Time signatures

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Zoso wrote: Right, it's all about feeling the rhythm. Listen to "Money" by Pink Floyd, a song that's in 7/8. Tap your foot along with the bassline, and you'll see that there are 7 beats for every time through the phrase. It will be obvious once you do it.     Actually, it's 7/4. Simply count 1-2-3-4-1-2-3, or 1-2-1-2-1-2-3.

Edited by Moatilliatta - April 28 2006 at 16:36

Eloy - Decay of the logos is in 6/8 time, not 4/4 sorry...

8/4 is just the regular 4/4 rhytm. In 8-notes, it's 8/8

Moatilliatta wrote: Nobody seems to have read what I wrote about Money. It's clearly in a triplet meter. 12/8 followed by 9/8, or 21/8. I can see how it could just be 7/4, but the rhythm is based on triplets.

Certif1ed wrote: Normally 7/8 would be 2 and 1/3 beats to a bar, with a triplet swing

What has 7/8 got to do with triplet swing/shuffle feel? 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 ... sure (although 9/8 can also mean 2+2+2+3/8 or something like that). I mean ... it is possible that there are songs that work like 3+3+1/8, but I think that 2+2+2+1/8 is far more common.
    

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - May 11 2006 at 05:46

Certif1ed wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Certif1ed wrote: Normally 7/8 would be 2 and 1/3 beats to a bar, with a triplet swing What has 7/8 got to do with triplet swing/shuffle feel? 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 ... sure (although 9/8 can also mean 2+2+2+3/8 or something like that). I mean ... it is possible that there are songs that work like 3+3+1/8, but I think that 2+2+2+1/8 is far more common.           You obviously didn't read what I wrote - a common trait of yours, I've noticed. Compound time carries an implicit triplet swing - I said nothing about a shuffle feel.

Let's try not to make ironic stabs at each other, shall we?

BTW: I am reading what you write - and by saying "swing" you again say that compound time (*/8 in this context) is implying a ternary grouping.

Certif1ed wrote: The general rule that I have been taught (and you can argue with my teachers if you like, but it seems reasonable to me), is that anything over 8 is compound time, and anything over 4 is simple time. It's not as black and white as that, of course - but one of the points here is simplification for those who are not at an advanced level as you obviously are. Do you have a Ph.D. in music theory?

No, I don't havew a PH.D. in music theory. I just learned how to play music for almost 10 years and some of my teachers had the proper certificates. All I know is that only a very small percentage of 7/8 signatures that I have encountered implied a grouping of 3 (3+3+1/8). Most of them are 2+2+2+1/8 (4/4 - 1/8), or - if you prefer - 4+3/8.

Certif1ed wrote: 9/8 is more like 3/4 with triplets or soft syncopation - so "Apocalypse in 9/8" is not truly in 9/8 but 9/4, as has oft been discussed here. 2+2+2+3/8 is not the way that 9/8 is normally used, and would give a feel more of 9/4 than 9/8, since it becomes irregular time rather than compound time - as I described above.

9/8 is often used like you described. Especially in prog metal it is also often used as 4/4+1/8. That's a normal 4/4 signature with one additional quaver. The bass drum/snare clearly indicates in those cases that it's not at all 3+3+3/8.

Certif1ed wrote: If someone has written a piece that is scored like that, then it is written in ignorance of conventions - although it could be the odd bar written that way through necessity - I'm thinking of Stravinsky particularly, who occasionally threw in some oddball bars like this - and often even wierder ones like 3/16 - into a piece. In the same way, if there are 7 distinct beats to a bar - as you break down your perception of 7/8 - then by convention it should be 7/4 - that's what the time signature is there for. Otherwise it would be irregular compound time, and be counted in terms of fractions of beats, ie 2 and 1/3 beats per bar, and the 7 quaver notes per bar would be nothing to do with the metre, but a convenient way of putting loosely syncopated or triplet feel melodies across.      That is the difference between /4 and /8. Simple and Compound. Simple!

All I say is that /8 doesn't imply triplets! Don't make it all so complicated.

BTW: read one of the other threads about signatures where I explained in detail how I see the major difference between /8 and /4.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - May 11 2006 at 07:53

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Let's try not to make ironic stabs at each other, shall we?

Hardly an ironic stab - just the truth. You often misread what I write - presumably through skim-reading. I've done it myself a bit recently - but have owned up to it.

It seems to be generalisations that you have an issue with, because in order to simplify everything above, I had to make some generalisations - as I thought I made fairly clear.

There is nothing incorrect in what I posted - so I don't see why you feel you need to correct it.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: BTW: I am reading what you write - and by saying "swing" you again say that compound time (*/8 in this context) is implying a ternary grouping

That's because I did say that and it does. I also said it wasn't as simple as that (I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you'd read it, would I?), but for a simple illustration of the basics, it can be safely be taken as the general rule.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: No, I don't havew a PH.D. in music theory. I just learned how to play music for almost 10 years and some of my teachers had the proper certificates. All I know is that only a very small percentage of 7/8 signatures that I have encountered implied a grouping of 3 (3+3+1/8). Most of them are 2+2+2+1/8 (4/4 - 1/8), or - if you prefer - 4+3/8.

It looks like 3 groups of 2 and a 1 the way you've laid it out - in which case that would be a simple 7 with alternate accents.

Alternatively, if 4+3/8, why not 4+3/4? What's the difference?

Simple = anything/4, hence it's 7/4 - like Money.

It's not a compound irregular rhythm like 2 and 1/3 beats to the bar - it's a simple irregular rhythm.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: 9/8 is often used like you described. Especially in prog metal it is also often used as 4/4+1/8. That's a normal 4/4 signature with one additional quaver. The bass drum/snare clearly indicates in those cases that it's not at all 3+3+3/8.

That seems more a more reasonable useage,on the surface, but again, it's not the convention - or maybe it has become a convention among Prog Metal bands.

There seems little point - are we considering beats, pulse or metre? This seems to be overlooked.

Really what's happening there is 9/4 with accents.

There's no compound feel, so putting it over 8 is pointless. The whole point of putting anything over 8 is to use compound time... although it's not quite that straightforward.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: All I say is that /8 doesn't imply triplets! Don't make it all so complicated

Complicated?

I made an over-simplification - surely you can see that?
(That's the 3rd time I've said that - I hope you get it this time!).

MikeEnRegalia wrote: read one of the other threads about signatures where I explained in detail how I see the major difference between /8 and /4.

I will, as soon as I can get around to it.
        

CAN ANYONE ANSWER WHICH TIME SIGNATURE "DANCE ON A VULCANO" BY GENESIS IS????

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Let's approach this from a different angle. Can you give me an example (a real song) for 3+3+1/8? I have yet to hear one (I think).

There are plenty of parts in Stravinsy's "Rite of Spring" - for example, 2 bars after [43] in "Ritual of Abduction", where he uses 7/8 (3+4/8) - which is close enough to answering your question.

He also uses 2+2+2+1/8 (with 3 crotchet beats - underlining the use of 7/8 as compound, not simple time - which is the point here). Since the alternate quavers are weak - Stravinsky goes as far as to accent the first, 3rd and 5th, the feel of 3 (triple) crotchet beats is emphasised, while the last quaver is not accented and is weak, giving the feel of 2+2+3/8 - in other words, compound time.

Stravinsky illustrates 7/4 in the bar before [107] in "Glorification of the Chosen One", where 7 crotchet beats are used in simple irregular time - although Stravinsy complicates matters by syncopating them, so that the main beat is on the off-beat.

Conveniently, in the same piece, two bars before [106], Stravinsky uses 4+3/8, where the main beats are 1, 3 and 5 - effectively making 2+2+3/8.

These illustrations from the master of rhythm should suffice to show that 7/8 is used for compound irregular time and 7/4 for simple irregular time.

As I keep saying, this is convention, and the reason for this convention is simply that it's a bit pointless to use 7/8 if you're simply going to count 7 (or even 2+2+3) - you reduce the number of notes you can subdivide by, for a start!

You'd only rationally want to use it if you need to take advantage of the compound produced by dotted crotchet time, rather than the compound produced by crotchet time.


Genesis illustrate this nicely in "Dance on a Volcano", whose introduction roams through several time signatures; 4/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 3/4, 7/8 (showing the 3+2+2 compound movement for 3 bars), then, after a quick bar in 3/4, continuing in 7/8 for most of the piece, with a 2+2+2+1 movement used frequently (e.g. from 25-27 specifically).

Most of this piece is in 7/8 - but, as with the introduction, the other musical interludes pass through other Time signatures - so a good ear is recommended (or a Tab!).

I hope this helps.
    

Edited by Certif1ed - May 14 2006 at 16:38

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I'm suggesting a 4+3/8 or 3+4/8 interpretation all the time ... it was you who suggested triplet/swing. Let's not continue this ... I'll continue to listen to 4/4-1/8 or 4/4+1/8, and you won't (probably).

    

Indeed.

I don't understand why you don't see the triplet nature of it - it's two triplets with a note spare (6/8+1/8), or one of the triplets extended by a note, or even three triplets minus a note with a note spare - unless used contextually in a /4 time piece. But the "triplets" are almost inevitably there.

The whole feel of dotted crotchet time is different to crotchet beats, which is why I say counting the melody notes is not very useful for determining the time signature.

But you do it your way - I've already passed my Aural tests using my methods.



Edited by Certif1ed - May 15 2006 at 03:09