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Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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 Posted: August 18 2006 at 16:03 |
 akin wrote:
Oh No, A Lawyer! Help! 
Yes watch out or I'll sue you  Well, what I'm trying to say is that many general music references
- music.com: It's a generic music site, Prog Rock is just one category they mention lumped between Classic Rock, Punk and Disco music, they don't care for categorizations because their object is to serve all music fans from every genre without entering into details
- yahoo music: Even worst, this is a top 40 site mostly.
- allmusic: Absolutely inaccurate, I already corrected then 5 times, they don't mention Neo Prog, Prog Folk, only¨Progressive Rock and Prog Metal
- cduniverse: Hey, this is a store, they don't care for anything but to sell, the less deep they get into things, the better for them
- and other references like Encyclopedia Britannica (if they say something, no one can disagree,
 ): Enciclopaedia Brittanica as Wikipedia are only general resource sites, trust in especialized sites.
- progressiverock.com mention them like progressive rock, prog/art-rock or art-rock: This is a nice little site called also Strawberry Bricks and it's mostly a timeline from 1967 to 1979 (Despíte their front page mentions 1968). Neo Prog, Anglagatrd, etc don't exist for them, it's a good place to find beautiful pictures of the album covers and short reviews of SOME albums they choose or the owner likes, butdespite that they also say about Days of Future Passed: Pretentious, of course, but one thing is certain, this wasn’t really rock-n-roll. Ultimately the Moody Blues wrote marginally psychedelic pop tunes.
All these mentioned references are reliable: Sorry, none of them is reloiable as a specialized Prog site.
All the record stores I go classify moody blues as progressive rock: Also here in Perú you can find STYX, Cat Stevens, Moody Blues, Yes, Genesis, ELP and King Crimson all in the Progressive Rock section, but this again means nothing.
Mercado Livre, the largest auction site in my country has the subdivision progressive rock and almost all moody blues products are under the progressive rock subdivision: Mercado Libre Punto Com (That's the full name) sells anything my friend, from a needle to a house, don't expect them to be specialized in anything.
Submarino is the biggest online store from my country and they classify moody blues as progressive: Online sties inclluding Submarino are quite right, all is Progressive, from The Moody Blues to Dream Theater, but there are degrees and sub-genres they don't care about, the first rule of a salesman is to be simple, if you explain, hey, STYX is considered Progressive Rock, but it's really a B class prog band in comparisonn with Yes, Genesis and King Crimson, they won't sell anything, they have to tell you only It's Progressive.
So there is no reason for me, for example to accept Moody Blues as a non-prog band: It's Proto Prog, in other wrds almost Prog, with a lot of elements but still not completely.
For me proto-prog would be ok if proto-prog were considered progressive rock. But the way the genre is treated on this site, it isn't ok for me.: The Moody Blues never evolved in a fully Prog band, they stayed in their sweet melodies only until 1980 with Long Distance Voyager, so they never went further than Proto Prog, at least until 1980.
Iván
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: August 18 2006 at 16:40 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
akin wrote:
All these mentioned references are reliable: Sorry, none of them is reloiable as a specialized Prog site.
I don't think it
is correct to rely only on "specialized prog" sites, because they share
almost the same opinion because most are based on two or three other
sites, mainly ProgArchives and GEPR and a closed group rule them. They
are usually far more innacurate than sites which talk about music in
general, because the latter ones are based upon common sense, not the
opinion of few "prog specialists".
For example, if you pick the Hans Pokora book of vinyl for collectors
include many Brazilian bands classified as prog and psych which are
merely beat or worse because his Brazilian collaborator (I know him)
sends him records according to his own taste. So beat albuns are
considered progressive by the super-reliable source of Hans Pokora.
All the record stores I go classify moody blues as progressive rock: Also
here in Perú you can find STYX, Cat Stevens, Moody Blues, Yes, Genesis,
ELP and King Crimson all in the Progressive Rock section, but this
again means nothing.
This means something very important. Excluding
Cat Stevens, all these bands are always classified as prog here. So it
is a almost a concensus that these bands are prog (sorry for using your
statement  ).
Mercado Livre, the largest auction site in
my country has the subdivision progressive rock and almost all moody
blues products are under the progressive rock subdivision: Mercado
Libre Punto Com (That's the full name) sells anything my friend, from a
needle to a house, don't expect them to be specialized in anything.
I know this, but they contribute to show what the
opinion of the general public, not people who just because they own
lots of progressive rock albuns they are specialists and their opinion
is more accurate than the others' opinions.
Submarino is the biggest online store from my country and they classify moody blues as progressive: Online
sties inclluding Submarino are quite right, all is Progressive, from
The Moody Blues to Dream Theater, but there are degrees and sub-genres
they don't care about, the first rule of a salesman is to be simple, if
you explain, hey, STYX is considered Progressive Rock, but it's really
a B class prog band in comparisonn with Yes, Genesis and King Crimson,
they won't sell anything, they have to tell you only It's Progressive.
I think they would sell much more if they were
classified as rock/pop, hard rock or classic rock. People who buys
progressive know the bands they buy. No one will be induced to buy a
Styx album just because Submarino classified them as progressive (you
don't know the extent of the prejudice against prog rock in my country).
So there is no reason for me, for example to accept Moody Blues as a non-prog band: It's Proto Prog, in other wrds almost Prog, with a lot of elements but still not completely.
For
me proto-prog would be ok if proto-prog were considered progressive
rock. But the way the genre is treated on this site, it isn't ok for
me.: The Moody Blues never evolved in a
fully Prog band, they stayed in their sweet melodies only until 1980
with Long Distance Voyager, so they never went further than Proto Prog,
at least until 1980.
In your own humble opinion. I can ask every person I know that knows
Moody Blues and they will say that Days of Future Passed, In Search of
the Lost Chord, On the Threshold of a Dream, To Our's Children's
Children's Children, Question of Balance, Every Good Boy Deserves
Favour, Seventh Sojourn and even Octave are more progressive than Long
Distance Voyager. They will also say that the first seven I mentioned
are full prog, while Long Distance Voyager is not.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 19 2006 at 00:11 |
akin wrote:
I don't think it is correct to rely only on "specialized prog" sites, because they share almost the same opinion because most are based on two or three other sites, mainly ProgArchives and GEPR and a closed group rule them. They are usually far more innacurate than sites which talk about music in general, because the latter ones are based upon common sense, not the opinion of few "prog specialists".
If I'm checking history of Perú I will go to a Peruvian page, igf I'm studying Prog music I will go to a Progressive Rock site, because the people not only knows about Prog, but cares about it and digs into ythe mud to get info.
Most of the sites you mention copy their reviews and info from Allmusic.com a terribly inaccurate site (As I told you I corrected them at least 5 times and they silently verified the data and never mentioned a thing), useful to get an idea but their reviews show how little they know about Prog.
For example, if you pick the Hans Pokora book of vinyl for collectors include many Brazilian bands classified as prog and psych which are merely beat or worse because his Brazilian collaborator (I know him) sends him records according to his own taste. So beat albuns are considered progressive by the super-reliable source of Hans Pokora.
Please use reliable sites, check if they are members of the Progressive Rock Ring and after that check if Prog Archives, GEPR, Proggnosis, Progressor and Dutch Page mentions them becausze this sites are by far the most reliable.
This means something very important. Excluding Cat Stevens, all these bands are always classified as prog here. So it is a almost a concensus that these bands are prog (sorry for using your statement ).
Please man you and me know that most Record store owners know nothing about music, I've seen Mike Oldfield in Jazz, Peter Frampton, Richard Clayderman and Cat Stevens in Prog and Rick Wakeman in the classical section.
This stores are mostly big chains that hire kids who know nothing about music except a bit of Rap and top 40's just because they are cheap. In a store in Miami I won a CD for free that the kid who sold them had to pay because I asked for The Mamas and the Papas and the kid laughed, he said that this thing didn't existed and if I found one he would pay for it. I found 5 but only asked for one because didn't wanted to make him suffer but only to accept his responsabilities.
I know this, but they contribute to show what the opinion of the general public, not people who just because they own lots of progressive rock albuns they are specialists and their opinion is more accurate than the others' opinions.
Hey if you make a concert you just say Come and See Jethro Tull, the legendary Prog act. Nobody says Hey come to see Jethro Tull the Legendary partially Symphonic, partially Folk and who started as a Blues band act.
If you want to sell be generic and simple.
I think they would sell much more if they were classified as rock/pop, hard rock or classic rock. People who buys progressive know the bands they buy. No one will be induced to buy a Styx album just because Submarino classified them as progressive (you don't know the extent of the prejudice against prog rock in my country).
Yes,if you ask for:
- An old top 40's album or
- Classic Rock album or
- AOR album or
- POP album or
- Progressive Rock album
A good salesman will take The Grand Illusion by STYX and will give oit to you, he will never stop to tell you it's a mixture, or bland Prog or complex POP or anything if you ask Pop or Prog he will sell you the same album.
Check Amazon most of the reviews are crap because they mostly include the kind reviews and one bad review if it's too obvious, their business is selling, not giving a class on music.
In your own humble opinion. I can ask every person I know that knows Moody Blues and they will say that Days of Future Passed, In Search of the Lost Chord, On the Threshold of a Dream, To Our's Children's Children's Children, Question of Balance, Every Good Boy Deserves Favour, Seventh Sojourn and even Octave are more progressive than Long Distance Voyager. They will also say that the first seven I mentioned are full prog, while Long Distance Voyager is not.
Then you must be a member of the Moody Blues Fan club because not any reliable Prog site considers them a full Prog band.
Iván
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: August 20 2006 at 02:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Please man you and me know that most Record store owners know nothing about music, I've seen Mike Oldfield in Jazz, Peter Frampton, Richard Clayderman and Cat Stevens in Prog and Rick Wakeman in the classical section.
This stores are mostly big chains that hire kids who know nothing about music except a bit of Rap and top 40's just because they are cheap. In a store in Miami I won a CD for free that the kid who sold them had to pay because I asked for The Mamas and the Papas and the kid laughed, he said that this thing didn't existed and if I found one he would pay for it. I found 5 but only asked for one because didn't wanted to make him suffer but only to accept his responsabilities.
Iván
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You break through an open door for how much pertains the Record Store, Ivan... Hugh that the chain of Music Store "Musical Box" (profit in Friuli Venezia Giulia and Veneto, North East of Italy) includes the Kraftwerk and Klaus Shulze in the box of the Electronic Music (with the House Music), the Tangerine Dream and Vangelis in the box of New Age, the Saga in the box of Heavy Metal and the Can in the box of the groups/ artists POP... To create a box of Progressive/ Art Rock was ask too much? Likely today likely today it is not quite clear thing is the Progressive/ Art Rock. That is it is a music that in every period changed the music. (Polyphonic Music is the Progressive music of Medieval Age!!! [for example...])
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: August 20 2006 at 11:21 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Please
man you and me know that most Record store owners know nothing about
music, I've seen Mike Oldfield in Jazz, Peter Frampton, Richard
Clayderman and Cat Stevens in Prog and Rick Wakeman in the
classical section.
This
stores are mostly big chains that hire kids who know nothing about
music except a bit of Rap and top 40's just because they are cheap.
In a store in Miami I won a CD for free that the kid who sold
them had to pay because I asked for The Mamas and the Papas and the kid
laughed, he said that this thing didn't existed and if I found one he
would pay for it. I found 5 but only asked for one because didn't
wanted to make him suffer but only to accept his responsabilities.
Iván
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Sure? The record stores I´m talking about are those ruled by music
"connaiseurs", who own enormous private collections of albuns and they
are tuned with every source of music and music classifiers. Every old
prog band I find in the progarchives they own at least one record of
them and they know the mid-price of the album, all their discography,
including guest appearances, original and re-releases, etc. This
ones are more speciallists than me and you, and they do know what they
are doing, because everytime I enter to a store like that, I see
customers search for The Moody Blues in the Progressive Rock Shelf.
Big chains usually have rock/pop only. When I ask for some album, they simply search for alphabetical order.
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Yukorin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2005
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1589
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Posted: August 25 2006 at 14:14 |
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Edited by Yukorin - September 14 2006 at 06:34
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 25 2006 at 16:16 |
akin wrote:
¿Sure? The record stores I´m talking about are those ruled by music "connaiseurs", who own enormous private collections of albuns and they are tuned with every source of music and music classifiers. Every old prog band I find in the progarchives they own at least one record of them and they know the mid-price of the album, all their discography, including guest appearances, original and re-releases, etc. This ones are more speciallists than me and you, and they do know what they are doing, because everytime I enter to a store like that, I see customers search for The Moody Blues in the Progressive Rock Shelf.
Big chains usually have rock/pop only. When I ask for some album, they simply search for alphabetical order.
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Again Akin, simplicity is the key forselling anything.
Most opeople except the lunatic obsessed as we don't care for Sub-Genres or categories, the average Prog listener before he joins a forum only worries fopr the word Progressive Rock.
But I'm sure if you ask those specialized owners (As we do ghere with the few we have) they will be able to goive you more advanced information.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 25 2006 at 16:17
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: August 28 2006 at 12:55 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
akin wrote:
¿Sure? The record stores I´m talking about are those
ruled by music "connaiseurs", who own enormous private collections of
albuns and they are tuned with every source of music and music
classifiers. Every old prog band I find in the progarchives they own at
least one record of them and they know the mid-price of the album, all
their discography, including guest appearances, original and
re-releases, etc. This ones are more speciallists than me and
you, and they do know what they are doing, because everytime I enter to
a store like that, I see customers search for The Moody Blues in the
Progressive Rock Shelf.
Big chains usually have rock/pop only. When I ask for some album, they simply search for alphabetical order.
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Again Akin, simplicity is the key forselling anything.
Most opeople except the lunatic obsessed as we
don't care for Sub-Genres or categories, the average Prog listener
before he joins a forum only worries fopr the word Progressive Rock.
But I'm sure if you ask those specialized owners
(As we do ghere with the few we have) they will be able to goive you
more advanced information.
Iván |
Yes, and they recommend Moody Blues as a progressive rock in any level.
They don't recommend lots of things classified as prog, but this is not
the case with Moody Blues.
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Fusionman
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 86
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Posted: August 28 2006 at 14:02 |
Seyo wrote:
PROGRESSIVE ROCK by definition is NOT POP and has nothing to do with pop music. I am against any new categories like "progressive pop" (sounds contradictory) and even this prog-related is questionable. But I am also against PROGRESSIVE METAL, because it is IMHO only a modified form of heavy metal, which is NOT progressive rock. But who cares? |
That's very shallow.
Pop(ular) just means exactly what it says. Whatever is popular amongst the largest musical target (Teenagers). When prog bands were popular they were in fact 'Pop'.
Prog is just a modified version of various classical/romantic/baroque ages of music. Pretty much every kind of music out there is a modified form of some other kind of music.
Edited by Fusionman - August 28 2006 at 14:04
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: August 28 2006 at 16:19 |
This has become a discussion of the proginess of the moody blues so I am glad to say my un educated opinion that the moodies are definitely prog and I will support Maani's claim that they should classified as symphonic although I agree they are not full symphonic as Yes, Genesys or Talk talk (last 2 albums are probably more symphonic than any other album I know).
We should remember that the moodies were there at the very begining of prog and maybe did not make the first prog album (one thread few weeks ago claimed that PF's PATGOD was released 2-3 months before DOFP) but when they wrote their music they were exploring a totaly virgin area. They did create the first concept album and made a milestone of prog.
Personally I do not care much for exact definitions, knowing it is never 100% accurate. The line between true symphonic to ..... (let's say art rock) is vauge and in any case art rock here became an umbrella to unique bands (KC, VDGG), soft rock (early talk talk, BJH), complex / inteligent new wave (Sylvian, Eno) and many other bands that does not fit to any other sub-genre. So I can live with them concidered as proto prog (they are one of the bands who started it all unlike procol harum for an example that sounds proto prog but started while symphonic was released - ITCOTCK).
I would suggest all of us to stop arguing about classification and definitions since we never will totally agree. I agree with Ivan that only nuts like us that are obssesed with prog care about definitions but I feel it came to a point it is useless. However, for months I've been planning to suggest a different approach of how to easily get an idea about the style of music of a band and I feel this is the right time to make the effort to do it so I'll try post it realy soon.
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omri
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moodyxadi
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 01 2005
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 417
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 20:25 |
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Ok, this is a prog site. But who cares if The Moody Blues is Proto-prog or Symphonic if their music is brilliant? Everytime I see Genesis in the Top Ten of this site and read the prejudicial reviews about The Moodies I laugh to myself, because I really apreciatte the last one miles ahead than the archetipical prog band cited above. It's a matter of taste. The only ridiculous thing about the issue of this topic is the tentative of diminhing the artistic value of the Moody Blues using as measure their (no-)progressiveness. This is sooooooooooo pretentious ...
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