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Mandrakeroot View Drop Down

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Topic: Prog Related list:
Posted: August 16 2006 at 09:40

I noted that a lot they do not accept the "Prog Related" definition. Well then I believe that, at least for the more POP band, is better to renamed this list "POP Progressive" and to move the other band in the Prog Metal or Art Rock lists.

It does though of it?

Raff

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Posted: August 16 2006 at 09:47

Many of us agree with the 'progressive pop' definition for bands like, for instance, 10 cc or Roxy Music (which were not so pop in the beginning, but became more so towards the end of their career). As to the others, I tend to agree with you - however, I think in that case there would be the need for some subsections within each genre.

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Posted: August 16 2006 at 10:11

My opinion is that Prog Related ought to be removed altogether, and those Progressive Pop bands proggish enough should be moved to a category of their own.

MajesterX

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Posted: August 16 2006 at 10:48

I don't think so. Many of the bands are not pop, but rock. It would be misleading to label these bands progressive pop, because they are not progressive bands.

The whole (useless) point of prog related is to put in bands that are not quite prog, but close. Progressive pop, the concept and name itself, demeans prog, because it's the opposite of prog.

I agree Prog Related should be deleted, or at least renamed Prog-Influenced or Non-Prog. Proto-prog can stay, as it conatins bands that influenced and started the prog scene ie Moody Blues, the Beatles, Procol Harum.

maani

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Posted: August 16 2006 at 18:59

As always, trying to fritch the categories will result in subjective feelings about who belongs where. Personally, I agree that "prog-related" is far too vague. However, if I were choosing "who goes where" (which I am not, since that is the exclusive purview of the webmasters), there are many changes I would make.

I would definitely add a "progressive pop" category, but the bands I would include in that would be 10CC, Supertramp, Styx, Queen, Roxy Music, Klaatu, and a few others. (I would also add XTC to the site and put them there as well).

I would also re-assess the "art rock" category, since I feel it does not accurately classify some, if not many, of the groups in it.

I would also re-classify some "proto-prog" bands to other categories: most clearly, The Moody Blues are not "proto-prog"; they are the first true symphonic prog band, and that is where they belong.

Those are just a very few of the things i would do if I were king...LOL

Peace.

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Posted: August 16 2006 at 23:23

maani wrote:

As always, trying to fritch the categories will result in subjective feelings about who belongs where. Personally, I agree that "prog-related" is far too vague. However, if I were choosing "who goes where" (which I am not, since that is the exclusive purview of the webmasters), there are many changes I would make.

Pop Prog is a natural contradiction, Prog Related is a fancier name for the bands that are mainstream (Or close to it) but with some relation to Progressive Rock.

I would also re-assess the "art rock" category, since I feel it does not accurately classify some, if not many, of the groups in it.

Already made a new tentative definition for Art Rock in the Collaborators section, but seems except the other two horsepeople there's not much interest.

I would also re-classify some "proto-prog" bands to other categories: most clearly, The Moody Blues are not "proto-prog"; they are the first true symphonic prog band, and that is where they belong.

The Moody Blues Symphonic Maani?

They started as a Psyche/Proto Prog band and became more and more commercial with the pass of the years, in the early 70's they were doing mainstream in comparison with the early Symphonic bands.

Only when Patrick Moraz joined them (And because Prog was in decadence in the 80's) they became Progger than most bands releasing the excellent Long Distance Voyager.

Days of Future Passed is only a collection of soft songs (Easilly changed by the same Moody Blues in hit singles) with an artificial orchestral intro and coda.

Those are just a very few of the things i would do if I were king...LOL

Thanks Heaven this is not a monarchy

Iván

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Posted: August 17 2006 at 06:05

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

~~Pop Prog is a natural contradiction, Prog Related is a fancier name for the bands that are mainstream (Or close to it) but with some relation to Progressive Rock.~~

~~I would also re-assess the "art rock" category, since I feel it does not accurately classify some, if not many, of the groups in it.~~

~~Already made a new tentative definition for Art Rock in the Collaborators section, but seems except the other two horsepeople there's not much interest.~~

I would also re-classify some "proto-prog" bands to other categories: most clearly, The Moody Blues are not "proto-prog"; they are the first true symphonic prog band, and that is where they belong.

The Moody Blues Symphonic Maani?

They started as a Psyche/Proto Prog band and became more and more commercial with the pass of the years, in the early 70's they were doing mainstream in comparison with the early Symphonic bands.

Only when Patrick Moraz joined them (And because Prog was in decadence in the 80's) they became Progger than most bands releasing the excellent Long Distance Voyager.

Days of Future Passed is only a collection of soft songs (Easilly changed by the same Moody Blues in hit singles) with an artificial orchestral intro and coda.

Those are just a very few of the things i would do if I were king...LOL

Thanks Heaven this is not a monarchy

Iván

It would be able also to be true how much account. Nevertheless The Moody Blies use by a lot of discs of the 70's the Mellotron to replace the orchestra because the orchestra had a superior cost (and for this that the Mellotron was invented). Their music certainly was POP but with an office of innovation that cannot do member The Moody Blues to the POP scene but, rather, to the Progressive scene. That then they have begun likr beat band... Also PFM (with the "I Quelli" name), Le Orme and New Trolls began playing Beat. But no it puts in doubt that they be Prog bands. A speech seems me, the yours, more suitable to the Procol harum, in any case.

Tristan Mulders View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2006 at 07:53

Why move bands that are by definition NOT prog bands to prog metal??? A genre that IS prog?

nuff said

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akin

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Posted: August 17 2006 at 12:00

Well, I think prog related is a valid category, but should be somewhat refactored.

I see prog related as a category were we could put interesting albuns/bands for prog fans made by non-prog bands. The problem is redefining prog rock by the use of this category. Prog Pop is not a bad idea as far as it has bands like Supertramp, which were always considered progressive (art-rock) , and classify them as prog rock, not prog-related (which means non-prog).

Talking about prog and non-prog, Proto-prog is a bad definition as far as it contains bands considered prog for most of the progressive rock references and bands considered non-prog.

maani

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Posted: August 17 2006 at 13:42

Ivan:

I went back and looked at the definition of "Symphonic Prog." I guess the problem is that I disagree with it. In fact, according to your definition, Jethro Tull should be classified as Symphonic Prog since they probably used more actual, true classical influences than any other prog band, including Yes or Genesis. Indeed, based on the entire list of criteria of "Symphonic Prog" - and particularly your special note about influences - Jethro Tull is definitely Symphonic Prog; to call them "Prog Folk" is, at best, to "overvalue" their folk influences (which are certainly there), and, at worst, to demean them by rejecting their broad, consistent and obvious classical influences.

Peace.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 17 2006 at 16:05

maani wrote:

Ivan:

Peace.

Well Maani, it's easy to disagree with a definition that has improved the one existing, it's not perfect but is the more accurate that you can get and we did it becaue it needed to be changed.

No genre is 100% accurate, Genesis has also a touch of Folk, Kansas has Hard Rock and Country Music, Aphrodite's Child is in Folk but could easily be in Symphonic also, this is a case by case decision.

If we are wrong in something is because we try to do something, only those who dare to make changes can faill sometimes, something not too hard in art, a discipline that has no 100% exact rules. Yes, Jethro Tull could be in Symphonic or even better in Art Rock, but the choice is Folk and that you would have to talk with Sean.

The old two lines definition of Symphonic that said nothing was since the beginning to this year and after consulting with the Collaborators I made the change that nobody did before, I took the risk and accept the consequences, now it can be improved but there are many things to change like the Art Rock definition, something that again I'm already trying to start with a pre definitions to receive feedback.

We placed this definition (When you were not in the forum) in the Collaborators zone for a while and there were no objections, by the contrary most members (Including one of the owners who sent me a PM) agreed it was a great improvement from the previous.

Now to the issue:

There are bands like Jethro Tull that have two or more influences and we have to choose one Renaissance IMO is as close to folk as Jethro Tull but Jethro is considered an Icon of Folk.

There's something important also, Jethro Tull has a clear Pastoral atmosphere in each and every album (Except the first two ones that are closer to Blues which BTW is an ethnic expression of USA derivative of Jazz).

Songs from the Woods and Heavy Horses are 100% Folk and even those albums that are inspired in Classical Music are influenced by Medieval Classical, which is exactly the point of musical history that divides Classical (In a broad sense) from Trouvadoresque Folkloric.

So I believe that Jethro Tull is OK where it is, some people are talking of changing them to Art Rock, but I beliecve they have such a unique Pastoral and Bucolic sound that the Folk influence must be protected over the rest.

Now, don't blame Symphonic for The Moody Blues, this Proto Prog decision was taken by M@X and Prog Lucky and I agree with them, most site in the Progressive Net includes Moody Blues as Proto Prog, Psyche or even POP mainstream:

[quote ]I've been a Moodies fan for years, but I rarely discuss them in a progressive forum like this one. That's because while a lot of fans of symphonic prog rock love the Moodies, very few would say that their music is progressive in the sense of Yes or Genesis. And because of the nature of the band's more recent output, most people consider them more of a radio-ready adult-contemporary group, and I'm likely to get bounced all the way to rec.music.misc. The band's roots are firmly R&B. The initial line-up (Denny Laine (gtr/vox), Clint Warwick (bass), Graeme Edge (perc), Mike Pinder (keys/vox), and Ray Thomas (sax/flutes/vox)) recorded a bunch of R&B stuff, including one hit called "Go Now." When Laine and Warwick left and Justin Hayward (guitar/vocals) and John Lodge (bass/vocals) joined up, things changed considerably. They recorded their first (and probably most progressive) album (Days...) with the London Festival Orchestra. Edge's poetry, Hayward's vocals, Thomas' flute, and the full orchestra backing gave the album a lush, warm feel. This is also one of the band's most accessible albums, appealing to fans of prog, classical, psychedelia, soft rock, and classic rock. But the overriding "progressiveness" of recording with an orchestra (well, it was progressive then!) tagged the Moodies as a prog rock band, even though all of their subsequent albums were only marginally progressive, at best.

http://www.gepr.net/mofram.html

[/quote]

It's almost a concensus they are barely Prog, and nobody outside or insude PA believes they are Symphonic.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 17 2006 at 16:15

akin

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Posted: August 17 2006 at 17:20

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

maani wrote:

Ivan:

Peace.

Well Maani, it's easy to disagree with a definition that has improved the one existing, it's not perfect but is the more accurate that you can get and we did it becaue it needed to be changed.

Now to the issue:

There are bands like Jethro Tull that have two or more influences and we have to choose one Renaissance IMO is as close to folk as Jethro Tull but Jethro is considered an Icon of Folk.

http://www.gepr.net/mofram.html

It's almost a concensus they are barely Prog, and nobody outside or insude PA believes they are Symphonic.

Iván

[/QUOTE]

I disagree with you. There is no consensus as you say. If you search other sources, many progressive rock sites consider Moody Blues just a Progressive Rock Band (as they have been called for many years, along with Supertramp until some people on the internet decided to change de definition of progressive rock according to their own tastes -> not talking about you, Ivan, but about some places where they state their own tastes as the complete truth and then others use them as reference).
Maybe not Symphonic, but probably art-rock or even folk prog, as they have many folkish influences.

Edited by akin - August 17 2006 at 17:55

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 18 2006 at 00:32

akin wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It's almost a concensus they are barely Prog, and nobody outside or insude PA believes they are Symphonic.

Iván

I disagree with you. There is no consensus as you say.

Hi Akin, I am very careful with my words (Something I learned as a lawyer ), I said ALMOST a concensus, in other words in most RELIABLE Prog sites, the Moody Blues are considered Proto Prog or barely Prog.

If you search other sources, many progressive rock sites consider Moody Blues just a Progressive Rock Band (as they have been called for many years, along with Supertramp until some people on the internet decided to change de definition of progressive rock according to their own tastes -> not talking about you, Ivan, but about some places where they state their own tastes as the complete truth and then others use them as reference).

And I dare to say that because for our work with Symphonic I chacke (As Raffaella and Micky) most of the most important Prog sites that are really 4 or 5 besides Prog Archive (GEPR, Proggnosis, Progressive Ears, Dutch Progressive Web and Progressor), the other sites may be good but not in the level of the aforementioned.

GEPR: Already copied their opinion and they say Moody Blues are MARGINALLY PROG AT THE BEST.

Proggnosis: Considers them Art Rock, but Proggnoisis stays with an older definition of Art Rocjk that says: Overall Description: The anchors of this sub-genre are those mid-70’s bands that were not at that time considered strictly or at all prog - Roxy Music, 10cc, Alan Parsons, Be Bop Deluxe etc. Under modern standards they clearly are prog/art rock. Bands that currently play similar music - pop with an artistic flavour - fall into this sub-genre.....In other words not strictly Prog

Progressor only reviews those bands that they consider 100% Prog and they don't care about the Moody Blues enough to review them but compares this band in other reviews about early Proto Kw with Poppuy Alan Parsoins Project..

Progressive Ears: Considers them Psychedelia oriented towards Symphonic, in good English...Proto Prog.

DPRP (Dutch Progressive Rock Page) doesn't include The Moody Blues in their reviews section and they include thousands of bands.

Just in case I checked other reliable sites:

GNOSIS and they don't mention The Moody Blues
Proggressive World Net: Neither
ProgNaut: Doesn't review any Moody Blues album.

But of course this last three sites are not as reliable IMHO, even though they don't even care about The Moody Blues.

So again, at least in the main sites it's almost a concensus that Moody Blues are at the most Proto Prog.

Maybe not Symphonic, but probably art-rock or even folk prog, as they have many folkish influences.

Symphonic no way, if you read our definition of Proto Prog, there's no other place for them:

Proto Prog: Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development of progressive rock. The late 60's was a predominately experimental period for music. These bands were moving in a stream that eventually led to prog. The influence could have come from new sophisticated forms of writing and playing music, recording techniques, new instruments and vocal harmonies to name a few. Some of these bands became progressive rock bands themselves others did not.

The definition is clear as water, if the Moody Blues are not Proto Prog, then Proto Prog doesn't exist.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 18 2006 at 00:34

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: August 18 2006 at 01:54

Wasn't there a poll awhile back suggesting they be moved to symphonic where the idea was crushed by an overwhelming margin?

Edited by Equality 7-2521 - August 18 2006 at 01:54

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Posted: August 18 2006 at 03:13

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^

Wasn't there a poll awhile back suggesting they be moved to symphonic where the idea was crushed by an overwhelming margin?

Sadly that poll was terribly done (Sorry Mandrakeroot, but if you keep inventing sub-genres no poll is valid) I recommend to use real sub-genres, Beat Prog, Symphonic Pop and Symphonic Proto Prog just don't exist:

Poll Question: Which is really Moody Blues sub genre?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Beat Prog	2	[6.06%]
Symphonic Proto Prog	17	[51.52%]
Symphonic POP	6	[18.18%]
Other	8	[24.24%]

But at the end that's pretty exact, it's Proto Prog rooted in pre symphonic.

Cr*p got mixed already.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 18 2006 at 03:16

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Posted: August 18 2006 at 06:21

10CC England - ???????????
AMBER LIGHT, THE Germany - Psychedelic/Space Rock

ANDERSON, JON England

ASIA England - yes

BARRETT, SYD England - Psychedelic/Space rock

BUSH, KATE England - ????????????

ELECTRIC LIGHT ORCHESTRA England

FAIRPORT CONVENTION England

GABRIEL, PETER England - Art Rock

GILMOUR, DAVID England

MAGNUM England - ???????????

MANZANERA, PHIL England
MASON, NICK England

MASTERPLAN Multi-National - ??????????????????You mean that power-metal c**p with clished pompous music?..

MUSE England - ???????????

PARSONS BAND, ALAN England
PARSONS PROJECT, ALAN England - Psychedelic/Space rock or Art-Rock

PHISH United States - ???????????

PRIMUS United States

QUEEN England - Art-rock

ROXY MUSIC England - Art-rock

RUTHERFORD, MIKE England

SAGA Canada - ????????????????????????????????

SINFIELD, PETER England

STYX United States - ???????????????????????????????????????????

SUPER FURRY ANIMALS Wales

VAI, STEVE United States - ????????

WETTON, JOHN England

WISHBONE ASH England - hard-rock

WRIGHT, RICHARD England

Seyo

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Posted: August 18 2006 at 06:45

PROGRESSIVE ROCK by definition is NOT POP and has nothing to do with pop music. I am against any new categories like "progressive pop" (sounds contradictory) and even this prog-related is questionable. But I am also against PROGRESSIVE METAL, because it is IMHO only a modified form of heavy metal, which is NOT progressive rock. But who cares?

Tristan Mulders View Drop Down

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Posted: August 18 2006 at 06:47

OMG the horriblly annoying post layouts are back Ouch

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Mandrakeroot View Drop Down

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Posted: August 18 2006 at 10:08

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^

Wasn't there a poll awhile back suggesting they be moved to symphonic where the idea was crushed by an overwhelming margin?

Poll Question: Which is really Moody Blues sub genre?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Beat Prog	2	[6.06%]
Symphonic Proto Prog	17	[51.52%]
Symphonic POP	6	[18.18%]
Other	8	[24.24%]

But at the end that's pretty exact, it's Proto Prog rooted in pre symphonic.

Cr*p got mixed already.

Iván

For how much it pertains the SYMPHONIC POP style it came used before ITCOKC to indicate the groups (really) Proto Prog.

I should say that I am more all right to consider Prog the THE MOODY BLUES and the WISHBONE ASH rather that the QUEEN, SUPERTRAMP or ALAN PARSONS!!!

akin

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Posted: August 18 2006 at 15:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

akin wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It's almost a concensus they are barely Prog, and nobody outside or insude PA believes they are Symphonic.

Iván

I disagree with you. There is no consensus as you say.

GEPR: Already copied their opinion and they say Moody Blues are MARGINALLY PROG AT THE BEST.
Proggnosis: Considers them Art Rock, but Proggnoisis stays with an older definition of Art Rocjk that says: Overall Description: The anchors of this sub-genre are those mid-70’s bands that were not at that time considered strictly or at all prog - Roxy Music, 10cc, Alan Parsons, Be Bop Deluxe etc. Under modern standards they clearly are prog/art rock. Bands that currently play similar music - pop with an artistic flavour - fall into this sub-genre.....In other words not strictly Prog
Progressor only reviews those bands that they consider 100% Prog and they don't care about the Moody Blues enough to review them but compares this band in other reviews about early Proto Kw with Poppuy Alan Parsoins Project..
Progressive Ears: Considers them Psychedelia oriented towards Symphonic, in good English...Proto Prog.
DPRP (Dutch Progressive Rock Page) doesn't include The Moody Blues in their reviews section and they include thousands of bands.

Just in case I checked other reliable sites:

GNOSIS and they don't mention The Moody Blues
Proggressive World Net: Neither
ProgNaut: Doesn't review any Moody Blues album.

But of course this last three sites are not as reliable IMHO, even though they don't even care about The Moody Blues.

So again, at least in the main sites it's almost a concensus that Moody Blues are at the most Proto Prog.

Maybe not Symphonic, but probably art-rock or even folk prog, as they have many folkish influences.

Symphonic no way, if you read our definition of Proto Prog, there's no other place for them:

The definition is clear as water, if the Moody Blues are not Proto Prog, then Proto Prog doesn't exist.

Iván

Oh No, A Lawyer! Help! LOL

Well, what I'm trying to say is that many general music references (music.com, yahoo music, allmusic, cduniverse) and other references like Encyclopedia Britannica (if they say something, no one can disagree, Wink

), progressiverock.com mention them like progressive rock, prog/art-rock or art-rock.

All these mentioned references are reliable.
All the record stores I go classify moody blues as progressive rock
Mercado Livre, the largest auction site in my country has the subdivision progressive rock and almost all moody blues products are under the progressive rock subdivision.
Submarino is the biggest online store from my country and they classify moody blues as progressive

So there is no reason for me, for example to accept Moody Blues as a non-prog band.

For me proto-prog would be ok if proto-prog were considered progressive rock. But the way the genre is treated on this site, it isn't ok for me.

Edited by akin - August 18 2006 at 15:33