Most complex, challenging, original neo-prog band?

for me IQ they are getting better  and better every new album

Heartfelt thanks for all the responses.  Very informative.  I realised that I'd been rather dismissive of neo-prog in the past -- but that I was also ill-informed and in error when delving deeper. Great thing about prog is there's always more to learn and understand.

In fact, certain  bands not long ago that I'd considered regressive more than progressive were not classified as neo-prog, just assumed -- btw, I like more modern bands that draw heavily on classic prog, but also expand on it and have their own take on it like Anglagard I'd say.

Anyway, after sampling some of Discipline and The Watch, I gotta say I am truly impressed.  While I'm still fairly ignorant when it comes to the prog subgenres, I'm inclined to agree with you Prog-jester.  From what I heard, new symphonic seemed a better label than neo-prog for those two bands.  Neo-prog primarily or not, those are really good bands.  Thanks.

On thing, though, that I still find a little lacking in most, not all. of the bands I sampled (I own no neo-prog albums) is the rythms/ time signatures -- which is a key factor for me when it comes to hearing the progginess.  Quite a lot of the relatively little neo-prog I've heard seemed simple in a kind of New Wave sort of way.  But I haven't heard nearly enough to have an informed opinion generally.  All I can really say is that there's clearly a lot of good stuff out there.   At this time I'm particularly thankful for dicovering Prog-jester's choices, but I'll sample much more when time permits.

BaldJean wrote: another wrong use of the term "oxymoron". an oxymoron is NOT a contradiction; on the contrary, it is two opposites merging to form a new concept. examples are "bittersweet" or "a deafening silence"

I don't wish to get off-topic, however...

Your're barking up the wrong-tree, or at least being horribly pedantic, when looking for logical syntax in my wordings.  I'm a pseudo-lexicologist who goes boldly where no linguist has gone before.  Call me a rebel.  Actually, I strive for effect more than accuracy -- often things are implied within a certain context.  Primarily, I chose oxymoron over contradiction so I could make the cliche moron joke. Self-deprecating LOL@me is my predominant style.  However, that gentle joking aside, to the real matter-at hand...

While it's not the best-worded 'phrase', I had meant it as "a figure of speech where apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction." (OED definition).  My example was "...truly original neo-prog." Now the words "new" and "original" can mean exactly the same... Of course, as I'm using "neo" in the sense of a revival, "original-neo" does in a sense present a contradiction, but the terms "original neo-prog" in such juxtaposition most definitely forms a new concept  (call it neo-conceptualisation), and that was something I recognised all along. There's kind of a dialectic thing happening here, but, alas, the humorous intent was perhaps not evident.

My vote goes to Visible Wind, but again they are not Neo - they are purely Symphonic Prog IMO, and an excellent band.

Logan wrote: BaldJean wrote: another wrong use of the term "oxymoron". an oxymoron is NOT a contradiction; on the contrary, it is two opposites merging to form a new concept. examples are "bittersweet" or "a deafening silence" I don't wish to get off-topic, however... Your're barking up the wrong-tree, or at least being horribly pedantic, when looking for logical syntax in my wordings.  I'm a pseudo-lexicologist who goes boldly where no linguist has gone before.  Call me a rebel.  Actually, I strive for effect more than accuracy -- often things are implied within a certain context.  Primarily, I chose oxymoron over contradiction so I could make the cliche moron joke. Self-deprecating LOL@me is my predominant style.  However, that gentle joking aside, to the real matter-at hand... While it's not the best-worded 'phrase', I had meant it as "a figure of speech where apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction." (OED definition).  My example was "...truly original neo-prog." Now the words "new" and "original" can mean exactly the same... Of course, as I'm using "neo" in the sense of a revival, "original-neo" does in a sense present a contradiction, but the terms "original neo-prog" in such juxtaposition most definitely forms a new concept  (call it neo-conceptualisation), and that was something I recognised all along. There's kind of a dialectic thing happening here, but, alas, the humorous intent was perhaps not evident.

I like the way you think

erik neuteboom wrote: Stonebeard, you neo-prog specialist: have you never heard Twelfth Night or don't you like this amazing and innovative progrock band  ? Logan: how could you open this thread without Twelfth Night as a choice, I don't understand  ?

Edited by stonebeard - August 12 2006 at 16:43

stonebeard wrote: erik neuteboom wrote: Stonebeard, you neo-prog specialist: have you never heard Twelfth Night or don't you like this amazing and innovative progrock band [IMG]height=17 alt=Confused src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> ? Logan: how could you open this thread without Twelfth Night as a choice, I don't understand [IMG]height=17 alt=Confused src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> ?   No, I have Fact and Fiction, but though I like it, I just don't think it's as good as you or Cert say it is. Probably between a 3-4/5 for me, but it's gaining momentum. I near hated it on first listen. [IMG]height=17 alt=Embarrassed src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

    
It's an acquired taste - and Teaflax is living proof that you can actually lose the taste for it.

How remains a mystery to me - but I'm sure that one day it'll go "ping" and he'll realise the greatness of "Fact and Fiction" once again.

Anyway - the answer to the topic question is Twelfth Night - but only that album.

Fish Marillion have the most complex lyrics of any (Prog) rock band ever - and I'd say the music of "Script..." is challenging, as so many don't seem to get it.

The other thing about Marillion's music up to "Clutching..." is the deceptive simplcity of it - you just don't get bands writing true polyphony of that quality, even among the "classic" bands.

Just simple lines, intertwining...

stonebeard wrote: Orignial: Marillion or IQ Complex: Sanes Challenging: Depends on how you define challenging, but Saens probably wins.   Overall: Saens,

I've not yet heard Saens, so I'm not going to contest that, but from what I've heard:

Original: Twelfth Night or Marillion.
Complex: Abraxas or Collage/Satellite.
Challenging: Carptree perhaps.

erik neuteboom wrote: Logan: how could you open this thread without Twelfth Night as a choice, I don't understand  ?

Because, as I said in my initial post, "I am genuinely quite ignorant about neo-prog."  Mind you, I'm learning fast.

After a little research, I can now say that the list would be improved with the inclusion of Twelfth Night, as they are such an early neo-prog band.  They predate Marillion by years.  I wonder if UK should be considered an early neo-prog band rather than symphonic prog?  They sound more neo-proggish to me (probably why I don't like UK).

I listened to a sample of Twelfth Night as this site ("Fact and Fiction") and it sounds very New Wave to me - I didn't like it.  ALthough I do like some New Wave, the NW (or punk), influence does put me off much neo-prog.

Anyway, being a neo-prog neobie [sic], I mostly chose the names off the Neo Progressive 20 key studio albums list, and Twelfth Night doesn't have an album in the 'top-twenty' -- Abraxas does, but I didn't inlude that either.  For the other band-name options, I chose on name alone (in aid of the post that accompanies the poll).  Visible Wind, in particular, evoked such positively disgusting imagery that I felt compelled to include it.

Bhikkhu, I consider Anglagard to be a most excellent band.  Of the newer prog bands, they are one of the few that I consider to be at least the equals of classic prog masters.  Both studio albums are brilliant, I wish they had continued.  Mind you, although they are a neo-prog band in a sense (as they are not a prog band from the classic period thought they draw inspiration from bands of that time), they are, of course, listed here in the symphonic prog category.  They are, perhaps, considered too 'complex and sophisticated' (loaded terms, I know) for neo-prog categorization, and lack the New Wave qualities that many of the neo prog bands have.  They definitely have a different sound from what is considered neo-prog at this site.

Mind, you, there are band listed under symphonic prog that I don't consider sophisticated or virtuostic, and bands listed under neo-prog which do show complexity.  Some bands I'd defined as neo-prog, which are listed here as symphonic, before getting involved in this this site (Spock's Beard, Flower Kings, Transatlantic).  They're not classic bands, which makes the neo, and have modern AOR-type sounds to my ears (coupled with a retro-prog aesthetic).

I think ProgArchives does not agree with me on this, but I think HALLOWEEN could fit into that idea of complex Neo prog. Mmm... I'll read the definition again; Halloween is listen under Symphonic Prog, but I tend to think about them as Morgan Freeman related, so... Anyway, do try some Halloween and let me know what you think of them. Perhaps you'll like them as Symphonic prog not Morgan Freeman related. Still, they are into the right years, at least...