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Time-Machinist 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2006
Location: Museum
Status: Offline
Points: 182
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 Posted: June 06 2006 at 20:37 |
 imoeng wrote:
Here it is
- Underrated in progworld = NO
- Underrated in the free world = YES
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And here it is: Almost everybody knows (and most of them loves) Dream Theater. Even young people who recently met with rock-metal music(and knowing at the most 10 bands including Maiden, Megadeth, Metallica etc), know them. Thus i am not surprised when Portnoy is chosen to be "the best metal drummer" in most Turkish polls.
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imoeng
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2006
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 2450
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 20:39 |
Time-Machinist wrote:
imoeng wrote:
Here it is
- Underrated in progworld = NO
- Underrated in the free world = YES
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And here it is: Almost everybody knows (and most of them loves) Dream Theater. Even young people who recently met with rock-metal music(and knowing at the most 10 bands including Maiden, Megadeth, Metallica etc), know them. Thus i am not surprised when Portnoy is chosen to be "the best metal drummer" in most Turkish polls. |
explain that please, the "almost eveybody knows" part
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Time-Machinist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2006
Location: Museum
Status: Offline
Points: 182
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 20:44 |
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Pardon me. Every prog listener (of course), nearly all rock&metal listeners, and some non-metal listeners. Anyway their number does not enclose the majority of the population of course. Sorry, my bad...
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Ghandi 2
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 17 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1494
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 20:54 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ghandi 2 wrote:
Your English is ok; it's a lot more readable than some native English speakers I know.
Weird chords, exotic scales, and complex bars do not a good band make. (For the non-Star Wars fans: Just because something and odd and complex doesn't mean it's good.)
Personally, I don't care how good their music may be; at the end of the day the heavy distortion and technical w**king still hurts my ears. |
do you have to use that word? Maybe you should consider how much work is involved with that "w**kery" ... and if you go to the opera or symphony orchestra and they're playing a highly complex piece of classical music, would you also bash these musicians for playing overly technical, with too little improvisation or emotion? |
No, because to me the classical music sounds good and the complexity is simply because that is how the composer writes, not like they're trying to show off how well they can play. Which is the problem I have that although they do work on the melody, too much of the music is "I cam play scales faster than you." Which side is more prevalent? I don't know, as I haven't listened to them extensively. But for me if any part of the music is like that it's too much. If you like them, fine; but I don't.
| And finally: What did DT do to you? Somehow I get the feeling that DT bashers somehow feel like they've been betrayed or cheated ... nobody forces them to listen to the music. So please try to be nice and polite to the musicians ... you can say that you don't like something without hurting their feelings. |
Eh? I don't hate them. I was merely pointing out that just because somebody is doing something weird and complex doesn't necessarily mean it's good, which is the reason that that guy was giving.
Edited by Ghandi 2 - June 06 2006 at 21:15
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 21:17 |
Ghandi 2 wrote:
do you have to use that word? Maybe you should consider how much work is involved with that "w**kery" ... and if you go to the opera or symphony orchestra and they're playing a highly complex piece of classical music, would you also bash these musicians for playing overly technical, with too little improvisation or emotion?
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No, because to me the classical music sounds good and the complexity is simply because that is how the composer writes, not like they're trying to show off how well they can play. Which is the problem I have that although they do work on the melody, too much of the music is "I cam play scales faster than you." Which side is more prevalent? I don't know, as I haven't listened to them extensively. But for me if any part of the music is like that it's too much. If you like them, fine; but I don't.[/quote]
So good technical skill and bad technical are defined by the way you hear it? I suppose I should say I don't like Vivaldi because he wrote music just to show of the skill of his musicans, and it isn't the musicians wish to show off. Seriously what does it matter what musician writes the parts?
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Aaron
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 395
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 21:50 |
i think dream theater's music lacks sincerity, that's why i don't like them
Aaron
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imoeng
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2006
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 2450
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 22:05 |
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Ghandi 2
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 17 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1494
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 23:08 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
So good technical skill and bad technical are defined by the way you hear it? I suppose I should say I don't like Vivaldi because he wrote music just to show of the skill of his musicans, and it isn't the musicians wish to show off. Seriously what does it matter what musician writes the parts? |
No, it is undeniable that DT are technically very good, whether I like them or not. You could say that Vivaldi wrote complex music to show off, but there would be no motive for him to do so: why should he care how well the first chair violinist of the Philidelphia Philharmonic can play? Whereas Petrucci playing fast makes him look like a good guitarist.
Technical skill is an absolute, but whether or not the techincal skill is being used to show off or simply being used because that is the way the musician wanted to write it is up to the listener. DT detractors see the technical sections as self-indulgent w**kery that exists only to make the respective players look good; DT fans think these sections are awesome showcases for their abilities. It's all in perception.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 23:35 |
Taste appart...Are you crazy????
- There are 145 threads that mention Dream Theater's name + 50 threads about Octavarium, + 11 threads about Metropolis (Not counting the rest of the albums), this makes 206 threads (At least) about Dream Theater. King Crimson has 15 threads.
- Octavarium has 398 reviews and Scenes From A Memory Metropolis Part II has 387 reviews,
- Thick as a Brick has 231 reviews and the next Tull album has 50%
- Close to the Edge has 471 reviews, but no other Yes album comes remotely near to Octavarium or Metropolis
- Selling England by the Pound has slightly more reviews than any of both Dream Theater albums, the rest of Genesis releases not remotely near.
- No ELP album has 50% the number of reviews than Octavarium.
- No King Crimson album is close to any of the above mentioned Dream Theater albums in number of reviews.
Please, is this an underrated band?????
This is a comparison with the most iconic bands of Prog, the ones that everybody knows and most people love.
Iván
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 23:41 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Taste appart...Are you crazy????
- There are 145 threads that mention Dream Theater's name + 50
threads about Octavarium, + 11 threads about Metropolis (Not counting
the rest of the albums), this makes 206 threads (At least) about Dream Theater. King Crimson has 15 threads.
- Octavarium has 398 reviews and Scenes From A Memory Metropolis Part II has 387 reviews,
- Thick as a Brick has 231 reviews and the next Tull album has 50%
- Close to the Edge has 471 reviews, but no other Yes album comes remotely near to Octavarium or Metropolis
- Selling England by the Pound has slightly more reviews than any of
both Dream Theater albums, the rest of Genesis releases not remotely
near.
- No ELP album has 50% the number of reviews than Octavarium.
- No King Crimson album is close to any of the above mentioned Dream Theater albums in number of reviews.
Please, is this an underrated band?????
This is a comparison with the most iconic bands of Prog, the ones that everybody knows and most people love.
Iván |
hahhaha... Ivan you have to understand what 'underrated' means to some people......
'I love this band so much.... that they must be underrated because not everyone sees their inherent brilliance as I do'
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 23:42 |
DT are the last band I'd call underrated  There's a bunch of metalheads out there who never heard of prog than love them.
Edited by The Miracle - June 06 2006 at 23:43
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Jeff Schu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 394
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 23:55 |
The Miracle wrote:
DT are the last band I'd call underrated
There's a bunch of metalheads out there who never heard of prog than love them.
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Aside from Rush it was DT that was my biggest introduction to the wide world of Prog way back in 1995/1996 ... Prior to discovering Rush and DT I was a metalhead through and through I listened to bands like Iron Maiden, Megadeth and Metallica and other metal. After a while Rush and DT were the gateway into prog for me from their I discovered Yes and King Crimson as well as delving much deeper into the world of prog-metal.
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For the record I wouldn't call DT underrated... A bit underappreciated maybe but not really underrated.
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Hierophant
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 11 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 651
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Posted: June 06 2006 at 23:56 |
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Please for the love of God stop making these threads. YOUR PROG METAL ISN'T UNDER ATTACK.
jesus christ.
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 00:02 |
Jeff Schu wrote:
The Miracle wrote:
DT are the last band I'd call underrated
There's a bunch of metalheads out there who never heard of prog than love them.
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Aside from Rush it was DT that was my biggest introduction to the
wide world of Prog way back in 1995/1996 ... Prior to discovering Rush
and DT I was a metalhead through and through I listened to bands like
Iron Maiden, Megadeth and Metallica and other metal. After a while Rush
and DT were the gateway into prog for me from their I discovered Yes
and King Crimson as well as delving much deeper into the world of
prog-metal.
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My stoey's close... I liked metal and hard rock mostly(I still love (early)Metallica, Maiden, and Megadeth  ),
plus a couple prog bands(Yes, Tull, Floyd). Then I became upsessed with
DT, and found this site one time searching for 'six degrees'... this is
where I truly discovered prog, so you can say DT led me to it 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 00:22 |
micky wrote:
hahhaha... Ivan you have to understand what 'underrated' means to some people......
'I love this band so much.... that they must be underrated because not everyone sees their inherent brilliance as I do'
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Micky, think about this:
- Prog Metal is not remotely the most popular genre, but still has more combined reviews in two albums than any Symphonic or Art Rock band.
- King Crimson (Despite my dislike for most of their music) has done more for Prog during 37 years than Dream Theater in 16 years, but King Crimson has only 15 threads and Dream Theater 206 at least.
- Metropolis 2000: Scenes From New York has an average of 4.37 stars while Aphrodite's Child, one of the best Conceptual albums ever has 4.17 average and Trespass the turning point of Genesis has 4.21 and Trilogy or Brain Salad Surgery, masterpieces and influential albums of Prog have 4,27 and 4,33 stars.
Underrated could mean they are not mentioned enough......They are one of the most mentioned and reviewed bands (If not the most).
Underrated could mean their albums have undeserved low ratings.......Dream Theater has two of the highest averages in Prog Archives.
How can anybody call them underrated? And if they do, what in hell does underrated means?
Iván
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 00:23 |
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Ivan is right
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 00:32 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Micky, think about this:
- Prog Metal is not remotely the most popular genre, but still has more combined reviews in two albums than any Symphonic or Art Rock band.
Are you kidding? any two progmetal albums have more reviews than Yes, Genesis, Rush or ELP albums?
- King Crimson (Despite my dislike for most of their music) has done more for Prog during 37 years than Dream Theater in 16 years, but King Crimson has only 15 threads and Dream Theater 206 at least.
That's because they're more popular with the youth.... most DT threads are started by noobs who haven't heard much prog outside of DT, and 80% of them are repeated.
- Metropolis 2000: Scenes From New York has an average of 4.37 stars while Aphrodite's Child, one of the best Conceptual albums ever has 4.17 average and Trespass the turning point of Genesis has 4.21 and Trilogy or Brain Salad Surgery, masterpieces and influential albums of Prog have 4,27 and 4,33 stars.
Yeah but the studio version has a normal well balanced rating of 4.27 which is normal for an album commonly accepted as a masterpiece of prog metal. The DVD is mostly rated by fans because thse who dislike the band wouldn't watch it, it's different from hearing an album. And since it's a really nice DVD, they rate it highly. It only has 31 (mostly fan ) ratings, while BSS has 183 more objective ones.
Underrated could mean they are not mentioned enough......They are one of the most mentioned and reviewed bands (If not the most).
Underrated could mean their albums have undeserved low ratings.......Dream Theater has two of the highest averages in Prog Archives.
How can anybody call them underrated? And if they do, what in hell does underrated means? I totally agree with this part
Iván |
Edited by The Miracle - June 07 2006 at 00:33
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 00:51 |
The Miracle wrote:
Micky, think about this:
- Prog Metal is not remotely the most popular genre, but still has more combined reviews in two albums than any Symphonic or Art Rock band.
Are you kidding? any two progmetal albums have more reviews than Yes, Genesis, Rush or ELP albums?
Holy God, you know I'm talking about Metropolis and Octavarium have more ratings combined than any other two albums from band here if I'm not wrong. 
But lets check this numbers choosing the two albums with more ratings by the most reviewed bands:
Reviews of:
Genesis
SEbtP.........415
Foxtrot.......295
TOTAL...........710
Yes
CttE........471
Relayer..269
TOTAL.....740
ELP
Trilogy.....110
BSS.........183
TOTAL......293
Dream Theater
Metropolis II.....387
Octavarium.......398
TOTAL...............785
I doubt there are bands with more ratings.
Iván
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 00:52 |
micky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Taste appart...Are you crazy????
- There are 145 threads that mention Dream Theater's name + 50
threads about Octavarium, + 11 threads about Metropolis (Not counting
the rest of the albums), this makes 206 threads (At least) about Dream Theater. King Crimson has 15 threads.
- Octavarium has 398 reviews and Scenes From A Memory Metropolis Part II has 387 reviews,
- Thick as a Brick has 231 reviews and the next Tull album has 50%
- Close to the Edge has 471 reviews, but no other Yes album comes remotely near to Octavarium or Metropolis
- Selling England by the Pound has slightly more reviews than any of
both Dream Theater albums, the rest of Genesis releases not remotely
near.
- No ELP album has 50% the number of reviews than Octavarium.
- No King Crimson album is close to any of the above mentioned Dream Theater albums in number of reviews.
Please, is this an underrated band?????
This is a comparison with the most iconic bands of Prog, the ones that everybody knows and most people love.
Iván |
hahhaha... Ivan you have to understand what 'underrated' means to some people......
'I love this band so much.... that they must be underrated because not everyone sees their inherent brilliance as I do'
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I think you really hit the nail on the head here, Micky...  It seems to be a generation gap thing, though. The majority of DT fans are considerably younger than we are, and many of them got into prog through DT. As we say here in Italy, you can never forget your first love - and many really behave like people in love.
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: June 07 2006 at 01:01 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The Miracle wrote:
Micky, think about this:
- Prog Metal is not remotely the most popular genre, but still has more combined reviews in two albums than any Symphonic or Art Rock band.
Are you kidding? any two progmetal albums have more reviews than Yes, Genesis, Rush or ELP albums?
Holy God, you know I'm talking about
Metropolis and Octavarium have more ratings combined than any other two
albums from band here if I'm not wrong.
But lets check this numbers choosing the two albums with more ratings by the most reviewed bands:
Reviews of:
Genesis
SEbtP.........415
Foxtrot.......295
TOTAL...........710
Yes
CttE........471
Relayer..269
TOTAL.....740
ELP
Trilogy.....110
BSS.........183
TOTAL......293
Dream Theater
Metropolis II.....387
Octavarium.......398
TOTAL...............785
I doubt there are bands with more ratings.
Iván
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Yeah, you're right with those two... though they're mostly fanboy ratings of kids passing by (SFAM has 110 reviews and CTTE has 186 reviews)
Edited by The Miracle - June 07 2006 at 01:01
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Dream Theater: the most popular under rated band.
