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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 03:26
Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
    BBC Report

Edited by Blacksword - June 30 2006 at 03:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 03:51
Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?


As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 05:20
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:


Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?
As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies.


I would agree. Cowardice is nothing to do with these acts. It's a case of religous psychosis, blatant insanity or at best psychopathy, that drives these actions. These people are nothing in this life, but their mental illness leads them to believe they may be something in the next.
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 07:34
The best thing is, to give all of the Dream Theater, well, prog CDS, to each of them... Then all of them have to write reviews, peace upon earth..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 08:53
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?


As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies.
 
According to Wikipedia "Someone who attacks and/or kills a defenseless person is also considered a coward."  Blowing up people who are in public mourning over a loved one would apply.  I stand by my original assessment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 09:39
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
    BBC Report
 
 
 
The UN is ALWAYS warning about the latest humanitarian crisis in Gaza.  No money for food, but money for Qassam rockets and automatic rifles?  Please. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 10:11
Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.     BBC Report

 

 

 

The UN is ALWAYS warning about the latest humanitarian crisis in Gaza.  No money for food, but money for Qassam rockets and automatic rifles?  Please. 


I dont think money is the issue. It's more a case of food and medical supplies not getting through. Attacking civillian infrastructure is not going to achieve anything but a potential worsening of the problem.

Besides Nets, it's not the entire population of Gaza building rockets and dealing out death. Whether you like to admit it or not the extremists are a minority.

As for the rockets, I wouldn't be surprised if their conponant parts were donated from an outside source. Syria perhaps.


    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 10:33
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.     BBC Report

 
The UN is ALWAYS warning about the latest humanitarian crisis in Gaza.  No money for food, but money for Qassam rockets and automatic rifles?  Please. 


I dont think money is the issue. It's more a case of food and medical supplies not getting through. Attacking civilian infrastructure is not going to achieve anything but a potential worsening of the problem.

Besides Nets, it's not the entire population of Gaza building rockets and dealing out death. Whether you like to admit it or not the extremists are a minority.

As for the rockets, I wouldn't be surprised if their component parts were donated from an outside source. Syria perhaps.


    
 
 
Good point, the Syria-Iran axis is responsible for much of the terror, they are the ones who control Hizbullah, and partially Hamas.  Whether or not the extremists are a minority, a democratically elected Hamas party is a tacit approval from the Palestinian people of their tactics. 
 
Food and medical supplies don't get through because every time Israel opens the Rafah crossing, they have to close it because of a terror threat.  The crossings are frequent targets, and while I sympathize with the majority of the Pales population suffering, its understandable to see why the borders are always closed.  I think the term humanitarian crisis is overused in this conflict, while I don't doubt there are temporary ones, the UN basically considers it a continuous one, which doesn't make sense in light of the fact that Palestinians have a life expectancy comprable to that in the USA.
 
I thought this was an interesting editorial; a critique of Palestinian leadership, not the people:
 
    
Quote

Careful what you hope for

 

Now that they've got a Jewish-free Gaza, why are the Palestinians doing everything in their power to bring back the IDF?
Andrew Friedman

Immediately following the withdrawal of all Israeli civilian and military personnel last summer, Palestinian spokespeople around the world set out on a strange (and largely unsuccessful) PR campaign to convince the world that Gaza was somehow still occupied.

 To be sure, Palestinian history is full of strange claims about Israel (such as charges that Israeli soldiers pass out poison candy to Palestinian children), but this was surely one of the strangest. How could Gaza be "occupied" with no Jews? What is the nature of this claim?

 Another question: Since the disengagement, Palestinians have done everything in their power to force Israel to re-enter Gaza. As Bethlehem-based human rights lawyer Shawqi Issa wrote , "the Palestinians must force Israel to re-occupy Gaza."

 Doesn't make sense

But it just doesn't make sense. Israel's presence in the West Bank and Gaza has been the centerpiece in Palestinian claims for years. Palestinian factions don't agree on much, but the notion that an Israeli withdrawal would facilitate the construction of a Palestinian state has been one thing they could all agree on.
 
Israelis of many stripes have also lined up to back such a withdrawal, saying such a move was not only the only way to ensure Israel's Jewish, democratic nature, but would also to encourage the Palestinians to give up dreams of Greater Palestine and finally make peace with Israel. "Give them something to lose, and they won't be so fast to gamble with it," went the argument underlying the process.
 
But a funny thing happened on the way to the peace: The Palestinians didn't buy it. Israel made significant withdrawals from disputed land in 1994, 95, 96 and 97, and by the time Benjamin Netanyahu was elected in May, 1996, well over 90 percent of Palestinian civilians lived under Palestinian civil jurisdiction. But the number of terror attacks rose consistently, forcing Israeli to increase arrests, security closures and eventually targeted killings, in direct relation to the amount of territory given over to Palestinian control. The whole picture seems to suggest a concerted effort on the part of the Palestinian leadership to ensure Israel maintain some control over Gaza.
Two possibilities

There are several possible explanations for this phenomenon. The most obvious is that the absence of an Israeli occupier places a tremendous burden on the Palestinian leadership to produce results. Since the "naqba" in 1948, and especially since the Six Day War in 1967, Israel has always been there as a scapegoat for every Palestinian or international problem imaginable, from September 11 to the death of Yasser Arafat and everything in between.

 Now that the Israel is out of Gaza and the "occupation" is no longer, the Palestinians are in a bind. They've got the resources to build the state they say they want (per capita the PA receives more foreign aid than any other country in the world), meaning they've got to reign in corruption and start producing, or they've got to come up with some reason they "can't."

 In other words, in an Israel-less Gaza, the only options for the Palestinians are to create their state or to reconstruct their scapegoat. In this context, Shawqi Issa's words bear repeating: "The Palestinians must force Israel to re-occupy Gaza."

 Perhaps there is another possibility: Could it be that for the Palestinian national movement, the Israel – Palestinian conflict is existential in nature? Groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PLO and others were created to fight Israel, and for very little else. Could it be that these groups will try to preserve the conflict at all cost, because without the conflict there is no PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jihad?

 One might even take this line of reasoning further. While it is true that there are a group of people who now identify themselves as Palestinian, it is equally true that before 1964 no such group existed. Had Arab residents of Jaffa, Haifa or Jerusalem been asked in 1900, or even in 1950, about their nationality, they would likely have answered "Arab," not Palestinian.

 And indeed, it is difficult to distinguish 'Palestinianism' from a broader Arab identity. All the main defining characteristics of "nation" – language, cuisine, culture, religion - are indistinguishable from Arab culture. And even in examples where a unique, Palestinian culture has emerged – such as film maker Hany Abu-Assad or poet Mahmoud Darwish – their work focuses almost entirely on aspects of the conflict with Israel.

 Not that this negates Palestinian nationhood today. With somewhere between 2-7 million people around the world who define themselves in whole or in part as Palestinians, the nation exists, and must be treated as such. But it could be an explanation for the determination of Palestinian officialdom – in all groups and at all levels – to prevent a true end to Israeli involvement in Palestinian life.      



Edited by NetsNJFan - June 30 2006 at 10:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 13:17
^ That is an interesting read. Thanks for sharing it Nets.

There have always been problems with Palestinian leadership, and it's a tragedy for the peace process that Hamas were elected to power. There are gains to be made by both sides using propoganda and portraying themselves as the sole victims in the conflict. The situation is complicated, and I fear one without end or solution. A two state solution seems like a positive idea, but it wouldn't alter the fact that much of the Arab world wants an end to Israel. It also wouldn't alter the fact that there are rabid right wing Jewish elements who see expansion beyond current borders - however ill defined - as essential to establish Israel as the world leaders after the 'apocalypse war' Thankfully adherence to religous prophecy is not 'apparently' the goal of the Israeli government. That said, western style democracies are able to dress up their more cotraversial agendas in a far more palatable and marketable form than their Arab/Muslim counterparts.

Peace may be the ultimate goal of innocent people on both sides, but these folk dont call the shots. Even in a democracy, power corrupts and extreme elements will persist on both sides. I fear for the future of that region.

I agree, to an extent, that the term 'Humanitarian crisis' is used alot by the UN in relation to the Palestinian position. Their predicament is clearly not on the scale of say, that witnessed in Darfur or Rwanda, but the potential is there for the crisis to reach a point, where damage to civillian infrastructure could lead to a complete collapse of the PA. That would not solve anything. It would merely inspire more terrorism. I believe Israel needs to do everything in its power to maintain and promote the moral high ground. Terrorism is, after all, abhorant in all its forms. Their current action undermines their credibility IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 13:28
Nets:  Thanks for posting that article, it was a fascinating read.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 14:22

Blacksword:

I agree, the recent events are most unfortuanate for both sides.  I do feel, however that it could have been avoided.  Had the Int'l community pressured Hamas to stop the rocket fire from Gaza, there would have been no invasion.  The again, it isn't like the Hamas government ever listens to the world, they wouldn't now.
 
I've been trying to think of another way Israel could have stopped the Qassam attacks, and I'm stumped.  Any ideas Blacksword?
 
(I know this is being framed in context of the kidnapping, but it is really about the Qassam rocket fire on Sderot, for which the PM, MoD were getting roasted by the public).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 14:43
Whether or not you agree with their assessment, you won't stop the Palestinians attacking Israel as long as they believe they're trying to regain their own land. What do they have to lose? And it's not as if there are any counter offers on the table.......after all, how would you feel if someone invaded & occupied the whole of the US.......but expected you to feel grateful that you were offered back Montana & RI as full & final settlement.........
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 16:13
Originally posted by crimson thing crimson thing wrote:

Whether or not you agree with their assessment, you won't stop the Palestinians attacking Israel as long as they believe they're trying to regain their own land. What do they have to lose? And it's not as if there are any counter offers on the table.......after all, how would you feel if someone invaded & occupied the whole of the US.......but expected you to feel grateful that you were offered back Montana & RI as full & final settlement.........
 
I know, Crimson I do understand their viewpoint.  They have been victims of History, pawns between the Arabs and the Israelis.  Nonetheless, they do have something to lose, the Gaza Strip, which they've now lost.  My problem is that this conflict isn't about the territories, it's about Israel proper.  The Palestinians already have close to 78% of Mandatory Palestine, with the Jews having 17%.  This conflict isn't about the 5% that are the territories, it is about the 17% occupied by the Jews.  The PLO was founded in 1964, before the territories were occupied. 
 
There has been offer after offer after offer, all turned down.  Olmert is offering a full withdrawal from 90% of the WB, with negotiations to determine the remainign 10%.  What is the problem with this offer?  Is it that they don't want the Israelis to leave?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 16:49
Update:
 
Typical UN is at it again; not a peep over 400,000 dead in Darfur.  But the Gaza incursion, where I think 6 people have died, denotes a special session of the Security Council.  Give me a freaking break. 
 
The UN always does this, it always has its two perennial issues.  1) Israel 2) whatever else there is time for before lunch.


Edited by NetsNJFan - June 30 2006 at 16:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 20:41
For too long, the Palestinians have been run by terrorists, who do not want peace at any cost. Hamas are always going to be a problem and i hope Israel will deal with them in their usual cold blooded efficiency. The US and the Eu will stand by, but spout their usual mutterings, whilst allowing the Israelis to protect their own, as it should be.
 
Much is made of the Israeli insurgence into the Gaza strip, bombs dropping here, innocent people killed there. But, hardly anyone blinks an eye when the obnoxious, ignorant and arogant race ( not England, but the Arabs, and Palestinions in particular) kill Jews.
 
The only way there will be peace in the middle east is when the Palestinions realise that Israel is here to stay, and will, quite rightly, defend itself in any way it wants.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 20:54
I'll try and not be critical, but I cannot BELIEVE the overwhelming and unnecessary force used by Israel in this current conflict. They are being the bullies in this situation, despite the medias attempt to victimize them - while simultaneously demonizing Hamas. I understand that Hamas is not the most angelic of organizations, but there is no right of Israel in arresting the Paelstinian government members. If Hamas entered Israel and arrested their leaders, there would be worldwide outrage. I know it's dangerous to say negative things about Israel, especially without recieving criticism, but they are really adding fuel to this fire right now. A new type of world war is on the breach, especially with these multiple Middle Eastern struggles adding up (Iraq, Iran, Israel, Afghanistan...)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 22:19
Originally posted by Root_Pepper Root_Pepper wrote:

I'll try and not be critical, but I cannot BELIEVE the overwhelming and unnecessary force used by Israel in this current conflict. They are being the bullies in this situation, despite the medias attempt to victimize them - while simultaneously demonizing Hamas. I understand that Hamas is not the most angelic of organizations, but there is no right of Israel in arresting the Paelstinian government members. If Hamas entered Israel and arrested their leaders, there would be worldwide outrage. I know it's dangerous to say negative things about Israel, especially without recieving criticism, but they are really adding fuel to this fire right now. A new type of world war is on the breach, especially with these multiple Middle Eastern struggles adding up (Iraq, Iran, Israel, Afghanistan...)
 
What overwhelming force?  The number of casualties can be counted on one hand...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 23:30
It's not the casulties that count, it's the sheer firepower they've brought in. It's the destruction of power plants removing safe water supplies or reliant electricity throughout Gaza. It's the shock and awe tactics that have Palestinians hiding in their homes. It's these actions that breed terrorism.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2006 at 23:43
Originally posted by Root_Pepper Root_Pepper wrote:

It's not the casulties that count, it's the sheer firepower they've brought in. It's the destruction of power plants removing safe water supplies or reliant electricity throughout Gaza. It's the shock and awe tactics that have Palestinians hiding in their homes. It's these actions that breed terrorism.
 
I disagree.  I think the power plant attack was a mistake in retrospect, but terrorism is endemic to Palestinian culture.  Israel faced constant terrorism from Palestinian factions (egged on by Egypt and Syria) way before it occupied the territories.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 06:08
With such extreme fundings and firepower, a force as well armed as Israel doesn't have an excuse for such mistakes. And do you know where the terrorism originally stems from? There's a reason why the people are this desperate, it's not pointless, ruthless killings. They aren't willing to turn to the lowest possible medium for attack without a cause. I'm not justifying the acts, but I think one should look at what went wrong in causing people to need to use such a concept of violence.
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