Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge

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Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27368
Printed Date: November 24 2024 at 11:55
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Topic: Prog Related list:

Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Subject: Prog Related list:
Date Posted: August 16 2006 at 09:40

I noted that a lot they do not accept the "Prog Related" definition. Well then I believe that, at least for the more POP band, is better to renamed this list "POP Progressive" and to move the other band in the Prog Metal or Art Rock lists.

It does though of it?

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Replies:

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 16 2006 at 09:47

Many of us agree with the 'progressive pop' definition for bands like, for instance, 10 cc or Roxy Music (which were not so pop in the beginning, but became more so towards the end of their career). As to the others, I tend to agree with you - however, I think in that case there would be the need for some subsections within each genre.

Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: August 16 2006 at 10:11

My opinion is that Prog Related ought to be removed altogether, and those Progressive Pop bands proggish enough should be moved to a category of their own.

Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: August 16 2006 at 10:48

I don't think so. Many of the bands are not pop, but rock. It would be misleading to label these bands progressive pop, because they are not progressive bands.

The whole (useless) point of prog related is to put in bands that are not quite prog, but close. Progressive pop, the concept and name itself, demeans prog, because it's the opposite of prog.

I agree Prog Related should be deleted, or at least renamed Prog-Influenced or Non-Prog. Proto-prog can stay, as it conatins bands that influenced and started the prog scene ie Moody Blues, the Beatles, Procol Harum.

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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: August 16 2006 at 18:59

As always, trying to fritch the categories will result in subjective feelings about who belongs where. Personally, I agree that "prog-related" is far too vague. However, if I were choosing "who goes where" (which I am not, since that is the exclusive purview of the webmasters), there are many changes I would make.

I would definitely add a "progressive pop" category, but the bands I would include in that would be 10CC, Supertramp, Styx, Queen, Roxy Music, Klaatu, and a few others. (I would also add XTC to the site and put them there as well).

I would also re-assess the "art rock" category, since I feel it does not accurately classify some, if not many, of the groups in it.

I would also re-classify some "proto-prog" bands to other categories: most clearly, The Moody Blues are not "proto-prog"; they are the first true symphonic prog band, and that is where they belong.

Those are just a very few of the things i would do if I were king...LOL

Peace.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 16 2006 at 23:23

maani wrote:

As always, trying to fritch the categories will result in subjective feelings about who belongs where. Personally, I agree that "prog-related" is far too vague. However, if I were choosing "who goes where" (which I am not, since that is the exclusive purview of the webmasters), there are many changes I would make.

Pop Prog is a natural contradiction, Prog Related is a fancier name for the bands that are mainstream (Or close to it) but with some relation to Progressive Rock.

I would also re-assess the "art rock" category, since I feel it does not accurately classify some, if not many, of the groups in it.

Already made a new tentative definition for Art Rock in the Collaborators section, but seems except the other two horsepeople there's not much interest.

I would also re-classify some "proto-prog" bands to other categories: most clearly, The Moody Blues are not "proto-prog"; they are the first true symphonic prog band, and that is where they belong.

The Moody Blues Symphonic Maani?

They started as a Psyche/Proto Prog band and became more and more commercial with the pass of the years, in the early 70's they were doing mainstream in comparison with the early Symphonic bands.

Only when Patrick Moraz joined them (And because Prog was in decadence in the 80's) they became Progger than most bands releasing the excellent Long Distance Voyager.

Days of Future Passed is only a collection of soft songs (Easilly changed by the same Moody Blues in hit singles) with an artificial orchestral intro and coda.

Those are just a very few of the things i would do if I were king...LOL

Thanks Heaven this is not a monarchy

Iván

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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: August 17 2006 at 06:05

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

~~Pop Prog is a natural contradiction, Prog Related is a fancier name for the bands that are mainstream (Or close to it) but with some relation to Progressive Rock.~~

~~I would also re-assess the "art rock" category, since I feel it does not accurately classify some, if not many, of the groups in it.~~

~~Already made a new tentative definition for Art Rock in the Collaborators section, but seems except the other two horsepeople there's not much interest.~~

I would also re-classify some "proto-prog" bands to other categories: most clearly, The Moody Blues are not "proto-prog"; they are the first true symphonic prog band, and that is where they belong.

The Moody Blues Symphonic Maani?

They started as a Psyche/Proto Prog band and became more and more commercial with the pass of the years, in the early 70's they were doing mainstream in comparison with the early Symphonic bands.

Only when Patrick Moraz joined them (And because Prog was in decadence in the 80's) they became Progger than most bands releasing the excellent Long Distance Voyager.

Days of Future Passed is only a collection of soft songs (Easilly changed by the same Moody Blues in hit singles) with an artificial orchestral intro and coda.

Those are just a very few of the things i would do if I were king...LOL

Thanks Heaven this is not a monarchy

Iván

It would be able also to be true how much account. Nevertheless The Moody Blies use by a lot of discs of the 70's the Mellotron to replace the orchestra because the orchestra had a superior cost (and for this that the Mellotron was invented). Their music certainly was POP but with an office of innovation that cannot do member The Moody Blues to the POP scene but, rather, to the Progressive scene. That then they have begun likr beat band... Also PFM (with the "I Quelli" name), Le Orme and New Trolls began playing Beat. But no it puts in doubt that they be Prog bands. A speech seems me, the yours, more suitable to the Procol harum, in any case.

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Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: August 17 2006 at 07:53

Why move bands that are by definition NOT prog bands to prog metal??? A genre that IS prog?

nuff said

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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 17 2006 at 12:00

Well, I think prog related is a valid category, but should be somewhat refactored.

I see prog related as a category were we could put interesting albuns/bands for prog fans made by non-prog bands. The problem is redefining prog rock by the use of this category. Prog Pop is not a bad idea as far as it has bands like Supertramp, which were always considered progressive (art-rock) , and classify them as prog rock, not prog-related (which means non-prog).

Talking about prog and non-prog, Proto-prog is a bad definition as far as it contains bands considered prog for most of the progressive rock references and bands considered non-prog.

Posted By: maani
Date Posted: August 17 2006 at 13:42

Ivan:

I went back and looked at the definition of "Symphonic Prog." I guess the problem is that I disagree with it. In fact, according to your definition, Jethro Tull should be classified as Symphonic Prog since they probably used more actual, true classical influences than any other prog band, including Yes or Genesis. Indeed, based on the entire list of criteria of "Symphonic Prog" - and particularly your special note about influences - Jethro Tull is definitely Symphonic Prog; to call them "Prog Folk" is, at best, to "overvalue" their folk influences (which are certainly there), and, at worst, to demean them by rejecting their broad, consistent and obvious classical influences.

Peace.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 17 2006 at 16:05

maani wrote:

Ivan:

Peace.

Well Maani, it's easy to disagree with a definition that has improved the one existing, it's not perfect but is the more accurate that you can get and we did it becaue it needed to be changed.

No genre is 100% accurate, Genesis has also a touch of Folk, Kansas has Hard Rock and Country Music, Aphrodite's Child is in Folk but could easily be in Symphonic also, this is a case by case decision.

If we are wrong in something is because we try to do something, only those who dare to make changes can faill sometimes, something not too hard in art, a discipline that has no 100% exact rules. Yes, Jethro Tull could be in Symphonic or even better in Art Rock, but the choice is Folk and that you would have to talk with Sean.

The old two lines definition of Symphonic that said nothing was since the beginning to this year and after consulting with the Collaborators I made the change that nobody did before, I took the risk and accept the consequences, now it can be improved but there are many things to change like the Art Rock definition, something that again I'm already trying to start with a pre definitions to receive feedback.

We placed this definition (When you were not in the forum) in the Collaborators zone for a while and there were no objections, by the contrary most members (Including one of the owners who sent me a PM) agreed it was a great improvement from the previous.

Now to the issue:

There are bands like Jethro Tull that have two or more influences and we have to choose one Renaissance IMO is as close to folk as Jethro Tull but Jethro is considered an Icon of Folk.

There's something important also, Jethro Tull has a clear Pastoral atmosphere in each and every album (Except the first two ones that are closer to Blues which BTW is an ethnic expression of USA derivative of Jazz).

Songs from the Woods and Heavy Horses are 100% Folk and even those albums that are inspired in Classical Music are influenced by Medieval Classical, which is exactly the point of musical history that divides Classical (In a broad sense) from Trouvadoresque Folkloric.

So I believe that Jethro Tull is OK where it is, some people are talking of changing them to Art Rock, but I beliecve they have such a unique Pastoral and Bucolic sound that the Folk influence must be protected over the rest.

Now, don't blame Symphonic for The Moody Blues, this Proto Prog decision was taken by mailto:M@X - M@X and Prog Lucky and I agree with them, most site in the Progressive Net includes Moody Blues as Proto Prog, Psyche or even POP mainstream:

[quote ]I've been a Moodies fan for years, but I rarely discuss them in a progressive forum like this one. That's because while a lot of fans of http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html#SYMPHO - symphonic prog rock love the Moodies, very few would say that their music is progressive in the sense of http://www.gepr.net/y.html#YES - Yes or http://www.gepr.net/ga.html#GENESIS - Genesis . And because of the nature of the band's more recent output, most people consider them more of a radio-ready adult-contemporary group, and I'm likely to get bounced all the way to rec.music.misc. The band's roots are firmly R&B. The initial line-up (Denny Laine (gtr/vox), Clint Warwick (bass), Graeme Edge (perc), Mike Pinder (keys/vox), and Ray Thomas (sax/flutes/vox)) recorded a bunch of R&B stuff, including one hit called "Go Now." When Laine and Warwick left and Justin Hayward (guitar/vocals) and John Lodge (bass/vocals) joined up, things changed considerably. They recorded their first (and probably most progressive) album (Days...) with the London Festival Orchestra. Edge's poetry, Hayward's vocals, Thomas' flute, and the full orchestra backing gave the album a lush, warm feel. This is also one of the band's most accessible albums, appealing to fans of prog, classical, psychedelia, soft rock, and classic rock. But the overriding "progressiveness" of recording with an orchestra (well, it was progressive then!) tagged the Moodies as a prog rock band, even though all of their subsequent albums were only marginally progressive, at best.

http://www.gepr.net/mofram.html - http://www.gepr.net/mofram.html

[/quote]

It's almost a concensus they are barely Prog, and nobody outside or insude PA believes they are Symphonic.

Iván

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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 17 2006 at 17:20

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

maani wrote:

Ivan:

Peace.

Well Maani, it's easy to disagree with a definition that has improved the one existing, it's not perfect but is the more accurate that you can get and we did it becaue it needed to be changed.

Now to the issue:

There are bands like Jethro Tull that have two or more influences and we have to choose one Renaissance IMO is as close to folk as Jethro Tull but Jethro is considered an Icon of Folk.

http://www.gepr.net/mofram.html - http://www.gepr.net/mofram.html

It's almost a concensus they are barely Prog, and nobody outside or insude PA believes they are Symphonic.

Iván

[/QUOTE]

I disagree with you. There is no consensus as you say. If you search other sources, many progressive rock sites consider Moody Blues just a Progressive Rock Band (as they have been called for many years, along with Supertramp until some people on the internet decided to change de definition of progressive rock according to their own tastes -> not talking about you, Ivan, but about some places where they state their own tastes as the complete truth and then others use them as reference).
Maybe not Symphonic, but probably art-rock or even folk prog, as they have many folkish influences.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 00:32

akin wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It's almost a concensus they are barely Prog, and nobody outside or insude PA believes they are Symphonic.

Iván

I disagree with you. There is no consensus as you say.

Hi Akin, I am very careful with my words (Something I learned as a lawyer ), I said ALMOST a concensus, in other words in most RELIABLE Prog sites, the Moody Blues are considered Proto Prog or barely Prog.

If you search other sources, many progressive rock sites consider Moody Blues just a Progressive Rock Band (as they have been called for many years, along with Supertramp until some people on the internet decided to change de definition of progressive rock according to their own tastes -> not talking about you, Ivan, but about some places where they state their own tastes as the complete truth and then others use them as reference).

And I dare to say that because for our work with Symphonic I chacke (As Raffaella and Micky) most of the most important Prog sites that are really 4 or 5 besides Prog Archive (GEPR, Proggnosis, Progressive Ears, Dutch Progressive Web and Progressor), the other sites may be good but not in the level of the aforementioned.

GEPR: Already copied their opinion and they say Moody Blues are MARGINALLY PROG AT THE BEST.

Proggnosis: Considers them Art Rock, but Proggnoisis stays with an older definition of Art Rocjk that says: Overall Description: The anchors of this sub-genre are those mid-70’s bands that were not at that time considered strictly or at all prog - Roxy Music, 10cc, Alan Parsons, Be Bop Deluxe etc. Under modern standards they clearly are prog/art rock. Bands that currently play similar music - pop with an artistic flavour - fall into this sub-genre.....In other words not strictly Prog

Progressor only reviews those bands that they consider 100% Prog and they don't care about the Moody Blues enough to review them but compares this band in other reviews about early Proto Kw with Poppuy Alan Parsoins Project..

Progressive Ears: Considers them Psychedelia oriented towards Symphonic, in good English...Proto Prog.

DPRP (Dutch Progressive Rock Page) doesn't include The Moody Blues in their reviews section and they include thousands of bands.

Just in case I checked other reliable sites:

GNOSIS and they don't mention The Moody Blues
Proggressive World Net: Neither
ProgNaut: Doesn't review any Moody Blues album.

But of course this last three sites are not as reliable IMHO, even though they don't even care about The Moody Blues.

So again, at least in the main sites it's almost a concensus that Moody Blues are at the most Proto Prog.

Maybe not Symphonic, but probably art-rock or even folk prog, as they have many folkish influences.

Symphonic no way, if you read our definition of Proto Prog, there's no other place for them:

Proto Prog: Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development of progressive rock. The late 60's was a predominately experimental period for music. These bands were moving in a stream that eventually led to prog. The influence could have come from new sophisticated forms of writing and playing music, recording techniques, new instruments and vocal harmonies to name a few. Some of these bands became progressive rock bands themselves others did not.

The definition is clear as water, if the Moody Blues are not Proto Prog, then Proto Prog doesn't exist.

Iván

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 01:54

Wasn't there a poll awhile back suggesting they be moved to symphonic where the idea was crushed by an overwhelming margin?

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 03:13

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^

Wasn't there a poll awhile back suggesting they be moved to symphonic where the idea was crushed by an overwhelming margin?

Sadly that poll was terribly done (Sorry Mandrakeroot, but if you keep inventing sub-genres no poll is valid) I recommend to use real sub-genres, Beat Prog, Symphonic Pop and Symphonic Proto Prog just don't exist:

Poll Question: Which is really Moody Blues sub genre?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Beat Prog	2	[6.06%]
Symphonic Proto Prog	17	[51.52%]
Symphonic POP	6	[18.18%]
Other	8	[24.24%]

But at the end that's pretty exact, it's Proto Prog rooted in pre symphonic.

Cr*p got mixed already.

Iván

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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 06:21

10CC England - ???????????
AMBER LIGHT, THE Germany - Psychedelic/Space Rock

ANDERSON, JON England

ASIA England - yes

BARRETT, SYD England - Psychedelic/Space rock

BUSH, KATE England - ????????????

ELECTRIC LIGHT ORCHESTRA England

FAIRPORT CONVENTION England

GABRIEL, PETER England - Art Rock

GILMOUR, DAVID England

MAGNUM England - ???????????

MANZANERA, PHIL England
MASON, NICK England

MASTERPLAN Multi-National - ??????????????????You mean that power-metal c**p with clished pompous music?..

MUSE England - ???????????

PARSONS BAND, ALAN England
PARSONS PROJECT, ALAN England - Psychedelic/Space rock or Art-Rock

PHISH United States - ???????????

PRIMUS United States

QUEEN England - Art-rock

ROXY MUSIC England - Art-rock

RUTHERFORD, MIKE England

SAGA Canada - ????????????????????????????????

SINFIELD, PETER England

STYX United States - ???????????????????????????????????????????

SUPER FURRY ANIMALS Wales

VAI, STEVE United States - ????????

WETTON, JOHN England

WISHBONE ASH England - hard-rock

WRIGHT, RICHARD England

Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 06:45

PROGRESSIVE ROCK by definition is NOT POP and has nothing to do with pop music. I am against any new categories like "progressive pop" (sounds contradictory) and even this prog-related is questionable. But I am also against PROGRESSIVE METAL, because it is IMHO only a modified form of heavy metal, which is NOT progressive rock. But who cares?

Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 06:47

OMG the horriblly annoying post layouts are back Ouch

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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 10:08

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^

Wasn't there a poll awhile back suggesting they be moved to symphonic where the idea was crushed by an overwhelming margin?

Poll Question: Which is really Moody Blues sub genre?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Beat Prog	2	[6.06%]
Symphonic Proto Prog	17	[51.52%]
Symphonic POP	6	[18.18%]
Other	8	[24.24%]

But at the end that's pretty exact, it's Proto Prog rooted in pre symphonic.

Cr*p got mixed already.

Iván

For how much it pertains the SYMPHONIC POP style it came used before ITCOKC to indicate the groups (really) Proto Prog.

I should say that I am more all right to consider Prog the THE MOODY BLUES and the WISHBONE ASH rather that the QUEEN, SUPERTRAMP or ALAN PARSONS!!!

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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 15:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

akin wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It's almost a concensus they are barely Prog, and nobody outside or insude PA believes they are Symphonic.

Iván

I disagree with you. There is no consensus as you say.

GEPR: Already copied their opinion and they say Moody Blues are MARGINALLY PROG AT THE BEST.
Proggnosis: Considers them Art Rock, but Proggnoisis stays with an older definition of Art Rocjk that says: Overall Description: The anchors of this sub-genre are those mid-70’s bands that were not at that time considered strictly or at all prog - Roxy Music, 10cc, Alan Parsons, Be Bop Deluxe etc. Under modern standards they clearly are prog/art rock. Bands that currently play similar music - pop with an artistic flavour - fall into this sub-genre.....In other words not strictly Prog
Progressor only reviews those bands that they consider 100% Prog and they don't care about the Moody Blues enough to review them but compares this band in other reviews about early Proto Kw with Poppuy Alan Parsoins Project..
Progressive Ears: Considers them Psychedelia oriented towards Symphonic, in good English...Proto Prog.
DPRP (Dutch Progressive Rock Page) doesn't include The Moody Blues in their reviews section and they include thousands of bands.

Just in case I checked other reliable sites:

GNOSIS and they don't mention The Moody Blues
Proggressive World Net: Neither
ProgNaut: Doesn't review any Moody Blues album.

But of course this last three sites are not as reliable IMHO, even though they don't even care about The Moody Blues.

So again, at least in the main sites it's almost a concensus that Moody Blues are at the most Proto Prog.

Maybe not Symphonic, but probably art-rock or even folk prog, as they have many folkish influences.

Symphonic no way, if you read our definition of Proto Prog, there's no other place for them:

The definition is clear as water, if the Moody Blues are not Proto Prog, then Proto Prog doesn't exist.

Iván

Oh No, A Lawyer! Help! LOL

Well, what I'm trying to say is that many general music references (music.com, yahoo music, allmusic, cduniverse) and other references like Encyclopedia Britannica (if they say something, no one can disagree, Wink

), progressiverock.com mention them like progressive rock, prog/art-rock or art-rock.

All these mentioned references are reliable.
All the record stores I go classify moody blues as progressive rock
Mercado Livre, the largest auction site in my country has the subdivision progressive rock and almost all moody blues products are under the progressive rock subdivision.
Submarino is the biggest online store from my country and they classify moody blues as progressive

So there is no reason for me, for example to accept Moody Blues as a non-prog band.

For me proto-prog would be ok if proto-prog were considered progressive rock. But the way the genre is treated on this site, it isn't ok for me.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 16:03

akin wrote:

Oh No, A Lawyer! Help! LOL

Yes watch out or I'll sue you

Well, what I'm trying to say is that many general music references

music.com: It's a generic music site, Prog Rock is just one category they mention lumped between Classic Rock, Punk and Disco music, they don't care for categorizations because their object is to serve all music fans from every genre without entering into details
yahoo music: Even worst, this is a top 40 site mostly.
allmusic: Absolutely inaccurate, I already corrected then 5 times, they don't mention Neo Prog, Prog Folk, only¨Progressive Rock and Prog Metal
cduniverse: Hey, this is a store, they don't care for anything but to sell, the less deep they get into things, the better for them
and other references like Encyclopedia Britannica (if they say something, no one can disagree, ): Enciclopaedia Brittanica as Wikipedia are only general resource sites, trust in especialized sites.
progressiverock.com mention them like progressive rock, prog/art-rock or art-rock: This is a nice little site called also Strawberry Bricks and it's mostly a timeline from 1967 to 1979 (Despíte their front page mentions 1968). Neo Prog, Anglagatrd, etc don't exist for them, it's a good place to find beautiful pictures of the album covers and short reviews of SOME albums they choose or the owner likes, butdespite that they also say about Days of Future Passed: Pretentious, of course, but one thing is certain, this wasn’t really rock-n-roll. Ultimately the Moody Blues wrote marginally psychedelic pop tunes.

All these mentioned references are reliable: Sorry, none of them is reloiable as a specialized Prog site.

All the record stores I go classify moody blues as progressive rock: Also here in Perú you can find STYX, Cat Stevens, Moody Blues, Yes, Genesis, ELP and King Crimson all in the Progressive Rock section, but this again means nothing.

Mercado Livre, the largest auction site in my country has the subdivision progressive rock and almost all moody blues products are under the progressive rock subdivision: Mercado Libre Punto Com (That's the full name) sells anything my friend, from a needle to a house, don't expect them to be specialized in anything.

Iván

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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 18 2006 at 16:40

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

akin wrote:

All these mentioned references are reliable: Sorry, none of them is reloiable as a specialized Prog site.

I don't think it is correct to rely only on "specialized prog" sites, because they share almost the same opinion because most are based on two or three other sites, mainly ProgArchives and GEPR and a closed group rule them. They are usually far more innacurate than sites which talk about music in general, because the latter ones are based upon common sense, not the opinion of few "prog specialists".

For example, if you pick the Hans Pokora book of vinyl for collectors include many Brazilian bands classified as prog and psych which are merely beat or worse because his Brazilian collaborator (I know him) sends him records according to his own taste. So beat albuns are considered progressive by the super-reliable source of Hans Pokora.

All the record stores I go classify moody blues as progressive rock: Also here in Perú you can find STYX, Cat Stevens, Moody Blues, Yes, Genesis, ELP and King Crimson all in the Progressive Rock section, but this again means nothing.

This means something very important. Excluding Cat Stevens, all these bands are always classified as prog here. So it is a almost a concensus that these bands are prog (sorry for using your statement ).

Mercado Livre, the largest auction site in my country has the subdivision progressive rock and almost all moody blues products are under the progressive rock subdivision: Mercado Libre Punto Com (That's the full name) sells anything my friend, from a needle to a house, don't expect them to be specialized in anything.

I know this, but they contribute to show what the opinion of the general public, not people who just because they own lots of progressive rock albuns they are specialists and their opinion is more accurate than the others' opinions.

Submarino is the biggest online store from my country and they classify moody blues as progressive: Online sties inclluding Submarino are quite right, all is Progressive, from The Moody Blues to Dream Theater, but there are degrees and sub-genres they don't care about, the first rule of a salesman is to be simple, if you explain, hey, STYX is considered Progressive Rock, but it's really a B class prog band in comparisonn with Yes, Genesis and King Crimson, they won't sell anything, they have to tell you only It's Progressive.

I think they would sell much more if they were classified as rock/pop, hard rock or classic rock. People who buys progressive know the bands they buy. No one will be induced to buy a Styx album just because Submarino classified them as progressive (you don't know the extent of the prejudice against prog rock in my country).

So there is no reason for me, for example to accept Moody Blues as a non-prog band: It's Proto Prog, in other wrds almost Prog, with a lot of elements but still not completely.

For me proto-prog would be ok if proto-prog were considered progressive rock. But the way the genre is treated on this site, it isn't ok for me.: The Moody Blues never evolved in a fully Prog band, they stayed in their sweet melodies only until 1980 with Long Distance Voyager, so they never went further than Proto Prog, at least until 1980.

In your own humble opinion. I can ask every person I know that knows Moody Blues and they will say that Days of Future Passed, In Search of the Lost Chord, On the Threshold of a Dream, To Our's Children's Children's Children, Question of Balance, Every Good Boy Deserves Favour, Seventh Sojourn and even Octave are more progressive than Long Distance Voyager. They will also say that the first seven I mentioned are full prog, while Long Distance Voyager is not.

Iván

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 19 2006 at 00:11

akin wrote:

If I'm checking history of Perú I will go to a Peruvian page, igf I'm studying Prog music I will go to a Progressive Rock site, because the people not only knows about Prog, but cares about it and digs into ythe mud to get info.

Most of the sites you mention copy their reviews and info from Allmusic.com a terribly inaccurate site (As I told you I corrected them at least 5 times and they silently verified the data and never mentioned a thing), useful to get an idea but their reviews show how little they know about Prog.

For example, if you pick the Hans Pokora book of vinyl for collectors include many Brazilian bands classified as prog and psych which are merely beat or worse because his Brazilian collaborator (I know him) sends him records according to his own taste. So beat albuns are considered progressive by the super-reliable source of Hans Pokora.

Please use reliable sites, check if they are members of the Progressive Rock Ring and after that check if Prog Archives, GEPR, Proggnosis, Progressor and Dutch Page mentions them becausze this sites are by far the most reliable.

This means something very important. Excluding Cat Stevens, all these bands are always classified as prog here. So it is a almost a concensus that these bands are prog (sorry for using your statement ).
Please man you and me know that most Record store owners know nothing about music, I've seen Mike Oldfield in Jazz, Peter Frampton, Richard Clayderman and Cat Stevens in Prog and Rick Wakeman in the classical section.

This stores are mostly big chains that hire kids who know nothing about music except a bit of Rap and top 40's just because they are cheap. In a store in Miami I won a CD for free that the kid who sold them had to pay because I asked for The Mamas and the Papas and the kid laughed, he said that this thing didn't existed and if I found one he would pay for it. I found 5 but only asked for one because didn't wanted to make him suffer but only to accept his responsabilities.

I know this, but they contribute to show what the opinion of the general public, not people who just because they own lots of progressive rock albuns they are specialists and their opinion is more accurate than the others' opinions.

Hey if you make a concert you just say Come and See Jethro Tull, the legendary Prog act. Nobody says Hey come to see Jethro Tull the Legendary partially Symphonic, partially Folk and who started as a Blues band act.

If you want to sell be generic and simple.

I think they would sell much more if they were classified as rock/pop, hard rock or classic rock. People who buys progressive know the bands they buy. No one will be induced to buy a Styx album just because Submarino classified them as progressive (you don't know the extent of the prejudice against prog rock in my country).

Yes,if you ask for:

An old top 40's album or
Classic Rock album or
AOR album or
POP album or
Progressive Rock album

A good salesman will take The Grand Illusion by STYX and will give oit to you, he will never stop to tell you it's a mixture, or bland Prog or complex POP or anything if you ask Pop or Prog he will sell you the same album.

Check Amazon most of the reviews are crap because they mostly include the kind reviews and one bad review if it's too obvious, their business is selling, not giving a class on music.

In your own humble opinion. I can ask every person I know that knows Moody Blues and they will say that Days of Future Passed, In Search of the Lost Chord, On the Threshold of a Dream, To Our's Children's Children's Children, Question of Balance, Every Good Boy Deserves Favour, Seventh Sojourn and even Octave are more progressive than Long Distance Voyager. They will also say that the first seven I mentioned are full prog, while Long Distance Voyager is not.

Then you must be a member of the Moody Blues Fan club because not any reliable Prog site considers them a full Prog band.

Iván

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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: August 20 2006 at 02:47

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Please man you and me know that most Record store owners know nothing about music, I've seen Mike Oldfield in Jazz, Peter Frampton, Richard Clayderman and Cat Stevens in Prog and Rick Wakeman in the classical section.

Iván

You break through an open door for how much pertains the Record Store, Ivan... Hugh that the chain of Music Store "Musical Box" (profit in Friuli Venezia Giulia and Veneto, North East of Italy) includes the Kraftwerk and Klaus Shulze in the box of the Electronic Music (with the House Music), the Tangerine Dream and Vangelis in the box of New Age, the Saga in the box of Heavy Metal and the Can in the box of the groups/ artists POP... To create a box of Progressive/ Art Rock was ask too much? Likely today likely today it is not quite clear thing is the Progressive/ Art Rock. That is it is a music that in every period changed the music. (Polyphonic Music is the Progressive music of Medieval Age!!! [for example...])

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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 20 2006 at 11:21

Iván

Sure? The record stores I´m talking about are those ruled by music "connaiseurs", who own enormous private collections of albuns and they are tuned with every source of music and music classifiers. Every old prog band I find in the progarchives they own at least one record of them and they know the mid-price of the album, all their discography, including guest appearances, original and re-releases, etc. This ones are more speciallists than me and you, and they do know what they are doing, because everytime I enter to a store like that, I see customers search for The Moody Blues in the Progressive Rock Shelf.

Big chains usually have rock/pop only. When I ask for some album, they simply search for alphabetical order.

Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 14:14

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 16:16

akin wrote:

¿Sure? The record stores I´m talking about are those ruled by music "connaiseurs", who own enormous private collections of albuns and they are tuned with every source of music and music classifiers. Every old prog band I find in the progarchives they own at least one record of them and they know the mid-price of the album, all their discography, including guest appearances, original and re-releases, etc. This ones are more speciallists than me and you, and they do know what they are doing, because everytime I enter to a store like that, I see customers search for The Moody Blues in the Progressive Rock Shelf.

Big chains usually have rock/pop only. When I ask for some album, they simply search for alphabetical order.

Again Akin, simplicity is the key forselling anything.

Most opeople except the lunatic obsessed as we don't care for Sub-Genres or categories, the average Prog listener before he joins a forum only worries fopr the word Progressive Rock.

But I'm sure if you ask those specialized owners (As we do ghere with the few we have) they will be able to goive you more advanced information.

Iván

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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 12:55

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

akin wrote:

Big chains usually have rock/pop only. When I ask for some album, they simply search for alphabetical order.

Again Akin, simplicity is the key forselling anything.

Most opeople except the lunatic obsessed as we don't care for Sub-Genres or categories, the average Prog listener before he joins a forum only worries fopr the word Progressive Rock.

But I'm sure if you ask those specialized owners (As we do ghere with the few we have) they will be able to goive you more advanced information.

Iván

Yes, and they recommend Moody Blues as a progressive rock in any level. They don't recommend lots of things classified as prog, but this is not the case with Moody Blues.

Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 14:02

Seyo wrote:

PROGRESSIVE ROCK by definition is NOT POP and has nothing to do with pop music. I am against any new categories like "progressive pop" (sounds contradictory) and even this prog-related is questionable. But I am also against PROGRESSIVE METAL, because it is IMHO only a modified form of heavy metal, which is NOT progressive rock. But who cares?

That's very shallow.

Pop(ular) just means exactly what it says. Whatever is popular amongst the largest musical target (Teenagers). When prog bands were popular they were in fact 'Pop'.

Prog is just a modified version of various classical/romantic/baroque ages of music. Pretty much every kind of music out there is a modified form of some other kind of music.

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Posted By: omri
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 16:19

This has become a discussion of the proginess of the moody blues so I am glad to say my un educated opinion that the moodies are definitely prog and I will support Maani's claim that they should classified as symphonic although I agree they are not full symphonic as Yes, Genesys or Talk talk (last 2 albums are probably more symphonic than any other album I know).

We should remember that the moodies were there at the very begining of prog and maybe did not make the first prog album (one thread few weeks ago claimed that PF's PATGOD was released 2-3 months before DOFP) but when they wrote their music they were exploring a totaly virgin area. They did create the first concept album and made a milestone of prog.

Personally I do not care much for exact definitions, knowing it is never 100% accurate. The line between true symphonic to ..... (let's say art rock) is vauge and in any case art rock here became an umbrella to unique bands (KC, VDGG), soft rock (early talk talk, BJH), complex / inteligent new wave (Sylvian, Eno) and many other bands that does not fit to any other sub-genre. So I can live with them concidered as proto prog (they are one of the bands who started it all unlike procol harum for an example that sounds proto prog but started while symphonic was released - ITCOTCK).

I would suggest all of us to stop arguing about classification and definitions since we never will totally agree. I agree with Ivan that only nuts like us that are obssesed with prog care about definitions but I feel it came to a point it is useless. However, for months I've been planning to suggest a different approach of how to easily get an idea about the style of music of a band and I feel this is the right time to make the effort to do it so I'll try post it realy soon.

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omri

Posted By: moodyxadi
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 20:25

Ok, this is a prog site. But who cares if The Moody Blues is Proto-prog or Symphonic if their music is brilliant? Everytime I see Genesis in the Top Ten of this site and read the prejudicial reviews about The Moodies I laugh to myself, because I really apreciatte the last one miles ahead than the archetipical prog band cited above. It's a matter of taste. The only ridiculous thing about the issue of this topic is the tentative of diminhing the artistic value of the Moody Blues using as measure their (no-)progressiveness. This is sooooooooooo pretentious ...

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Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante.