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Topic ClosedIs the Middle East going to war?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:30
Interestingly, it seems the kidnapped soldiers aren't even Zionists (Jews), they are Druze border patrols.  Nice job, Hizbullah.
 
On a seperate note, the Druze are actually the coolest people ever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:15
Avestin, I wish you the best of luck; If I were religous I'd be praying for you and your unit.
 
I am very surprised that Olmert attacked Lebanon and not the Syrians.  To be fair, Lebanon itself is terrified of Hizbullah, which controls southern Lebanon, not the Lebanese Army.  Hizbullah acts in effect as a Syrian/Iranian force in Lebanon, doing there dirty work.  Damascus is the onewho is declaring war, not Beirut.  The last thing Israel needs is another Vietnam, which Lebanon was for 18 years.
 
On a personal note, I don't want to hear any criticism about Israel's response from the French or Scandinavian governments.  Olmert is correct, this is an act of war, from Lebanon/Syria, and no other country would take it.
 
From Jpost.com
 
Quote
 
PM Olmert declares Hizbullah attack 'act of war' by Lebanon
 
Seven IDF soldiers were killed Wednesday in a Hizbullah attack on IDF forces patrolling the Lebanese border, it was released for publication.

Three soldiers riding in a Hummer jeep were also killed, while two other soldiers in the same jeep were kidnapped.

Four other soldiers died when the tank in which they were riding rode over a bomb, which detonated in a massive explosion. The force of the blast ripped the tank apart, and IDF forces were searching for the remains. All of the soldiers' families have been notified.

Wednesday morning's attacks, which occurred 17 days after IDF soldier Gilad Shalit was abducted in Gaza, opened a second front on Israel's northern border, including barrages of Katyusha rockets and mortar shells.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert declared the attack as an "act of war" and not terror. During a press conference with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi Wednesday afternoon, he called it an unprovoked assault by a sovereign nation and held Lebanon, where Hizbullah has a minister in the government, fully responsible.

"Israel's response will be restrained but very, very, very painful," Olmert added.

The Defense Ministry confirmed early Wednesday afternoon that two IDF soldiers had been kidnapped by Hizbullah. IDF ground troops had been sent into Lebanon to search for the two. IAF jets, helicopters and UAVs were also flying above Lebanon searching for the soldiers. Several jets were flying patterns above Beirut, Channel 10 reported. Simultaneously, Navy gunboats and artillery along the border were shelling Hizbullah targets in Lebanon.

The army has destroyed 17 targets as well as Hizbullah outposts and three bridges since the beginning of the operation.

Hizbullah's Al Manar TV broadcast earlier Wednesday that the organization had kidnapped the two soldiers. A senior Hizbullah official said that at least one of the allegedly kidnapped soldiers was still alive. A senior IDF officer landed Wednesday afternoon in the northern Druse village of Kfar Yanuh apparently to inform a family there that their son had been kidnapped.

Hizbullah launched a heavy barrage of Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at IDF positions and communities along the northern frontier on Wednesday morning starting about 9:15 a.m. One rocket scored a direct hit on a house in Shtula. Magen David Adom said they had treated six people so far. Both soldiers and civilians have been wounded. The wounded were being evacuated to Nahariya hospital.

According to the military, an explosive charge detonated under an IDF tank, inflicting casualties.

IDF Northern Command officers were in touch with UN and Red Cross officials in Lebanon to try and conduct negotiations through those organizations with the Lebanese government in an effort to retrieve the captured soldiers diplomatically. According to IDF estimations, military campaigns in Lebanon had little chance of retrieving the soldiers.

Meanwhile, police all over the country have gone on high alert to prevent terror attacks.

According to Channel 10, Hizbullah has offered to exchange the two soldiers and Cpl. Gilad Shalit for thousands of security prisoners.

IDF sources estimated that the attack was a Hizbullah response to Israel's early Wednesday attempted strike on top Hamas terrorist Mohammad Deif in Gaza.

Residents of the Western Galilee entered their shelters, and in the community of Shlomi, residents were asked to enter fortified rooms early Wednesday.

The northern border has been on high alert since Operation Summer rains began. 



Edited by NetsNJFan - July 12 2006 at 11:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:10
Originally posted by avestin avestin wrote:

^^^
Chances are little as I see it.
For the time being, only officers have been called so that they will be told what to expect. Then after receving their orders, the rest of the commanding force (which I am part of in my unit) and the rest of the soldiers will be called as well.
Honestly, I fear the worst.
I hope I am wrong.

 
I hope you're wrong too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:48
^^ Wow...That's seriously depressing .... Ouch I can't imagine what you're going through right now.

I guess the only thing we can do at this point is hope that the situation will end quickly and peacefully. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:25
^^^
Chances are little as I see it.
For the time being, only officers have been called so that they will be told what to expect. Then after receving their orders, the rest of the commanding force (which I am part of in my unit) and the rest of the soldiers will be called as well.
Honestly, I fear the worst.
I hope I am wrong.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:21
Originally posted by avestin avestin wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by avestin avestin wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Two Israeli troops captured by Hezbollah, on the Lebanese border..     Breaking News (BBC)

 

This is looking very bad. Some of my friends have been called to their reserve units to replace the regular army units so they can be available for whatever is to come.

I am waiting to be called as well, probably.

 

This is the time of the warmongerers


Are you in Israel, avestin??
    


Yes.
And my wife and I are going to leave it on August 6th to the USA for PhD studies.
Now I am afraid I will not have the chance to do it, since I will be called to my unit.
I feel terrible. This is very depressing. I thought I was used to getting my life being manipulated and disturved by all these outside intrusions in the appearance of the Arab-Israeli conflict, but this is really frightening. I honestly don't know what to do.

That's terrible, Assaf. Ouch

Is there any chance at all that you wouldn't be called to your unit?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:04
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by avestin avestin wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Two Israeli troops captured by Hezbollah, on the Lebanese border..     Breaking News (BBC)

 

This is looking very bad. Some of my friends have been called to their reserve units to replace the regular army units so they can be available for whatever is to come.

I am waiting to be called as well, probably.

 

This is the time of the warmongerers


Are you in Israel, avestin??
    


Yes.
And my wife and I are going to leave it on August 6th to the USA for PhD studies.
Now I am afraid I will not have the chance to do it, since I will be called to my unit.
I feel terrible. This is very depressing. I thought I was used to getting my life being manipulated and disturved by all these outside intrusions in the appearance of the Arab-Israeli conflict, but this is really frightening. I honestly don't know what to do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 08:49
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by spacecraft spacecraft wrote:

Much is made of the Israeli insurgence into the Gaza strip, bombs dropping here, innocent people killed there. But, hardly anyone blinks an eye when the obnoxious, ignorant and arogant race ( not England, but the Arabs, and Palestinions in particular) kill Jews.


I beg your pardon? Confused
 
Agree with forgotten son. 
 
I feel that Spacecraft should do some research into just how many ppl are killed and injured in both sides of the conflict (not just currently, but also since the inception of israel, and especially since the '2nd intafada').  Also to find out just how much money is being funded to both sides.  Then there is the effect on livelihoods of the civilians there (yes there are palastinian civilians too). 
 
The 'oh my god israel is being driven into the sea' arguement is not holding water, we are talking about a 'state' that has already been driven there.
 
Also, I hear more about the deaths of isralies by palastinians that vise versa (in spite of actual casualty statistics), so, many eyes are blinked indeed.
 
I just love how countries like USA and Israel, who have been wanting the world to be democratic, react to a country whose ppl uses democracy to vote in a party they dont like..... Theres got to be a reason palestinians voted the way they did... has anybody asked them?
 
I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 08:24
Originally posted by avestin avestin wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Two Israeli troops captured by Hezbollah, on the Lebanese border..     Breaking News (BBC)

 

This is looking very bad. Some of my friends have been called to their reserve units to replace the regular army units so they can be available for whatever is to come.

I am waiting to be called as well, probably.

 

This is the time of the warmongerers


Are you in Israel, avestin??
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 07:59
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Two Israeli troops captured by Hezbollah, on the Lebanese border..
    Breaking News (BBC)
 
This is looking very bad. Some of my friends have been called to their reserve units to replace the regular army units so they can be available for whatever is to come.
I am waiting to be called as well, probably.
 
This is the time of the warmongerers
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2006 at 05:18
Two Israeli troops captured by Hezbollah, on the Lebanese border..
    Breaking News (BBC)

Edited by Blacksword - July 12 2006 at 05:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 16:48
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?


As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies.
 
According to Wikipedia "Someone who attacks and/or kills a defenseless person is also considered a coward."  Blowing up people who are in public mourning over a loved one would apply.  I stand by my original assessment.


Wikipedia is hardly the most credible source in this matter. Anyone who is prepared to take their own life is hardly a coward, regardless of the manner in which they do it.

cow·ard·ice   Audio pronunciation of "Cowardice" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (kour-ds)
n.
Ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain.

 
I suppose everyone on this forum should consider you now to be a better source of definitions than Wikipedia.  I am humbled.
"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 15:40
^ Interesting read, Nets. Lets hope Aluf Benn is correct in his appraisal of the situation. Lets hope that the assumed rational nature of Bashar Assad prevents Syria from rising to the bait that Israel is putting out.

In reality, Syria will not cease supporting Hamas. Assad will no doubt be aware of Israels intentions to 'irritate' him. Lets hope that his irritation does not turn into rage. Israel are playing a dangerous game here. If they have so far failed to subdue Syrias support for Hamas, there's little reason why Israels scare tactics should succeed now. Israel may be gesturing more than anything else, in their fly pasts over Assads palace, but what are the actual consequences of this tactic back firing. Syria could indeed attack srael, inviiting death on themselves, but either way Israel hold all the aces. It may mean sacrificing a few thousand Israelis in Tel Aviv, but the end result would be the demise of a major enemy, and supplier of Hamas. A worthwhile sacrifice?

It's a sickening thought, but are we making too many assumptions about both sides? Is Aluf Benn merely trying to alay Israeli civilian fears of an attack from Syria, in his editorial? A downplaying of the situation.

Maybe he's right, but I for one dont really trust Assad, and I have difficulty with Olmerts agenda too, I'm afraid.

Lets hope sense and peace prevail.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 13:16
^  It looks like we are in for a second Operation Defensive Shield.  So much for "convergence" from the West Bank.
 
I thought the original incursion was appropriate, but I think the situation is spinning out of control.
 
Blacksword, I thought you might find this editorial interesting, from Haaretz:

Quote
We need a Nasrallah
By Aluf Benn

What is more frightening: a Syrian Scud missile with a chemical warhead that can hit Tel Aviv and kill thousands of people with poison gas, or a Palestinian Qassam missile full of primitive explosives, which hits Sderot and sometimes Ashkelon, and causes a small amount of damage? The destructive power of the Syrian missile is far greater, and yet few, if any, Israelis think about its existence. The Qassam, however, is seen as a serious security threat, which is of concern to the prime minister, the security services, the media and the Israeli public.

There is a simple explanation for the inverse ratio between the performance capability of the enemy's missiles and the level of anxiety about them: The security threat does not stem from the technology of weapons systems, but from the finger on the trigger. Israel's leaders portray Syrian President Bashar Assad as the principal inciter of terror in the region and as the person responsible for the kidnapping of soldier Gilad Shalit. But they were not afraid Assad would launch Scuds, even after Israeli warplanes buzzed his palace. He may be a terrorist, but he is not crazy. If he presses the launch button, he will risk a harsh reaction from Israel that will endanger his rule and his country. That is why Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz can irritate him without fear.

As opposed to Assad, the Qassam operators in Gaza cannot be deterred by an F-16 fighter plane, and their hand does not tremble when they launch another missile over the fence. Their strength stems from the weakness of the Palestinian Authority and from the absence of a central security force in Gaza.

Israel has suffered from this problem since its earliest days: Terror develops in a place where the Arab government is weak. That was the case in Jordan in the 1950s and 1960s, in Lebanon in the 1970s and 1980s, and now in the PA. Centralized governments with a strong army, like Syria, Egypt and Jordan today, are able to ensure quiet on the border, and their behavior is predictable. Wherever there is chaos, there are problems of "ongoing security."

It is enough to see what is happening in Lebanon. The moment Hezbollah took control over the south of the country and armed itself with thousands of Katyushas and other rockets, a stable balance of deterrence was created on both sides of the border. The withdrawal of the Israel Defense Forces from Lebanon in 2000 was made possible not only because of the daring of then prime minister Ehud Barak, but also thanks to Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah, who conducts a policy of "one law and one weapon" on the other side.

Nasrallah hates Israel and Zionism no less than do the Hamas leaders, Shalit's kidnappers and the Qassam squads. But as opposed to them - he has authority and responsibility, and therefore his behavior is rational and reasonably predictable. Under the present conditions, that's the best possible situation. Hezbollah is doing a better job of maintaining quiet in the Galilee than did the pro-Israeli South Lebanese Army.

In the territories there is no such Nasrallah today. PA Chair Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) is opposed to terror and wants diplomatic negotiations, but he operates as a tortured intellectual and a commentator, rather than as an authoritative leader. The Hamas government, which at first showed promising signs of organization and discipline, has behaved like him and shrugged its shoulders during the kidnapping crisis. The weapons in Gaza are split among organizations, gangs and clans, which Israel has difficulty deterring.

The events of the past weeks in Gaza have once again demonstrated that the essential condition for a quiet border is a responsible finger on the trigger on the other side. The conclusion we must come to is that until the appearance of a factor that will take control of security and weapons on the West Bank - Israel will not be able to withdraw from there. Negotiations with Abbas are not sufficient, nor is an agreement with him. It is more important that his statement about "one law and one weapon" be implemented on the ground. Even if it is implemented by a Palestinian Nasrallah

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 10:52
Well, this seems to be going very well. If Israel keeps up this pressure it should all be over in no time. The kidknapped soldier is bound to be released, and the Palestianians will see the error of their ways. Perhaps after that the Middle East can live happily ever after..

I dont think..


    8 down, a few hundred thousand to go...

Edited by Blacksword - July 06 2006 at 10:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2006 at 03:25
^ That represents a potentially more serious escalation of the crisis than the rocket attack on Ashkelon in recent days.

BBC Report

With both sides baiting each other like this, it's obvious they are trying to escalate this conflict beyond control, at this specific point in time. The abduction of Gilad Shalit and the rocket attacks, warrent response from Israel, but not the major conflageration they appear to be trying to bring about.
    

Edited by Blacksword - July 05 2006 at 03:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2006 at 00:33
Update from Jpost.com:

Quote Jul. 5, 2006 0:06 | Updated Jul. 5, 2006 5:23
IDF raises alert on Syrian border
By YAAKOV KATZ

 

The IDF has raised the level of alert along the northern border with Syria out of fear that President Bashar Assad would launch a strike against Israel in response to a recent IAF buzz of his palace.

Syrian military forces, IDF officers confirmed Tuesday, have also gone on high alert, and the assumption in the IDF is that Assad would order a harsh military response if Israel decided to take additional steps against Damascus in relation to the kidnapping of Cpl. Gilad Shalit in the Gaza Strip.

The type of response is unknown at this stage, but officers said it could be a missile strike on IDF installations or communities in the North. Another possibility, military sources said, is that Syria would use its proxy - the Hizbullah in Lebanon - to launch an attack against Israel in its place.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Tuesday issued a veiled threat against Syria, vowing to strike "those who sponsor" the terrorists in the Gaza Strip who abducted Shalit. Speaking at a business conference in Beersheba, Olmert said he had ordered the IDF to push forward with efforts "to strike terrorists and those who sent them and those who sponsor them," an apparent reference to Syria. "None of them will be immune."

On Monday, Defense Minister Amir Peretz issued a similar threat, warning that Assad would be held personally responsible if Shalit was harmed. "We will know how to reach everyone involved in the kidnapping and everyone who is responsible for his fate," Peretz said.

Last week, four IAF fighter jets buzzed Assad's summer residence in Latakia, Syria, to try to pressure him to persuade Damascus-based Hamas leader Kahled Meshaal to release Shalit. Senior defense officials said Tuesday that Israel was considering taking additional steps against Syria as part of its overall effort to retrieve the abducted soldier.

According to the officials, Syria has raised its level of alert along the border in wake of last week's flyover of Assad's palace and would try to demonstrate military might if Israel took a similar action. Last week, the Northern Command was warned of the flyover before it happened, to give commanders stationed along the border time to prepare for a possible violent Syrian response.

AP contributed to this report.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2006 at 03:23
Update:

Palestinian militants have given Israel until Tuesday to release Palestinian prisoners or 'face the consequences' whatever that means. A degree of sabre rattling, I'm sure.

BBC Report
    

Edited by Blacksword - July 03 2006 at 03:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 17:23
^ Good points Blacksword.  English media isn't mentioning this, I'm shocked.  The Syrian flyovers were talked about extensively on Fox News, and less so on CNN.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 17:19
Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Once again, the mainstream media chooses to play down/ignore the presence of Israeli fighter jets flying over the summer retreat of the Syrian leader. The jets were apparently fired upon and retreated.\ This does have the real potential to escalate.. Provocative..     

 

Blacksword, this is hardly new news.  This was days ago.  I seriously doubt the Syrians chased the Israelis away.  They are just saying that to save face.  During the six day war Syrian state radio said that they shot down over 80 Israeli Jets and were advancing on Haifa. 

 

The Syrians are smart, they won't fire on the planes because they no they can't win this fight, if it comes.  That of course wont stop them and Iran from funding Hizbullah and Hamas.

 

American news channels talked about this quite a bit.

 

It was interesting, I watched BBC News last night, very different from CNN/Fox News.


I know this not hot off the press, but this is serious and the BBC and ITN have not even mentioned it on TV. You had to go out of your way to find the news on their websites. It's as if they are under instruction to play down the potential seriousness of the situation.

Syria may not have fired on the jets...but they may have. Who knows. They are within their rights to do so, and their armed forces are quite formidable, certainly more so than Iraqs ever were. It seems that Israel may be deliberatly baiting them to pull them into the conflict.
    
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