Time signatures
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Topic: Time signatures
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Subject: Time signatures
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 15:49
Can anybody enlighten me in this matter? How can you tell that the song is e. g. in 13/8? 
(To admins: I'm not sure in which section to post it. Move it if you have to.) Sorry for my ignorance  ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Replies:
Posted By: Zoso
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 16:00
Count. 
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Posted By: Tasartir
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 16:11
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Hmm, this is quite a complicated question. My drummer back in Chile taught me. He always told me that you have to "feel" the music, "feel" the rhythm, and after I realized how to know what time signature each song is in I understood what he meant by "feel" the music. Basically what you have to do is count notes, start real easy with something that's obviously in 4/4, some Jamiroquai maybe, or most stuff that's commercial nowadays. Just count as the music goes by...1.2.3.4...1.2.3.4. It's like a clock 1.2.3.4. Then find something that's in 3/4, try to find it by yourself, something that you might dance a Waltz to, something that makes you sway...like Neal Morse's "Outside Looking In" or A Perfect Circle's "Judith" or Tool's "Push*t" or Yes' "We Have Heaven" (that's a pretty clear one). I don't know, just count how many beats you hear in between the accentuation of the drums. The drummer has to accentuate certain notes so you'll hear big beat and then a couple of lower sounding beats then another big beat and that second big beat will mark the start of the next stanza so you'll start counting again. 3/4 : Big beat =1 Small Beat = 2 Small Beat = 2 Big beat = 1 again and repeat. I really hope this helps because it helped me a lot with my guitar, I have a better understanding of musice now...and all thanks to my drummer. Thanks Jonathan if you're reading this, you taught me a lot... |
Posted By: Tasartir
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 16:18
| Oops I messed up, Small beat number two should be labelled 3, but I guess you get it. |
Posted By: Catholic Flame
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 16:25
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6/8 has the pulse of a slow 2. 12/8 would be the pulse of a slow 4. 13/8 would be the slow 4 plus the extra 13. It's called a compound rhythm because the beats cannot be divided into two. There are three going across each of the pulses. Plus the 13th throws in more complexity. ------------- “Great things are not accomplished by those who yield to trends and fads and popular opinion.” ~Jack Kerouac |
Posted By: Zoso
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 16:29
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Right, it's all about feeling the rhythm. Listen to "Money" by Pink Floyd, a song that's in 7/8. Tap your foot along with the bassline, and you'll see that there are 7 beats for every time through the phrase. It will be obvious once you do it. Now for something harder. Listen to the opening riff in YYZ by Rush, and see if you can pick out how it's in 5/4. It's not as obvious as in Money, but it's there. When you hear something funny, try to just break it down and tap your foot along with it, counting how many beats are in each phrase. ------------- |
Posted By: Rust
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 16:30
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3/4 = The three means that the song has three beats per measure. Once those three beats are done, then your in a new measure, and you count to three agian. If the song is in 3/8 then that means each measure is three beats long. The eight means that you count it twice as fast as you would in 3/4 time, since 8 is twice that of 4. The eight meaning that the eighth note gets counted three times. All music consists of measure and all measures are a certain amount of time, usually in incriments of 4. If the amount of time that a measure is,(the bottom of a time signature), is 16 then that usually means you would count the measure quickly, in this case 4 times as fast as a song conducted in 3/4. Siberian Khatru is played in the time of, 15/16, meaning that the song is obviously fast, (16), and that the song is counted in incriments of 15, (15), and so you have the time of 15/16. Confused?
------------- We got to pump the stuff to make us tough from the heart Its astart What we need is awareness we cant get careless Mental self defensive fitness Make everybody see in order to fight the powers that be |
Posted By: Duncan
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 16:46
Yeah, and 9/8 divides into a slow 3. Exactly like Apocalypse in 9/8 doesn't. |
Catholic Flame wrote:Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 16:52
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Money has a triplet feel. It is one measure of 12/8 followed by one measure of 9/8, or 21/8. You can tap the triplets between the beats easier than doing 16th notes.
Right, time signatures can be divided in multiple ways. 9/8, for example can be played like 3 triplets, or as a measure of 4/4 with an extra 8th note thrown in (or a 5/4 missing an 8th note). ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph  
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Posted By: Catholic Flame
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 20:26
I'm talking the pulse, not the beat. It does divide into 3. ------------- “Great things are not accomplished by those who yield to trends and fads and popular opinion.” ~Jack Kerouac |
Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 20:29
but Apocalypse almost sounds as if its not in 9/8, I think thats why its in the title because they did such a good job at 9/8 it sounds so right you wouldn't think its in 9/8 ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: Scrambled_Eggs
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 20:38
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Actually, I think the time signature for "Money" is in 7/4 not 7/8. At least that's what I 'ear. Does anyone know for sure? ------------- And I am not frightened of dying, any time will do, I don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There's no reason for it, you've gotta go sometime. I never said I was frightened of dying. |
Posted By: Duncan
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 20:41
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Sorry, that Apocalypse... comment was in jest. It's just an odd example of 9/8 as far as I'm aware, because it lacks that compound ONEtwothreeTWOtwothreeTHREEtwothree beat. And Genesis just had to put the time signature in the title anyhow. |
Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 20:57
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Read my post:
It is more like 7/4 than 7/8 though, because it's basically a 7/4 only with triplets. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 21:54
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(I tell you as a musician) For example, we take this: 6/4 6 represents the number of times the time signature is repeated. 4 represents the time signature ( for example these ones Hope you understand it |
, I really don't know how are they called in english 
-remember, I talk spanish-).Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: April 17 2006 at 22:45
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Interesting comments by all. All I'm going to say is that I honestly don't care what the time signature is; I don't care what key the song is in; and I most certainly don't care how difficult it is for the musician to play; all I care about is how good it sounds and how it affects me, the listener. Nothing else matters. Now if switching rapidly from 13/8 to 7/4 to 3/8 to 5/4 and playing in the keys of Fsharp7 and Dsharp7 (those are keys, right?) makes the song sound better, than go right ahead. However, I think that too many people here on PA overanalyze the music to find things that really aren't important, because for some reason it's important to them that the musician kill himself playing this song correctly. BTW, I'm not insulting anyone who responded to this thread; I'm talking about other things that I have seen here on PA. |
Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: April 18 2006 at 02:16
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Its amazing how difficult some of the responses sound. Its really a simple concept. the bottom number indicates which type of note gets the beat the top indicates how many of those notes per measure. 4/4 quater note gets the beat and 4 quater notes per measure so simple ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: Thyme Traveler
Date Posted: April 18 2006 at 02:42
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Sometimes it isn't that simple. You're really talking about two different things- how the music "feels" and how it is notated- and sometimes the two aren't always the same. And often there is more than one way to notate a song which works. I once wrote a song which "felt" like 4/4 time, but ended up having way too many ties to the next measure to properly notate it in 4/4 so I wrote the arrangement as 12/8 time even though in my mind, it still seemed like a simple 4/4 song. ------------- Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions. What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum. |
Posted By: Tasartir
Date Posted: April 18 2006 at 09:25
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Oh and listen to Fandango by Pain of Salvation, that seems to be in 5/4, very interesting. Also "A Trace of Blood" by Pain of Salvation as well, that's in 7/4. But if you're looking for really messed up time signatures listen to TOOL specially "The Grudge" and "AEnima" which is kind of freaky at the end. If you want more of a challange try King Crimson, they're masters at it, just listen to "21st Century Schizoid Man" and try to find out the time signature there and then work your way into their stuff that way, you'll be surprised at how many things you can do with a simple rhythm. |
Posted By: BiGi
Date Posted: April 18 2006 at 09:46
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I'm listening to IQ's Dark Matter...it's amazing how they make a "simple" 6/8 sound so weird...
I'm referring to Born Brilliant and the section of Harvest of Souls that starts at 17'49" (the rhythm pattern is identical) On the other hand, the central section of Genesis' Mad Man Moon is in 7/8, but it goes so natural that you hardly notice it. Ditto with Living in the Past by Jethro Tull (5/4). Another outstanding example of weird (and mixed) time signatures is the first section of Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells (the one whose revisitation on Tubular Bells II has been named Sentinel): it is a combination of 9/8 and 7/8. And also Goblin's most famous theme (at least in Italy) Profondo Rosso shifts continuously from 7/8 to 8/8. ------------- A flower? 
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: April 18 2006 at 13:48
| This is probably a silly question, but is 6/8 the same as 3/4 and 10/8 the same as 5/4 or is there a difference? |
Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: April 18 2006 at 16:42
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no because in 6/8 the eighth note gets the beat and there are 6 per measure, in 3/4 the quarter note gets the beat and there are 3 per measure. They sound pretty much identical and may even look the same written out, but different songs require different signatures. Usually 6/8 is used for faster songs it makes it easier to follow I think. ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 00:00
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Mathematically it'd be the same but the tempo is different, so the time signature is different. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 05:53
Thanks, I think I got it. But what if there is 1 quarter note and 4 eighth notes, is it 6/8? |
Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: April 19 2006 at 18:23
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it could be in 6/8 because an eighth is half of a quarter. ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: Igha
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 05:49
Very interesting thread! Im learning somethings about music theory 
Can you throw me more light on the relation between tempo and signature? Is it possbile to slightly variate the tempo of a song without altering the signature? I think bands some times do this when they play live. ------------- My words are spiders upon the page,they spin out faith, hope and reason but are they meet and just, or only dust gathering about my chair? |
Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: April 20 2006 at 16:51
I'm not 100% sure, but what I remember from high school music, it just made it easier to be in 6/8 with a faster tempo than it would 3/4 but wasn't entirely necessary. Anyone got a good explanation? ------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa |
Posted By: UnknownFlow
Date Posted: April 25 2006 at 16:15
6/8 and 3/4 are different. in 6/8 you basically feel the pulse on beats 1 and 4 so you would count with accents: ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six. In 3/4 there is a pulse only on the first beat of the bar each time and on no other beat, so it's genrally faster, but not all the time. All waltzes are in 3/4. As for tempo in relation to the time signature, I think they are both completely different and are inter changable, except it's easier to change time signature as a band if the beats are the same speed. And it's not very easy to change tempo immediatly as a band you'd have to have some way of counting in, say if you had a brak and got brung back in by the drummer or something. But i'm sure it's possible if you knew the parts well enough and were tight enough as a band. Also another question: whats the hardest time signature anyones come across or is using in their band? My band is currently working on a Gentle Giant/Dream Theater style instrumental with some crazy time signatures. The longest time signature we're using at the moment is 31/16 and i found that easy because i just wrote it down on a piece of paper and learnt it. It's hard to do fills with that however but i don't think there is space for them due to the insane guitar riffs which is lucky. |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: April 26 2006 at 12:39
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Some Wicked Rhytms: African music in 6/8
Led Zeppelin's "The Ocean" opening riff 7/8
Led Zeppelin's "The Crunge" 4,5/4 or maybe 12/16
Pink Floyd - Money 7/8
Yes - 3-4 mins into "Close To The Edge" 6/8
Eloy - 4 mins into "Decay Of The Logos" just 4/4, 8/8 or 16/16... but mans what a rhytm!
  Led Zeppelin - Opening bars of "Four Sticks" 5/8
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Posted By: TheLamb
Date Posted: April 26 2006 at 12:46
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I couldn't bother to read the whole thread so Im sorry if someone already worte this but: Time signatures don't always divide into an equal amount of beats. For instance; My band has a piece which is partially in 15/8, but But it does not divide symmetrically into 5:5:5, because it has a "polly-rythm" that makes it "divide" into a 6:3:3:3 (beats 1, 7, 10, and 13 are "emphasized")... So to those who said 9/8 always divides into 3:3:3, your utterly wrong! I'm very sorry if I didn't explain this properrly I have no idea how to explain music concepts and stuff in english..... I hope you understood what I was on about... I'm pretty sure some of the words I used are not even related to music in your language...  ------------- 
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Posted By: TheLamb
Date Posted: April 26 2006 at 13:12
a few more wicked rythms, a bit more complex - these are the really brain killers:
Birds of Fire - Mahavishnu Orchestra - 18/8 (Guitar plays 5+5+5+3, and drums and violin make mind blowing polly rythms all over the place)
Hell's Bell's - Bill Bruford - 19/16 (Interesting piece...)
The Crimson Sunrise (ACOS) - Dream Theater - 19/8 (Difficult to count but it's definitly 19/8, theres no other way to think of it)
2116 - Planet X - 21/16 (one of the more pretentious pieces I've ever listened to....) -------------
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Posted By: UnknownFlow
Date Posted: April 26 2006 at 14:53
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Some Time Signatures that I think sound pretty cool without being over complex or not complex enough. Watcher Of The Skies - Genesis - 6/4 that sounds bloody cool Gentle Giant - Pantagruels Nativity (one of the sections) - 11/4 Turn it On Again - Genesis - 13/8 Jacob's Ladder - Rush - numerous time signatures including - 11/8 and 13/16 adn I'm not sure if this is right but I reckon the intro to Changes by Yes in in 9/4. |
Posted By: UnknownFlow
Date Posted: April 26 2006 at 14:55
| Yeah my band also has a section in where the guitarists are playing 3 bars of 5/8 and i'm playing 5 bars of 3/8 so it could also be described as 1 bar of 15/8. |
Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: April 26 2006 at 15:11
Do you go back in time when you play that section? ------------- Pure Brilliance: 
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: April 27 2006 at 13:12
WHOA!!! now thats wierd
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Posted By: Royalist
Date Posted: April 27 2006 at 17:31
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I'd say: 2/4 means that a BAR includes a strong beat and a weak one: ONE two or > _ . -3/4 means strong,weak, weak ONE two three ( > _ _ ) > strong > less strong _ weak The 1st beat is called downbeat and is usually the hardest one. Other ones can also be graduated in strength but no so stressed as the first. 4/4 is usually > _ > _ The beats don't need to be single notes. 3/4 can be > > _ _ _ _ (ONE TWO three four five six). But a sequence of > _ _ > _ _ would be 6/8. All beats are equal in duration but can be split into any number of smaller parts: 3/4 = 1 . 1 . 1 . 1 . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 .................... Another kind of 6/8 can be > _ > _ > _ or just > _ _ _ _ _. There are no strict rules. 7/8 can be >_ _ > _ > _. It's not always so simple. We can find meters like > > _ _ _ . It's not practical to say "(2 and a half)/4" so we can say 5/4. In this situation an actual beat consists of 2 or 3 units. Meter can be constant or changing every 5 seconds or br different in every next bar. >>_ _ _ _ > _> _ _ >> _ _ = 3 bars 3/4 + 5/8 + 2/4 A lot of music has random accents everywhere (not only on downbeat) . Sometimes it's difficult or impossible to tell the time signature. So 13/8 is like counting 1 -13 where 1 is strong and the others either weak or "a little strong" . Example: > _ _ > _ _ > _ _ >_ > _ . Maybe we're talking about something like > > > _ _ _ > > > _ _ _ _. , like a bar of 4/4 divided into 12 notes with an extra one. There is no difference between "Money in 7/8" and "Money in 7/4". No one knows if a note is a half note or an 8-note. Money is 7/4, 120 bpm = 7/2, 240 bpm = 7/8, 60 bpm. Bpm value tells how many notes (4-notes) there are in a minute. If _ stands for 8-note, _ _ creates a 4-note but I can decide that _ is a 16- note or whole note etc. The most popular drum pattern of 4/4 is 1. um 2. TSH 3. um 4. TSH find in lots of rock, pop, hiphop etc. As you can see 2 and 4 are stronger here (played on snare drum). It is easy to count. You can tap your fingers against your desk like > _ _ > _ _ > _ _ > _ _ and a lot of music follows it (3/4 or 6/8, it has a feel of "swaying". "We are the champions" is in 6/8). try to count and you'll see how it works. Just practice. Many people here go crazy about meters. They say that 4/4, 3/8 , 6/8 are "common", "simple", and 7, 9, 13, 5 are odd, complex ...They claim that 11/8 is difficult to play just because it is 11/8  . Musicians who play such things gain respect of "virtuosos". Is is wrong!!! Gripping a guitar chord and counting 1 to 17 is easy! 4/4 things can be very difficult!! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 27 2006 at 18:02
Actually, it's 7/4. Simply count 1-2-3-4-1-2-3, or 1-2-1-2-1-2-3.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Royalist
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 02:04
3/4= 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 one beat of 3 is much stronger 6/4= 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 one beat of 6 is much stronger 3/8 and 6/8 in the same tempo are 2x faster. 3/8 in tempo 100 = 3/4 in tempo 200. 10 8-notes notes in 5/4 can sound > > _ _ > > _ _ _ _ In 10/8 > _ _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ or > _ _ > _ _ > _ > _ etc. |
Posted By: Royalist
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 02:23
1 2 3 | | | | | 3/4 1 2 3 4 5 6 | | | | | 6/8 - extra accent. Hardly any difference. Notes lasting longer than the denominator make it much harder. 1 2 3 | | | | | 3/4 1 2 3 4 5 6 | | | | | 6/8 -now a clearer difference. 1 2 3 | | | | | 3/4 1 2 3 4 5 6 | | | | | 6/8 - syncopa. A "wrong" note is accentuated because it "covers" the stronger beat. Sometimes it's hard to guess which is correct. I think musicians don't waste time for such stupid things. They just play. |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 09:52
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6/8 can just be like 2 bars in 3/4... some people mix that together...
but it's wrong... 6/8 is more like 4/4 with 2 extra beats
(at least in african music)
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 16:32
Which part of The Crimson Sunrise are you talking about?
And I consider Birds fo Fire a 9/8 piece. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: April 28 2006 at 16:35
Nobody seems to have read what I wrote about Money. It's clearly in a triplet meter. 12/8 followed by 9/8, or 21/8. I can see how it could just be 7/4, but the rhythm is based on triplets. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: UnknownFlow
Date Posted: May 01 2006 at 04:22
| Up to a certain degree of restriction, the composer can techincally decide what time signature his music is in, for example 7/4, 7/8, or 7/16 |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 08 2006 at 02:16
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Eloy - Decay of the logos is in 6/8 time, not 4/4 sorry... Can you help me? which time signature is "Dance on a vulcano" by GENESIS???
i just couldn't count
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Posted By: Proghat
Date Posted: May 08 2006 at 15:19
| Alright, so I'm kinda confused on this matter too -- for example, the main riff in "Red" by KC that starts at 00:28 would be in 8/4 right? Or am I doing this wrong? I've never truly understood how to do this, but I've always had a very basic idea of what to do. |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 02:08
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8/4 is just the regular 4/4 rhytm. In 8-notes, it's 8/8
do you get it?
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Posted By: Reverie
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 02:21
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Yeah one bar of 8/4 is two bars of 4/4. I can see why you would say it's in 8/4, and really it could be written as 8/4 without a problem, but i personally would call it 4/4. It makes no audible difference at all, it would really only change how you count the riff. Instead of counting to 4 and starting again in the next bar (1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4), you'd count to 8 (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8). I'd be more inclined to use 8/4 if there was a riff that fit snuggly into that time frame and for some reason i prefered to lock it into one bar. Also if the surrounding time sigs were all */8 (something/8) i might find it more pleasing to use 8/4 rather than two bars of 4/4 but i don't think that's ever come up. It's kind of weird because i have no problem using 12/8 (as opposed to two bars of 6/8), yet i'm not sure i've ever used 8/4. I hope i'm not confusing you even more Proghat
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 03:15
It's not uncommon to not triplet (shuffle) rhythms in plain meters (e.g. 12/8 -> 4/4) and then to define straight 8ths as shuffle feel 8ths:
1 + + 2 + + 3 + + 4 + +
becomes
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 05:27
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Minim time is rarely used these days, so we can pretty much ignore it. It has a slow pulse.
Crotchet time, or Simple time is more common, and is anything over 4. Quaver time is most often used as Compound time - indeed, the way I was taught, that is the reason for using Quaver time. It's compound, because although the top number represents the number of quavers to a bar, the beat is actually dotted crotchets - which gives a triplet swing to the music. Compare a Strauss Waltz with the last movement of Beethoven's 6th symphony to get the idea. There are 7 beats to a bar in Money, therefore it's 7/4. Waters himself has described the piece in that way. Normally 7/8 would be 2 and 1/3 beats to a bar, with a triplet swing - as I described in compound time. Time signatures like this, and 5/4, etc, are known as irregular time signatures. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 05:32
 What has 7/8 got to do with triplet swing/shuffle feel? 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 ... sure (although 9/8 can also mean 2+2+2+3/8 or something like that). I mean ... it is possible that there are songs that work like 3+3+1/8, but I think that 2+2+2+1/8 is far more common.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 07:37
You obviously didn't read what I wrote - a common trait of yours, I've noticed. Compound time carries an implicit triplet swing - I said nothing about a shuffle feel. The general rule that I have been taught (and you can argue with my teachers if you like, but it seems reasonable to me), is that anything over 8 is compound time, and anything over 4 is simple time. It's not as black and white as that, of course - but one of the points here is simplification for those who are not at an advanced level as you obviously are. Do you have a Ph.D. in music theory? 9/8 is more like 3/4 with triplets or soft syncopation - so "Apocalypse in 9/8" is not truly in 9/8 but 9/4, as has oft been discussed here. 2+2+2+3/8 is not the way that 9/8 is normally used, and would give a feel more of 9/4 than 9/8, since it becomes irregular time rather than compound time - as I described above. If someone has written a piece that is scored like that, then it is written in ignorance of conventions - although it could be the odd bar written that way through necessity - I'm thinking of Stravinsky particularly, who occasionally threw in some oddball bars like this - and often even wierder ones like 3/16 - into a piece. In the same way, if there are 7 distinct beats to a bar - as you break down your perception of 7/8 - then by convention it should be 7/4 - that's what the time signature is there for. Otherwise it would be irregular compound time, and be counted in terms of fractions of beats, ie 2 and 1/3 beats per bar, and the 7 quaver notes per bar would be nothing to do with the metre, but a convenient way of putting loosely syncopated or triplet feel melodies across. That is the difference between /4 and /8. Simple and Compound. Simple! ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 07:52
Let's try not to make ironic stabs at each other, shall we? BTW: I am reading what you write - and by saying "swing" you again say that compound time (*/8 in this context) is implying a ternary grouping.
No, I don't havew a PH.D. in music theory. I just learned how to play music for almost 10 years and some of my teachers had the proper certificates. All I know is that only a very small percentage of 7/8 signatures that I have encountered implied a grouping of 3 (3+3+1/8). Most of them are 2+2+2+1/8 (4/4 - 1/8), or - if you prefer - 4+3/8.
9/8 is often used like you described. Especially in prog metal it is also often used as 4/4+1/8. That's a normal 4/4 signature with one additional quaver. The bass drum/snare clearly indicates in those cases that it's not at all 3+3+3/8.
All I say is that /8 doesn't imply triplets! Don't make it all so complicated. BTW: read one of the other threads about signatures where I explained in detail how I see the major difference between /8 and /4. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Proghat
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 15:11
No, I think I know what you guys are saying. Thanks a lot! It's probably just gonna take some practice before I'm able to pick-out time sigs really easily. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 17:16
Hardly an ironic stab - just the truth. You often misread what I write - presumably through skim-reading. I've done it myself a bit recently - but have owned up to it. It seems to be generalisations that you have an issue with, because in order to simplify everything above, I had to make some generalisations - as I thought I made fairly clear. There is nothing incorrect in what I posted - so I don't see why you feel you need to correct it.
That's because I did say that and it does. I also said it wasn't as simple as that (I wouldn't have to repeat myself if you'd read it, would I?), but for a simple illustration of the basics, it can be safely be taken as the general rule.
It looks like 3 groups of 2 and a 1 the way you've laid it out - in which case that would be a simple 7 with alternate accents. Alternatively, if 4+3/8, why not 4+3/4? What's the difference? Simple = anything/4, hence it's 7/4 - like Money. It's not a compound irregular rhythm like 2 and 1/3 beats to the bar - it's a simple irregular rhythm.
That seems more a more reasonable useage,on the surface, but again, it's not the convention - or maybe it has become a convention among Prog Metal bands. There seems little point - are we considering beats, pulse or metre? This seems to be overlooked. Really what's happening there is 9/4 with accents. There's no compound feel, so putting it over 8 is pointless. The whole point of putting anything over 8 is to use compound time... although it's not quite that straightforward.
Complicated? I made an over-simplification - surely you can see that? (That's the 3rd time I've said that - I hope you get it this time!).
I will, as soon as I can get around to it.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 18:07
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Let's approach this from a different angle. Can you give me an example (a real song) for 3+3+1/8? I have yet to hear one (I think). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 10:03
| CAN ANYONE ANSWER WHICH TIME SIGNATURE "DANCE ON A VULCANO" BY GENESIS IS???? |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 16:14
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Er, I double posted somehow... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 16:32
There are plenty of parts in Stravinsy's "Rite of Spring" - for example, 2 bars after [43] in "Ritual of Abduction", where he uses 7/8 (3+4/8) - which is close enough to answering your question. He also uses 2+2+2+1/8 (with 3 crotchet beats - underlining the use of 7/8 as compound, not simple time - which is the point here). Since the alternate quavers are weak - Stravinsky goes as far as to accent the first, 3rd and 5th, the feel of 3 (triple) crotchet beats is emphasised, while the last quaver is not accented and is weak, giving the feel of 2+2+3/8 - in other words, compound time. Stravinsky illustrates 7/4 in the bar before [107] in "Glorification of the Chosen One", where 7 crotchet beats are used in simple irregular time - although Stravinsy complicates matters by syncopating them, so that the main beat is on the off-beat. Conveniently, in the same piece, two bars before [106], Stravinsky uses 4+3/8, where the main beats are 1, 3 and 5 - effectively making 2+2+3/8. These illustrations from the master of rhythm should suffice to show that 7/8 is used for compound irregular time and 7/4 for simple irregular time. As I keep saying, this is convention, and the reason for this convention is simply that it's a bit pointless to use 7/8 if you're simply going to count 7 (or even 2+2+3) - you reduce the number of notes you can subdivide by, for a start! You'd only rationally want to use it if you need to take advantage of the compound produced by dotted crotchet time, rather than the compound produced by crotchet time. Genesis illustrate this nicely in "Dance on a Volcano", whose introduction roams through several time signatures; 4/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 3/4, 7/8 (showing the 3+2+2 compound movement for 3 bars), then, after a quick bar in 3/4, continuing in 7/8 for most of the piece, with a 2+2+2+1 movement used frequently (e.g. from 25-27 specifically). Most of this piece is in 7/8 - but, as with the introduction, the other musical interludes pass through other Time signatures - so a good ear is recommended (or a Tab!). I hope this helps. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 17:53
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^ I'm suggesting a 4+3/8 or 3+4/8 interpretation all the time ... it was you who suggested triplet/swing.
Let's not continue this ... I'll continue to listen to 4/4-1/8 or 4/4+1/8, and you won't (probably). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 02:54
Indeed. I don't understand why you don't see the triplet nature of it - it's two triplets with a note spare (6/8+1/8), or one of the triplets extended by a note, or even three triplets minus a note with a note spare - unless used contextually in a /4 time piece. But the "triplets" are almost inevitably there. The whole feel of dotted crotchet time is different to crotchet beats, which is why I say counting the melody notes is not very useful for determining the time signature. But you do it your way - I've already passed my Aural tests using my methods.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 03:31
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I don't "count melody notes", I rather try to analyze the rhythm:
In Money the bass drum and snare drum clearly show that the 7/4 rhythm is 4/4 + 4/4-1/4. The last crotchet of the second beat is simply left out. In The Sound of Muzak the 7/8 is far more complex ... 3+3+3+3+2/8 feels most suitable for me (that's the verse, the chorus is simply 3+3+2/8) - so it's really 14/8. But I'd still like to hear an example where it makes sense to count 3+3+1/8 ... I just can't think of any! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 12:05
I have headdaches 
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 17:28
The Sound of Muzak is essentially 7/4. in the verse. The drums just play a somewhat off beat rhythm.
The only one of the top of my head to answer your question at the end there is a short excerpt from Coheed and Cambria's "The Crowing." I'll look for the times later, but they are playing 6/8 to 7/8 a few times and they do the 7/8 like that. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 17:42
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^ I agree that it makes sense to count Sound of Muzak as 7/4, considering the bass drum / snare rhythm - the hihat beats also suggest crotchets.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 19:36
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The part I mentioned in "The Crowing" is at about 3:13. http://www.purevolume.com/coheedandcambria - http://www.purevolume.com/coheedandcambria has the mp3 available. I think it's what you're looking for. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 02:41
| i've listened to a modern prog metal song that was in like 26/32... impossible to count |
Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 13:22
And what song would that be? ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 13:54
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^ any chance that it might "just" be 13/16?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 13:58
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maybe... i still couldn't count... not sure of the time signature...
might alo have been 14/16 or 15/16... perhaps something even wierder like 24/32...
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 18 2006 at 14:14
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24/32 = 12/16 = 6/8 = 3/4 (unless there's odd grouping, like 13+11/32 or 7+5/16)
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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