the prejudiced, blanket condemnations of a member or group should not be tolerated. But let's raise the 'yellow card' (or give folks one 'strike') as an initial approach. Let's give everyone the benefit of the doubt...we all make mistakes. The site will filter out the swear words. If the offender continues the inappropriate behaviour (as defined by the guidelines), then we can take more aggressive action.

Browsing this site one quickly learns the "guidelines". For example, it's clear that it would be greatly appreciated by the majority if record reviews are written in English. Fine, I agree, its an english-langauge site. However, if someone is more comfortable expressing themselves in their native language, and really has some passion about an album and wants to share it coherently, doing so shouldn't be a crime. Some have suggested a forum specifically for reviews in languages other than english. Others feel it woul be okay if the main review is written in another tongue provided a brief summary of the main points, written in english, is also included. I'm sure we can work it out.

Not liking an artist, or stating that an album stinks, should be okay. The guidelines I've gleaned strongly suggest that such reviews must also explain why you don't like it, or how it stinks. Simply trashing something is not only improper, it's also boring, and inevitably ends up making someone angry (right em?). By all means, let's discuss, debate, even argue, but let's not fight. There's nothing like an interesting, challenging thread. If every once in a while it heats up a bit...so what...as long as it is the exception not the norm. Don't get me wrong, a thread that starts with "Mariah Carey...Selling Silicone by the Pound" is priceless, and we should be allowed to lightheatedly "dis" those artists we feel are too sappy/poppy/bubblegum or whatever (by the way, have we reached 100 pages yet?), as long as it's creative, interesting, funny, etc., and doesn't cross a line. Let's have fun with Mariah's choice of music, but in the end, let's not forget that in truth she is a incredibly talented vocalist. (Name one progger, or anyone for that matter, who has her total control of pitch in as many* octaves.)

Finally, let's also be careful not to define prog too rigidly. Prog is relative, and highly subjective, to a large degree. It really bothers me, for example, when someone states that Genesis post-Gabriel isn't prog. True, they start heading in a more commercial direction, but what do you want - "The Son of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway", or "The re-Selling of England by the Euro"? Genesis 'lightened' up, so what - 'Duke's Travels', 'Me and Sarah Jane', 'The Bohemian' - a lot of their "trio" stuff is not only prog, it's great prog (okay, you may not like it, but it certainly ain't pop). I'm sure there are many ATTWT fans in the closet because they're afraid of what others might think (in fact, the recent post on "Random Songs" bares that out). Bruford left Yes after "Close to the Edge" because he sensed that the vibe within the group was to maintain the "formula" (that's right formula). "Tales of Topographic Oceans" has its bright moments, but Bruford was right, they should have moved on.

This site is good because of the healthy, positive, insightful, funny, sometimes controversial, often provocative, always interesting exchange of ideas. This site is progressive! Let's keep it that way. 

*corrected 8/8/2004



Edited by Arbiter
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 08:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 09:20
Originally posted by Arbiter Arbiter wrote:

...but in the end, let's not forget that in truth she is a incredibly talented vocalist. (Name one progger, or anyone for that matter, who has her total control of pitch in eight octaves.)

Erm, let's not get carried away! No-one on earth has an 8-octave range, including the majority of instruments. Whoever said that MC has an 8-octave range was either making extortionately wild claims, or taking the Mickey, as we say in England. Her range IS wide and impressive - she has the natural gift of being able to use what is known as the "Dolphin" range in some circles - the range above C6 (2 above middle C). Realistic measurements put MCs range at around 4 1/2 - 5 octaves - still incredible, as most professional opera and jazz singers cannot claim such a range. Having heard MC, as is unavoidable, as a trained singer myself, I would dispute that she has total control over her voice...

It's not what you've got, it's what you do with it.

Finally, let's also be careful not to define prog too rigidly.

I think it's good to try to define it, so that we have a handle on what it is and don't start packing out the archives with, for example, the Beatles. It's also useful to have a broad definition if someone disputes whether a particular band or song is prog or not - as often happens.

However, I don't think it's actually possible to define prog rigidly!

This site is good because of the healthy, positive, insightful, funny, sometimes controversial, often provocative, always interesting exchange of ideas. This site is progressive! Let's keep it that way. 

Right on!

I removed the rest of your words from this quote because I agree with them on the whole. That might make me look a bit negative; to only pick on the bits I don't agree with - but what would be the point of me saying "I agree" over and over?

You make some very good points, IMO!



Edited by Certif1ed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 14:35
Originally posted by Arbiter Arbiter wrote:

Recently, there have been suggestions that certain reviews or postings be deleted from this site. Doesn't Max has enough to do without also having to delete stuff? Let's be really careful here.

Arbiter's has clearly given his posting a lot of thought, and I fully agree with what he says.

I don't think however that there have been many suggestions that reviews be deleted. There have been a very small number, but those reviews have clearly both breached the gudleines, and been overtly offensive.

Quite a number of reviews have been highlighted and discussed in the forum, and this is not only acceptable, it is to be encouraged. If someone disagrees with the contents of a review, or feels the review does not explain why the reviewer has said the things they have said, or that the review says something that is wrong, the forum is the place to disuss it (NOT by writing a review which criticises another review!).

As Arbiter says, "This site is good because of the healthy, positive, insightful, funny, sometimes controversial, often provocative, always interesting exchange of ideas". That must include the discussion of reviews which have been submitted.

I reckon the very small number of reviews which have been deleted have rightly been removed as they were overtly offensive and constituted a clear abuse of the site. I do however agree that reviews should not be deleted simply for being (what might be considered) badly written or for sl*gging (that'll get censored!Embarrassed) off a band or style of music.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 14:46
 Cool. Couldn't say it any better.
If you take a look at the official Mike Portnoy forum, it's unbelievable, their only thought is about rules. Nearly every post is denounced by anyone because it could hurt a rule...It's truly horrible there. I also think that guidelines are the best way to secure a good discussion here. Strict rules and hardcore editing is too much. I'm not concerned if really offending posts are deleted or edited but I don't think that it should go any further.
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 14:53

IMO no review should be deleted because the writter has an unpopular or even wrong opinion, that's freedom of speach.

But any offensive, racist, insulting  or even agressive review must be deleted for the health of the page.

If a review says for example: "Foxtrot is crap", well it's wrong (because I know it's a masterpiece ) but it's ok because it's an honest opinion.

If the same review says "Foxtrot is crap and anyone who likes that album is an idiot" (I saw similar phrases in some reviews), that review is offensive and must be deleted.

That's my opinion about the issue.

Iván

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 14:58

 

I agree with my compatriot. There is a difference between writing "some reviewers overrate this album"/"some dismiss this album for no valid reason" and "some reviewers are stupid enough to overrate this album"/ "some idiots dismiss this album". In the first case, the reviewer expresses a straight, healthy disagreement with others; in the second one, the reviewer is simply insulting the others using a specific prog album as an excuse to do so.

Regards.  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 15:11
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

IMO no review should be deleted because the writter has an unpopular or even wrong opinion, that's freedom of speach.

But any offensive, racist, insulting  or even agressive review must be deleted for the health of the page.

If a review says for example: "Foxtrot is crap", well it's wrong (because I know it's a masterpiece ) but it's ok because it's an honest opinion.

If the same review says "Foxtrot is crap and anyone who likes that album is an idiot" (I saw similar phrases in some reviews), that review is offensive and must be deleted.

That's my opinion about the issue.

Iván

 
 I second that...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 17:43
hmmm... i kinda get yer drift

lets deal with nthe Mariah carey thing.... cos that really fexxors me off LOL
aint no way on this earth or any other that carey has done anything other than PAP..errr...pop.
prog? awww c'mon whoever said dat!
ok...crit:
Her voice is really not good... it is over produced...often misses the mark... has all the emotion of...umm..something with no emotion.
EMOTION is NOT about pretending...or *shamming* some *love you..blah* lyric.
Take her *murder* of the great (non-prog (-.o)) Nilsens Cant live..
it was heinous... there was no emotion...just the normal pap that the average consumer expects (a la celine dion et al)
Can anyone think of a REAL prog outfit or outlay that has sung some other persons creation? well? noi...i mean sung it *well*? performed it *well*?
Don't get me wrong...I aint no music snob (-.o) oh no sireeeee!
My taste go from gregorian, through chamber music, through folk music, through prog, through hard rock in the style of Motorhead etc. through the likes of John lee hooker...through Lightning seeds, the Seeds, Julian Cope, Cyndi Lauper, West coast pop art experimental band, lollipoppe shoppe, roky erikson, Bjork,  U2 Blahdeee fekkerin blahdee.
Mariah C...proggy? in any way shape or form whatsoever.... me NOT TINK SO

IMHO....of course (-.o)

PEACE OUT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 17:44
oh yeah...one last point,.,, the 8 octave thing.
dude, I do not know what rags you been readin, but there is NO WAY on this earth that she has a stunning vocal capacity.
Sorry. It just aint so.
As for 8 octaves...weelll...lol...sorry...but it just aint hap'nin'

#edit (and yes I can comment becasue I am a professionally trained singer)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 17:50
Originally posted by NyghtOwl NyghtOwl wrote:

hmmm... i kinda get yer drift

lets deal with nthe Mariah carey thing.... cos that really fexxors me off LOL
aint no way on this earth or any other that carey has done anything other than PAP..errr...pop.
prog? awww c'mon whoever said dat!
ok...crit:
Her voice is really not good... it is over produced...often misses the mark... has all the emotion of...umm..something with no emotion.
EMOTION is NOT about pretending...or *shamming* some *love you..blah* lyric.
Take her *murder* of the great (non-prog (-.o)) Nilsens Cant live..
it was heinous... there was no emotion...just the normal pap that the average consumer expects (a la celine dion et al)
Can anyone think of a REAL prog outfit or outlay that has sung some other persons creation? well? noi...i mean sung it *well*? performed it *well*?
Don't get me wrong...I aint no music snob (-.o) oh no sireeeee!
My taste go from gregorian, through chamber music, through folk music, through prog, through hard rock in the style of Motorhead etc. through the likes of John lee hooker...through Lightning seeds, the Seeds, Julian Cope, Cyndi Lauper, West coast pop art experimental band, lollipoppe shoppe, roky erikson, Bjork,  U2 Blahdeee fekkerin blahdee.
Mariah C...proggy? in any way shape or form whatsoever.... me NOT TINK SO

IMHO....of course (-.o)

PEACE OUT
 
I don't get it, do you REALLY think that anyone meant it seriously about Mariah Carey ??? Isn't it obviousley that it is a huge joke?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 17:55
i just skip-read the post LOL :-s
the 8 octave thing just made me RETCH! and anyhows, it was constructive criticism for Ms carey


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2004 at 20:25

Out of the 'open' review sites I've seen, I've found that this one tends to have the highest percentage of useful and well-written contributions. That's a good indication that the majority of prog fans have an admirable level of intelligence, awareness, and consideration. I generally believe that the absence of rules and restrictions is the best possible situtation, and the general level of discourse on this site serves to reassure me that human beings can trade reasonable opinions with a minimum of unpleasantness.

Or, to say it more simply...don't change a thing! I can live with the foolish reviews- and even the borderline offensive ones- in order to enjoy the good thing we have here at Progarchives

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2004 at 01:57

All:

First, kudos to Arbiter for expressing so much so well.

For those who have visited the "language" thread in "Suggestions," you will know that I vigorously argued against deleting all non-english reviews- and, for the moment, Max has "put on hold" his plans to do so.

I did suggest that there be a limit to the number of languages - i.e., to those most frequently spoken, written and read: English, Spanish, French, German, Italian, perhaps one or two others.  Certainly it makes no sense to permit reviews in Serbo-Croatian, since only another Serbo-Croat could read it (yes, I know that Serbia and Croatia are no longer "together"...).  Hopefully, when the guidelines are updated, my suggestion will be included.

As for the "prog police," you will also remember that I argued against this notion in the civility thread, preferring as few guidelines as possible, but insisting that those few guidelines be followed.  Thus far (whether as a result of the civility thread or not), I have only had to delete one thread due to its inflammatory nature (and that one was created by a newbie who likely did not read the civility thread).  Again, whether or not a result of the civility thread, virtually all discussion and debate has remained civil - and sometimes (say it isn't so!) deferential!  And where I find (or am told about) potentially "dangerous" threads, I monitor them and, if need be, provide a post seeking to bring the discussion back to a dull roar (or even outright civility...).  And in all cases, people have been responsive and helpful in assisting me in this regard.

Finally, as for reviews (since that's what this thread is actually about), I believe that reviews should, if possible, give clear, informed reasons for how one rates an album, and why.  And for the most part, they do.  If a few non-informative reviews slip through, there is not much that can be done: we need to just read them and let them go.  (As an aside, bad grammar can be the result of a lack of solid English.  However, in some cases, the problem is in fact a bad translation program.  Let's keep this in mind when reading seemingly bizarre reviews.)

Thanks to all of you for your clear heads, reasoned comments, and positive approaches.  You do great credit to Progarchives - not to mention yourselves.

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2004 at 12:32

So this doesn't mean we have to stop the sexual innuendos does it??

THIS IS ELP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2004 at 03:27

Thanks for the feedback everyone.  Sounds like we're all on pretty much the same page! Max, manni and the admin group seem to have a good handle on these issues...I trust their judgement fully, and will always support the majority.

Thanks again to all those behind the scenes who help make this site happen.

------

Certif1ed Wrote:  "Erm, let's not get carried away! No-one on earth has an 8-octave range..."   

Sorry. I've edited my initial post to read 'many octaves', not 'eight octaves'. Someone once told me the word gullable wasn't in the dictionary....

------

threefates wrote: "So this doesn't mean we have to stop the sexual innuendos does it??"

No way! The day that stops we might as well pack it in.



Edited by Arbiter
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2004 at 03:45

[/QUOTE]
 
I don't get it, do you REALLY think that anyone meant it seriously about Mariah Carey ??? Isn't it obviousley that it is a huge joke?

[/QUOTE]

Maybe it's a huge joke...but why to speak about Mariah Carey on a prog site?...there are so many prog bands that we don't speak about and which deserve really more attention...I think that a topic on Mariah Carey might discredit the site

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2004 at 05:29
 philippe go ahead and post your little heart out, about what interests you , but for Gods sake, get a sense of humor. This is a great place to be, what we don´t need is a non dynamic prog police who takes things too seriously.

The intent with the Carey thread was to point out that non creative garbage should not be allowed to make records, then it turned into a Kindergarten kind of a thingy...........so what ? 

I find people like for instance Threefates very amusing, cos she is fun and not at all straight-laced.

And by the way Dream Theater is PROG





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2004 at 06:27
Hey you can´t do that on Progarchives vol 6
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2004 at 21:54

Originally posted by Velvetclown Velvetclown wrote:


I find people like for instance Threefates very amusing, cos she is fun and not at all straight-laced.


Yep, my laces are definitely bent, curved, twisted... you name it...

THIS IS ELP
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