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Equality 7-2521 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
 Topic: Is the Middle East going to war?Posted: August 24 2006 at 13:32 |
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I really don't understand what you're saying here, I'm sorry. If you would rephrase I'd kindly respond.
Oh and my friend from Israel was telling me about how he was sitting in a park last weekend when a Hezbollah missle reigned from the sky and killed his niece and brother right in front of him.
And my friend from Lebanon called your friend a liar.
Anecdotal evidence is pointless, just don't bring it into the discussion. It can't be backed up and all it is, is a sob story meant to gain sympathy through emotions rather than appealing to a person's logic.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: August 24 2006 at 13:26 |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 24 2006 at 01:52 |
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What is 'keep civillian deaths low within reason'... Whose reason. Besides, if they dont care for the lebanese, then why have they suddenly garnished some more support than what they had. They had managed to democratically get a few of their number elected in the countries government. Also, they are now concentrating on 'winning the peace', by assisting - using charitable means - the people of Lebanon by assisting them financially (havent you heard the press about this, how dare they do this, the moneys probably from Iran...). Israel are, instead, maintaining its sea and air blockade of Lebanon, a violation of Resolution 1701, which calls for the “reopening airports and harbours” in Lebanon. Lebanon imports most of its fuel and food.
I have already spoken about the constituents of the dead and injured on both sides. Hezbollah has killed more millitary than civilian... one would think that millitary would be more difficult.
Lets just say that hizbillah have a stronger position among the people. If israelis become stronger after an attack, then why would anyone say that the Lebanese ppl would not.
And Dreamer... 'Everybody wants to kill the zionist... didnt you know', and yes, Im being scarcastic.
No, im not exonerating hizbillah, Im just trying to bring some balance to this arguement. I understand that you understand, but could you tell those like Equality.... My throat is getting parched.
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 24 2006 at 01:37 |
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Hezbollah dosent have millitary bases where it can store their weapons. Im not absolving their right to have them, however, what has occured in the past month would prove to them, more than ever, that there may just be a necessity for them. Also, Israel still have a large number of troops in Lebanon, and dont seem to be withdrawing them from the country any time soon.
If hezbollah tageted civilians, then why is the majority of deaths and injuries that had been caused by hezbullah consist of millitary personal. And why is the majority of deaths and injuries caused by the IDF consists of civilians. Also, to preempt you (pardon the pun) there has been israeli helicoptors firing flairs to detract hizbillah missiles from their targets. If hizbillah were soooo intent on attacking civilians, dont you think that they would get greater quality weapons to shoot down the helicopters... hang on, the technology they have are not as 'high tech' so that flairs would work on them, whereas, this consideration has already been made with Israeli weaponry, and they have the technology for those simple measures not to work....
Oh yeah, each time i watch the news and see a middle eastern news story, i tend to see more Israeli buildings hit by missile fire than i see Lebanese, or palestinian buildings.... Lots more. Even if there is only a hole in its side, as opposed to the complete destruction of the building. I have heard from a woman who lived in a villiage that was taken by the Israelis during this 'war', and she states that her house was commendeered, her husband and eldest son arrested, a tank driving thru their living room and the soldiers using the villagers as human shields so that they can get the ppl that they wanted. I know I dont expect you to believe me, and I probably wouldnt either if the person wasn't actually there... It is those pictures I dont see in these conflicts.
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 24 2006 at 01:19 |
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Im sorry Equality, I dont believe you went in with an open mind in the first place.
For a start: "Yes, both sides have civilian casualties, but this has little to do with genocide"... Err... What do you think Genocide is??? The Macquarie dictionary defines it as "Extermination of a national or racial group as a planned move"... This means civilians. Israel has it in its collective conscienceness that it is always under threat, but in this incidence, it has done most of the attacking. The battles have been waged on Lebanese soil, including air sorties, and naval blockades (the latter which, by the way, is still occuring - which is against the cease fire agreement officially signed in the united nations. Hizbillah has yet to break this truce - to date) while Israel has received missile attacks.
Coupled this with another line in your post, which is "cleric Safwat al-Higazi issued an edict calling on worshippers to kill “any Zionist anywhere in wartime”" Now, wartime is not all the time. Wartime means when one country is fighting with another... This comes complete with death and destruction... not just of lives, but of infrastructure and the manner to which one country chooses to subjegate another. The initial attack (in this conflict) occured when Hizbillah raided a military base. Israels response was to bomb cities (Beirut and Tyre in particular) and their infrastructure. They were a series of civilian targets. Also, it is true that prisoners of war are only to be held during wartime, yet Israel has, and still continues to hold thousands of Lebanese citizens for the crime of fighting Israel out of occupying the southern part of the country in the 1990's. It has been stated that holding POW's indicates that there is still hostile intentions against the nationality of those prisoners by the holders/gaolers.
Wow... you found a picture of some weaponary in the back seat of a car. Hmmm such explosive material just freely bouncing around on the road to Beirut (or to a hizbillah base). Have you considered that these things are... well... explosive. I know that suicide bombers are rife in the region, but these missiles etc has to get to their destination if they are going to be of any use. OK, just say that you are right. Israel has received missile strikes in retaliation for the missile strikes on Lebanon. Hizbillah had to get them from somewhere ehhh. So does Israel. Where did they get them from. God knows what would happen if hizbillah had hit a weapons manufacturing plant in Israel (its probably in an industrial area in a city if it is in the country at all). Or maybe they get them from overseas. Israel receives over $1billion US dollars in military aid from the US per year. Imagine if a hizballah rocket hit a ship, plane, or otherwise that was supplying israel with weapons, some of which landed on houses, and all but flattened villages in the south of the country.....
And then you speak of the "ridiculously fake photography schemes" that you speak of. You see, they dont need to do anything fake. Missiles were falling all around south lebanon at that time. It dosent take a lot of convincing to tell a local that these things kill people. You see, hizbillah are in Lebanon, and the lebanese ppl live in lebanon. Some of them have lost their homes and (dare i say it) members of their families. They dont actually need photos.
If you went in this debate with an open mind, you would find that there are a lot of aspects to this issue. It is very complex, and with all conflicts in the modern age, is filled with propoganda from ALL sides, not just the one that you seem to be against. You would not be pointing the finger and blaming one side in a black and white manner.
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005 Location: Amsterdam Status: Offline Points: 297 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 15:23 |
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^^^^ This is quite obvious, but just adding to what you said, the Israelis have done what they can to keep the death and injury toll of Lebanese civillians low (within reason of coure), while the Hizballah is doing everything it can to maximize israeli casualties.
Not only does the Hizballah want to kill as many "zionists" as possible, it also doesn't care for the Lebanese.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 14:43 |
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No, it's really not. Hezbollah purposefully puts its HQs in the basements of civilian buildings hoping that because of fear to kill civilians they won't be targeted. And if they are, they sell pictures of it to reporters and it reigns as a loss for the bombers who are now attacked with cries of unecessary civilian casualties. When has Israel stagged countless photographs of supposed bombed buildings and dead civilians.
Hezbollah directly targets civillains because it's a better tatical move for them. Their army isn't strong enough to defeat a westernized nation on the battlefield so they target the people and manipulate the media until the civilians of the democracies have had enough and demand an end to the war. Or in this case, the UN steps in allowing time for Hezbollah to regroup.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 14:35 |
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I spend about two hours a day reading about this issue. I went in with an open mind, and throughout the past month I've seen that there's only one side to be on. So yes now I am very one sided on this conflict.
I think which side is the genocidal killers is pretty obviouis. Yes both sides have civillain casualties but that has little to do with genoice. Hezbollah has vowed to destroy Israel. They have stated that they will either convert the entire world to Islam or die as martyrs. They give statements such as :
"On the eve of last week’s truce in the month-long war between Israel and Hezbollah, cleric Safwat al-Higazi issued an edict calling on worshippers to kill “any Zionist anywhere in wartime”."
They run ridiculous fake photography schemes to create a public outcry against Israel. And Israel has the incredibly evil hope of what? Surviving?
You seem a bit on sided on those reports of Israel bombing civillian cars. I can't find the picture right now, but about a week ago a their surfaced pictures of civillian cars bombed by Israel, containing anti-air missles and various other heavy artilery in the backseats.
Found one of them, damn those evil Zionist for precise strikes on civillian cars carrying defenseless civilians:
 Edited by Equality 7-2521 - August 23 2006 at 15:01 |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005 Location: Amsterdam Status: Offline Points: 297 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 11:26 |
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I agree with you about almost everything you said. Like I said in my first post on this thread, the Israeli government acted horribly wrong, and rushed to war in less then four hours. The problem is that many people in Israel have a paranoia that the whole world is against them, therefore when something happens it seems important to strike fast and hard. I was in Israel at the time, and it seemed like a sensible thing to do. It was said we would get rid of the Hizballah, bring safety and all that, the practice proved to be alot more difficult, hence the problems.
Many people asked, what else can we do? since the initial attack was unprovoked, it gives the impression the hizballah were just trying trying to test the new government (this was actually said by Nasrallah), and many Israelis saw a strong response with force the only way to make it not happen again. Obviously it doesn't work...
Ideally I agree with you that "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is a horrible tactic, and it is sad that not many people seem to have learned that yet.
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 10:13 |
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Yes it is complex, and we are dealing with the fanatics of both sides. My message was to 'balance' (for want of a better word) the arguement/discussion.
The reason why I quoted those figures is because of the supposition in this topic that Israel was defending. Remember, the whole thing apparently started when 2 soldiers were kidnapped from an Israeli military post. A number of ppl (all soldiers) got killed as well, but not a lot of ppl seemed to be concerned about that in the media that followed. The result was not to attack hizballah. They would not make a raid without being prepared. Israel has arguably one of the best spy networks in the world, and they would know just where hizballah was hiding.... But it was cities infrastructure, not military installations that were hit on the first few days. It just went on from there. All I can say is to see the deaths and injured on both sides, and to find how many of those were civilian.
The "fanatical genocidal" quote was a reply referring to a previous quote. I didnt mean it to be that Israel are evil, it is that I am saying that they are not good either.
...And saying that hisballah hide behind citizens... that is a tactic that every force, official or otherwise, use throughout the world. Long gone are the days where two armies traveled to a field and hammered each other to pieces... Flying leaflets over cities telling civillians to leave their homes because they are going to bomb it to the ground is not the best way to win friends and influence people. I dont regard that as any measures to minimise casualties... or hatred for that matter (ie future casualties). This is true for either side, and if israelis feel pissed for being hit by bombs, then its not a valid reason for doing the same. If we are going to hate the actions of one side, then, if the other side commits the same action, then they should recieve the same emotion. The 'who drew first blood' arguement dosent wash, im afraid.
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005 Location: Amsterdam Status: Offline Points: 297 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 08:54 |
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From the way I see it, the fanatical side is on the extremes of both sides, terrorists in Lebanon, and nationalistic obsessed Israelis on the other. Inbetween you will find most of the population (of both countries) is very sane, and simply wishes to live in peace. I just thought I'd clear my view.
Also, you are giving a lot of statistics making the Israelis seem like it is far more guilty then the Hizballah, but what do you suggest it would do? Any country in the world would strike back after being threatened. The israeli army is not bombing cities for fun, despite what you might think, it has actually done what it can to minimalize casualties, but that is quite difficult when there are terrorsts living in crowded appartment buildings. They hide in the crowds on purpose, to make Israel look bad, so people will accuse Israel. The Hizballah are not stupid, they know what the media covers and use it to thier advantage.
I don't want to justify Israel at all, I'm just trying to say it is very complex, and it is very hard to point a finger at one side alone...
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 08:41 |
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PS... I do agree that ppl will choose sides, regardless.
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 08:35 |
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Blacksword:
Maybe we see incidents like these differently. I feel that if i am to support an action made by a country, it would have to agree with my morals and the aspects of my upbringing that I personally agree with. Instead, I have a press telling me that there is an evil and a good when people are dying. Spin is not a positive aspect of moral, nor is it a justifyable reason to support a 'war'. In this conflict, for example, there is an extensive history (as you probably know) and there are still thousands of Lebanese 'prisoner of war' still languishing in Israli prisons from the previous time these two countries were in conflict... I can go on, but is there sence in it???
My point is that I will not support a war just because I am told that we are in one (or three, or sixteen). I feel that many wars that I have been told to support in the past few years have no justification, in fact nothing but international political jockeying, a great deal of deaths, and (some might say) corporate profit and/or a determination of power. Those noble causes of freedom, democracy, etc tend to fall flat on their face when such conflicts are scrutinised closely. However, if such action is worthy of support, then go for it... I personally dont think so.
I also refer to previous posts in this topic, where some contributers tend to absolve one side, almost completely, and wishing the destruction of another. I personally found that offensive (particularly) due to lack of research and the one-eyed supporting that is usually seen at the local footy match. People are getting killed. I cant support that - and I will show my least support for those that kill with least impunity. I cant support justifications either - you either did it or you didnt... you either attacked or you defended... it was either spontaneous or planned... Weapons were aimed at military or civilian infrastructure, and those ppl that were killed were civilians or soldiers.
For me, these things go into some of the things I believe as a human being. I may be a bit strong at times, but I believe I was brought up to be a good person (my parents did a good job)
 .Also, as far as us not being concerned about Dresden, or the nazis not being concerned about many centres of population.... That is called spin... whether it is spin that the 'others' are a threat, or that the 'others' need to be shown who is boss for what they did to us, etc.
Edited by edible_buddha - August 23 2006 at 08:40 |
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 08:06 |
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edible budduh:
It doesn't matter how many stats you throw at people; how many facts, how many appeals for people to consider that there is good and bad on both sides, most people and I do mean MOST people, will choose a side a stick to it. We are at war, and both sides have a powerful propoganda machine. At preasent ours is working overtime to ensure that the entire Arab/Muslim world is demonised in its entirity as our enemy. Our leaders need all the support from their people, they can get. It's thin on the ground, but growing. In WWII our media did not try to make us feel sorry for the people of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, even though they were just 'innocent civliians' In our eyes they were just the 'enemy' I'm sure the people of London, Coventry and Bristol were nothing more than enemy scum to the German people. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 07:21 |
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My my my...
Arnt we a one sided lot in this conflict
In a 50-page report titled Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon, the US-based Human Rights Watch organisation analysed two dozen cases in which 153 civilians, including 63 children, were killed in homes or motor vehicles by Israeli air strikes or artillery shelling. Releasing the report on August 3, HRW executive director Kenneth Roth said: “In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by [us], the location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hezbollah around ... Our research shows that Israel’s claim that Hezbollah fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel's indiscriminate warfare”, which by August 14 had cost the lives of at least 1130 Lebanese, including 1000 civilians. By that date, 156 Israelis, 116 of them soldiers, had been killed in the war. On August 11, the UN Human Rights Council approved a resolution that “strongly condemns the grave Israeli violations of human rights and breaches of international humanitarian law in Lebanon; also condemns massive bombardments of Lebanese civilian populations, especially the massacres in Qana, Marwaheen, Al Duweir, Al Bayadah, Al Qaa, Chiyah, Ghazieh and other towns of Lebanon and the displacement of one million civilians; further condemns the Israeli bombardment of vital civilian infrastructure resulting in extensive destruction and heavy damage to public and private properties”. This is just one example of many... So... who is the fanatical genocidal side... And for the lunatic who pleaded "Why didnt we plead (for the lunacy to end) when car bombs blew up israli civilians" (sorry for my spelling)... We did... and long before that too... As far back as 1947, when the Zionist organisation that would later form Israel demolished over 400 palestinian villiages of the face of the earth, displacing approx. 750000 people, the decendents of some of which are still in 'refugee' camps within palestine... As well as this, understand that Israel has had more UN resolutions made against it than any other country in the world (Saddams Iraq included)... and thats without those resolutions that the USA has vetoed. But hey... Theres always some justification... Isnt there... If a person is going to comment on events around the world, try finding more than one side. Edited by edible_buddha - August 23 2006 at 07:23 |
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 05:24 |
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..and perhaps, predictably, Irans power and influence in the region has increased as a direct result of our 'war on terror' The instability caused by our campaigns is leading to many countries in the region looking to Iran for leadership.
Iran, of course are the main sponsors and suppliers of Hezbollah, and will continue to be, until one side is annihilated. Israeli forces even reported that Hezbollah fighters were in possession of BRITISH MADE night vision goggles - amongother things, known to have been sold to Iran by Britain in very recent years. Channel 4 report What a mess.. Edited by Blacksword - August 23 2006 at 05:24 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 00:04 |
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^ Personally, I feel that westernized countries lack the leadership in the saturated political parties to win a war anymore. All are too concerned of media coverage and reelection to do what actually has to be done.
The international force is deteriorating even faster with Austraila, the smart ones, refusing to give troups to an army that they rightfully claim will be powerless to disarm Hezbollah, and the French refusing to give troups until the battlefield is proven to be safe. The cease-fire is already destroyed, and I doubt when reenacted in two weeks it will be anymore sucessful. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005 Location: Amsterdam Status: Offline Points: 297 |
Posted: August 22 2006 at 06:57 |
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Oh how I wish...
This war was one of the worst wars Israel has ever fought, and even though it is clear that the Lebanese suffered much more, Israel feels like it lost the war and for a good reason. Nothing has been achived other then death of civillians and resources wasted. The Hizballah are still strong and armed, and the arab world gained a load of confidence by proving that Israel is not invincible. The cease fire will last untill Hizballah gains enough new weapons and is stronger, it may take a couple of years, but this is not the end of this war. I very much doubt an international force will achive anything effective... It does look horriblly pessimistic from the Israeli side... Well, just my thoughts.
EDIT: I almost forgot, the kidnapped soldiers will now be released by negotiations in return for Lebanese (war and terror) prisoners. This is truly disgraceful, that after so much suffering they should do what they vowed not to do at the beginning, as if the whole war never took place. I wouldn't be surprised if the government should lose it's support and there will be a re-election. Edited by Dreamer - August 22 2006 at 07:09 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: August 21 2006 at 15:22 |
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^ That doesn't upset me too much. As long as it's the fanatical, genocidal side. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: August 21 2006 at 05:17 |
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^ Both sides have, in fact technically broken the ceasefire already. Hezbollah a week ago, and Israel yesterday I believe.
There will not be peace in the ME until one side is killed off in its entirity. 
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Is the Middle East going to war?
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edible_buddha wrote: