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Bob Greece 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 1823 |
 Posted: July 28 2006 at 04:54 |
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I don't think it was ever really about 2 solidiers. It was about getting rid of Hezbollah. Using the kidnappings as an excuse just makes them look ridiculous.
That's right. How can you bomb your way to peace? I can just imagine how angry many Lebanese will feel, particularly those who've losted loved ones. I don't think they'll be in the mood for peace now. Edited by Bob Greece - July 28 2006 at 05:02 |
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Bob Greece
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 1823 |
Posted: July 28 2006 at 05:10 |
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There's a good analysis of the situation on the BBC today:
This war will never end...
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: July 30 2006 at 04:39 |
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Another massacre by Israel. Up to 50 people were killed in strikes on the town of Qana. 20 of the victims were apparently children. According to the UN 600 Lebanese and 51 Israelis have now been killed.
Condoleeza Rice has cancelled her planned trip to Lebanon, as the Lebanese PM has called for an immediate and 'unconditional' ceasefire. BBC Report Edited by Blacksword - July 30 2006 at 04:39 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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pirkka
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: December 06 2005 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 191 |
Posted: July 30 2006 at 14:36 |
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SOMEBODY HAS TO STOP THE UNJUST OR WHATEVER KILLING IN THE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!
Pirkka
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JrKASperov
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 07 2004 Status: Offline Points: 904 |
Posted: July 30 2006 at 15:14 |
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Why didn't you say that when suicide bombers we're killing Israelians every day?
EDIT: Haha, Isra-alians.  Edited by JrKASperov - July 30 2006 at 15:15 |
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Epic.
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rushfan6588
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 202 |
Posted: July 31 2006 at 20:53 |
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i think everything will remain under reasonable control unless Syria mobilizes troops...if that happens all hell is gonna break loose
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If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: August 01 2006 at 05:16 |
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^ and they probably wont do that unless seriously provoked. Israel did fly fighter jets over the Syrian leaders residence a few weeks back, but Syria know that it's best to avoid a scrap with Israel if they can. Israel have tried to provoke them, as this would give Israel an excuse to 'wipe Syria off the map' Syria know Israel would kick their arse all round the block, so they'll be trying to keep their heads down.
That said Syria (and Iran) are right behind Hezbollah, so Israel arguably already has the reasons to attack. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: August 18 2006 at 08:58 |
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Sorry to resurect this old chesnut..
The ceasfire seems to be holding..for now. The Israeli army is dispondant, the Israeli government under pressure from its people to deliver the goods, and Hezbollah claiming a victory. Well, Israel have failed to disable them, and no doubt they are regrouping and re-arming as we speak. However, this goes to show two things; terrorists can not be defeated in the battlefield, and terrorists dont give a rats arse about their innocent fellow countrymen dying all around them. Will the peacekeeps bring this under control or find themselves locked in guerilla warfare with Hezbollah? The Lebanese army are to be deployed in the south, but is it inevitable they will end up fighting Hezbollah directly? Perhaps this is the idea. Israel will then be able to free up resources to fry the bigger fish in Iran and/or Syria. Just a thought.. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: August 18 2006 at 13:42 |
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The ability of the peacekeeping force to disarm Hezbollah I seriously doubt. Now to be able to control the situation for now I feel they could be pretty sucessful, but Hezbollah will only take the time the peacekeeping force is there to regroup, rearm, and rebuild their infrastructure. Israel is greatly at loss in this situation. Hezbollah accepted the ceasefire for one reason, they were losing and needed time before they were strong enough to defeat Israel. It's a strategy encouraged by the Koran. They will break the ceasefire as soon as they are fit. I even have doubts about this large peacekeeping force promised existing anymore. France is getting cold feet and the rather large deployment of troops they promised is now being withdrawn saying their support will be mostly symbollic. And the idea of having Germans keeping peace between the jews and Hezbollah I think makes everyone at least alittle nervous.
Edit: If the Germans make me a little nervous this makes me geniunely afraid:
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - August 18 2006 at 13:56 |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: August 21 2006 at 05:17 |
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^ Both sides have, in fact technically broken the ceasefire already. Hezbollah a week ago, and Israel yesterday I believe.
There will not be peace in the ME until one side is killed off in its entirity. 
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: August 21 2006 at 15:22 |
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^ That doesn't upset me too much. As long as it's the fanatical, genocidal side. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005 Location: Amsterdam Status: Offline Points: 297 |
Posted: August 22 2006 at 06:57 |
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Oh how I wish...
This war was one of the worst wars Israel has ever fought, and even though it is clear that the Lebanese suffered much more, Israel feels like it lost the war and for a good reason. Nothing has been achived other then death of civillians and resources wasted. The Hizballah are still strong and armed, and the arab world gained a load of confidence by proving that Israel is not invincible. The cease fire will last untill Hizballah gains enough new weapons and is stronger, it may take a couple of years, but this is not the end of this war. I very much doubt an international force will achive anything effective... It does look horriblly pessimistic from the Israeli side... Well, just my thoughts.
EDIT: I almost forgot, the kidnapped soldiers will now be released by negotiations in return for Lebanese (war and terror) prisoners. This is truly disgraceful, that after so much suffering they should do what they vowed not to do at the beginning, as if the whole war never took place. I wouldn't be surprised if the government should lose it's support and there will be a re-election. Edited by Dreamer - August 22 2006 at 07:09 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 00:04 |
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^ Personally, I feel that westernized countries lack the leadership in the saturated political parties to win a war anymore. All are too concerned of media coverage and reelection to do what actually has to be done.
The international force is deteriorating even faster with Austraila, the smart ones, refusing to give troups to an army that they rightfully claim will be powerless to disarm Hezbollah, and the French refusing to give troups until the battlefield is proven to be safe. The cease-fire is already destroyed, and I doubt when reenacted in two weeks it will be anymore sucessful. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 05:24 |
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..and perhaps, predictably, Irans power and influence in the region has increased as a direct result of our 'war on terror' The instability caused by our campaigns is leading to many countries in the region looking to Iran for leadership.
Iran, of course are the main sponsors and suppliers of Hezbollah, and will continue to be, until one side is annihilated. Israeli forces even reported that Hezbollah fighters were in possession of BRITISH MADE night vision goggles - amongother things, known to have been sold to Iran by Britain in very recent years. Channel 4 report What a mess.. Edited by Blacksword - August 23 2006 at 05:24 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 07:21 |
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My my my...
Arnt we a one sided lot in this conflict
In a 50-page report titled Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon, the US-based Human Rights Watch organisation analysed two dozen cases in which 153 civilians, including 63 children, were killed in homes or motor vehicles by Israeli air strikes or artillery shelling. Releasing the report on August 3, HRW executive director Kenneth Roth said: “In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by [us], the location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hezbollah around ... Our research shows that Israel’s claim that Hezbollah fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel's indiscriminate warfare”, which by August 14 had cost the lives of at least 1130 Lebanese, including 1000 civilians. By that date, 156 Israelis, 116 of them soldiers, had been killed in the war. On August 11, the UN Human Rights Council approved a resolution that “strongly condemns the grave Israeli violations of human rights and breaches of international humanitarian law in Lebanon; also condemns massive bombardments of Lebanese civilian populations, especially the massacres in Qana, Marwaheen, Al Duweir, Al Bayadah, Al Qaa, Chiyah, Ghazieh and other towns of Lebanon and the displacement of one million civilians; further condemns the Israeli bombardment of vital civilian infrastructure resulting in extensive destruction and heavy damage to public and private properties”. This is just one example of many... So... who is the fanatical genocidal side... And for the lunatic who pleaded "Why didnt we plead (for the lunacy to end) when car bombs blew up israli civilians" (sorry for my spelling)... We did... and long before that too... As far back as 1947, when the Zionist organisation that would later form Israel demolished over 400 palestinian villiages of the face of the earth, displacing approx. 750000 people, the decendents of some of which are still in 'refugee' camps within palestine... As well as this, understand that Israel has had more UN resolutions made against it than any other country in the world (Saddams Iraq included)... and thats without those resolutions that the USA has vetoed. But hey... Theres always some justification... Isnt there... If a person is going to comment on events around the world, try finding more than one side. Edited by edible_buddha - August 23 2006 at 07:23 |
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 08:06 |
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edible budduh:
It doesn't matter how many stats you throw at people; how many facts, how many appeals for people to consider that there is good and bad on both sides, most people and I do mean MOST people, will choose a side a stick to it. We are at war, and both sides have a powerful propoganda machine. At preasent ours is working overtime to ensure that the entire Arab/Muslim world is demonised in its entirity as our enemy. Our leaders need all the support from their people, they can get. It's thin on the ground, but growing. In WWII our media did not try to make us feel sorry for the people of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, even though they were just 'innocent civliians' In our eyes they were just the 'enemy' I'm sure the people of London, Coventry and Bristol were nothing more than enemy scum to the German people. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 08:35 |
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Blacksword:
Maybe we see incidents like these differently. I feel that if i am to support an action made by a country, it would have to agree with my morals and the aspects of my upbringing that I personally agree with. Instead, I have a press telling me that there is an evil and a good when people are dying. Spin is not a positive aspect of moral, nor is it a justifyable reason to support a 'war'. In this conflict, for example, there is an extensive history (as you probably know) and there are still thousands of Lebanese 'prisoner of war' still languishing in Israli prisons from the previous time these two countries were in conflict... I can go on, but is there sence in it???
My point is that I will not support a war just because I am told that we are in one (or three, or sixteen). I feel that many wars that I have been told to support in the past few years have no justification, in fact nothing but international political jockeying, a great deal of deaths, and (some might say) corporate profit and/or a determination of power. Those noble causes of freedom, democracy, etc tend to fall flat on their face when such conflicts are scrutinised closely. However, if such action is worthy of support, then go for it... I personally dont think so.
I also refer to previous posts in this topic, where some contributers tend to absolve one side, almost completely, and wishing the destruction of another. I personally found that offensive (particularly) due to lack of research and the one-eyed supporting that is usually seen at the local footy match. People are getting killed. I cant support that - and I will show my least support for those that kill with least impunity. I cant support justifications either - you either did it or you didnt... you either attacked or you defended... it was either spontaneous or planned... Weapons were aimed at military or civilian infrastructure, and those ppl that were killed were civilians or soldiers.
For me, these things go into some of the things I believe as a human being. I may be a bit strong at times, but I believe I was brought up to be a good person (my parents did a good job)
 .Also, as far as us not being concerned about Dresden, or the nazis not being concerned about many centres of population.... That is called spin... whether it is spin that the 'others' are a threat, or that the 'others' need to be shown who is boss for what they did to us, etc.
Edited by edible_buddha - August 23 2006 at 08:40 |
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 08:41 |
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PS... I do agree that ppl will choose sides, regardless.
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005 Location: Amsterdam Status: Offline Points: 297 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 08:54 |
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From the way I see it, the fanatical side is on the extremes of both sides, terrorists in Lebanon, and nationalistic obsessed Israelis on the other. Inbetween you will find most of the population (of both countries) is very sane, and simply wishes to live in peace. I just thought I'd clear my view.
Also, you are giving a lot of statistics making the Israelis seem like it is far more guilty then the Hizballah, but what do you suggest it would do? Any country in the world would strike back after being threatened. The israeli army is not bombing cities for fun, despite what you might think, it has actually done what it can to minimalize casualties, but that is quite difficult when there are terrorsts living in crowded appartment buildings. They hide in the crowds on purpose, to make Israel look bad, so people will accuse Israel. The Hizballah are not stupid, they know what the media covers and use it to thier advantage.
I don't want to justify Israel at all, I'm just trying to say it is very complex, and it is very hard to point a finger at one side alone...
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edible_buddha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 16 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
Posted: August 23 2006 at 10:13 |
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Yes it is complex, and we are dealing with the fanatics of both sides. My message was to 'balance' (for want of a better word) the arguement/discussion.
The reason why I quoted those figures is because of the supposition in this topic that Israel was defending. Remember, the whole thing apparently started when 2 soldiers were kidnapped from an Israeli military post. A number of ppl (all soldiers) got killed as well, but not a lot of ppl seemed to be concerned about that in the media that followed. The result was not to attack hizballah. They would not make a raid without being prepared. Israel has arguably one of the best spy networks in the world, and they would know just where hizballah was hiding.... But it was cities infrastructure, not military installations that were hit on the first few days. It just went on from there. All I can say is to see the deaths and injured on both sides, and to find how many of those were civilian.
The "fanatical genocidal" quote was a reply referring to a previous quote. I didnt mean it to be that Israel are evil, it is that I am saying that they are not good either.
...And saying that hisballah hide behind citizens... that is a tactic that every force, official or otherwise, use throughout the world. Long gone are the days where two armies traveled to a field and hammered each other to pieces... Flying leaflets over cities telling civillians to leave their homes because they are going to bomb it to the ground is not the best way to win friends and influence people. I dont regard that as any measures to minimise casualties... or hatred for that matter (ie future casualties). This is true for either side, and if israelis feel pissed for being hit by bombs, then its not a valid reason for doing the same. If we are going to hate the actions of one side, then, if the other side commits the same action, then they should recieve the same emotion. The 'who drew first blood' arguement dosent wash, im afraid.
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I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Is the Middle East going to war?
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stonebeard wrote: