Recently, there have been suggestions that certain reviews or postings be deleted from this site. Doesn't Max have enough to do without also having to delete stuff? Let's be really careful here.

I think the right approach is for the admin group or the general membership to offer up guidelines from time to time as required (manni's excellent post on civility, and the ensuing debate, is an excellent case in point). We seem to have many people who quickly, and constructively, point out when someone "crosses the line", which is as it should be. Let's not make the mistake of creating a hard and fast rulebook. Next thing you know we'll have the Prog Police watching over us. I, for one, do not want to walk-on-eggshells everytime I submit something to this site.

If we're not careful, we'll be denying people their freedom to express themselves freely...censorship rears its ugly head...and then we'll miss out on the all important different point of view. The world is too narrow-minded as it is. Do we really want to get to the point where we form sub-committes to develop policy statements, a site vision, a clear mandate! Don't we all get enough of that sort of crap out in the real world?

In my opinion, loose and flexible guidelines are the safest way to go. Let's be clear - there are some lines that should never be crossed. The use of excessive, mean-spirited profanity, or the prejudiced, blanket condemnations of a member or group should not be tolerated. But let's raise the 'yellow card' (or give folks one 'strike') as an initial approach. Let's give everyone the benefit of the doubt...we all make mistakes. The site will filter out the swear words. If the offender continues the inappropriate behaviour (as defined by the guidelines), then we can take more aggressive action.

Browsing this site one quickly learns the "guidelines". For example, it's clear that it would be greatly appreciated by the majority if record reviews are written in English. Fine, I agree, its an english-langauge site. However, if someone is more comfortable expressing themselves in their native language, and really has some passion about an album and wants to share it coherently, doing so shouldn't be a crime. Some have suggested a forum specifically for reviews in languages other than english. Others feel it woul be okay if the main review is written in another tongue provided a brief summary of the main points, written in english, is also included. I'm sure we can work it out.

Not liking an artist, or stating that an album stinks, should be okay. The guidelines I've gleaned strongly suggest that such reviews must also explain why you don't like it, or how it stinks. Simply trashing something is not only improper, it's also boring, and inevitably ends up making someone angry (right em?). By all means, let's discuss, debate, even argue, but let's not fight. There's nothing like an interesting, challenging thread. If every once in a while it heats up a bit...so what...as long as it is the exception not the norm. Don't get me wrong, a thread that starts with "Mariah Carey...Selling Silicone by the Pound" is priceless, and we should be allowed to lightheatedly "dis" those artists we feel are too sappy/poppy/bubblegum or whatever (by the way, have we reached 100 pages yet?), as long as it's creative, interesting, funny, etc., and doesn't cross a line. Let's have fun with Mariah's choice of music, but in the end, let's not forget that in truth she is a incredibly talented vocalist. (Name one progger, or anyone for that matter, who has her total control of pitch in as many* octaves.)

Finally, let's also be careful not to define prog too rigidly. Prog is relative, and highly subjective, to a large degree. It really bothers me, for example, when someone states that Genesis post-Gabriel isn't prog. True, they start heading in a more commercial direction, but what do you want - "The Son of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway", or "The re-Selling of England by the Euro"? Genesis 'lightened' up, so what - 'Duke's Travels', 'Me and Sarah Jane', 'The Bohemian' - a lot of their "trio" stuff is not only prog, it's great prog (okay, you may not like it, but it certainly ain't pop). I'm sure there are many ATTWT fans in the closet because they're afraid of what others might think (in fact, the recent post on "Random Songs" bares that out). Bruford left Yes after "Close to the Edge" because he sensed that the vibe within the group was to maintain the "formula" (that's right formula). "Tales of Topographic Oceans" has its bright moments, but Bruford was right, they should have moved on.

This site is good because of the healthy, positive, insightful, funny, sometimes controversial, often provocative, always interesting exchange of ideas. This site is progressive! Let's keep it that way. 

*corrected 8/8/2004

Arbiter wrote: Recently, there have been suggestions that certain reviews or postings be deleted from this site. Doesn't Max has enough to do without also having to delete stuff? Let's be really careful here.

Arbiter's has clearly given his posting a lot of thought, and I fully agree with what he says.

I don't think however that there have been many suggestions that reviews be deleted. There have been a very small number, but those reviews have clearly both breached the gudleines, and been overtly offensive.

Quite a number of reviews have been highlighted and discussed in the forum, and this is not only acceptable, it is to be encouraged. If someone disagrees with the contents of a review, or feels the review does not explain why the reviewer has said the things they have said, or that the review says something that is wrong, the forum is the place to disuss it (NOT by writing a review which criticises another review!).

As Arbiter says, "This site is good because of the healthy, positive, insightful, funny, sometimes controversial, often provocative, always interesting exchange of ideas". That must include the discussion of reviews which have been submitted.

I reckon the very small number of reviews which have been deleted have rightly been removed as they were overtly offensive and constituted a clear abuse of the site. I do however agree that reviews should not be deleted simply for being (what might be considered) badly written or for sl*gging (that'll get censored!) off a band or style of music.

IMO no review should be deleted because the writter has an unpopular or even wrong opinion, that's freedom of speach.

But any offensive, racist, insulting  or even agressive review must be deleted for the health of the page.

If a review says for example: "Foxtrot is crap", well it's wrong (because I know it's a masterpiece ) but it's ok because it's an honest opinion.

If the same review says "Foxtrot is crap and anyone who likes that album is an idiot" (I saw similar phrases in some reviews), that review is offensive and must be deleted.

That's my opinion about the issue.

Iván

I agree with my compatriot. There is a difference between writing "some reviewers overrate this album"/"some dismiss this album for no valid reason" and "some reviewers are stupid enough to overrate this album"/ "some idiots dismiss this album". In the first case, the reviewer expresses a straight, healthy disagreement with others; in the second one, the reviewer is simply insulting the others using a specific prog album as an excuse to do so.

Regards.  

Out of the 'open' review sites I've seen, I've found that this one tends to have the highest percentage of useful and well-written contributions. That's a good indication that the majority of prog fans have an admirable level of intelligence, awareness, and consideration. I generally believe that the absence of rules and restrictions is the best possible situtation, and the general level of discourse on this site serves to reassure me that human beings can trade reasonable opinions with a minimum of unpleasantness.

Or, to say it more simply...don't change a thing! I can live with the foolish reviews- and even the borderline offensive ones- in order to enjoy the good thing we have here at Progarchives

All:

First, kudos to Arbiter for expressing so much so well.

For those who have visited the "language" thread in "Suggestions," you will know that I vigorously argued against deleting all non-english reviews- and, for the moment, Max has "put on hold" his plans to do so.

I did suggest that there be a limit to the number of languages - i.e., to those most frequently spoken, written and read: English, Spanish, French, German, Italian, perhaps one or two others.  Certainly it makes no sense to permit reviews in Serbo-Croatian, since only another Serbo-Croat could read it (yes, I know that Serbia and Croatia are no longer "together"...).  Hopefully, when the guidelines are updated, my suggestion will be included.

As for the "prog police," you will also remember that I argued against this notion in the civility thread, preferring as few guidelines as possible, but insisting that those few guidelines be followed.  Thus far (whether as a result of the civility thread or not), I have only had to delete one thread due to its inflammatory nature (and that one was created by a newbie who likely did not read the civility thread).  Again, whether or not a result of the civility thread, virtually all discussion and debate has remained civil - and sometimes (say it isn't so!) deferential!  And where I find (or am told about) potentially "dangerous" threads, I monitor them and, if need be, provide a post seeking to bring the discussion back to a dull roar (or even outright civility...).  And in all cases, people have been responsive and helpful in assisting me in this regard.

Finally, as for reviews (since that's what this thread is actually about), I believe that reviews should, if possible, give clear, informed reasons for how one rates an album, and why.  And for the most part, they do.  If a few non-informative reviews slip through, there is not much that can be done: we need to just read them and let them go.  (As an aside, bad grammar can be the result of a lack of solid English.  However, in some cases, the problem is in fact a bad translation program.  Let's keep this in mind when reading seemingly bizarre reviews.)

Thanks to all of you for your clear heads, reasoned comments, and positive approaches.  You do great credit to Progarchives - not to mention yourselves.

Peace.

So this doesn't mean we have to stop the sexual innuendos does it??

Thanks for the feedback everyone.  Sounds like we're all on pretty much the same page! Max, manni and the admin group seem to have a good handle on these issues...I trust their judgement fully, and will always support the majority.

Thanks again to all those behind the scenes who help make this site happen.

------

Certif1ed Wrote:  "Erm, let's not get carried away! No-one on earth has an 8-octave range..."   

Sorry. I've edited my initial post to read 'many octaves', not 'eight octaves'. Someone once told me the word gullable wasn't in the dictionary....

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threefates wrote: "So this doesn't mean we have to stop the sexual innuendos does it??"

No way! The day that stops we might as well pack it in.

I don't get it, do you REALLY think that anyone meant it seriously about Mariah Carey ??? Isn't it obviousley that it is a huge joke?

[/QUOTE]

Maybe it's a huge joke...but why to speak about Mariah Carey on a prog site?...there are so many prog bands that we don't speak about and which deserve really more attention...I think that a topic on Mariah Carey might discredit the site

Velvetclown wrote: I find people like for instance Threefates very amusing, cos she is fun and not at all straight-laced.

Yep, my laces are definitely bent, curved, twisted... you name it...

Welcome to the forum!

I think that romance has always had a place in prog, and that the focus was shifting more towards it around the late 1970s - 1980s. It's not necessarily a "pop" thing, IMO.

2 extremes of prog romanticism;

"Call her moonchild
Dancing in the shallows of a river
Lonely moonchild
Dreaming in the shadow
of the willow."

"On the rebound, fumbling all the lines
The light at the end of the bottle - alcoholic alphabet
Through the looking glass the proof in my own reflection
Five senses down and reeling on the Cinderella search
On the rebound, fumbling all the lines
Decay on the vertical hold with a horizontal aim
Conversation needs translation
Three dimensions down dissolving on the Cinderella search"

Thats cause Pete Sinfield when not a cynic, was quite the romantic...

"But of course you know I love you
Or what else am I here for
Only you not face to face
But side by side forever more
And I need to be here with you
For without you what am I
Just another fool out searching
For some heaven in the sky
Take me closer to believing
Take me forward, lead me on
Through collision and confusion
While there's life beneath the sun
You are the reason I continue
So near for so long
So close yet so far away. "

Here's a couple more from two great prog bands;

"Don't misunderstand me, it's not always easy to say
The words in your head and your heart that you just can't explain".

(Lady Fantasy - Camel, in case you needed telling!)

"Understanding still not anything different:
Find another to lean on, start again for I should have long
gone, on reflection now it's just an experience.
Soon the pain will have ended, together never intended, as I
come and go I'll try to remember you".

(You can subtitle this "The other end of Romance", but it's another side of the same coin; Gentle Giant's "On Reflection").

...any excuse to post great lyrics

Romance on a Yes album...??

Contained in everything I do
There's a love, I feel for you
Proclaimed in everything I write
You're the light
Burning, brightly

Onward through the night
Onward through the night
Onward through the night of my life

Displayed in all the things I see
There's a love you show to me
Portrayed in all the things you say
You're the day
Leading the way

Onward through the night
Onward through the night
Onward through the night of my life

Drkhouse wrote:

I think the first two collins genesis albums were prog but when Steve Hackett left the prog faded fast.As soon as romance became the main subject as far as im concerned it became pop not prog

Well Drkhouse, romance "per se" is not bad, there are some great romatic tracks by many prog bands, if you read the lyrics carefully, Musical Box is a romantic track because even when killed by Cinthya, little Henry was in love with her even after dead.

The first Supper's Ready song Lover's Leap is very romantic:

"Walking across the sitting-room, I turn the television off.
Sitting beside you, I look into your eyes.
As the sound of motor cars fades in the night time,
I swear I saw your face change, it didn't seem quite right.
... And it's hello babe with your guardian eyes so blue
Hey my baby don't you know our love is true.

Coming closer with our eyes,
a distance falls around our bodies.
Out in the garden, the moon seems very bright,
Six saintly shrouded men move across the lawn slowly.
The seventh walks in front with a cross held high in hand.
... And it's hey babe your supper's waiting for you
Hey my baby don't you know our love is true.

I've been so far from here,
Far from your warm arms.
It's good to feel you again,
It's been a long time. Hasn't it ?"

But I agree with you, W&W was the last great Genesis album, IMHO any later album is just bland and boring pop.

Iván 

This is a very interesting topic- I would hesitantly offer the idea that a majority of prog fans are men with significant romantic frustrations- i.e., freaks and nerds, and before anyone posts an angry rebuttal, I readily admit I've fit that description for much of my life. I know a lot of embittered single guys who can't stand love songs, and the largely non-romantic prog genre (along with metal, punk, and instrumental jazz) is a pretty good oasis from the sappy sentimentality of a lot of pop music. Prog has a technical, abstract quality which endears itself to smart guys who can't get lucky

However, if you are saying that romantic equals bad, we'll have to throw out thousands of wonderful pieces of music from classical to jazz to blues to The Beatles. It's not a world I would want to live in.

Drkhouse wrote: I think the first two collins genesis albums were prog but when Steve Hackett left the prog faded fast.As soon as romance became the main subject as far as im concerned it became pop not prog"

Ivan wrote: Well Drkhouse, romance "per se" is not bad...But I agree with you, W&W was the last great Genesis album, IMHO any later album is just bland and boring pop."

Drkhouse and Ivan: I value and respect the balanced way in which you submit your opinions. I have very often felt exactly the same as way as both of you on a lot of topics and found your posts to always be thoughtful and interesting...but:

1. I'm confused. Reading through various posts and record reviews on this site I have often seen songs and albums condemned for lacking emotion, heart, or passion. Yet romance (which is a product of heart and/or emotion and or passion) is what makes prog bland, boring, or pop-like? Which is it that folks want?

Although I really love it when the music is played with a high degree of technical acumen, I often wish that it was accompanied by compelling emotional energy. Progressive metal often, but not always, fails to combine both. However, there are many Prog are bands that do combine both skill and heart, and Genesis, even post-Hackett Genesis, is one of the best examples.

2. Please explain to me how the following are pop and not prog:

• From "ATTWT": Down and Out, Ballad of Big, Burning Rope, Deep in the Motherlode, The Lady Lies
• From "Duke": The Duchess Suite (Behind the Lines, Duchess, Guide Vocal, Duke's Travels, Dukes End), Man of Our Times, Cul-de-Sac
• From "Abacab": Abacab, Me And Sarah Jane, Keep It Dark, Dodo / Lurker, Who Dunnit, Like It Or Not, Another Record
• From "Genesis": Mama, Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea, Just A Job To Do, Silver Raimbow
• From "Invisible Touch": Tonight, Tonight, Tonight (LP version), Land Of Confusion, Domino (In The Glow Of The Night/The Last Domino), The Brazilian
• From "We Can't Dance": Driving The Last Spike, Dreaming While You Sleep, Fading Lights.

Granted, Genesis was moving in a commercial direction as time went on, but the list above has more "prog", is more "proggy", and IMO has better "prog", than you can find in the entire catologues of Enchant, Supertramp, IQ, Jadis, Arena, Grey Eye Glances, Asia, Kansas, Queensryche, Dream Theatre, Threshold (all bands whose music I own a lot of, and enjoy immensely) just to name a few.

You don't have to like post-Hackett Genesis, and it doesn't bother me that you think it's bland or boring (power to you), but please, don't mis-label it with blanket statements like "As soon as romance became the main subject as far as im concerned it became pop not prog", or "W&W was the last great Genesis album, IMHO any later album is just...pop." I think they are incorrect.  It sounds to me like you haven't given this stuff much of a chance, which is unfortunate because I think you're missing out on some excellent prog (IMHO).

Take Care.

James Lee wrote: That's a lot of non-ELP posts, threefates. Are you feeling OK?

What do you mean James... that first one (Closer to Believing) might of mostly been written by Sinfield... but sang extremely beautifuly by one Mr. Greg Lake...

threefates wrote: James Lee wrote: That's a lot of non-ELP posts, threefates. Are you feeling OK? What do you mean James... that first one (Closer to Believing) might of mostly been written by Sinfield... but sang extremely beautifuly by one Mr. Greg Lake...

 oops- got me

Fitzcarraldo wrote: Well, they're corny and simple, but I do like the lyrics of ELP's "From The Beginning", at least in context of the music. A romantic track, at least from a male perspective.

I so agree!!!  Actually its my favorite song in the whole world...

http://www.greglake.com/newsite/html/discpops/08FTB.mp3 - http://www.greglake.com/newsite/html/discpops/08FTB.mp3

I think you're referring to the "Today Show" clip.  Was he wearing a red jacket? I have that on VHS.. its actually on-line somewhere, but my link has been broken to it.

As soon as romance became the main subject as far as im concerned it became pop not prog", or "W&W was the last great Genesis album, IMHO any later album is just...pop."

Well Arbiter, I have to say a few things:

1. Romance: As I say in my post romance "per se" (by, of, or in itself or oneself or themselves : as such) is not bad, I like romance and consider myself a romantic guy, when I fall in love I'm always the one that loves more, so how can I think romance in music is bad?
2. W&W was the last great Genesis album: a) I said that and I still believe in what I say. When Hackett left Genesis, they lost their principal characteristic, the atmospheric sound of his guitar mixed with Tony's keyboards. b) They also lost the mystery and darknes that was a trademark of the early Genesis. c) The goal of the band changed from the search of the musical quality for the search of the top ten hit.
3. IMHO any later album is just...pop.":  I also stand for this opinion, the vcchange in the bands's soound was dramatic, no more inteligent deep lyrics, great atmospheric guitar and glorious mellotron. The band is another one.
4. You may find one or two proggt songs after W&W but nothing more, for exampla Mama is not prog, because it's repetitive, boring and a guy shouting doesn't make a song progressive. It's different than the music they werev releasing but it isn't prog.
5. Phil Collins said in Genesis a History: "We became popular when we stopped releasing progressive music, theysay our new songs are boring....yes it's true but borin is good", so if the guy who took the lead of the band says it, who are we to doubt it?
6. Phil Collins is a prove that he was not interested in prog' any more, just explain the Disney Connection or his appearence with N'Sync"

Iván

Thanks Dambo, wanted to add a few things that you mentioned:

Romance is very much in the Prog vein. It's quite different than the bland and obvious sexuality of modern pop.

Iván

Quote from Ivan_2068:

Romance: As I say in my post romance "per se" (by, of, or in itself or oneself or themselves : as such) is not bad, I like romance and consider myself a romantic guy, when I fall in love I'm always the one that loves more, so how can I think romance in music is bad?

Danbo wrote: Romance is very much in the Prog vein. It's quite different than the bland and obvious sexuality of modern pop. Zappa used sarcasm to make his case against the pop/sex culture, but prog elevated love to a mystical/romantic level. Even todays prog bands handle the issue with kids gloves. Good post Ivan!

Good Discussion, eh? Thank's guys!

I just want to be clear 'cos I think you guys might me misunderstanding me - I do think prog can be romantic - I'm with you guys on that.  I also agree that Genesis went more pop as the years went by, I said so above. I simply can't accept Drkhouse saying that "adding romance to prog makes it pop" too much of a generalization, & often wrong (and you guys agree). On you're quote Ivan "any later album is just...pop", we'll have to agree to disagree - I haven't a problem with you not liking Genesis post Hackett, I simply felt that there was still some prog left as time went on (not "just...pop" as you initially wrote).

I guess I also disagree that as their music went on it got worse. To me, Genesis certainly changed, but good prog (specifically), and good music (generally), was still to be found in abundance. I guess, in the end, I end up with more music to love.

For me, pop is pop: there's good pop and there's bad pop, just like there is good prog and bad. Why do so many on this site feel all pop, or 'going pop', is bad, and why make a blanket condemnation? "Pop" is just short "popular"...Pink Floyd is the 7th most popular recording artist in the U.S. (over 70 million units sold) - but it's damn good pop!

"Even when the experts all agree, they may be mistaken." - Bertrand Russell

James Lee wrote: funny you mention that song- I just saw a video of it (really just him sitting and playing on stage) on VH1 Classics; not only do I like the song and he sounds as good as ever, but Greg's midsection also makes me feel better about my own expanding build

Is this the one James??

http://home.earthlink.net/~ladiesofthelake999/ftbtodayb.wmv - http://home.earthlink.net/~ladiesofthelake999/ftbtodayb.wmv

I'm not 100% sure- I kinda think the one I saw was more of a live stage situation (i.e., not so much closeup camera, more natural reverb...more of a bigger auditorium feeling than a studio set), but my memory is so bad that it could very well have been the same clip.

I'd like to think I'd remember that beautiful guitar, anyway- looks like a J-150 type (from the moustache bridge and the inlay on the pickguard), but I couldn't see if it said "Gibson" on the headstock and I have a feeling he wouldn't have an "off the rack" model

I guess it's time to get a TiVo, huh?

It is a Gibson J-200 original.  He used it a lot in the 90s... This is it here...